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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Reformer on Sun May 10, 2020 - 11:17:55

Title: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Sun May 10, 2020 - 11:17:55
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Adam’s Fall & One of The
Evil Results

    Perhaps the best way to introduce this topic is to share a letter I received from one of my avid readers of my Reformation Rumblings column.
______
 
    “Buff,  I have had contact with a friend of mine via conversation the last couple of days. I haven’t spoken to him since 1997. He and I were heavily into drugs in our younger years. He straightened himself out while I hadn’t, and we lost contact with each other. Now I’m a Christian believer, and he drops this bombshell on me by saying, ‘I’m gay.’ 
 
    “I’ve always believed homosexuality was learned behavior. I love this guy as a dear friend. We poured our hearts out to each other the other night. He didn’t want to face me because he felt he couldn’t tell me, as he knows how I feel about homosexual behavior. I told him I love him and even though I can’t condone what he does, I won’t turn my back on him.
 
    “I don’t know what my role is going to be in this relationship. I just feel like he needs a real friend, and I hope I can minister to him, some way. Do you believe people can be born that way—that there is some kind of chemical makeup in their personalities that causes them to be that way? Is there nothing they can do about it? I’m starting to lean toward that theory. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. If you decide to print this, please don’t use my name.”

______
 
   You are doing the right thing by loving and ministering to your friend in spite of his controversial and debatable lifestyle. Homosexuals and lesbians need Jesus as much as voyeurs, exhibitionists, those who practice bestiality, child molesters, adulterers, liars, and idolaters. So, yes, please try to reach him with the saving message of Jesus. 
 
    As to the possibility that a biological or mental deformity at birth placed his sexual inclinations more toward the masculine gender than toward the feminine gender, I won’t argue the point. We do know that many people were “disfigured” at birth in various ways—not because God “created” them that way, but because of Adam’s Fall in the Garden of Eden. So, yes, it is possible to be sexually impaired at birth—in mind or in body, or both. However, place the blame on wicked Satan, not on a righteous and merciful God

    In your friend’s case, I entertain doubts of his being “sexually impaired” at birth. I think his lifestyle might have contributed heavily to his decision to sanction and practice a perverted form of sex. If I am correct, and I’m only shooting in the dark at this point, his homosexual behavior has been learned and, as you suggested, what is learned can be unlearned. 
 
    You and I know the vast majority of homosexuals were not born that way, just as voyeurs and exhibitionists and child molesters were not born that way. They have adopted their lifestyle because, as God said, “Every inclination of the thoughts of his [man’s] heart was only evil all the time” [Gen. 6:5-6]. So be careful, lest you be convinced by your friend that all homosexuals are “born that way.”
 
    We ought not forget Sodom and Gomorrah. God wiped those sexually perverted cities off the face of earth [Gen. 19]. This historical event gives us a good mental picture of how our Lord feels about one of the results of Adam’s Fall—namely, homosexuality.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Mon May 11, 2020 - 05:45:04
You seriously want to blame homosexuality on Adam?  I suppose then that you blame Adam for all of your own sins.  That is convenient.  Wrong of course yet convenient.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Mon May 11, 2020 - 05:54:42
So be careful, lest you be convinced by your friend that all homosexuals are “born that way.”
Are heterosexuals "born that way"?  Are polygamists "born that way"?  Are alcoholics "born that way"? Are liars "born that way"?

It doesn't matter that anyone is "born that way".  The whole point is not "what or who we are"; rather it is "what we choose to do".
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Mon May 11, 2020 - 06:17:31
You seriously want to blame homosexuality on Adam?  I suppose then that you blame Adam for all of your own sins.  That is convenient.  Wrong of course yet convenient.

If you read Romans 1, it says homosexuality is a byproduct of living in a fallen world. So at least on some level, I think Buff is correct. As to being "born that way," that is probably correct in some cases - especially where the baby in utero could be inhabited by a demon.

In a sense, all sin, sickness of body and mind, and even some of the laws of physics (like the 3rd law of thermodynamics) are a result of Adam's sin.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Mon May 11, 2020 - 06:19:10
Are heterosexuals "born that way"?  Are polygamists "born that way"?  Are alcoholics "born that way"? Are liars "born that way"?
It doesn't matter that anyone is "born that way".  The whole point is not "what or who we are"; rather it is "what we choose to do".
All sinners are "born that way."
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Mon May 11, 2020 - 07:16:40
If you read Romans 1, it says homosexuality is a byproduct of living in a fallen world.
Sin is not a byproduct of a fallen world; rather the world is fallen because mankind, all mankind, has sinned.  If you think Romans 1 says otherwise, then you really need to rethink what Romans 1 says.
Quote from: DaveW
In a sense, all sin, sickness of body and mind, and even some of the laws of physics (like the 3rd law of thermodynamics) are a result of Adam's sin.
There is nothing that you do that can be blamed on Adam.  I am not sure what you think the 3rd law of thermodynamics is, but I am pretty sure that God didn't change any laws of nature based upon what Adam did or didn't do.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Mon May 11, 2020 - 07:18:26
All sinners are "born that way."
Ah yes, the old original sin nonsense.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Mon May 11, 2020 - 07:53:30
I am not sure what you think the 3rd law of thermodynamics is, but I am pretty sure that God didn't change any laws of nature based upon what Adam did or didn't do.
Romans 8 says that all creation was subjected to futility by God due to the fall of man.

The 3rd law of thermodynamics says that entropy (randomness) always increases. Everything tends to go from order to disorder.  That is being subjected to futility.

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Mon May 11, 2020 - 08:12:36
Romans 8 says that all creation was subjected to futility by God due to the fall of man.
The Greek word there is "ktisis" and means either creation or creature.  The better translation in Romans 8 is obviously creature, meaning mankind or human beings.  It is the same word as in Mark 16:15, where again the word "creation" clearly is referencing human beings.

Quote from: DaveW
The 3rd law of thermodynamics says that entropy (randomness) always increases. Everything tends to go from order to disorder.  That is being subjected to futility.
First of all, entropy doesn't always increase.  When the water in the ice maker of the refrigerator freezes, the entropy of the water decreases. When a seed germinates and grows into a tree, the randomness decreases and the entropy decreases.  The law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a closed system is zero or increases.  Even the earth is not a closed system.  Entropy decreases all the time. 
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: jojo50 on Mon May 11, 2020 - 09:23:13
  “I don’t know what my role is going to be in this relationship. I just feel like he needs a real friend, and I hope I can minister to him, some way. Do you believe people can be born that way—that there is some kind of chemical makeup in their personalities that causes them to be that way? Is there nothing they can do about it? I’m starting to lean toward that theory. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. If you decide to print this, please don’t use my name.”[/size]

You are doing the right thing by loving and ministering to your friend in spite of his controversial and debatable lifestyle. Homosexuals and lesbians need Jesus as much as voyeurs, exhibitionists, those who practice bestiality, child molesters, adulterers, liars, and idolaters. So, yes, please try to reach him with the saving message of Jesus. 
 
As to the possibility that a biological or mental deformity at birth placed his sexual inclinations more toward the masculine gender than toward the feminine gender, I won’t argue the point. We do know that many people were “disfigured” at birth in various ways—not because God “created” them that way, but because of Adam’s Fall in the Garden of Eden. So, yes, it is possible to be sexually impaired at birth—in mind or in body, or both. However, place the blame on wicked Satan, not on a righteous and merciful God

You and I know the vast majority of homosexuals were not born that way, just as voyeurs and exhibitionists and child molesters were not born that way. They have adopted their lifestyle because, as God said, “Every inclination of the thoughts of his [man’s] heart was only evil all the time” [Gen. 6:5-6]. So be careful, lest you be convinced by your friend that all homosexuals are “born that way.” We ought not forget Sodom and Gomorrah. God wiped those sexually perverted cities off the face of earth [Gen. 19]. This historical event gives us a good mental picture of how our Lord feels about one of the results of Adam’s Fall—namely, homosexuality.

I totally agree!, I feel that because of Adam's sin. there are some who truly believe they were born that way. those who say something like..." I felt attracted to the opposite sex from a small child." theses I believe satan played a part in there thinking, from birth. I've seen one guy on a talk show, years ago, cried, because he was that way. so I knew it wasn't a lifestyle he chose. my HEART goes out to them! but others, as you stated, just wanted to take a walk on the wild side, and liked it!

still I pray that ALL would change from that way of living, Jehovah God!...as well as JESUS, wants them to. after all, it was Jehovah who said that it was an Abomination to him! but sadly MANY,  who call themselves a "Christian." seem to have a problem with homosexuality. yet MANY of them are Fornicators, Adulterers and more! do we NOT understand that we are placed in the same situation as the "Homosexuals?", if we too!... don't change?

see (Gal. 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness. idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies. envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). we ALL better get it right! peace

Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Mon May 11, 2020 - 09:26:06
The Greek word there is "ktisis" and means either creation or creature.  The better translation in Romans 8 is obviously creature, meaning mankind or human beings.  It is the same word as in Mark 16:15, where again the word "creation" clearly is referencing human beings.
I looked at the LXX and the root of that word is used some 28 times.  It can mean either man as creation or the world.

In light of these scriptures I take it as MUCH MORE than just mankind:

Isaiah 55:12
For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

Psalm 96:11
Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice; Let the sea roar, and all it contains;

Quote
First of all, entropy doesn't always increase.  When the water in the ice maker of the refrigerator freezes, the entropy of the water decreases. When a seed germinates and grows into a tree, the randomness decreases and the entropy decreases.  The law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a closed system is zero or increases.  Even the earth is not a closed system.  Entropy decreases all the time.
Entropy NEVER decreases.  If it appears to decrease it is because it is increasing somewhere else at the same or greater rate.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Mon May 11, 2020 - 16:00:43

4WD

    Your response, “You seriously want to blame homosexuality on Adam? I suppose then that you blame Adam for all of your own sins.  That is convenient.  Wrong of course, yet convenient.”

    Are you serious, brother? Tell me, until Adam sinned and fell from God’s grace, did homosexuality exist among God’s creation? Of course not. It was sin that corrupted and contaminated the world. Prior to the Fall, Adam was not homosexual. He had a wife.

    David sinned and paid the consequences of his sin. Adam sinned and paid the consequences of his universal sin—namely, a fallen world. If you want to assign guilt, point your finger in the direction of sin.

    All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt, are the result of the Fall. You and I are part of that Fall.

    I’m curious about your nature. You looked for and found a “reason” to respond negatively to the contents of my column. Tell us: Is there an aspect or two of the column that speaks favorably to you? Or should I conclude you are negative, overall?

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: soterion on Mon May 11, 2020 - 18:02:08
    All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt, are the result of the Fall. You and I are part of that Fall.

And Adam's sin is a result of...what?

I suggest that we all have sinned for the same reason as did Adam. Adam didn't make anybody be born a sinner or to be born in sin.

Blaming Adam for each of our sins is just taking the blame game even further than Adam and Eve did in the beginning:

Genesis 3:12-13.
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And Jehovah God said unto the woman, What is this thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

While God did punish the serpent for his role, God still held Adam and Eve individually responsible for their free choice to sin. In the same way, each person since then is individually responsible before God for his and her sins. Nobody can point to Adam and blame him for making us that way. God doesn't buy it and nobody else should. If we were born that way, we would be guiltless, for God is just. The fact that we are guilty, except for Christ, proves that we become sinners by our own choosing.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Alan on Mon May 11, 2020 - 19:07:05
If we were born that way, we would be guiltless, for God is just. The fact that we are guilty, except for Christ, proves that we become sinners by our own choosing.


That logic leaves a hole in the "original sin" partakers belief, if we are born sinless then there is no account for those that are born with physical and mental disabilities. If original sin is indeed true, then every birth abnormality can be blamed on Satan/Adam.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Mon May 11, 2020 - 21:22:17
MY SUGGESTION:

    Before some of you drift too far away from the original contents of the column under study, I suggest you evaluate again the following paragraph from said column.—Buff.

    As to the possibility that a biological or mental deformity at birth placed his sexual inclinations more toward the masculine gender than toward the feminine gender, I won’t argue the point. We do know that many people were “disfigured” at birth in various ways—not because God “created” them that way, but because of Adam’s Fall in the Garden of Eden. So, yes, it is possible to be sexually impaired at birth—in mind or in body, or both. However, place the blame on wicked Satan, not on a righteous and merciful God.

    If blame is to be placed on something or someone, let us target sin and Satan.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon May 11, 2020 - 21:24:31
Quote
There is nothing that you do that can be blamed on Adam.

Why the woman suffer so much more pain than it was supposed to be in child bearing, can she not blame that on Adam?

Why the man should have difficulty in working for his food when it was not supposed to be, can he not blame that on Adam?

Why mankind suffer living outside the garden of Eden and have no access to the fruit of the tree of life, can mankind not blame that on Adam?





Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Michael2012 on Mon May 11, 2020 - 21:41:47
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Adam’s Fall & One of The
Evil Results

    Perhaps the best way to introduce this topic is to share a letter I received from one of my avid readers of my Reformation Rumblings column.
______
 
    “Buff,  I have had contact with a friend of mine via conversation the last couple of days. I haven’t spoken to him since 1997. He and I were heavily into drugs in our younger years. He straightened himself out while I hadn’t, and we lost contact with each other. Now I’m a Christian believer, and he drops this bombshell on me by saying, ‘I’m gay.’ 
 
    “I’ve always believed homosexuality was learned behavior. I love this guy as a dear friend. We poured our hearts out to each other the other night. He didn’t want to face me because he felt he couldn’t tell me, as he knows how I feel about homosexual behavior. I told him I love him and even though I can’t condone what he does, I won’t turn my back on him.
 
    “I don’t know what my role is going to be in this relationship. I just feel like he needs a real friend, and I hope I can minister to him, some way. Do you believe people can be born that way—that there is some kind of chemical makeup in their personalities that causes them to be that way? Is there nothing they can do about it? I’m starting to lean toward that theory. Your comments will be greatly appreciated. If you decide to print this, please don’t use my name.”

______
 
   You are doing the right thing by loving and ministering to your friend in spite of his controversial and debatable lifestyle. Homosexuals and lesbians need Jesus as much as voyeurs, exhibitionists, those who practice bestiality, child molesters, adulterers, liars, and idolaters. So, yes, please try to reach him with the saving message of Jesus. 
 
    As to the possibility that a biological or mental deformity at birth placed his sexual inclinations more toward the masculine gender than toward the feminine gender, I won’t argue the point. We do know that many people were “disfigured” at birth in various ways—not because God “created” them that way, but because of Adam’s Fall in the Garden of Eden. So, yes, it is possible to be sexually impaired at birth—in mind or in body, or both. However, place the blame on wicked Satan, not on a righteous and merciful God

    In your friend’s case, I entertain doubts of his being “sexually impaired” at birth. I think his lifestyle might have contributed heavily to his decision to sanction and practice a perverted form of sex. If I am correct, and I’m only shooting in the dark at this point, his homosexual behavior has been learned and, as you suggested, what is learned can be unlearned. 
 
    You and I know the vast majority of homosexuals were not born that way, just as voyeurs and exhibitionists and child molesters were not born that way. They have adopted their lifestyle because, as God said, “Every inclination of the thoughts of his [man’s] heart was only evil all the time” [Gen. 6:5-6]. So be careful, lest you be convinced by your friend that all homosexuals are “born that way.”
 
    We ought not forget Sodom and Gomorrah. God wiped those sexually perverted cities off the face of earth [Gen. 19]. This historical event gives us a good mental picture of how our Lord feels about one of the results of Adam’s Fall—namely, homosexuality.

There is no doubt that homosexuality is something that came out from the doings of man, if not, of the wicked one. All theories concerning the origin or cause of homosexuality, all boils down to that.

The Bible is clear about God. From the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Mon May 11, 2020 - 22:30:35

Michael2012:

Thank you, Michael, for your insightful remarks.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue May 12, 2020 - 00:05:28
It doesn't matter that anyone is "born that way".  The whole point is..."what we choose to do".
I second this, although my views on homosexuality are probably "soft" compared to most conservatives.  The problem as I see it, isn't the act so much as it is the culture and "lifestyle." 

Think about this for a moment... what would you think about a heterosexual person whose life and social interactions were all defined by sex?  Wouldn't you think them a deviant?  Shallow? 

The same applies to anyone who allows their life to revolve around their sexual urges.  That's just a lack of basic self-control, and it's gross to everyone around you that you are constantly bringing everything back to sex.

So love who you want.  But don't go out of your way to stick it in everyone's face, okay?
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Tue May 12, 2020 - 05:46:14
4WD

    Your response, “You seriously want to blame homosexuality on Adam? I suppose then that you blame Adam for all of your own sins.  That is convenient.  Wrong of course, yet convenient.”

    Are you serious, brother? Tell me, until Adam sinned and fell from God’s grace, did homosexuality exist among God’s creation? Of course not. It was sin that corrupted and contaminated the world. Prior to the Fall, Adam was not homosexual. He had a wife.
Sorry Buff, but you commit the error of  conflating and confusing correlation with causation.

Quote
  David sinned and paid the consequences of his sin. Adam sinned and paid the consequences of his universal sin—namely, a fallen world. If you want to assign guilt, point your finger in the direction of sin.

    All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt, are the result of the Fall. You and I are part of that Fall.
Was Adam's sin the result of the Fall?  Of course not.  And all the talk about "the Fall"; as if something happened to the entire universe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.  Nothing happened to anything except what happened to Adam and Eve.  And what happened to you was not caused by or the result of anything Adam did.  Your sins are yours, not anyone else's and certainly not Adam's.  And Adam's sin(s) are not your sins.

Quote
    I’m curious about your nature. You looked for and found a “reason” to respond negatively to the contents of my column. Tell us: Is there an aspect or two of the column that speaks favorably to you? Or should I conclude you are negative, overall?
Me negative??  The title and subject of your post is negative.  There are no evil results from Adam's "Fall" except any evil which Adam committed.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 12, 2020 - 05:56:26
I second this, although my views on homosexuality are probably "soft" compared to most conservatives.  The problem as I see it, isn't the act so much as it is the culture and "lifestyle." 
Yeah -  that is more liberal than I am.  the words that translate to "sin" in both testaments mean to miss the mark.  Archery terminology - you aim at the target and miss.  Same sex desires certainly "miss the mark" from my POV.

Quote
Think about this for a moment... what would you think about a heterosexual person whose life and social interactions were all defined by sex?  Wouldn't you think them a deviant?  Shallow? 
According to the leaders of the congregation i attended in college, having ANY KIND of sexual feelings, urges, thoughts or curiosity BEFORE saying "I DO" was evil sinful lust and probably demonic. They actually said you should be like a 5 year old until you marry, even if you are old when you get married.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Tue May 12, 2020 - 05:58:09
MY SUGGESTION:

    Before some of you drift too far away from the original contents of the column under study, I suggest you evaluate again the following paragraph from said column.—Buff.

    As to the possibility that a biological or mental deformity at birth placed his sexual inclinations more toward the masculine gender than toward the feminine gender, I won’t argue the point. We do know that many people were “disfigured” at birth in various ways—not because God “created” them that way, but because of Adam’s Fall in the Garden of Eden. So, yes, it is possible to be sexually impaired at birth—in mind or in body, or both. However, place the blame on wicked Satan, not on a righteous and merciful God.

    If blame is to be placed on something or someone, let us target sin and Satan.

Buff
Did God create genetics?  Did God create the possibility for genetic variances?  Of course.  Nothing physically changed with God's creation when Adam sinned.  If blame is to be place on something or someone, then the target is you, Buff, and me.  Any wrong you do , any evil you commit, any sin you engage in is on you only.  Don't try to deflect that blame.  God holds you spiritually accountable only for your sins, not for the sins of anyone else including Adam.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: soterion on Tue May 12, 2020 - 07:08:15

That logic leaves a hole in the "original sin" partakers belief, if we are born sinless then there is no account for those that are born with physical and mental disabilities. If original sin is indeed true, then every birth abnormality can be blamed on Satan/Adam.

True. It is interesting that you linked Adam and Satan as you did. The way some people blame Adam for all the sin in our lives, it's as if Adam is Satan.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: soterion on Tue May 12, 2020 - 07:17:27
MY SUGGESTION:

    Before some of you drift too far away from the original contents of the column under study, I suggest you evaluate again the following paragraph from said column.—Buff.

    As to the possibility that a biological or mental deformity at birth placed his sexual inclinations more toward the masculine gender than toward the feminine gender, I won’t argue the point. We do know that many people were “disfigured” at birth in various ways—not because God “created” them that way, but because of Adam’s Fall in the Garden of Eden. So, yes, it is possible to be sexually impaired at birth—in mind or in body, or both. However, place the blame on wicked Satan, not on a righteous and merciful God.

    If blame is to be placed on something or someone, let us target sin and Satan.

Buff

And, yet again, who does God hold accountable for a person's homosexuality? That person's.

If he was born that way due to faulty genetics, then God is unjust to punish the person, or to require him to repent and to cease and desist.

I know that it will be brought up that it is the activity of homosexuality that is the sin, and not the emotional inclination alone, so that such a person can fight the desire and not engage in such and be considered sinless (yep, I just brought it up). However, if we are going to blame it on what Adam did, or on genetics, then it is still unjust to hold such a person guilty if he gives in.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 12, 2020 - 07:42:00
Did God create genetics?  Did God create the possibility for genetic variances?  Of course.  Nothing physically changed with God's creation when Adam sinned.
You cannot prove there were no genetic changes from the fall.  I am also of the opinion that the skin and bone structure variants we see today were imposed on mankind at the tower of Babel incident.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 12, 2020 - 07:45:48
I know that it will be brought up that it is the activity of homosexuality that is the sin, and not the emotional inclination alone,
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

"Burned in their desires ..."  Sounds like God holds them accountable for the "inclination" as well as the acts.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Tue May 12, 2020 - 07:46:54
You cannot prove there were no genetic changes from the fall.  I am also of the opinion that the skin and bone structure variants we see today were imposed on mankind at the tower of Babel incident.
You have presented effects, i.e., genetic changes and skin and bone structure variants.  Now what or who is the cause?  And please explain how all that happened if God was not the cause.  You have implied that someone other than God cause all of that to happen.  How can that be?
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Alan on Tue May 12, 2020 - 08:02:00
True. It is interesting that you linked Adam and Satan as you did. The way some people blame Adam for all the sin in our lives, it's as if Adam is Satan.


My intention was not to relate Satan and Adam by genetics nor do I blame Adam for sin in our lives anymore than I blame Pilate for the death of Christ. "Good" was up for grabs in both instances and both failed to grasp it, much the same as our struggles today but obviously to a much lesser extent.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: soterion on Tue May 12, 2020 - 09:35:40

My intention was not to relate Satan and Adam by genetics nor do I blame Adam for sin in our lives anymore than I blame Pilate for the death of Christ. "Good" was up for grabs in both instances and both failed to grasp it, much the same as our struggles today but obviously to a much lesser extent.

I know that.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Alan on Tue May 12, 2020 - 09:42:27
I know that.


I knew that  ::crackup::
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 12, 2020 - 10:33:52
You have presented effects, i.e., genetic changes and skin and bone structure variants.  Now what or who is the cause?  And please explain how all that happened if God was not the cause.  You have implied that someone other than God cause all of that to happen.  How can that be?
Of course God caused that.  That was not my point.

I was saying there were no changes like that noted in Genesis 3 when adam and eve fell.  So we do not know one way or the other.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Tue May 12, 2020 - 10:57:31
Of course God caused that.  That was not my point.

I was saying there were no changes like that noted in Genesis 3 when adam and eve fell.  So we do not know one way or the other.
Maybe you do not know one way or the other, but I do.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: DaveW on Tue May 12, 2020 - 11:41:03
Maybe you do not know one way or the other, but I do.

You DO??  Have you discovered a lost book of the bible that says as much? 

Please fill us all in.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Tue May 12, 2020 - 13:12:34
You DO??  Have you discovered a lost book of the bible that says as much? 

Please fill us all in.
I know about gravity, about electromagnetism, about photons, electrons, protons, etc., and none of that is in the Bible either.  And by the way, I know about thermodynamics also, quite a bit actually.

Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Tue May 12, 2020 - 14:21:23

READERS

    May I at least try to make our controversies on these issues less controversial? If I, or someone else can, perhaps the “rambling around the mulberry bush” may no longer seem necessary.

    Both Adam and Satan existed in the Paradisiacal Garden of Eden—or, as I like to refer to it, Garden of Delight. No sin, evil, or corruption of any kind had yet contaminated humanity.

    Satan, being the Devil that he was—and is—felt quite uncomfortable in and with such a divine and immaculate environment. As Satan is the author of chaos, as opposed to perfection, his intent was to make the world more to his liking.

    Prior to succeeding, no sin of any kind prevailed—no lying, no killing, no hurts, no offences, no adultery, no fornication, no homosexuality. It was only after he induced Adam and Eve to disobey God that all of these evils, these sins, these corruptions, surfaced or became available.

    Although available at the moment of the Fall, man was not forced to lie, he was not forced to deceive, he was not forced to kill, and he was not forced to go to bed with the same sex. All of these behaviors, plus a host of others, were learned! Because sin had entered the world, evil inclinations, created by Satan, infected and spread among humanity.

    Satan worked through Adam and Eve to pollute the world with evil—so much so that Adam’s son Cain murdered his brother Able, and lied in the process. My point: Because of Satan’s influence and Adam’s disobedience, all evils that have ever been committed are the consequences of Satan and sin, including homosexuality.

    Hear me good— In a real sense, Adam can be blamed in that he deliberately disobeyed his Creator, but he cannot be blamed for all of the evils that followed. Only those who have committed those evils can be charged with them, not Adam.

    If we wish to place the aggregate—entire, complete—blame on someone, accuse and criticize the founder of all evils, Satan. For if Satan had not succeeded in influencing Adam and Eve, we would still be living in the Garden of Delight without homosexuality or any other immorality.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue May 12, 2020 - 19:25:36
According to the leaders of the congregation i attended in college, having ANY KIND of sexual feelings, urges, thoughts or curiosity BEFORE saying "I DO" was evil sinful lust and probably demonic. They actually said you should be like a 5 year old until you marry, even if you are old when you get married.
That seems equally unhealthy.

Desires are a result of chemical reactions happening in your body... no sin there.  Sin comes when you act on it and DO wrong.

Ephesians 4:26 says Be angry, and sin not.

Didja know that word angry there in the verse, in Greek it's orgizo and it literally means "to be swollen with blood."  Maybe our Bibles should say, "Be horny, but sin not."

::ducks::

Jarrod
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Tue May 12, 2020 - 23:14:01

JARROD:

    I hear you, brother, and appreciate what you said. However, I'm inclined to stick with inclinations instead of "chemical reactions." I see inclinations as being devised by Satan. But I'm open for more.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Michael2012 on Wed May 13, 2020 - 00:24:23
READERS

    May I at least try to make our controversies on these issues less controversial? If I, or someone else can, perhaps the “rambling around the mulberry bush” may no longer seem necessary.

    Both Adam and Satan existed in the Paradisiacal Garden of Eden—or, as I like to refer to it, Garden of Delight. No sin, evil, or corruption of any kind had yet contaminated humanity.

    Satan, being the Devil that he was—and is—felt quite uncomfortable in and with such a divine and immaculate environment. As Satan is the author of chaos, as opposed to perfection, his intent was to make the world more to his liking.

    Prior to succeeding, no sin of any kind prevailed—no lying, no killing, no hurts, no offences, no adultery, no fornication, no homosexuality. It was only after he induced Adam and Eve to disobey God that all of these evils, these sins, these corruptions, surfaced or became available.

    Although available at the moment of the Fall, man was not forced to lie, he was not forced to deceive, he was not forced to kill, and he was not forced to go to bed with the same sex. All of these behaviors, plus a host of others, were learned! Because sin had entered the world, evil inclinations, created by Satan, infected and spread among humanity.

    Satan worked through Adam and Eve to pollute the world with evil—so much so that Adam’s son Cain murdered his brother Able, and lied in the process. My point: Because of Satan’s influence and Adam’s disobedience, all evils that have ever been committed are the consequences of Satan and sin, including homosexuality.

    Hear me good— In a real sense, Adam can be blamed in that he deliberately disobeyed his Creator, but he cannot be blamed for all of the evils that followed. Only those who have committed those evils can be charged with them, not Adam.

    If we wish to place the aggregate—entire, complete—blame on someone, accuse and criticize the founder of all evils, Satan. For if Satan had not succeeded in influencing Adam and Eve, we would still be living in the Garden of Delight without homosexuality or any other immorality.

Buff

Greetings Buff!

As I said in my post reply #16, and I quote:

Quote
There is no doubt that homosexuality is something that came out from the doings of man, if not, of the wicked one. All theories concerning the origin or cause of homosexuality, all boils down to that.

The Bible is clear about God. From the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.

That is with regards the cause and origin. But with regards the blame, as every sin could only be attributed to the one who commits it, so homosexuality can't be blamed on someone else. He/she can't point the blame to anyone other than him/herself.

Eve blamed Satan, but that did not absolve her. Adam too blamed Eve, but that did not absolve him. The three were held responsible by God, according to what they had done.

Buff: Because of Satan’s influence and Adam’s disobedience, all evils that have ever been committed are the consequences of Satan and sin, including homosexuality.

God is good and holy. He can't sin and no evil could come out from Him. So there is no doubt that sin and evil is something that came out from, if not, from Satan, or both. All theories concerning the origin or cause of sin and evil, all boils down to that.

I think there is something that is ignored in relation to evil, that is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I actually see this as the major reason as to why the fallen man is very much different from when he was before the fall. The knowledge of good and evil is sort of a guaranty to their (fallen man) dying or of their death. It's actually explicit in the commandment. Notice, this tree of the knowledge of good and evil is at the middle of the garden together with the tree of life. Life and death are placed both in the midst of the garden. Also notice what is said in Gen. 3:22 about the fallen man. There obviously is something so different in Adam than when he was before the fall, and something of very serious concern about him that God made sure that he was not allowed to have access or that God made sure that he does not get to eat of the tree of life. A thing to consider Buff, and for you to ponder about.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Wed May 13, 2020 - 05:00:16
4WD

    Your response, “You seriously want to blame homosexuality on Adam? I suppose then that you blame Adam for all of your own sins.  That is convenient.  Wrong of course, yet convenient.”

    Are you serious, brother? Tell me, until Adam sinned and fell from God’s grace, did homosexuality exist among God’s creation? Of course not. It was sin that corrupted and contaminated the world. Prior to the Fall, Adam was not homosexual. He had a wife.
After the fall, Adam was not homosexual either.  Homosexuality, as a sin, did not exist until the first homosexual act was committed.  And that had nothing whatsoever to do with "the Fall". 

Quote
    David sinned and paid the consequences of his sin. Adam sinned and paid the consequences of his universal sin—namely, a fallen world. If you want to assign guilt, point your finger in the direction of sin.
I really do not know what "a fallen world" really is.  There is no indication that anything changed in the world.  The only thing that changed was Adam's (and Eve's) standing before God.  It is exactly the same thing that changes when a child today commits his first sin and becomes a sinner alienated before God.

 
Quote
   All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt, are the result of the Fall. You and I are part of that Fall.
All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt are the result of our own decision to disobey God. Each person, if he lives long enough, commits his own "fall", and that having nothing whatsoever to do with anything Adam did.  The world, as a physical universe, is not fallen.  Only man is fallen and that only individually.

Quote
    I’m curious about your nature. You looked for and found a “reason” to respond negatively to the contents of my column. Tell us: Is there an aspect or two of the column that speaks favorably to you? Or should I conclude you are negative, overall?

Buff
I see nothing negative about properly interpreting God's word.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Wed May 13, 2020 - 20:55:20

Michael2012:

Thanks. We're pretty much on the same channel.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Wed May 13, 2020 - 21:04:29
4WD:

    Many of the conclusions in your reply above are questionable and, as I view them, off-center, and I won't take the time or spend my mental energy on a detailed response. I will, however, repeat a question and hope for an answer.

    "Is there an aspect or two of the column [posted Sunday] that speaks favorably to you?"

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Thu May 14, 2020 - 06:23:50
4WD:

    Many of the conclusions in your reply above are questionable and, as I analyze them, off-center, and I won't take the time or spend my mental energy on a detailed response. I will, however, repeat a question and hope for an answer.

    "Is there an aspect or two of the column [posted Sunday] that speaks favorably to you?"

Buff
There is not a whole lot in your column that speaks favorably to me since most of the basics concerning the actual effects of Adam's sin are simply wrong.  I do agree that we must always approach the sinner, the non-Christian, with the goal of teaching and preaching Christ to them; and that is independent of the specific nature of their sins.  You said,
We ought not forget Sodom and Gomorrah. God wiped those sexually perverted cities off the face of earth [Gen. 19]. This historical event gives us a good mental picture of how our Lord feels about one of the results of Adam’s Fall—namely, homosexuality.
First, none of that is the result of Adam’s Fall.  Neither your sins nor mine are the results of Adam’s Fall; nor can they be blamed on Adam, or even Satan for that matter.  Our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders and on no one else's.

Second, you need to hear again and understand what Jesus said about Sodom and Gomorrah, namely,
 
Matt 10:15  Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town (any town that would not receive those sent by Jesus or would not listen to them).

Matt 11:23  And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matt 11:24  But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."


So while I do believe that God has placed some extra emphasis on sin of a sexual nature;I think that probably has as much to do with the widespread existence of such sin within all of mankind as much the actual sin itself.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Thu May 14, 2020 - 18:53:59
4WD:

    4WD“First, none of that [Sodom & Gomorrah] is the result of Adam’s Fall.  Neither your sins nor mine are the results of Adam’s Fall; nor can they be blamed on Adam, or even Satan for that matter. Our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders and on no one else’s”

    PAUL“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,” or because of one man, “and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” [Rom. 5:12].

    Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.

    Even the ground was cursed because of Adam’s Fall. Because Adam listened to the voice of his wife and ate of the tree, “cursed is the ground because of you” [Gen 3:17-18]. To phrase it another way, “Or because of your sin.”

    The results of Adam’s Fall are biblically clear, plain, and explicit. Sin “came into the world through one man.” Adam’s sin became the root of all sin in that his sin opened the door and introduced to the world all evil and corruption. Although he himself was not charged with all sinful activity that followed, yet he unsealed and inaugurated what followed. “Just as sin came into the world through one man.”—Paul.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Fri May 15, 2020 - 06:55:27
4WD:

    4WD“First, none of that [Sodom & Gomorrah] is the result of Adam’s Fall.  Neither your sins nor mine are the results of Adam’s Fall; nor can they be blamed on Adam, or even Satan for that matter. Our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders and on no one else’s”

    PAUL“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,” or because of one man, “and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” [Rom. 5:12].

    Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.

    Even the ground was cursed because of Adam’s Fall. Because Adam listened to the voice of his wife and ate of the tree, “cursed is the ground because of you” [Gen 3:17-18]. To phrase it another way, “Or because of your sin.”

    The results of Adam’s Fall are biblically clear, plain, and explicit. Sin “came into the world through one man.” Adam’s sin became the root of all sin in that his sin opened the door and introduced to the world all evil and corruption. Although he himself was not charged with all sinful activity that followed, yet he unsealed and inaugurated what followed. “Just as sin came into the world through one man.”—Paul.

Buff
First, the hypothetical "if Adam had never sinned" is a totally useless deliberation.  The simple fact is that it did happen; Adam did sin.  And so trying to draw a conclusion from the "what if he hadn't sinned" is meaningless. That would be very much like trying to come to a meaningful conclusion to the hypothetical "what if the earth were really flat".

And your quoting Romans 5:12 in support of your premise is really silly since Paul establishes in that verse that the real reason that death spread to all men is because all men sinned, not because Adam sinned.  Adam was simply the first to sin. He was/is not the cause of sin.  He was the first to die (spiritually).  He was not the cause of anyone else to die (spiritually). 

And as for the curse of the ground, what was that curse? It was thorns and thistles.  What does that really mean?  It means that man would have to work for his food and his efforts to produce edible food would be in competition with the inedible food, i.e, the thorns and thistles.  That was the condition of the ground outside of the Garden.

And not surprising at all, you quoted the introductory sentence of Paul's discussion in Romans 5:12-21 without, apparently, understanding the message that he presented in the verses which followed.  That message, so far as the sins of man are concerned, is that whatever the effect Adam's disobedience might have had upon mankind, the Jesus' obedience completely nullified that effect:  "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18). And just to make sure you would understand that, Paul repeated that again using a slightly different phrasing in the very next verse (v.19): "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri May 15, 2020 - 10:16:37
JARROD:

    I hear you, brother, and appreciate what you said. However, I'm inclined to stick with inclinations instead of "chemical reactions." I see inclinations as being devised by Satan. But I'm open for more.

Buff
I would give the devil less credit, and put more of the blame on people.

As I see it, the devil is defeated... and yet the issue persists.  So, who is the problem here?

I think the problem is that men "walk in the imagination of their own heart" as the prophet Jeremiah says.

Jarrod

Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Reformer on Fri May 15, 2020 - 14:17:00

4WD:

    "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18). And just to make sure you would understand that, Paul repeated that again using a slightly different phrasing in the very next verse (v.19): "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

    Thanks for quoting additional scripture that bolsters what I have been advocating! "Just as sin came into the world through one man" or "by one man" reveals rather conclusively what I have been saying.

    By the way, "through" one man or "by" one man in the Greek means it was channeled through Adam or because of Adam.—Thayer & Strong.

    I'll close my part of this dialogue by reasserting what I wrote yesterday. There is entirely too much repetition—whether on your part or on my part, or both.

     Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.

Buff
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Michael2012 on Fri May 15, 2020 - 19:02:51
Buff,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Just want to share that verse. It's related to what Paul was saying in Romans 5:12-19. The first part speaks of the truth about what man is, him being in Adam. The second part speaks of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ, that is, what becomes of him when he is in Christ.

Michael
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: soterion on Fri May 15, 2020 - 19:40:30
Buff,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Just want to share that verse. It's related to what Paul was saying in Romans 5:12-19. The first part speaks of the truth about what man is, him being in Adam. The second part speaks of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ, that is, what becomes of him when he is in Christ.

Michael


We've discussed the passage before, and you still get it wrong.  ::smile::

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230)
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat May 16, 2020 - 01:27:44
We've discussed the passage before, and you still get it wrong.  ::smile::

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230[/url] ([url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230[/url])
Yes, we did and you still remain in your error? :(

Would you say you were in Adam?

Would you say you are in Christ?
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: yogi bear on Sat May 16, 2020 - 04:12:18
Quote
Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world.

Just thinking out loud but maybe this is not completely true. Satan was thrown out of heaven and was placed in the world before Adam came alone as I understand it and was the source that encouraged Eve to sin therefore sin was in the world before Adam submitted to it.

Wow does that make any since or am I way out in left field here?

Just a little humble mind thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Sat May 16, 2020 - 05:42:41
We've discussed the passage before, and you still get it wrong.  ::smile::

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230[/url] ([url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230[/url])

Yep!
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: 4WD on Sat May 16, 2020 - 05:48:03
Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.
So, obviously, God should have started this whole thing out with someone else instead of Adam so that there would have been no sin in the world and Jesus would not have had to die. 
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: Michael2012 on Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:15:33
     Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world.

Buff

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Yes, sin was outside the world or that it is not part of the created world. Sin only entered the world when Eve sinned and Adam sinned. That goes as well with death.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: GB on Sat May 16, 2020 - 09:03:09
Just thinking out loud but maybe this is not completely true. Satan was thrown out of heaven and was placed in the world before Adam came alone as I understand it and was the source that encouraged Eve to sin therefore sin was in the world before Adam submitted to it.

Wow does that make any since or am I way out in left field here?

Just a little humble mind thinking out loud.

My thoughts exactly. If satan existed before Adam, then sin most certainly existed. There were some firsts though. Eve was the first HUMAN to be deceived by the "other religious voice". And Adam was the first HUMAN to be deceived by another Human.

Just me thinking out load Yogi, I find the "woman" also called the bride and also implied as the "church" in other places, was where satan attacked first. This woman was given to Adam by God. In like manner, Jesus was sent to a lost church, given him by God. "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus was also given a "woman" so to speak, but unlike Adam, HE didn't succumb to her influence. So satan went directly to Jesus after 30 years of trying to influence HIM by the lost sheep. satan didn't have to attack Adam directly, it just coerced Eve to do it's will and that was enough.

Fascinating study to be sure. I do agree that Adam didn't create sin, it existed long before the first human come to be.
Title: Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
Post by: soterion on Sat May 16, 2020 - 09:38:30
Just thinking out loud but maybe this is not completely true. Satan was thrown out of heaven and was placed in the world before Adam came alone as I understand it and was the source that encouraged Eve to sin therefore sin was in the world before Adam submitted to it.

Wow does that make any since or am I way out in left field here?

Just a little humble mind thinking out loud.

Paul's point isn't to specify the person who first sinned, which was Eve. His point is to get into a description of the comparisons and contrasts concerning the affects of Adam on the human race and of Jesus on the human race, Adam being a type or figure of Christ. That Eve sinned prior to Adam is beside the point in this context.

What does it mean that sin, and death through sin, entered the world? Some seem to envision a Pandora's Box affect, where Adam sinned and then all the sins of the devil flooded into the world. I don't buy it. It also doesn't mean that the entire human race was born in sin or were born sinners, the spread taking place at each person's conception or birth.

I have to believe, in keeping with the context, that whatever it means that grace and justification and eternal life have entered into the world through Jesus Christ and abounded to the many (5:15) and came to all men (5:18), so sin and death had entered into the world and came to all men.

How does sin and death "come to a man?" Paul said in verse 12 that death spread to all men because all sinned. This means that death takes place when a person sins. People are not born sinners nor are they/we born dead because of sin. We have to actually commit sin before death takes place, and the committing of sin is by means of giving in to temptation. In the same way how does grace and justification and eternal life abound to the many and come to all men? Through the exercise of faith upon hearing the gospel. In each and all of these situations, it is by choice that a person gives in to temptation and then either does or does not hear with faith so as to receive the gift of Jesus.