Author Topic: Applies to theology as well....  (Read 1096 times)

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Offline Rella

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Applies to theology as well....
« on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 08:38:09 »
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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #1 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 08:48:00 »
If I am 100% right, you are 100% wrong.

In Theology, there is the right answer.  Any answer that is not right, is wrong.  Perspectives and feelings mean nothing.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #2 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 09:48:34 »
If I am 100% right, you are 100% wrong.

In Theology, there is the right answer.  Any answer that is not right, is wrong.  Perspectives and feelings mean nothing.
There is more truth to that than you joke about. In God's word there is only one truth it matters not what "Perspectives and feelings mean " God only spoke one truth and we are required to speak the truth of God's oracles.

Hard as it may be we are required to come to the unity of truth. Gods words are truth and life!!!!

Offline Alan

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #3 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 09:58:11 »
In the case of this meme, it's a very poor example. The number is either a 6 or a 9, it cannot change its value by looking at it upside down.

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #3 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 09:58:11 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 10:05:05 »
There is more truth to that than you joke about. In God's word there is only one truth it matters not what "Perspectives and feelings mean " God only spoke one truth and we are required to speak the truth of God's oracles.

Hard as it may be we are required to come to the unity of truth. Gods words are truth and life!!!!

And truth in this...

In God's word there is only one truth it matters not what "Perspectives and feelings mean "

But then we have those here who claim they are right... even when they are opposite the next person claiming to be "right" person.

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 10:05:05 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #5 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 10:06:47 »
In the case of this meme, it's a very poor example. The number is either a 6 or a 9, it cannot change its value by looking at it upside down.

But which one is right?

Offline Alan

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #6 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 11:33:56 »
But which one is right?


No one reads upside down, nor does anyone write upside down. A 6 is a 6 and a 9 is a 9.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #7 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 12:24:44 »
There is more truth to that than you joke about. In God's word there is only one truth it matters not what "Perspectives and feelings mean " God only spoke one truth and we are required to speak the truth of God's oracles.

Hard as it may be we are required to come to the unity of truth. Gods words are truth and life!!!!

I really wasn't joking.  I might have been needling Rella with the first statement but it is still correct.  The truth is the truth whether I agree with it or not. 

Offline Rella

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #8 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 13:22:30 »

No one reads upside down, nor does anyone write upside down. A 6 is a 6 and a 9 is a 9.

You are missing the point.

The number is on the ground with 2 different people at opposite ends..... what each sees is correct for them

I know you have to have seen on a sign numbers that will have a line drawn under them...  usually a 6 or a 9

That is to emphasize the bottom of the number.


BTW... I DO TOO... Read upside down and backwards. When I was 20 my boss once told me I should learn because it can come in handy at times.

So I did and he was right.

It is amazing what you can learner looking down on a table or desk from the opposite side when people assume you cant understand what they have written. ::tippinghat::

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #8 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 13:22:30 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #9 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 14:17:44 »
I understood the point and it isn't a good one.  Perspective means nothing.  There is no "my truth" only the truth.  Truth is objective.

Offline RB

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #10 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 15:23:10 »

No one reads upside down, nor does anyone write upside down. A 6 is a 6 and a 9 is a 9.
I do have a little granddaughter (Abigail) that's dyslexia~certain numbers and letters she sees backward! This past week we were in the car and saw something ( I can not remember) and she asked me Pa Pa, is that a six, and I said no it is ...... I wish I could remember, but can not, but it was not a six it was like a "j" in cursive.

She's a smart little girl but does have trouble spelling and with numbers~a great little artist...but is dyslexia.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #11 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 16:27:53 »
Hebrew is famous for having double meanings.  The answer where it comes to Biblical interpretation is often "both" or "all" rather than one or the other.

When we look at how Jesus and His disciples handled the Old Testament, there are places where they give a meaning to verses that doesn't look like it was intended by the original author (e.g. Matthew 2:15).  Both in the Bible and other Jewish writings, we find that the Old Testament was used as a pattern, and it was perfectly acceptable to apply a new layer of meaning to it, or re-apply it to a different period of time.

"All Scripture is God-breath" is not an appeal to the authority of Scripture, but rather a commentary on how to use Scripture - "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."  Scripture is not just inspired, it is meant to be an inspiration.  Make of it what you will.

Jarrod


Offline Alan

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #12 on: Fri Oct 28, 2022 - 17:09:43 »
You are missing the point.


I get the point, but the counterpoint is that things shouldn't be examined to the point of creating alternative meanings, especially clear meanings like sixes and nines.


Of course, a six tossed into the dirt could be perceived as a six or a nine, in which case the structure and intent has been lost with the absence of formatting.

Offline Rella

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #13 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 07:28:50 »

Of course, a six tossed into the dirt could be perceived as a six or a nine, in which case the structure and intent has been lost with the absence of formatting.

Exactly. But not really. Can you honestly tell us what number is represented in the meme?

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Yesterday at 08:48:00

Quote
If I am 100% right, you are 100% wrong.

In Theology, there is the right answer.  Any answer that is not right, is wrong.  Perspectives and feelings mean nothing.

"Any answer that is not right, is wrong"

TC , please remove yourself and perfection from this and tell me who is right in the following.

Biblically ... look at a scripture that has been reworded over the years for alleged clarity of understanding to the reader THEN please tell us  who is right of the 2 viewpoints.

 Acts 12:4.

KJV states “And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people,”

NASB 95 states ( as do all other modern translations say the basic same thing as well as  and the Greek interlinear)

 4 When he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out before the people

as does my newest LSV

whom also having seized, he put in prison, having delivered [him] to four squads of four soldiers to guard him, intending to bring him forth to the people after the Passover.

There are comments and commentaries all over the place about how EASTER is the only appropriate word for when Peter was going to be brought out. The KJ only folk say this is the most accurate translation... even with the Greek and Aramaic interlinears disagreeing.

Greek uses the Aramaic word in both interlinears I have. The word πασχα is a transliterated Aramaic term.

πασχα
pasca
pascha
G3957
Aramaic
PASSOVER

Aramaic
4 ὃν καὶ πιάσας ἔθετο εἰς φυλακήν παραδοὺς τέσσαρσιν τετραδίοις στρατιωτῶν φυλάσσειν αὐτόν βουλόμενος μετὰ τὸ πάσχα ἀναγαγεῖν αὐτὸν τῷ λαῷ

Conclusion : it ( Easter )  MAKES NO SENSE.... and obviously not to any other translator except KJs men.

So we have a case for disagreement because some men chose a word that no other men chose through out history, to date.
And some men today follow what those men said.

From Jimmys bible Acts 1-4

12 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.

2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Then were the days of unleavened bread. Passover time. So no mater how KJV people want to spin it , it is clear that  Passover should have been used here also. because he ws to be brought forth after the days of unleavened bread.

So you have the Holy Word of God with people who disagree with this simple thing. And both will claim to be right.

Offline RB

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #14 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 07:56:19 »
Acts 12:4
“Easter” in Acts 12:4
Quote
Acts 12:1-4~Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
Sadly, many are amused or confused by the use of “Easter” in Acts 12:4, and others gloat about it, because they want to find fault with the King James Bible.

They may accuse the King James translators of a mistranslation, especially if they know the underlying Greek word is pascha, for Passover. They may conclude that Herod Agrippa I celebrated pagan Easter. They may twist scripture to make Passover and the feast of unleavened bread two different things.

“Easter” in Acts 12:4 is Passover, which is the feast of unleavened bread, clearly identified in the context (Acts 12:3). This is simple enough by reading the passage, but especially if it is known that Passover and unleavened bread are the same feast and/or that Easter in English and European languages can easily mean Passover.

In English and the languages of Europe … Easter = Passover … if not as the first or primary definition, it is as a secondary and significant definition.

The English word “Easter” means the spring Christian festival to commemorate the resurrection of Christ in timing with the spring Jewish celebration of Passover.

Here is part of the entry for “Easter” in the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the standard of the English language:

Easter~1. One of the great festivals of the Christian Church, commemorating the resurrection of Christ, and corresponding to the Jewish Passover, the name of which it bears in most of the European languages. 2. The Jewish Passover.

When quoting a source for an example of definition 2, the OED quoted Acts 12:4 in the King James Bible.

The Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread are synonyms in the Bible unless context distinguishes the Passover lamb or supper from the week-long celebration.

Ezekiel 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

There are other similar verses showing the names as synonyms for the same feast.

These verses show that the Passover and feast of unleavened bread are synonyms, when there is no context limiting either one of them, as is the case in Acts 12:3-4.

It is clear in Acts 12:3-4 by reading the verses together that “days of unleavened bread” (12:3) is the same as “Easter” (12:4). There is no reason to seek any other explanation, especially once the facts listed above about English usage of “Easter” and the Bible use of Passover terms as synonyms are understood.

The King James Version is perfectly accurate and consistent for readers that will check the context, confirm Bible use of terms, and check the meaning of the English word “Easter.”

Checking the underlying Greek word pascha is further confirmation to some, but provides no additional proof for those trusting the English words of the KJV.

It should be obvious that Herod was not waiting for the Jews to finish the pagan celebration of Astarte’s Day or the celebration of the Christian Easter Sunday.

He was waiting for the seven-day feast of Passover to end so that his murder of Peter would not draw as much political or social opposition from the Jews, whom he sought to further please after having killed James.

Let all amusement or confusion about Acts 12:4 end.

Let all criticism of the English King James Bible and its translator end.

Let all wresting of scripture to make Passover and the feast of unleavened bread separate things end.

You may trust the King James Version perfectly~there are no other options as trustworthy.  God has stamped the KJV with His approval by 400+ years of spiritual fruit and all the internal and external measures of His divine revelation. At least for me.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 08:34:11 by RB »

Offline Alan

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #15 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 08:28:14 »

Exactly. But not really. Can you honestly tell us what number is represented in the meme?



It has no meaning, no significance, no context. 6 or 9, take your choice, but don't expect to draw solid conclusions from that choice.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #16 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 09:19:36 »
You may trust the King James Version perfectly~there are no other options as trustworthy.  God has stamped the KJV with His approval by 400+ years of spiritual fruit and all the internal and external measures of His divine revelation.
You have absolutely no basis for making that statement, RB, except your own wishful thinking. And I don't even understand why you insist on it. There is neither internal evidence nor external evidence that would support such a claim. And I have no idea what you are even talking about when you point to internal and external measures of His divine revelation. what is that? Your aversion to modern scholarship in languages is really strange.  There are more ancient manuscripts of the Scriptures available now than were available to the KJV translators.  And we probably even have more and better information about Koine Greek now than was available to the KJV translators, although I can't actually point to that. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #17 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 09:46:54 »
Exactly. But not really. Can you honestly tell us what number is represented in the meme?
Yes we can.  To the one on the left it represents the number "six" and to the one on the right if represents the number "nine". That is because the symbol has no inherent meaning on its own.  It has meaning only if it is viewed in a proper orientation and context.  That is true for many symbols.  In the context of Chemistry, a "C" is not just the symbol for the upper case of the third letter of the alphabet; it is the symbol for elemental carbon.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #18 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 09:49:22 »
Only the original Greek or Hebrew is inerrant.  Translations are not. 

Offline Rella

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #19 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 12:50:50 »
Only the original Greek or Hebrew is inerrant.  Translations are not.
 

::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

Offline 4WD

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #20 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 16:11:49 »
I also agree.

::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1


Offline yogi bear

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #21 on: Sat Oct 29, 2022 - 19:28:28 »
I too also agree

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

  +1

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #22 on: Sun Oct 30, 2022 - 04:42:00 »
Quote
2nd Timothy 3:16,17~All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The only scriptures Paul and saints have ever had were translations given by scribes~yet they KNEw it still was the very word of God given to holy men of old, and that God had protected his word from one generation to the next from being corrupted per many scriptures in the Psalms that can be given to prove this to be so.

This should not be debatable, but sadly it is.
Quote
2nd Peter 1:16-21~"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
For the English-speaking people of this world, (others have theirs as well)  we have a more SURE word than the voice Peter and the other apostles heard on the mount of transfiguration. Folk do not believe this if they do not believe we have a bible that is inspired by God~every single word. Jesus said man shall live by every word of God, we do not pick and chose which to live by, for we have God's word in our KJV, just as much as the first church had the word of God that had been handed down for many generations from Moses onward. I'm sure certain words change the spelling from Moses until Christ, I really do not care to search things out, for it is all hidden from us, we walk BY FAITH.

So, no thumps up from me. I do not care about plus 1, or even minus one. I'm just thankful I have a Bible I can 100% trust in as God's inspired word for his children. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #23 on: Sun Oct 30, 2022 - 06:37:40 »
The only scriptures Paul and saints have ever had were translations given by scribes....
What Paul had were the OT scriptures.  Paul had access to both the Hebrew text and the Greek LXX test.  The Hebrew text which Paul had access to was obviously copied text, but it wasn't a translation.  The LXX was a translation from the Hebrew into Greek.  When he referred to the OT text, if he used the Hebrew version, he likely translated into the language he was speaking at the time, most often Greek.  It does seem, according to sources that I have read, that Paul more often than not quoted from the LXX.

I am quite certain that we have evidence of variances in even the oldest OT texts which were the result of errors made by scribes in copying.  You can look into the research that has been conducted on that topic online.
For the English-speaking people of this world, (others have theirs as well)  we have a more SURE word than the voice Peter and the other apostles heard on the mount of transfiguration.
I am not even sure what you mean or intend by that.
Folk do not believe this if they do not believe we have a bible that is inspired by God~every single word.
It is pretty clear that there is no such thing available to us today as a divinely inspired translation. I have never read of any expert or authority in such things who believes there is.

You can, of course, believe in divinely inspired translations if you wish but you have no basis for it.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 30, 2022 - 06:39:48 by 4WD »

Offline Rella

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #24 on: Sun Oct 30, 2022 - 08:51:15 »


So, no thumps up from me. I do not care about plus 1, or even minus one. I'm just thankful I have a Bible I can 100% trust in as God's inspired word for his children.

But Red,

You simply don't.

I apologize for the following length but there is a fine example of why we know the basics of the bible to be the inerrant words of God... but no translation can be declared to be inerrant.

You cannot trust 100% that your King James is 100% accurate other then what we all read in every "protestant" translation about our Tenants Of Faith in Jesus... i.e....His being born of a virgin, His sheading His blood for our sins... His hanging on a cross.  His resurrection. IOW the basics of what it means to be  a true Christian.

I am not saying there is any better accounting from God... I am not saying that original Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic are the only way. EXCEPT THAT THOSE BOOKS WRITTEN IN THOSE LANGUAGES BACK THEN WERE INSPIRED  AND THEN WRITTEN BY PEOPLE WHO ... AT LEAST AS FAR AS GREEK AND ARAMAIC GO.... WERE CONTEMPORARIES OF JESUS.
 
I am saying, as we do not know Koine Greek, Greek, or Aramaic.... ( at least I don't and even translators will fumble from time to time.. even relying on other translators who may or may not agree with them) we can only be assured that back then the writings could be considered to be accurate and inspired.

But even at that .. they too got some details different then others wrote of the basic same time span.

Before you continue, please sit comfortable and grab a coffee or tea and read the words of a person who studied the resurrection. You are about to read 4 accounts of the resurrection from 4 people who were back in that day.

When you are done... I challenge you to tell us which of these accounts were inspired by God. And if all 4 were inspired to write different words WHY?

Also... being a KJ only person, and these are from an NIV...grab your bible  so you can compare where translation differences may be.

Let us begin  ::reading::


https://owlcation.com/humanities/Comparing-the-Gospel-Accounts-of-the-Resurrection-of-Jesus-Christ
Quote
Comparing the Gospel Accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
CHOLEE CLAY  AUG 19, 2022

Quote
Cholee took several theology classes during college and enjoys partaking in bible studies and diving deep into scripture.

comparing-the-gospel-accounts-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ
Shesabutterfly

Are There Differences in the Gospel Accounts of the Resurrection?

At first glance there appear to be clear differences between each of the four gospel accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If we were to create a table for each story and bring them parallel to each other it would be impossible not to see how many differences there appear to be on the surface. I've provided a table below to show some of the main ideas of the accounts and how they vary on the surface.

When the individual stories from each gospel are dissected however, we will see that the apparent differences come down to simply a different viewpoint of the same event. A difference in writing style perhaps, and the individual author's perspective of the circumstances surrounding the Resurrection, rather than an actual difference in the events that happened.

I will be referencing verses from a women's devotional NIV bible, so your bible might have slightly different wording, but remember the message is still the same! Below you will find the passages for each gospels account of the Resurrection in order to make the comparisons easier to see.

Bolded words or phrases within the scripture passages have been done to show what similarities are in all four of the gospels.

Matthew 28: 1-10

1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down and from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightening, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. 5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dad and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." 8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

Mark 16: 1-8

1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" 4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, whch was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. 6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you'." 8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Luke 24: 1-10

1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightening stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of the sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again'." 8Then they remembered his words. 9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.

John 20: 1-18

1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" 3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) 10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. 13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?" "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not recognize that it was Jesus. 15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." 16Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, 'Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father, to my God and your God." 18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Comparing the Resurrection Stories
                                            Matthew               Mark                                Luke                         John

Time of day                           At dawn on               Very early on                  Very early on              Early on the
                                            the first day              the first day                    the first day               first day of
                                            of the week               of the week                    of the week                of the week
                                                                             (just after sunrise)                                          (still dark)



Who went to the tomb           Mary Magdalene &        Mary Magdalene,             The women               Mary Magdalene
                                           the other Mary             Mary (James' mother),
                                                                               & Salome



Events that occurred            Violent earthquake;         Women bought spices;     Women take spices         Mary Magdalene ran
                                          Angel speaks to them;     Angel speaks to them;      to tomb; 2 angels          to get Simon Peter;
                                          Women meet Jesus         Women fled tomb,            appear; Angel speaks     Simon Peter and
                                                                               but said nothing               to them; Told the           the other disciple
                                                                                                                      disciples what they         went to the tomb;
                                                                                                                      found                            disciples left and
                                                                                                                                                          Jesus appears
                                                                                                                                                          to Mary


The angels                          One Angel came              Young man dressed           2 men appeared in         2 angels in white     
                                         down from heaven,           in white robes sitting        clothes that gleamed      seated where Jesus'
                                         whose appearance            on the right side               like lightning;                body had been
                                         was like lightning;                                                   stood beside them         (one at the head
                                         clothes were white                                                                                        other at the foot)

                                         as snow


Jesus' words                     "Greetings"; "Do not be                                                                                 "Woman, why are
                                        afraid. Go tell my brothers                                                                             you crying? Who
                                        to go to Galilee; there                                                                                    is it you are
                                        they will see me"                                                                                           looking for?";
                                                                                                                                                           "Mary"; "Do not
                                                                                                                                                            hold on to me, for
                                                                                                                                                            I have not yet
                                                                                                                                                            returned to the
                                                                                                                                                            Father. I am
                                                                                                                                                            returning to my
                                                                                                                                                            Father, and your
                                                                                                                                                            Father, to my God
                                                                                                                                                            and your God."

Do These Differences Discount the Resurrection?
No they do not. In fact, it is because of the variations that we can fully believe in the events that took place during the Crucifixion and the Resurrection of Jesus. The variations that can be found in each of the four gospels will be further explored and we will see exactly why these differences do not discount what happened.

The differences between the stories have caused many people to believe that the Resurrection was a fabrication or a parable, rather than a factual happening. However, I believe it is because of these differences, that the Resurrection can be confirmed as truth. If all the accounts were exactly the same it would be harder to believe that the Resurrection actually took place. It would appear that one author wrote a story and the other three simply copied it word for word and added it to their gospel without a second thought. However, with each story being different, we can see that it is more likely than not that it actually happened and happened like the four gospels say it did. The accounts afterall, are not that different when we look closer at what is meant by the written content.

Think of it like this. If there are four people watching the same event, be it sports, fireworks, crime, ect.; there are going to be four separate and slightly different eye witness accounts of this exact same event. We see this all the time when police question eyewitnesses of a crime or accident for example. The same thing happens when people watch other events unfold, such as, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is these differences that actually help show the truth of what transpired during that day. All four gospels agree on the focal points of what happened and the time when these events occurred. The reason it seems like we have such different stories, is because no one gospel tells the whole story. We get different pieces from each of the authors for one reason or another. Each gospel account is also written by a different author, which means there is going to be a difference in writing style as well as interpretation of the events that happened. No two people are going to interpret something in the exact same way.

Let's break down the main points of the Resurrection further and truly compare what is being said by each author.


What Time did the Women go to the Tomb?
It is clear that the Resurrection happened on the first day of the week, as each author agrees on this point and mentions it specifically in each of their accounts of what happened. What time they started their journey or arrived at the tomb is unclear, but Mark, Luke, and John all agree it is very early in the morning. Matthew simply uses the word dawn, but we know that dawn is also an occurrence that happens very early in the morning. For this reason we can conclude that the women's journey happened at some point during the morning.

It is known that Mary and the other women were likely staying in Bethany or Jerusalem like they did earlier in the week, and their walk would have taken them several miles. This means there was plenty of time for the sun to rise before they reached the tomb where Jesus was buried if they left when it was still dark. The long walk helps us to know that the four authors are likely talking about different places in their journey to the tomb. John describes it being dark out, because he is starting his gospel at the start of Mary's journey as they are leaving the place where they are staying. On the other hand, Mark's description of just after sunrise would describe when they arrived at the grave.

Therefore, none of these descriptions would be wrong. The voyage would have been long and enough time would have passed for the women to experience complete darkness, dawn, and arrive at the grave as the sun was starting to rise into the sky.

Who Went to the Tomb on That First Day?

Each author is in agreement that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. Each one mentions her specifically by name at some point during their account of events. It is also clear that all of them, including John know that other women went with Mary. It is unclear how many actually go to the tomb with Mary, but we can be sure that it was more than those that are mentioned by name (James' mother Mary, Joanna & Salome).

In John 20:2 ("They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!") we know that Mary mentions other women being at the grave sight even if they are not mentioned by name anywhere in John's gospel. The use of "we" can only mean other women, and we can use deductive reasoning and comparing this verse with several others from the other three gospels to know that the word "we" in this verse does in fact mean other women.

In Luke he starts out by saying "the women", however a few verses later he takes the time to name a few. Luke 24:10 ("It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles") he acknowledges that there were several women at the tomb, including others he does not mention by name.

With Luke and John's account we know that Matthew and Mark's accounts of who went to the tomb can be correct. Neither Matthew or Mark say that only the Mary's made the journey that day, and therefore the apparent difference of who went to the tomb is in actuality a similarity. They all agree that several women likely lead by Mary Magdalene went to see Jesus' body that early morning, on the first day of the week.

How Many Angels Were in Jesus' Tomb?


Luke and John both say that there were two angels present in the tomb. Matthew and Mark say that one angel spoke. This does not mean they did not see two angels.

In fact, it is very possible that there were two angels. Luke and John both say that only one angel spoke, which is actually in agreement with what Matthew and Mark both wrote.

It is likely that one angel was designated to speak to the group of women, despite there being two present at the time. This could easily explain why Matthew and Mark also never say there was only one angel in the tomb. They may have known there were two, but it was unnecessary to talk about the second, as the second angel never spoke to the women. They simple say one spoke, which does not discount the fact that there could very well be two angels in the tomb.

Why is John's Gospel so Different Than the Synoptic's?

John's entire gospel is written in a reflective style. For this reason, his gospel is very different than the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).

The vast majority of John's gospel is different from the others by content, the order of events, and the literary style that he uses. Most of his gospel is written with the idea that there are seven signs that point to Jesus being the Son of God. He uses this idea and his reflections of what he witnessed of Jesus' life to write his entire gospel. It is because of his writing style that nothing in his gospel is similar to that of Mark or Luke, and the events of the Resurrection are truly no different.

This does not mean that something is wrong, untrue, or contradictory. He is simply coming from a distinct place while writing his accounts of Jesus' life. His style and perspective are unique to him, and cannot be found anywhere else within the gospels.

Similarities Between the Four Resurrection Stories
The four gospels agree on all the fundamental events of the Resurrection, starting from the very beginning. The verbiage may vary slightly, however the order of events and how they happened are exactly the same.

Jesus died and was buried
Several women left for the tomb very early in the morning (including Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James)
They found the stone rolled away and the tomb empty of Jesus' body
An angel spoke to them
The women fled from the tomb
The disciples were not prepared for his death and were confused about his Resurrection, what it meant, and the words Mary spoke to them
It is safe to say that the four accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ agree on all the main and important points. It is because of this, that we can trust in the truth of the Resurrection, for there are no contradictions on the fundamental truths of this occurrence.

The variations can be explained away simply by the authors impression of what was witnessed that day. There are far more similarities between the four accounts than first appear on the surface and for this we can be truly grateful. It is because of these similarities that we can find and know the truth of what happened to Jesus Christ during that time.

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #25 on: Sun Oct 30, 2022 - 21:42:05 »
Rella:

    Here is some info similar to what you posted above. It is quite long, but it is well worth reading and digesting.--Buff.

<><><>


Difficulties in the Resurrection Story

by the late
Leroy Garrett
 
[If you believe in “Biblical Inerrancy,” I suggest you evaluate
what our brother Garrett conveys.—Buff.]

    This essay is intended to show that in spite of a number of troublesome conflicts in the biblical accounts of the resurrection of Christ, the message comes through loud and clear that the tomb was empty—that Jesus of Nazareth indeed became the risen Christ. At the same time, I want to make a case for being honest with the Bible. The predisposition of some well-meaning Christians to “defend the Bible” against any inconsistency or contradiction is not only indefensible in the light of the nature of Scripture, but it is a disservice to the Bible.
 
    Moreover, the doctrine of biblical inerrancy—not one rooted in apostolic tradition but of only recent origin—has the capacity to do irreparable harm. If one is persuaded that the Bible has to be free of all error in order to be the word of God, his faith may well be in jeopardy when he finds such conflicts that are evident in such contexts as the resurrection narratives.
 
    Before citing some of the difficulties, it might be helpful to make a distinction between statements that are only contrary (different) but not  contradictory. An illustration would be the account in Mark 10:37 of James and John asking Jesus if they might sit beside Him in His kingdom, and the parallel account in Matthew 20:21, where it is the brothers’ mother who makes the request. The accounts are contrary, but not  contradictory, for it is possible—even if improbable—that both the mother and her sons made the request.
 
    A more likely explanation is that Matthew sought to lessen Mark’s indictment of the two apostles by attributing it to their mother.  Matthew did this in reference to Jesus’ disdained occupation. Mark says candidly that Jesus was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), while Matthew softens it to “a carpenter’s son” (Mt. 13:55). Again, contrary but not contradictory, for Jesus could be and was both a carprenter and a carpenter’s son.
 
    To be a contradiction both statements cannot be true. Had Matthew said Jesus was not a carpenter he would have contradicted Mark. But even in contrary or different statements, one has a problem if he holds to a word-for-word, verbal inspiration of the Bible. If the Spirit was telling Matthew and Mark what to write—so that it would be inerrant—why would he have one to write “Jesus was a carpenter” and the other “Jesus was a carpenter’s son,” or why would the Spirit have Mark blame a prideful request on two of the apostles, and then have Matthew to blame it on their mother?
 
    There are instances of this type in the Easter story—troublesome and conflicting, even if not contradictory. In Mark 16:5 the women upon entering the tomb saw “a young man clothed in a long white robe.” Mark does not call him an angel—and it was as common in that day as today for folk to be dressed in white. In Luke 24:4 they saw “two men stood by in dazzling apparel.” In John 20:12 it was “two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been.” Matthew refers only to “an angel” outside the tomb, the one who rolled the stone away.
 
    What did the women see? Mark says it was a young man, Luke says it was two men, John said it was two angels. These are not necessarily contradictory, for if there were two angels as Luke and John say, then there was one angel as Mark says. But one has a problem here if this is an example of verbal inspiration of Scripture.  And the ordinary reader cannot help but wonder, since the Bible has it both ways, whether there was one angel or two.
 
   Then there is the problem of which women went to the tomb, and how many. Mark 16:1 names three: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome. Matthew 28:1 names two: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (probably the mother of James, as in Mark). Luke 24:10 lists Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Joanna. Is she the same as Salome or some other woman? And Luke adds “and other women.”
 
    John 20:1 names only Mary Magdalene. The number moves from but one in John to at least five in Luke. These differences reflect no serious conflict—no more than what might be expected from writers recalling what happened some thirty or forty years earlier— unless one assumes there is an exact, word-by-word guidance from the Spirit. If this is verbal inspiration, it is understandable if a sincere and honest reader would wonder why the Spirit would list the women in such a variety of ways and with such imprecision.
 
    Even the stone that sealed the tomb, which is described as being a  problem to the women who expected entrance to the tomb, is treated with curious diversity. In Mark 16:3-4 the women express concern about how the stone—described as huge—will be rolled back, but upon arrival find that it is already rolled away. Mark says nothing about how this happened. Luke 24:2 follows Mark, saying only that the women found the stone rolled away. No explanation.
 
    John 20:1, like Mark and Luke, simply says the women found the stone rolled away. But Matthew 28:2 gives dramatic details about the stone. There was a violent earthquake, and an angel of the Lord, whose face was like lightning, descended from heaven and rolled back the stone, and then sat on it! Moreover, the guards were so frightened that they were “as dead men.”
 
    Even a casual reader would wonder why Mark, Luke, and John did not include some of the exciting details found in Matthew, especially if they were under the mandate of the Spirit to get it right!  And we are to remember that the first readers did not have all four gospels to read as we have.
 
    At first there was only Mark, so most scholars adjudge, and it was a decade or two before Matthew wrote. They had to wait to learn from Matthew how the stone was rolled away—that an angel rolled it away and then sat upon it.  I love that!  Good stuff! Again, if this is about verbal inspiration, why didn’t the Spirit have Mark tell the earliest Christians about how the stone was rolled back—the earthquake, the angel, the “dead” Roman soldiers?
 
    As I have indicated, these examples are contraries, and perhaps troublesome, but not contradictions. Remember, to be a contradiction both statements cannot be true. If one is true, the other has to be false. I’ll let you decide if the following statements in the Easter story are contradictions.
 
    As to the time the women went to the tomb, Mark 16:2 says it was “very early in the morning when the sun had risen.”  Matthew 28:1 says it was “toward dawn.” Luke says “at the first sign of dawn,” and John says “it was still dark.”
 
    One might say that Matthew, Luke, and John agree in pinpointing the time—almost daybreak or dawn, but still dark. But aren’t they contradicted by Mark? It can’t be “still dark” and “the sun had risen” at the same time. No one would say “toward dawn” if the sun was already out.
 
    The defenders of textual inerrancy are aware of this obvious contradiction. Since the Bible cannot have the slightest error, they come up with an amazing conjecture—Mary Magdalene came to the tomb alone while it was still dark, then later returned with other women after the sun had risen!  Such antics are unnecessary if we allow that the Bible was written by men who, while led by the Holy Spirit, were allowed to draw upon their own memories and experiences, gather their own data, and to write in their own style.
 
    They were “moved by the Spirit” in that their final product conveyed the message God wanted told. This allows for jars, conflicts, differences, and even contradictions, but they are not material errors. They do not affect or compromise the message, and do not matter. As in the case of the timing, there is only a matter of minutes difference in their testimony—between “still dark” and “the sun was up.” They are telling us, in slightly different ways, that the resurrection was very early in the morning.
 
    If anything, these irregularities authenticate the message, for they make it clear that the writers were not in collusion. No one out to dupe us with a false story would include such an obvious error as the above.
 
    I will name one more difficulty in the Easter story that I find bewilderingly inexplicable. Mark 16:1-7 tells us that the women entered the tomb and saw a young man dressed in white. They were alarmed, but the young man told them not to be alarmed, for “You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.” The young man goes on to tell them to “go and tell his disciples, and Peter, that he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him, as he said to you.”
 
    This is clear, crisp narrative. The women are not only witness to the empty tomb, but they hear the first proclamation of the good news—Jesus is risen from the dead! They are told to go and break the news to the disciples, especially Peter, and to tell them that Jesus will meet them in Galilee, some distance away.
 
    Now read verse 8. “And they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.” Mark’s gospel surprisingly ends at this  point in the story. It is the consensus of modern scholarship that the ancient manuscripts do not justify the several additions that have been made to Mark’s gospel, one of which your Bible may have. But virtually every Bible with footnotes recognizes the virtual certainly that Mark ends at verse 8.
 
    The phrase “they said nothing to anyone” is painfully baffling, and of course contradicts what we have in the other gospels, such as Luke 24:9: “And they returned from the tomb and told the Eleven and to all the others.” But Luke adds that the apostles referred to what the women reported as “pure nonsense.” Nonsense or no, the Bible makes it clear, apart from Mark 16:8, that the women even “ran,” as in John 20:2, to tell numerous ones the good news.
 
    Even though the women were dispatched by the angel in the empty tomb to go and tell his disciples, Mark tells us, as he concludes the resurrection story, that they didn’t do it. They were so overwhelmed by awe—by the reality of a risen Lord that no one at that time did or could believe—that they fled from the tomb, and were so shocked by it all that they said nothing to anyone.
 
    That’s it. One can talk all he pleases about Mark being interrupted and intending to write more later—or of this or that addition that might be appended. It is evident that Mark intended to do precisely what he did. His is the gospel of surprise. He recorded no appearances of the risen Lord. He had told his story, lean and to the point. He lays before the reader the empty tomb, and the angel’s proclamation that Jesus of Nazareth, the crucified one, is the risen Christ. The women are witnesses. Enough said. Case closed.
 
    When Mark says the women left the tomb and said nothing to anyone, does he contradict the other gospels? Of course. It is a glorious, baffling contradiction—to which I have no explanation. But that doesn’t bother me in the least, for in spite of problems, even baffling ones, the resurrection message comes through sharp and clear, and from all four gospels—the tomb was empty, the crucified one is the risen Lord. That is infallible and inerrant!Essay #26, 2009.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 30, 2022 - 21:53:54 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #26 on: Mon Oct 31, 2022 - 05:20:32 »
Rella, I might start another thread on this subject~I see no discrepancies in the four gospels, but perfect harmony between them, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. God purposed to use four witnesses (not two or three) to construct this perfect harmony to boost our faith, not to sake our faith. 

Let me find TIME to do this. In the meantime, I'll read both yours and Reformer's post again.   RB

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Applies to theology as well....
« Reply #27 on: Thu Dec 22, 2022 - 16:26:20 »
Rella,
Quote
But then we have those here who claim they are right... even when they are opposite the next person claiming to be "right" person.
Romans 3:4 ...Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

God would not give opposing "truths", to each of His children or His creation. Two people holding opposing views cannot both be entirely right. Either one is wrong, or they are both wrong. And they could both be in the right and in the wrong about certain things.
If one says prior belief in Christ is required in order to be saved and another says belief is not required, it is only a result of being saved, they cannot both be in the right.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 22, 2022 - 16:29:00 by e.r.m. »