Author Topic: An Introduction to Romans 14  (Read 3174 times)

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Offline julie danley

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 22:18:57 »
Bob, thank you for your eloquent thoughts!  It is so right that joy is not a feeling...just as our thoughts on freedom are not based on feelings.  That chapter throws lots of people.  They are not sure what to do with it...Many ask who is the weak one and who is the strong one?  
grace, Julie

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 22:18:57 »

Offline janine

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 07:37:49 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Posted on Feb. 08 2003,5:54

I have trouble reconciling vs 16 & 22.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]  
16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. [/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]  
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.[/quote]  



Verse 16 sounds like it's telling me to speak up about what I believe, but 22 says to keep it between myself and God.  Can someone help me with this?

Never[/quote]

To me, it always balanced itself out, one thrust against the other.

Seems like I'm being told to not rock the boat unnecessarily, to not jab and push and ridicule the brother weaker than myself with my new-fangled ideas; I'm not to push him faster than he can go for the sake of my own preferences or even my comfort.

On the other hand... it sounds as if I'm not to sit back, self-satisfied, with my deeper or truer understanding, never bothering to try to share anything; and it sounds as if I must speak up to try to explain, and even defend, my deeper/better/alternate insight, if it becomes a focus for attack or ridicule from folks who ought to know better by now.

That's just how it plays out in my own head.  Hopefully that's not too wacky an interpretation.



[!--EDIT|janine|Feb. 09 2003,02:38--]

Offline Booty

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #2 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 20:12:37 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nevertheless @ Feb. 09 2003,00:54)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have trouble reconciling vs 16 & 22.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.[/quote]


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. [/quote]


Verse 16 sounds like it's telling me to speak up about what I believe, but 22 says to keep it between myself and God.  Can someone help me with this?

Never[/quote]
I am sorry Never, I rteally should have responded to you first.

My opinion is putting 16 back into it's context the reconcilliation becomes easy.

Try this, Paul said he ate meat, yes?  Ok, so eating meat to him was good, but what if he were to sit down in front of one his veggie brothers gnawing on a bloody haunch like we see in the films of england where they all gather with their flagons of ale, (Very uncivilized people, the english!! ;) ) Then would not his eating meat become something rather vile?

So then in 22 isn't Paul saying, Do not flaunt it?

How's that?

Oh and excuse me the graphic illustration of english bad manners!! :crackup:  :noddingsmiley:

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #2 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 20:12:37 »

Offline janine

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 08:39:45 »
It's not good natured ribbing.  It's foul grumpy ribbing.  He really feels growly towards those darn Brits.  

Where the bit of good nature comes in is that he knows this ill-feeling can flare up into something sinful if he doesn't keep on subjecting it to the Lord's better feelings.  He's gotta rein it in before it reigns over him.

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 08:39:45 »

Offline Bobby Valentine

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 15:47:54 »
Bob thanks for the great exposition of Romans 14.  That is a text that many wish was not in the Bible.  I recently read over Mike Armour's exegesis he presented to the Restoration Forum (a few years ago).  Needless to say I am in complete agreement with you.  Thanks for helping to focus my thoughts on that text.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 15:47:54 »



Offline Nevertheless

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 19:45:25 »
Well, Booty, God's Spirit must be doing a very good job with you.  Yes, I can sense that your Brit humor is rooted in real feelings.  But the \"feeling\" I get from your posts is not bitterness or rancor, but those things sort of turned inside out.  I believe that God delights in taking the worst and weakest in what we have to offer Him and transforming it into a thing of strength and beauty.

Never

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 19:45:25 »

Offline Barb1957

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #6 on: Tue Feb 11, 2003 - 11:41:06 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nevertheless @ Feb. 10 2003,8:13)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have no problem discussing music with someone who says that accapella is better or more pleasing to God than instrumental. ?They are simply stating their opinion. ?But when someone says that instruments in worship are evil or sinful they are denigrating what I believe to be holy and pleasing to God.

So, based on Romans 14, what should I do?[/quote]
I think you should continue including instruments in your worship to God, and let the brother who believes in acapella only music in worship to continue worshipping God in that way.
If I apply what I believe the Romans 14 principle is, neither you nor your brother is to condemn the other. You offer your worship to God to the best of your ability, and your brother does the same. If you are each worshipping to please the Lord, that is what matters.  

Of course when the other brother is accusing you, by association, of entertaining evil by using instruments in worship, that's another matter. Perhaps when it comes to that, you could politely tell that person that while you respect their decision to keep strictly to acapella music in worship, you believe that instrumental music is also pleasing to God and that you think calling instrumental music \"evil\" is harsh and unscriptural.  Remind them that God's kingdom isn't about these disputable matters that aren't clearly spelled out in scripture; rather, it's about living in goodness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Then whip out a guitar and ask them to join you in a few rounds of Kum Ba Ya! :crackup:

Offline winky

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #7 on: Tue Feb 11, 2003 - 16:44:45 »
Good thought, Booty. I hadn't considered that angle. So, it's like \"Don't use the freedom you have (and know to be good) to tear down someone else, causing them to speak evil of your freedom.\" Is that the basic gist of your thought? Very interesting.

Wendy

Offline Booty

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 12, 2003 - 13:07:51 »
No thank the Lord that we have a place where we can come together and share in love and respect. I cannot begin to sya the times just reading the interchanges here has caused lamps to light in my head and suddenly have passages make sense to me.

Personally I believe free interchange such as we have here is so much better than preaching and sermons, but I do not think even this radical group where I am is quite ready to toss the pulpit just yet!! :whatisthat:  :priest:

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 12, 2003 - 13:07:51 »

Offline janine

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 12:47:20 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Seems like I'm being told to not rock the boat unnecessarily, to not jab and push and ridicule the brother weaker than myself with my new-fangled ideas; I'm not to push him faster than he can go for the sake of my own preferences or even my comfort.[/quote]
and
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Perhaps when it comes to that, you could politely tell that person that while you respect their decision...[/quote]
and[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's not my job to keep everyone else's behavior in line, just my own![/quote]

Sounds like we've provided you a ready-made short sermon, Booty.

Since now you don't have to work quite as hard to put together Sunday's sermon, use the time to think up something special for Sandi re: St. Valentine's Day tomorrow (if you don't mind a pagan excuse to \"show ya looooove\").

Offline janine

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« Reply #10 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 16:01:19 »
Wood fire pizza, as in snooty hoity-toity special gourmet pay-extra-for-it woodfire pizza, like you can get in New Orleans?

Or romantic (and much less expensive) smoke-it-yourself pizza?


Hey, we practiced not letting our good be ill spoken of last night in Bible class...

Mike knew choppy waters might ensue if he brought up the Hebrew saying \"elohim\" while the Septuagint (& rabbinic tradition?) say some variation of \"angels\",

(in the Hebrews 2 references to Psalm 8)

re: man being made a little/a little while lower than the angels/lower than God.

But, he did it anyway.  He shouldn't get his hopes up like that, that people might see his position.

The elder teaching heard him partially out... Mike pointed out that the original/Hebrew text had \"elohim\", but that all through the Gospels Jesus and others quoted the Septuagint, even though that translation wasn't perfect.

I mean, there is a bit of difference between \"angels\" and \"God\".  Shall we go to Genesis & say \"In the beginning the angels created the Heavens and the Earth... Let us make\" etc.?  We need to be consistent, don't we?

So, the point Mike hoped to make was that we don't need to be in sweaty agonies over differing translations.  A little honest study, a little attention to Scripture as a whole, and we can get the gist of essential things we need.  Even if you don't have the opinion that the Holy Spirit will help you learn of God, that ought to be a comforting idea.

All the rest of Scripture we can devote our lives to, for the joy of deeper study and to let our iron countenance sharpen another man's iron countenance (ha!).

But the teacher would have none of it; didn't care that to insist on \"angels\" there might open a can of worms later.  He said that the Holy Spirit inspired the Hebrew writer to quote the Greek OT, so \"angels\" must be the correct translation.

So did he mean that the Holy Spirit was wrong in the Hebrew text when He said \"elohim\"/God?

Throw in the plural character of \"elohim\" & you've got a nice little pile of worms for tha can.  Make it say that man had been a little lower than the gods?  

Anyway, perhaps because he didn't want to bore the rest of the class with Mike's boring points... (Surely everyone really waslonging to get back into the previous discussion of the tricks of Bible study with Penteconstals...)

He closed that part of the discussion with \"We can pick whichever word we want it to be, there.\"  No discussion or study about which is the better choice; no looking at the logical conclusions you have to draw re: various translations today being just fine, if you insist that the translation (Septuagint) was more right than the original Hebrew OT.

Just \"We can pick whichever word we like right there\".

Ooookay.  Can I pick whichever word I like in all the other places that require research?

It might seem like a real small point (and it certainly took me long enough to write about such a short happening!  Sorry 'bout that!), but it's as if the teacher had no idea what he himself said.

So, Mike let it drop.

He made sure, a few verses later, when he could raise a point where he agreed thoroughly with the teacher, he did.  Smoothed any leftover ruffly feathers.

Maybe if we'd get another hurricane or something we could get back to the activities that do not cause us to irritate each other.

Offline janine

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #11 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 20:17:52 »
I don't think he'd hesitate to tackle it at all.

Maybe he'd save it for a day Mike was absent, though.  It'd go down smoother.

Offline nerdneh

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #12 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 22:03:07 »
I find myself in Romans 14 again; puzzling through Paul's insights. Here I attempt an overview of some basic ideas:

Strong and Weak
Romans 14, the strong and the weak:
No person can make his faith the norm for others who are seeking to serve Christ. In Romans 14, a process is ongoing in which the weak believe uniformity can be achieved by enforcing their rigorous laws and making them binding on brothers and sisters. They do this because their conscience is weak and inexperienced. Lacking a robust faith, they believe denial and avoidance best serve God. The weak are heavy on judgment and quick to assume a stronger brother or sister is wrong. However, they are more open to the actions of the strong than they realize.
They are easily tempted to go astray though when they observe a strong brother or sister engaging in activities they feel is wrong. Instead of using a “weak brother

Offline Nevertheless

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #13 on: Sat Feb 08, 2003 - 22:54:58 »
I have trouble reconciling vs 16 & 22.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.[/quote]


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. [/quote]


Verse 16 sounds like it's telling me to speak up about what I believe, but 22 says to keep it between myself and God.  Can someone help me with this?

Never

Offline Booty

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An Introduction to Romans 14
« Reply #14 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 20:02:29 »
Ach and this is not fair!!   My sermon today was Romans 14 for a combined service of Clarines, Pueblo Viejo and Puerto Piritu. As we also had a baptism that all have been waiting for anxiously, MIRVIDA IS OUR NEW SISTER!!!! WE THOUGHT SHE WOULD NEVER COME TO THE WATER!!, we celebrated with a grill here in Piritu. Now with the travel difficulties and all, I did not get on the web until just now and here if I don't find this wee thread just starting with a great insight by Bob to lead it off!!  Ach and Bob, you are one day late!! you are!!

Romans, a book where I personally believe we see a more mature Paul with a better developed message, still every bit as passionate, but tempered with a certain tolerance and less given to strong confrontation. Chapter 14 where I believe we see clearly a very wise and sage exhortation by Paul for tolerance.

I have always referred to this chapter as the infinite onion of Paul. You can continue peeling off layers of profundity for as long as you have breath in you.  

It is so sad when I see vss 13-15 being used to bind commandments of men on others, even being done long distance! I am sorry, but there is absolutely no way that Brojees sitting down to Sunday dinner with my wife and drinking a glass of Burgundy is causing my weaker sister in the faith in County Tyrone to trip and fall into sin.

In any event, allow me to share my notes in my form of sermon outlining. (I know it is strange, but so am I!! I always give myself my scripture quotes in Spanish, bear with me.)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Set context:
Rome as a cultural, political and commercial center of the time with many cultures represented there.

Paul not having visited Rome prior to writing the epistle, but with an apparent knowledge of many there and the practices and problems.

Probable presence of gentile and jewish Christians both and probable difference in practices stemming from this.

Vs 1 Recibid al débil en la fe, pero no para contender sobre opiniones.

Establish that there are different degrees of faith, while it is indeed the same journey, we are at different points on the lane. Establish that none are \"better\" than others, Reinforce with Matt 20 13-16
13.  Pero Él respondió y dijo a uno de ellos: \"Amigo, no te hago ninguna injusticia. ¿No conviniste conmigo en un denario?
 14.  Toma lo que es tuyo y vete. Pero quiero darle a este último como a ti.
 15.  ¿No me es lícito hacer lo que quiero con lo mío? ¿O tienes envidia porque soy bueno?\"
 16.  Así, los últimos serán primeros, y los primeros últimos.

Emphacize that if we do indeed consider ourselves \"Stronger\" in the faith, then we should be very careful of a sinful Pride in this supposed greater strength.

Cheeking one for his beliefs is in no way complying with our commandment to love our neighbour. And if you are indeed stronger in the faith, then you certainly cannot teach by cheeking.

Recognize that men disagree on some points of tradition and customs.  \"opiniones\" Establish that these are not points of salvation, but tradition.

vs 2-3   Porque uno cree que puede comer de todo, y el débil come sólo verduras.
   El que come no menosprecie al que no come, y el que no come no juzgue al que come; porque Dios le ha recibido.

Explain possibilities of the Meat issue
Meat sacrificed to pagan idols and later sold as food.Pork?
Clean/Unclean?
Kosher?
Handled by Pagans?

Discuss pride issue of the \"Strong\" brother looking down on the \"Weaker\" Touch again on who will be the greatest.

Judging!!  Matthew 7
 1.  \"No juzguéis, para que no seáis juzgados.

 vs 4.  Tú, ¿quién eres que juzgas al criado ajeno? Para su propio señor está en pie o cae; pero será afirmado, porque poderoso es el Señor para afirmarle.

Emphacize \"su propio señor está en pie o cae\"  When we judge we assume equality with God. We usurp His role and totally deny Christ. Why would we need a saviour, a sacrificial Lamb if we are equal to God and have the power to judge? We are not another man's master!!

vss 5-6
Mientras que uno hace diferencia entre día y día, otro juzga iguales todos los días. Cada uno esté convencido en su propia mente.
 El que hace caso del día, para el Señor lo hace. El que come, para el Señor come, porque da gracias a Dios; y el que no come, para el Señor no come, y da gracias a Dios.

Discuss possibility of different days of worship for gentile and jewish backgrounds.

Establish importance of motive and conviction.
Do nothing of idle mischief like a pooka.
Do nothing solely based on what your fellow man thinks.
What you do, do because you hanoestly believe it to be correct before God.

vss 7-9
Porque ninguno de nosotros vive para sí, y ninguno muere para sí.
Pues si vivimos, para el Señor vivimos; y si morimos, para el Señor morimos. Así que, sea que vivamos o que muramos, somos del Señor.
Porque Cristo para esto murió y vivió, para ser el Señor así de los muertos como de los que viven.

Who is the boss here? I know it is not me, and I know it is not you. The Boss here is Christ Jesus!! We are His!

vss 10-12
Pero tú, ¿por qué juzgas a tu hermano? O tú también, ¿por qué menosprecias a tu hermano? Pues todos compareceremos ante el tribunal de Dios,
porque está escrito: Vivo yo, dice el Señor, que ante mí se doblará toda rodilla, y toda lengua confesará a Dios.
De manera que cada uno de nosotros rendirá cuenta a Dios de sí mismo.

Matthew 7:1 \"No juzguéis, para que no seáis juzgados.\"

Each of us will give account to Him and Him alone. I expect noone will give account to me, nor would I ever want them to. I have neither the wisdom nor the knowledge to judge my fellow man, I am not GOD!!

Preface vss 13-15 with the danger of using this to bind our brothers to our opinions with absurd conclusions that our stronger brother could trip us up by doing what he is convinced before God to be correct in the privacy of his home or in his own congregation.

vss 13-15
Así que, no nos juzguemos más los unos a los otros; más bien, determinad no poner tropiezo, impedimento u obstáculo al hermano.
Yo sé, y estoy persuadido en el Señor Jesús, que nada hay inmundo en sí; pero para aquel que estima que algo es inmundo, para Él sí lo es.
Pues si por causa de la comida tu hermano es contristado, ya no andas conforme al amor. No arruines por tu comida a aquel por quien Cristo murió.

Discuss what is truly tripping our brother.

Discuss CONFRONTATION, in particular confrontation solely for the sake of confrontation.

Discuss our duty to teach, the failure of lessons which are presented not to teach but to glorify the teacher....Sinful PRIDE
Show where Paul clearly stated that  \"que nada hay inmundo en sí\"  But he still knowing that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat, taught that when our brother considers it wrong, for him it is wrong... EMPHACIZE How do we love our brother then by confronting him with that he is convinced to be wrong for him?

Many of us do not attend the bull fights because the violence offends us, but have we the right to deny others what is an accepted cultural reality? Others enjoy the pageantry and do not empathize with the bull recognizing that he will be slaughtered in any event, should they therefore force everyone to attend bull fights?

Discuss as well though that as Paul commenced the lesson, we are not to condemn our stronger brother who is convinced that eating the meat is acceptable in the eyes of our Lord. If our brother is not eating the meat in our faces, but discreetly out of our vision, just our possible knowledge of this is not enough to convict him and we have neither right nor duty to judge.

vs 16  Por tanto, no dejéis que se hable mal de lo que para vosotros es bueno;

Establish that when we do something inconsiderately of our brothers sensitivities, solely to confront, we have taken something that in normal circumstances would be acceptable and made it unacceptable in the eyes of the Lord.

You may accept a cup of wine with dinner, but swigging from the bottle and belching in your non drinking neighbours face is simply gross and confrontational.

vss 17-19
porque el reino de Dios no es comida ni bebida, sino justicia, paz y gozo en el Espíritu Santo.
Porque el que en esto sirve a Cristo, agrada a Dios y es aprobado por los hombres.
Así que, sigamos lo que contribuye a la paz y a la mutua edificación.

Establish Jesus does desire UNITY

Matthew 12:25 Pero como Jesús conocía sus pensamientos, les dijo: --Todo reino dividido contra sí mismo está arruinado. Y ninguna ciudad o casa dividida contra sí misma permanecerá. .  

Establish that it is in mutual respect that we can maintain unity.
Establish the folly of uniformity and the diversity of the apostles and the church from the beginning.    
Establish Paul's clear plea for tolerance leading to unity in the church.

vss20-21
No destruyas la obra de Dios por causa de la comida. A la verdad, todas las cosas son limpias; pero es malo que un hombre cause tropiezo por su comida.
 Bueno es no comer carne, ni beber vino, ni hacer nada en que tropiece tu hermano.

Establish our priority which is our work for the Lord.

Matthew 28:18-20
 Jesús se acercó a ellos y les habló diciendo: \"Toda autoridad me ha sido dada en el cielo y en la tierra.
Por tanto, id y haced discípulos a todas las naciones, bautizándoles en el nombre del Padre, del Hijo y del Espíritu Santo,
 y enseñándoles que guarden todas las cosas que os he mandado. Y he aquí, yo estoy con vosotros todos los días, hasta el fin del mundo.\"

Arguing over a cup of wine simply has no part in this! There are more important tasks toi occupy our time.

vss 22-23
 La fe que tú tienes, tenla para contigo mismo delante de Dios. Dichoso el que no se condena a sí mismo con lo que aprueba.
 Pero el que duda al respecto, es condenado si come, porque no lo hace con fe. Pues todo lo que no proviene de fe es pecado.

Drinking our cup of wine becomes sinful when we use it to confront our brother. Respect that when our brother truly thinks something to be sinful, then for him it is indeed sinful!!  Do not flaunt, \"ostenar\", your \"Stronger\" faith because this is indeed sinful pride.


Tie the ribbon

What you do, first and foremost must be of your firm conviction that this is correct with God. Were Jesus to arrive at this very moment, do not be caught doing anything you would feel needful to hide from Him. As if you could!!

If you are Judging your brother, exactly how would you explain that to our Lord?

Matthew 7:1 \"No juzguéis, para que no seáis juzgados.\"

If you are Ridiculing your brother, exactly how would you explain that to our Lord?

Matthew 5:22 Pero yo os digo que todo el que se enoja con su hermano será culpable en el juicio. Cualquiera que le llama a su hermano 'necio' será culpable ante el Sanedrín; y cualquiera que le llama 'fatuo' será expuesto al infierno de fuego.

We are different, I am catire and you are morenos, I am a man and many of you are women. I am Irish and you are Venezolanos, Colombianos y Chilenos. You speak with accents.... I may eat meat and you may not, you may drink wine and I may not.

But you follow Jesus Christ, I follow Jesus Christ. Jesus died for you, Jesus died for me. You confessed Jesus as the Son of God and repented of your sins, I confessed Jesus as the Son of of God and repented of my sins. I was baptised for the remission of my sins, you were baptised for the remission of your sins. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ is you Lord and Master. It is before Him we both either stand or fall. I will not arrive before you to be judged, nor will you arrive before me to be judged.
 
Paul also taught us in Ephesians 4:4-6
Hay un solo cuerpo y un solo Espíritu, así como habéis sido llamados a una sola esperanza de vuestro llamamiento.
Hay un solo Señor, una sola fe, un solo bautismo,
un solo Dios y Padre de todos, quien es sobre todos, a través de todos y en todos.

And you still have an accent!!  God bless you each and every one!
[/quote]

I know I could do better, I constantly pray that I will finally learn how to put a smooth sermon together. Ach but at least I know He loves me!!

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #15 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 20:53:01 »
Thanks for your help Janine & Booty.  I don't think I really grasp it yet, but working towards understanding is of great value itself.


Booty, I enjoy your Irish wit and good-natured ribbing of the Brits.   :crackup:   Sometimes you really make my day!


Never

Offline nerdneh

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« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 14:24:58 »
Brojees, it makes my heart rejoice to see someone wrestling with rather than wresting the Scriptures. Like Jacob and the Angel, we must hold on and it will yield us a blessing. This is the only honest way to proceed...and I commend you.

Nevertheless, your struggle to understand this is commendable and always a necessary attitude that must precede insight. Think about vs. 22 in this way;

\"Now, after gaining respect for those who do not see things as you do, you have finally decided what you do believe on difficult matters. You perhaps now have faith to eat all things, as referred to earlier (one has faith to eat anything), and so you have some peace, but let not this faith of yours that has settled your soul become a dogma that you insist everyone else must believe. Keep it to yourself and be glad you have reached peace with God on this. Someone else may not end up in the same place in terms of food and drink, so what? Let them also keep that to themselves as well. many of these things can be shared only with God.\"

The faith he speaks of here is not the Christian gospel; for that can always be shared, but the private insights of faith one has applied in ones own life.

Offline janine

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« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 14:42:40 »
Bob, why is it I continually find myself emailing bits of you around?  You put things so well, with nary an ounce of that sticky stinky superiority some scholars fail to squelch.

Hey, Booty, I emailed your outline to an e-friend (in the States) who works with her husband in Spanish/English ministry.

Never, I wish I coudl be as clear in my decisive moments as you are in your blurry ones.

Offline Booty

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« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 19:22:19 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Feb. 10 2003,10:39)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's not good natured ribbing.  It's foul grumpy ribbing.  He really feels growly towards those darn Brits.  

Where the bit of good nature comes in is that he knows this ill-feeling can flare up into something sinful if he doesn't keep on subjecting it to the Lord's better feelings.  He's gotta rein it in before it reigns over him.[/quote]
Janine,

You are uncanny!!  Yes it is my safety valve to relieve very real feelings. It is also a national pastime of sorts. Surprisingly though my best english speaking friend here is a brit and you should hear the two of us!! He hung a picture of the Queen in my study!!  Of course that was after I put a yank flag decal on the wing of his truck!!

Perhaps at times there exists a certain synergism with ethnic or cultural groupings that results in the grouping have totally different characteristics than the individual elements? I know I thoroughly enjoy Graham even if he is a british catholic that failed first form latin, (He's Anglican!!).

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #19 on: Mon Feb 10, 2003 - 20:13:28 »
Bob, thanks for your explanation.  Perhaps I'm having difficulty with this because I'm not exactly sure how to put it into practice.  I'll give an example of an issue that I'd like to apply this to, and we'll see what we can make of it.

***DISCLAIMER***

I do not wish to discuss the issue, only to apply this Romans 14 principle.


I believe in worshipping God with instrumental music.  In fact, I was probably 35 before I realized that some people consider that to be sinful, and believe me, it was a shock!  Since that time I have argued with and listened to non-instrumentalists.  I have studied all the scriptures their arguments reference, and really tried to look at the issue from their point of view, but my opinion has not changed.

Now for the application.

When I encounter (usually on this type of board) someone who declares that instruments in worship are an abomination to God, how do I react?  Do I argue with a loving and gentle manner that this person is mistaken? (Not allowing what I believe is good to be spoken of as evil.)  Or do I remain silent, keeping my own beliefs between me and God, but perhaps implying by my silence that I agree?

I have no problem discussing music with someone who says that accapella is better or more pleasing to God than instrumental.  They are simply stating their opinion.  But when someone says that instruments in worship are evil or sinful they are denigrating what I believe to be holy and pleasing to God.

So, based on Romans 14, what should I do?

Never

Offline Booty

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« Reply #20 on: Tue Feb 11, 2003 - 16:23:16 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--](Not allowing what I believe is good to be spoken of as evil.)[/quote]

vs 16, need your opinions. I believe I am seeing this differently than others here. I see this as doing something that is of itself not sinful in a sinful manner such to have it spoken of as evil.

By example, I do not accept that instruments in worship are sinful in and of themselves. If I stroke me fiddle in our services to the glory off God then halleleujah!! (Actually if only I could stroke a fiddle!!)  But if I were to show up at the Taliban St. CHURCH of Christ with me fiddle and commence accompanying their acappella hymns with it then I have indeed cause me fiddle to be spoke of as evil.
I do not see this vs. though as a charge we accept to protect our fiddles.



 ???  ???

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #21 on: Tue Feb 11, 2003 - 21:20:28 »
I KNEW I'd get some wise responses on this board!

 :clap:   :thumbup:  :clap:


Barb, Your words comfort and encourage me greatly.  That is what sounds like a reasonable explanation.  And when the little voice of doubt whispers in my ear, \"That's just because it's what you want to hear.\"  I have only to read your last paragraph again.  (I mean the one before the Kum Ba Ya   :D )

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]...Perhaps when it comes to that, you could politely[/u][/i] tell that person that while you respect their decision... [/quote]

One word just kinda jumps out at me, does it do that for you?   ;)




Booty, that is a remarkable insight.   :cool:   I have always, without even thinking about it, taken this verse as almost a warning, to watch out that others aren't talking trash about what I do.  Actually, now that I think about it, your insight is not really remarkable,  simply Christ-like.

Your take on vs 16 reconciles it in my mind with the rest of scripture.  That's what has been bugging me about it, and I never realized it!    :doh:   Boy I wish I could type faster!  My fingers lag so far behind my thoughts and get all tangled up.  So many scriptures are scrolling through my mind right now.  If someone strikes you on the cheek, turn the other ... why take each other to court, why not rather be wronged ... if we judge ourselves, we will not be judged ... what you sow you will also reap ... treat others the way you want to be treated (Never's paraphrase)  and of course, these verses from 1Peter 3 ~ Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. (I had to look that one up because I wanted to get it just right)

Boy did I have everything backwards!  It's not my job to keep everyone else's behavior in line, just my own!  I know I keep babbling on, but this is one of those lightbulb moments that make me feel so dense for not seeing it before.

It really bothers me when scriptures don't seem to mesh with each other, especially verses as close together as 16 & 22!  When scriptures seem to contradict red flags wave and sirens blare in my mind.  I know I'm missing something.

Now it makes sense!  Thank you!!

Never

Offline Booty

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« Reply #22 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 14:59:00 »
:clap:  :clap:   You have it Janine.

Actually Sandi has her long awaited Bonsai, a 14 year old conifer that stands 20cm tall with a 4 cm trunk. It's name is Mordecai and it arrived yesterday. It was only three months late. We share it as a gift because I have always loved Bonsai as well. When I was making passage, I talked many a long hour with Tree.

Tomorrow night we have a date at the churuata to eat wood fire pizza.



 :clap:  :clap:

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #23 on: Thu Feb 13, 2003 - 18:44:58 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Janine wrote:
\"We can pick whichever word we like right there\"... it's as if the teacher had no idea what he himself said.[/quote]
I'm assuming that this teacher won't be discussing the meaning of \"eis\" in Acts 2:38 any time soon...

 

     
anything