Author Topic: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results  (Read 889 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #35 on: Tue May 12, 2020 - 19:25:36 »
According to the leaders of the congregation i attended in college, having ANY KIND of sexual feelings, urges, thoughts or curiosity BEFORE saying "I DO" was evil sinful lust and probably demonic. They actually said you should be like a 5 year old until you marry, even if you are old when you get married.
That seems equally unhealthy.

Desires are a result of chemical reactions happening in your body... no sin there.  Sin comes when you act on it and DO wrong.

Ephesians 4:26 says Be angry, and sin not.

Didja know that word angry there in the verse, in Greek it's orgizo and it literally means "to be swollen with blood."  Maybe our Bibles should say, "Be horny, but sin not."

::ducks::

Jarrod

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #35 on: Tue May 12, 2020 - 19:25:36 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #36 on: Tue May 12, 2020 - 23:14:01 »

JARROD:

    I hear you, brother, and appreciate what you said. However, I'm inclined to stick with inclinations instead of "chemical reactions." I see inclinations as being devised by Satan. But I'm open for more.

Buff

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #37 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 00:24:23 »
READERS

    May I at least try to make our controversies on these issues less controversial? If I, or someone else can, perhaps the “rambling around the mulberry bush” may no longer seem necessary.

    Both Adam and Satan existed in the Paradisiacal Garden of Eden—or, as I like to refer to it, Garden of Delight. No sin, evil, or corruption of any kind had yet contaminated humanity.

    Satan, being the Devil that he was—and is—felt quite uncomfortable in and with such a divine and immaculate environment. As Satan is the author of chaos, as opposed to perfection, his intent was to make the world more to his liking.

    Prior to succeeding, no sin of any kind prevailed—no lying, no killing, no hurts, no offences, no adultery, no fornication, no homosexuality. It was only after he induced Adam and Eve to disobey God that all of these evils, these sins, these corruptions, surfaced or became available.

    Although available at the moment of the Fall, man was not forced to lie, he was not forced to deceive, he was not forced to kill, and he was not forced to go to bed with the same sex. All of these behaviors, plus a host of others, were learned! Because sin had entered the world, evil inclinations, created by Satan, infected and spread among humanity.

    Satan worked through Adam and Eve to pollute the world with evil—so much so that Adam’s son Cain murdered his brother Able, and lied in the process. My point: Because of Satan’s influence and Adam’s disobedience, all evils that have ever been committed are the consequences of Satan and sin, including homosexuality.

    Hear me good— In a real sense, Adam can be blamed in that he deliberately disobeyed his Creator, but he cannot be blamed for all of the evils that followed. Only those who have committed those evils can be charged with them, not Adam.

    If we wish to place the aggregate—entire, complete—blame on someone, accuse and criticize the founder of all evils, Satan. For if Satan had not succeeded in influencing Adam and Eve, we would still be living in the Garden of Delight without homosexuality or any other immorality.

Buff

Greetings Buff!

As I said in my post reply #16, and I quote:

Quote
There is no doubt that homosexuality is something that came out from the doings of man, if not, of the wicked one. All theories concerning the origin or cause of homosexuality, all boils down to that.

The Bible is clear about God. From the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.

That is with regards the cause and origin. But with regards the blame, as every sin could only be attributed to the one who commits it, so homosexuality can't be blamed on someone else. He/she can't point the blame to anyone other than him/herself.

Eve blamed Satan, but that did not absolve her. Adam too blamed Eve, but that did not absolve him. The three were held responsible by God, according to what they had done.

Buff: Because of Satan’s influence and Adam’s disobedience, all evils that have ever been committed are the consequences of Satan and sin, including homosexuality.

God is good and holy. He can't sin and no evil could come out from Him. So there is no doubt that sin and evil is something that came out from, if not, from Satan, or both. All theories concerning the origin or cause of sin and evil, all boils down to that.

I think there is something that is ignored in relation to evil, that is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I actually see this as the major reason as to why the fallen man is very much different from when he was before the fall. The knowledge of good and evil is sort of a guaranty to their (fallen man) dying or of their death. It's actually explicit in the commandment. Notice, this tree of the knowledge of good and evil is at the middle of the garden together with the tree of life. Life and death are placed both in the midst of the garden. Also notice what is said in Gen. 3:22 about the fallen man. There obviously is something so different in Adam than when he was before the fall, and something of very serious concern about him that God made sure that he was not allowed to have access or that God made sure that he does not get to eat of the tree of life. A thing to consider Buff, and for you to ponder about.

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #37 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 00:24:23 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 05:00:16 »
4WD

    Your response, “You seriously want to blame homosexuality on Adam? I suppose then that you blame Adam for all of your own sins.  That is convenient.  Wrong of course, yet convenient.”

    Are you serious, brother? Tell me, until Adam sinned and fell from God’s grace, did homosexuality exist among God’s creation? Of course not. It was sin that corrupted and contaminated the world. Prior to the Fall, Adam was not homosexual. He had a wife.
After the fall, Adam was not homosexual either.  Homosexuality, as a sin, did not exist until the first homosexual act was committed.  And that had nothing whatsoever to do with "the Fall". 

Quote
    David sinned and paid the consequences of his sin. Adam sinned and paid the consequences of his universal sin—namely, a fallen world. If you want to assign guilt, point your finger in the direction of sin.
I really do not know what "a fallen world" really is.  There is no indication that anything changed in the world.  The only thing that changed was Adam's (and Eve's) standing before God.  It is exactly the same thing that changes when a child today commits his first sin and becomes a sinner alienated before God.

 
Quote
   All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt, are the result of the Fall. You and I are part of that Fall.
All of our own sins, regardless of how awful and corrupt are the result of our own decision to disobey God. Each person, if he lives long enough, commits his own "fall", and that having nothing whatsoever to do with anything Adam did.  The world, as a physical universe, is not fallen.  Only man is fallen and that only individually.

Quote
    I’m curious about your nature. You looked for and found a “reason” to respond negatively to the contents of my column. Tell us: Is there an aspect or two of the column that speaks favorably to you? Or should I conclude you are negative, overall?

Buff
I see nothing negative about properly interpreting God's word.

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 05:00:16 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 20:55:20 »

Michael2012:

Thanks. We're pretty much on the same channel.

Buff

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 20:55:20 »



Offline Reformer

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #40 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 21:04:29 »
4WD:

    Many of the conclusions in your reply above are questionable and, as I view them, off-center, and I won't take the time or spend my mental energy on a detailed response. I will, however, repeat a question and hope for an answer.

    "Is there an aspect or two of the column [posted Sunday] that speaks favorably to you?"

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu May 14, 2020 - 22:43:13 by Reformer »

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #40 on: Wed May 13, 2020 - 21:04:29 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #41 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 06:23:50 »
4WD:

    Many of the conclusions in your reply above are questionable and, as I analyze them, off-center, and I won't take the time or spend my mental energy on a detailed response. I will, however, repeat a question and hope for an answer.

    "Is there an aspect or two of the column [posted Sunday] that speaks favorably to you?"

Buff
There is not a whole lot in your column that speaks favorably to me since most of the basics concerning the actual effects of Adam's sin are simply wrong.  I do agree that we must always approach the sinner, the non-Christian, with the goal of teaching and preaching Christ to them; and that is independent of the specific nature of their sins.  You said,
We ought not forget Sodom and Gomorrah. God wiped those sexually perverted cities off the face of earth [Gen. 19]. This historical event gives us a good mental picture of how our Lord feels about one of the results of Adam’s Fall—namely, homosexuality.
First, none of that is the result of Adam’s Fall.  Neither your sins nor mine are the results of Adam’s Fall; nor can they be blamed on Adam, or even Satan for that matter.  Our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders and on no one else's.

Second, you need to hear again and understand what Jesus said about Sodom and Gomorrah, namely,
 
Matt 10:15  Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town (any town that would not receive those sent by Jesus or would not listen to them).

Matt 11:23  And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matt 11:24  But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."


So while I do believe that God has placed some extra emphasis on sin of a sexual nature;I think that probably has as much to do with the widespread existence of such sin within all of mankind as much the actual sin itself.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #42 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 18:53:59 »
4WD:

    4WD“First, none of that [Sodom & Gomorrah] is the result of Adam’s Fall.  Neither your sins nor mine are the results of Adam’s Fall; nor can they be blamed on Adam, or even Satan for that matter. Our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders and on no one else’s”

    PAUL“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,” or because of one man, “and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” [Rom. 5:12].

    Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.

    Even the ground was cursed because of Adam’s Fall. Because Adam listened to the voice of his wife and ate of the tree, “cursed is the ground because of you” [Gen 3:17-18]. To phrase it another way, “Or because of your sin.”

    The results of Adam’s Fall are biblically clear, plain, and explicit. Sin “came into the world through one man.” Adam’s sin became the root of all sin in that his sin opened the door and introduced to the world all evil and corruption. Although he himself was not charged with all sinful activity that followed, yet he unsealed and inaugurated what followed. “Just as sin came into the world through one man.”—Paul.

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu May 14, 2020 - 22:41:25 by Reformer »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #43 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 06:55:27 »
4WD:

    4WD“First, none of that [Sodom & Gomorrah] is the result of Adam’s Fall.  Neither your sins nor mine are the results of Adam’s Fall; nor can they be blamed on Adam, or even Satan for that matter. Our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders and on no one else’s”

    PAUL“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man,” or because of one man, “and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” [Rom. 5:12].

    Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.

    Even the ground was cursed because of Adam’s Fall. Because Adam listened to the voice of his wife and ate of the tree, “cursed is the ground because of you” [Gen 3:17-18]. To phrase it another way, “Or because of your sin.”

    The results of Adam’s Fall are biblically clear, plain, and explicit. Sin “came into the world through one man.” Adam’s sin became the root of all sin in that his sin opened the door and introduced to the world all evil and corruption. Although he himself was not charged with all sinful activity that followed, yet he unsealed and inaugurated what followed. “Just as sin came into the world through one man.”—Paul.

Buff
First, the hypothetical "if Adam had never sinned" is a totally useless deliberation.  The simple fact is that it did happen; Adam did sin.  And so trying to draw a conclusion from the "what if he hadn't sinned" is meaningless. That would be very much like trying to come to a meaningful conclusion to the hypothetical "what if the earth were really flat".

And your quoting Romans 5:12 in support of your premise is really silly since Paul establishes in that verse that the real reason that death spread to all men is because all men sinned, not because Adam sinned.  Adam was simply the first to sin. He was/is not the cause of sin.  He was the first to die (spiritually).  He was not the cause of anyone else to die (spiritually). 

And as for the curse of the ground, what was that curse? It was thorns and thistles.  What does that really mean?  It means that man would have to work for his food and his efforts to produce edible food would be in competition with the inedible food, i.e, the thorns and thistles.  That was the condition of the ground outside of the Garden.

And not surprising at all, you quoted the introductory sentence of Paul's discussion in Romans 5:12-21 without, apparently, understanding the message that he presented in the verses which followed.  That message, so far as the sins of man are concerned, is that whatever the effect Adam's disobedience might have had upon mankind, the Jesus' obedience completely nullified that effect:  "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18). And just to make sure you would understand that, Paul repeated that again using a slightly different phrasing in the very next verse (v.19): "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
« Last Edit: Fri May 15, 2020 - 07:02:26 by 4WD »

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #43 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 06:55:27 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #44 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 10:16:37 »
JARROD:

    I hear you, brother, and appreciate what you said. However, I'm inclined to stick with inclinations instead of "chemical reactions." I see inclinations as being devised by Satan. But I'm open for more.

Buff
I would give the devil less credit, and put more of the blame on people.

As I see it, the devil is defeated... and yet the issue persists.  So, who is the problem here?

I think the problem is that men "walk in the imagination of their own heart" as the prophet Jeremiah says.

Jarrod


Offline Reformer

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #45 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 14:17:00 »

4WD:

    "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18). And just to make sure you would understand that, Paul repeated that again using a slightly different phrasing in the very next verse (v.19): "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

    Thanks for quoting additional scripture that bolsters what I have been advocating! "Just as sin came into the world through one man" or "by one man" reveals rather conclusively what I have been saying.

    By the way, "through" one man or "by" one man in the Greek means it was channeled through Adam or because of Adam.—Thayer & Strong.

    I'll close my part of this dialogue by reasserting what I wrote yesterday. There is entirely too much repetition—whether on your part or on my part, or both.

     Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.

Buff

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #46 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 19:02:51 »
Buff,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Just want to share that verse. It's related to what Paul was saying in Romans 5:12-19. The first part speaks of the truth about what man is, him being in Adam. The second part speaks of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ, that is, what becomes of him when he is in Christ.

Michael

Offline soterion

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #47 on: Fri May 15, 2020 - 19:40:30 »
Buff,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Just want to share that verse. It's related to what Paul was saying in Romans 5:12-19. The first part speaks of the truth about what man is, him being in Adam. The second part speaks of the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ, that is, what becomes of him when he is in Christ.

Michael


We've discussed the passage before, and you still get it wrong.  ::smile::

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #48 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 01:27:44 »
We've discussed the passage before, and you still get it wrong.  ::smile::

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/do-toddlers-sin/msg1055123230/#msg1055123230
Yes, we did and you still remain in your error? :(

Would you say you were in Adam?

Would you say you are in Christ?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #49 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 04:12:18 »
Quote
Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world.

Just thinking out loud but maybe this is not completely true. Satan was thrown out of heaven and was placed in the world before Adam came alone as I understand it and was the source that encouraged Eve to sin therefore sin was in the world before Adam submitted to it.

Wow does that make any since or am I way out in left field here?

Just a little humble mind thinking out loud.

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #51 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 05:48:03 »
Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world. If Adam had never sinned, homosexuality—nor any other sin—would never have surfaced. True, “our sins fall squarely on our own shoulders,” but the genesis of sin originated “through one man”—Adam.
So, obviously, God should have started this whole thing out with someone else instead of Adam so that there would have been no sin in the world and Jesus would not have had to die. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #52 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:15:33 »
     Prior to Adam’s Fall, sin did not exist in the world.

Buff

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Yes, sin was outside the world or that it is not part of the created world. Sin only entered the world when Eve sinned and Adam sinned. That goes as well with death.

Offline GB

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #53 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 09:03:09 »
Just thinking out loud but maybe this is not completely true. Satan was thrown out of heaven and was placed in the world before Adam came alone as I understand it and was the source that encouraged Eve to sin therefore sin was in the world before Adam submitted to it.

Wow does that make any since or am I way out in left field here?

Just a little humble mind thinking out loud.

My thoughts exactly. If satan existed before Adam, then sin most certainly existed. There were some firsts though. Eve was the first HUMAN to be deceived by the "other religious voice". And Adam was the first HUMAN to be deceived by another Human.

Just me thinking out load Yogi, I find the "woman" also called the bride and also implied as the "church" in other places, was where satan attacked first. This woman was given to Adam by God. In like manner, Jesus was sent to a lost church, given him by God. "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus was also given a "woman" so to speak, but unlike Adam, HE didn't succumb to her influence. So satan went directly to Jesus after 30 years of trying to influence HIM by the lost sheep. satan didn't have to attack Adam directly, it just coerced Eve to do it's will and that was enough.

Fascinating study to be sure. I do agree that Adam didn't create sin, it existed long before the first human come to be.

Offline soterion

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Re: Adam’s Fall & One Of The Evil Results
« Reply #54 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 09:38:30 »
Just thinking out loud but maybe this is not completely true. Satan was thrown out of heaven and was placed in the world before Adam came alone as I understand it and was the source that encouraged Eve to sin therefore sin was in the world before Adam submitted to it.

Wow does that make any since or am I way out in left field here?

Just a little humble mind thinking out loud.

Paul's point isn't to specify the person who first sinned, which was Eve. His point is to get into a description of the comparisons and contrasts concerning the affects of Adam on the human race and of Jesus on the human race, Adam being a type or figure of Christ. That Eve sinned prior to Adam is beside the point in this context.

What does it mean that sin, and death through sin, entered the world? Some seem to envision a Pandora's Box affect, where Adam sinned and then all the sins of the devil flooded into the world. I don't buy it. It also doesn't mean that the entire human race was born in sin or were born sinners, the spread taking place at each person's conception or birth.

I have to believe, in keeping with the context, that whatever it means that grace and justification and eternal life have entered into the world through Jesus Christ and abounded to the many (5:15) and came to all men (5:18), so sin and death had entered into the world and came to all men.

How does sin and death "come to a man?" Paul said in verse 12 that death spread to all men because all sinned. This means that death takes place when a person sins. People are not born sinners nor are they/we born dead because of sin. We have to actually commit sin before death takes place, and the committing of sin is by means of giving in to temptation. In the same way how does grace and justification and eternal life abound to the many and come to all men? Through the exercise of faith upon hearing the gospel. In each and all of these situations, it is by choice that a person gives in to temptation and then either does or does not hear with faith so as to receive the gift of Jesus.

 

     
anything