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Offline segell

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2012, 07:47:42 AM »
As I read the Scriptures, works is not a bad word or idea nor should it be considered a negative.  Ephesians 2:10 tells us so.  We have been saved to do the works God has planned for us to do.

Works becomes something that God deplores when one performs/obeys/acts in a self centered way as to either earn or merit righteousness for salvation.  In other words, a work is wrong if performed for self instead of for God.  And there is a huge difference.  Zealous Jews relied on their ignorant belief that obedience to the Law was from where righteousness comes.  They did not look to the source of righteousness.  Not do we sometimes.

And all good meaning Christians who say that they do not do works for righteousness sake should pause.  I believe we have all fallen into that self-righteous trap is we're really honest with ourselves. 

The problem I have is when one preaches obedience and works for self righteous reasons.  That presents a terribly misplaced focus upon ourselves and then we move away from the cross and the source of our righteousness, Jesus Christ. 
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2012, 07:47:42 AM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2012, 10:03:53 AM »
As I read the Scriptures, works is not a bad word or idea nor should it be considered a negative.  Ephesians 2:10 tells us so.  We have been saved to do the works God has planned for us to do.

Eph 2:10 are good works for those that are already Christians, then there are obedient works for the sinner to do to become a Christian (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) where he then can do those foreknown good works Christians do.


Quote from: segell
Works becomes something that God deplores when one performs/obeys/acts in a self centered way as to either earn or merit righteousness for salvation.  In other words, a work is wrong if performed for self instead of for God.  And there is a huge difference.  Zealous Jews relied on their ignorant belief that obedience to the Law was from where righteousness comes.  They did not look to the source of righteousness.  Not do we sometimes.

I've seen no one here say works can merit salvation as the Jews thought they could do. Paul did not tell those Jews to "look to the source of righteousness" but told them to submit (obey) unto the righteoueness (commandments) of God.


Quote from: segell
And all good meaning Christians who say that they do not do works for righteousness sake should pause.  I believe we have all fallen into that self-righteous trap is we're really honest with ourselves. 


Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"


Abraham obeyed God in leaving his home, land and kindred and in offering Isaac.  Where is Abraham ever called "self-righteous' for his obedience to to God?  Where is ANYONE ever called "self-righteous" for obeying God's will?  NO ONE was ever called "self-righteous" for obeying God's will.  Those that did not obey were called "unrighteous" or simply referred to as "lost".

Quote from: segell
The problem I have is when one preaches obedience and works for self righteous reasons.  That presents a terribly misplaced focus upon ourselves and then we move away from the cross and the source of our righteousness, Jesus Christ. 


Psa 119:172 says all God's commandments are righteousness.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness, 2 Pet 2:5, a preacher of God commandments to an ungodly people.

Now who would accuse Noah of being a "preacher of self-righteousness"?





[Gospel still has a snag in his theology.]

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2012, 10:03:53 AM »

Offline segell

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2012, 11:07:37 AM »
As I read the Scriptures, works is not a bad word or idea nor should it be considered a negative.  Ephesians 2:10 tells us so.  We have been saved to do the works God has planned for us to do.

Eph 2:10 are good works for those that are already Christians, then there are obedient works for the sinner to do to become a Christian (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) where he then can do those foreknown good works Christians do.


Quote from: segell
Works becomes something that God deplores when one performs/obeys/acts in a self centered way as to either earn or merit righteousness for salvation.  In other words, a work is wrong if performed for self instead of for God.  And there is a huge difference.  Zealous Jews relied on their ignorant belief that obedience to the Law was from where righteousness comes.  They did not look to the source of righteousness.  Not do we sometimes.

I've seen no one here say works can merit salvation as the Jews thought they could do. Paul did not tell those Jews to "look to the source of righteousness" but told them to submit (obey) unto the righteoueness (commandments) of God.


Quote from: segell
And all good meaning Christians who say that they do not do works for righteousness sake should pause.  I believe we have all fallen into that self-righteous trap is we're really honest with ourselves. 


Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"


Abraham obeyed God in leaving his home, land and kindred and in offering Isaac.  Where is Abraham ever called "self-righteous' for his obedience to to God?  Where is ANYONE ever called "self-righteous" for obeying God's will?  NO ONE was ever called "self-righteous" for obeying God's will.  Those that did not obey were called "unrighteous" or simply referred to as "lost".

Quote from: segell
The problem I have is when one preaches obedience and works for self righteous reasons.  That presents a terribly misplaced focus upon ourselves and then we move away from the cross and the source of our righteousness, Jesus Christ. 


Psa 119:172 says all God's commandments are righteousness.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness, 2 Pet 2:5, a preacher of God commandments to an ungodly people.

Now who would accuse Noah of being a "preacher of self-righteousness"?





[Gospel still has a snag in his theology.]

Gomer -

With respect, you may not believe you are doing what the Jews did, but I'm not convinced by what you write and share here on the forum. 

If you make works (prior to being a Christian) works for the purpose of salvation, then - whether you know it or not - those works go against what Paul is writing about in Ephesians 2:8-9.  You might believe Paul is only referring to the Law, but again you have already stated that there is a NT Law of Christ that wasn't fulfilled by Him and must be fulfilled by us.  I believe that is works unto salvation and not what the Bible teaches.  Those things you say are necessary for a non-Christian to do in order to be saved (again, how does someone who does not love the Lord obey Him when the Bible says that one who loves Jesus obeys Him?) become the kind of works that are actually preached against in Scripture.

As for Abraham, he didn't obey God in order to be righteous, he obeyed because he trusted God.  Just as those who are in Christ obey.  But you have unbelievers working their way into the Kingdom by what THEY do instead of trusting in all of what Christ has done.  Gomer, you are bringing up another type of righteousness for salvation, a righteousness found in what a non-believer - one who is not in Christ - does.

Gomer, you keep bringing up what followers and truster in the living Creator do.  Their works are works as a result of whom they trust.  They were not done in order not to be lost but done because they knew and trusted in Almighty God.  There is a huge difference.  In fact, some didn't even really want to obey.  Noah, Abraham, Moses - they all questioned God's judgment, did they not?  They had dialog with Him.  But, because they trusted God, they humbly submitted to His commands - just as we do to the leading and teaching of Christ by the ministry of His Spirit.  Why?  To keep saved or because we are saved and love and trust Him?  Which is it for you? 

Do the sermons you hear on Sunday teach a "woe unto you if you don't obey" view of Christianity or does it preach the complete sufficiency of Jesus Christ and out of His sufficiency and righteousness, mercy and grace we follow and desire to obey? 

Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2012, 11:07:37 AM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2012, 12:25:10 PM »
Quote from: segell

Gomer -

With respect, you may not believe you are doing what the Jews did, but I'm not convinced by what you write and share here on the forum. 

Then you are truly mixed up about this for I have consistently said what the bible says that being the Jews were lost for not having submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God, that is, they had not obeyed the gospel by believing and confessing with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10.  The Jews submitting unto the righteousness of God is not the same as Jews doing thier own righteousness, doing their own works of merit.

You apparently do not see the difference between doing GOD'S righteousness and doing YOUR OWN righteousness.  You must think they are both the same when they are not and therein is where your confusion lies.


Quote from: segell
If you make works (prior to being a Christian) works for the purpose of salvation, then - whether you know it or not - those works go against what Paul is writing about in Ephesians 2:8-9.  You might believe Paul is only referring to the Law, but again you have already stated that there is a NT Law of Christ that wasn't fulfilled by Him and must be fulfilled by us.  I believe that is works unto salvation and not what the Bible teaches.  Those things you say are necessary for a non-Christian to do in order to be saved (again, how does someone who does not love the Lord obey Him when the Bible says that one who loves Jesus obeys Him?) become the kind of works that are actually preached against in Scripture.

Paul said for by grace are ye saved through faith.  Here it takes a combination of God's grace and man's faith to be saved and NT faith is a work, therefore "not of works" does not include the NT work of faith but refers to works of merit as the Jews were doing in Rom 10:3.


Eph 2:8-----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21--------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>save

Since there is but only one way to be saved then the Ephesians' faith must have included obedience in being baptized.


Quote from: segell
As for Abraham, he didn't obey God in order to be righteous, he obeyed because he trusted God.  Just as those who are in Christ obey.  But you have unbelievers working their way into the Kingdom by what THEY do instead of trusting in all of what Christ has done.  Gomer, you are bringing up another type of righteousness for salvation, a righteousness found in what a non-believer - one who is not in Christ - does.

One is not reckoned righteous till they do righteousness.  Yes, Abraham trusted God but trust without obedience is distrust.  Could it be said Abraham trusted God if he had not taken Isaac out to offer him to God but instead did nothing?  No, for not obeying would have shown distrust in God.

Quote from: segell
Gomer, you keep bringing up what followers and truster in the living Creator do.  Their works are works as a result of whom they trust.  They were not done in order not to be lost but done because they knew and trusted in Almighty God.  There is a huge difference.  In fact, some didn't even really want to obey.  Noah, Abraham, Moses - they all questioned God's judgment, did they not?  They had dialog with Him.  But, because they trusted God, they humbly submitted to His commands - just as we do to the leading and teaching of Christ by the ministry of His Spirit.  Why?  To keep saved or because we are saved and love and trust Him?  Which is it for you?


You continue to say one is first saved then he obeys, which means one must be saved in his disobedience.  There is not a single example  in the bible of anyone being saved while in disobedience to God, they all first had to obey.

You already brought up Abraham. It was AFTER Abraham obeyed that the angel of the Lord said "...Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.", Gen 22:12.

Notice that God did not say "now I know" BEFORE Abraham offered Isaac but AFTER.



Quote from: segell
Do the sermons you hear on Sunday teach a "woe unto you if you don't obey" view of Christianity or does it preach the complete sufficiency of Jesus Christ and out of His sufficiency and righteousness, mercy and grace we follow and desire to obey? 



2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

There is a "woe" to them that "obey not", and eternal life unto them that do obey, Heb 5:9.  And God, who cannot lie, will for certain keep these two promises.  Is this ever taught where you attend?

If the minister where I am at ever taught that one is reckoned righteous by God BEFORE he obeys, that is, somehow reckoned righteous while still in unrighteousness, he would be taught the truth on the issue or fired or something else.....

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2012, 12:25:10 PM »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline gospel

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2012, 01:15:03 PM »
Quote
One is not reckoned righteous till they do righteousness.
 


WRONG!
COMPLETELY WRONG,
ABSOLUTELY WRONG...ANOTHER GOSPEL!!!


Romans 4:3
New International Version (©1984)
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

New Living Translation (©2007)
For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."

English Standard Version (©2001)
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2012, 01:15:03 PM »



Online Jaime

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2012, 01:19:03 PM »
Of course, getting wet without the heart thing is just getting wet. Even us so called legalists know that. Me taking a professing atheist down and dunking him ceremonially in water accomplishes nothing, but get us both wet.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2012, 01:19:03 PM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2012, 01:28:04 PM »
Of course, getting wet without the heart thing is just getting wet. Even us so called legalists know that. Me taking a professing atheist down and dunking him ceremonially in water does nothing.

They mentally assent to it...

But in reality their number one concern and greatest priority is whether or not a person is baptized

Hence in churches where they attend ...everyone is baptized, if not they are ostracized

To be a part of a fellowship and community of believers who profess baptism as a means of obtaining forgiveness requires you place your trust in baptism for your means of forgiveness over and above the shed blood of Jesus which is alone the sole basis for forgiveness

Therein lies the root of the error and the confusion, placing a work of man in the place of Jesus work

It's cleverly subtle and cunningly confusing for even the most astute student of the Word but it is nevertheless deception entrenched and encrusted in religiosity and steeped in religious tradition  ::reading:: 
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2012, 01:37:33 PM »
Of course, getting wet without the heart thing is just getting wet. Even us so called legalists know that. Me taking a professing atheist down and dunking him ceremonially in water does nothing.

They mentally assent to it...

But in reality their number one concern and greatest priority is whether or not a person is baptized

Hence in churches where they attend ...everyone is baptized, if not they are ostracized

To be a part of a fellowship and community of believers who profess baptism as a means of obtaining forgiveness requires you place your trust in baptism for your means of forgiveness over and above the shed blood of Jesus which is alone the sole basis for forgiveness

Therein lies the root of the error and the confusion, placing a work of man in the place of Jesus work

It's cleverly subtle and cunningly confusing for even the most astute student of the Word but it is nevertheless deception entrenched and encrusted in religiosity and steeped in religious tradition  ::reading:: 

In my mind, baptism is the dropping of my resistance and totally submitting in a public way. Nothing about IT is trusted in. I remember when I first believed, I still had a certain level of pride and arrogance and resistance to submit to something as "public" as baptism. That was a rebellious spirit in me that melted away in the waters of baptism. Was I saved 10 minutes before the water, or 10 months before the water, I can't say. I just know that I felt that my acceptance was complete when I came out of the water, not because of the water, but because scripture taught me that I would come up out of the waters of baptism a new creature. Are there people that place too much trust in baptism? There probably is. I just haven't met them in the congregations I attend.

I have not witnessed a ceremonial wetting of a non-believing person. Has it happened. I would imagine so and it would be tragic.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

Offline gospel

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2012, 04:40:31 PM »
Of course, getting wet without the heart thing is just getting wet. Even us so called legalists know that. Me taking a professing atheist down and dunking him ceremonially in water does nothing.

They mentally assent to it...

But in reality their number one concern and greatest priority is whether or not a person is baptized

Hence in churches where they attend ...everyone is baptized, if not they are ostracized

To be a part of a fellowship and community of believers who profess baptism as a means of obtaining forgiveness requires you place your trust in baptism for your means of forgiveness over and above the shed blood of Jesus which is alone the sole basis for forgiveness

Therein lies the root of the error and the confusion, placing a work of man in the place of Jesus work

It's cleverly subtle and cunningly confusing for even the most astute student of the Word but it is nevertheless deception entrenched and encrusted in religiosity and steeped in religious tradition  ::reading:: 

In my mind, baptism is the dropping of my resistance and totally submitting in a public way. Nothing about IT is trusted in. I remember when I first believed, I still had a certain level of pride and arrogance and resistance to submit to something as "public" as baptism. That was a rebellious spirit in me that melted away in the waters of baptism. Was I saved 10 minutes before the water, or 10 months before the water, I can't say. I just know that I felt that my acceptance was complete when I came out of the water, not because of the water, but because scripture taught me that I would come up out of the waters of baptism a new creature. Are there people that place too much trust in baptism? There probably is. I just haven't met them in the congregations I attend.

I have not witnessed a ceremonial wetting of a non-believing person. Has it happened. I would imagine so and it would be tragic.

So through Baptism do you believe you born of Water?
You believe Baptism changed you?
You believe Baptism saved you?
You believe Baptism made you complete?
You believe Baptism is how you were forgiven?

So do you think....Peter, John and the other Apostles got baptized anew after they met Jesus or do you think John's baptism accomplished the same thing as Jesus baptism?

And do you think Jesus baptism is the same as John's?

Yet another new thread?  ::shrug::


"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Acts 20:27

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2012, 04:40:31 PM »

Offline segell

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2012, 05:05:01 PM »
As I read the Scriptures, works is not a bad word or idea nor should it be considered a negative.  Ephesians 2:10 tells us so.  We have been saved to do the works God has planned for us to do.

Eph 2:10 are good works for those that are already Christians, then there are obedient works for the sinner to do to become a Christian (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) where he then can do those foreknown good works Christians do.


Quote from: segell
Works becomes something that God deplores when one performs/obeys/acts in a self centered way as to either earn or merit righteousness for salvation.  In other words, a work is wrong if performed for self instead of for God.  And there is a huge difference.  Zealous Jews relied on their ignorant belief that obedience to the Law was from where righteousness comes.  They did not look to the source of righteousness.  Not do we sometimes.

I've seen no one here say works can merit salvation as the Jews thought they could do. Paul did not tell those Jews to "look to the source of righteousness" but told them to submit (obey) unto the righteoueness (commandments) of God.


Quote from: segell
And all good meaning Christians who say that they do not do works for righteousness sake should pause.  I believe we have all fallen into that self-righteous trap is we're really honest with ourselves.  


Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"


Abraham obeyed God in leaving his home, land and kindred and in offering Isaac.  Where is Abraham ever called "self-righteous' for his obedience to to God?  Where is ANYONE ever called "self-righteous" for obeying God's will?  NO ONE was ever called "self-righteous" for obeying God's will.  Those that did not obey were called "unrighteous" or simply referred to as "lost".

Quote from: segell
The problem I have is when one preaches obedience and works for self righteous reasons.  That presents a terribly misplaced focus upon ourselves and then we move away from the cross and the source of our righteousness, Jesus Christ.  


Psa 119:172 says all God's commandments are righteousness.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness, 2 Pet 2:5, a preacher of God commandments to an ungodly people.

Now who would accuse Noah of being a "preacher of self-righteousness"?





[Gospel still has a snag in his theology.]

Gomer -

I think we're talking right past one another.  You and I have no disagreement that Christians are called to obey.  You are correct when you say that the examples of obedience through faith/trust in God are not declared self-righteous.  In fact, as I've stated time and time again, that is why we have been saved - to obey and do the works God has set before us.  Are we in agreement so far?

Now, where you and I may have a distinction between our understandings is why God has called us to obedience.  Some, perhaps you, might suggest that God demands our obedience because without it we will be lost.  You see, I don't think that is a correct perception of the purpose of our obedience.  And this is why:

I believe God knows we need obedience.  And I believe He knows those who have been saved by His grace and are being transformed into His image will desire to obey Him.  Why?  Because we love Him so much.  We understand that He first loved us.  We understand how much we are loved and how much we are forgiven.  (Remember Jesus saying that a person forgiven little loves little?)  And lastly, Jesus tells us in John 15 that the purpose of our obedience is so that our joy may be made complete.

Is that ever preached on Sunday?  

It's one of the keys to understanding how our relationship with God becomes more and more deep and intimate.  Jesus is telling us why He is obedient to His Father.  Do you think He obeyed for any other reason than He loved and trusted His heavenly Father?  His joy, by even obeying His Father until a gruesome death on a cross, was made complete.  Yes, He agonized over dying on the cross.  But He obeyed.  Not His will, but the Father's will.  It is in that deep joy and satisfaction of knowing Christ that we strive and desire to obey Him.  At least that should be the reason.  Otherwise it is just a matter of works righteousness going on.

What is the reason you desire to obey God, Gomer?

Do you trust in Jesus' righteousness for your righteousness apart from any work you do in obedience to Him?  I think that is the key to abiding in God's grace.  We rest there not in our doing, since what we are doing is merely the work He has set out for us and through the strength given to us by His Spirit.

Anyway, I think we've beaten this poor old horse to death.  Please feel free to have the last word.

May God lavish His blessings on you.

Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2012, 05:05:01 PM »

Offline segell

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2012, 08:38:29 AM »
By the way, happy belated birthday, Gomer!
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2012, 02:56:13 PM »
Of course, getting wet without the heart thing is just getting wet. Even us so called legalists know that. Me taking a professing atheist down and dunking him ceremonially in water does nothing.

They mentally assent to it...

But in reality their number one concern and greatest priority is whether or not a person is baptized

Hence in churches where they attend ...everyone is baptized, if not they are ostracized

To be a part of a fellowship and community of believers who profess baptism as a means of obtaining forgiveness requires you place your trust in baptism for your means of forgiveness over and above the shed blood of Jesus which is alone the sole basis for forgiveness

Therein lies the root of the error and the confusion, placing a work of man in the place of Jesus work

It's cleverly subtle and cunningly confusing for even the most astute student of the Word but it is nevertheless deception entrenched and encrusted in religiosity and steeped in religious tradition  ::reading::  

In my mind, baptism is the dropping of my resistance and totally submitting in a public way. Nothing about IT is trusted in. I remember when I first believed, I still had a certain level of pride and arrogance and resistance to submit to something as "public" as baptism. That was a rebellious spirit in me that melted away in the waters of baptism. Was I saved 10 minutes before the water, or 10 months before the water, I can't say. I just know that I felt that my acceptance was complete when I came out of the water, not because of the water, but because scripture taught me that I would come up out of the waters of baptism a new creature. Are there people that place too much trust in baptism? There probably is. I just haven't met them in the congregations I attend.

I have not witnessed a ceremonial wetting of a non-believing person. Has it happened. I would imagine so and it would be tragic.

So through Baptism do you believe you born of Water?
You believe Baptism changed you?
You believe Baptism saved you?
You believe Baptism made you complete?
You believe Baptism is how you were forgiven?

So do you think....Peter, John and the other Apostles got baptized anew after they met Jesus or do you think John's baptism accomplished the same thing as Jesus baptism?

And do you think Jesus baptism is the same as John's?

Yet another new thread?  ::shrug::




I believe when my stubborness and wall of rebellion dropped and I submitted to be water baptized that I was changed. According to scripture I received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Was I counted as saved 5 minutes before I was dunked, or 10 minutes or what, I can't say. I am not saying the water did any of it, I am saying submission to the command was part of my acceptance of the free gift. The gift is still just as glorious, magnificent and unattainable by my efforts as it ever was.  I have been to many pools and water parks and all these other occasions of getting wet did nothing. God did something TO me in the process of my faith response. That is key. GOD DID IT TO ME. I did non of it. Which we non-hydrophobics have always said that God does the work in water baptism. It is NOT any of us.  It's that old semantics and perspective again, not an assault on Grace.

As someone else asked on one of these myriad of Grace conspiracy threads, would the Jews at Pentecost have been saved had they not obeyed in repentence and baptism? As I have said before, I don't know and can't say the micro moment of salvation's conveyance. I do believe it would have been awkward, if not outright rebellion if the Jews at Pentecost had tipped their hat at Peter when he told them what they must do and walked away thinking that we'll come back in a month or two when it is convenient, surely God will be OK with that, what is he a stickler or something? Would the water have saved them had they not repented and just went through with the water baptism because they didn't want to upset Peter, but were not repentent in the least? No.

No Johns baptism was not the same as Jesus'. In Jesus' baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit is bestowed as Peter said. Of course it was bestowed as tongues of fire on the head of the disciples on Pentecost. I have not heard of any reports of that happening since then, though it does fulfill Jesus's statement about baptism of fire.

As you know there are several incidents of water baptism much later than Pentecost and certainly after Jesus's statement. I believe they were very much Christian baptisms and not John's baptism, just because H20 was involved. Even Paul was baptized and I believe it was in water because no one can conjure up the Holy Spirit baptism upon the command to be baptized. It is something that comes upon, not something that one can DO as a response to a command.

I would have no trouble believing that the Apostles et al got baptized anew after they underwent John's baptism.  
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 03:39:25 PM by Jaime »
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Offline Gomer

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #117 on: March 04, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »
Quote from: gospel


WRONG!
COMPLETELY WRONG,
ABSOLUTELY WRONG...ANOTHER GOSPEL!!!


Romans 4:3
New International Version (©1984)
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

New Living Translation (©2007)
For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."

English Standard Version (©2001)
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Offline segell

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2012, 08:04:30 AM »
Gomer, according to this site, you just celebrated your 81st birthday.  Congratulations!

My question is this, in your life, have you done enough to be saved?

Thanks.
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Offline Gomer

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Re: Addicted to Law, Afraid of Grace
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2012, 02:19:44 PM »
Gomer, according to this site, you just celebrated your 81st birthday.  Congratulations!

My question is this, in your life, have you done enough to be saved?

Thanks.

It is Jim "Gomer" Nabors that is 81.....not me.

All God required of me to be put in a saved position was to believe, Jn 3:16; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10;32,33; and be bpatized, Mk 16;16 and yes, I have done that.  To stay in that saved position and overcome requires that I be "faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" and "keepeth my works unto the end" ,Rev 2:10,26.