Bonnie,

I never said anyone was called to do anything. I just said that the structure that is demonstrated for us in the NT consists of preachers and pastors separately. If we are told that they are separate then why do some religious groups combine them?


Jarrod,

I have already posted the qualifications for elders. so you cannot accurately state that they were just older people looking over the younger. you cannot tell me that all the old people met the qualifications. they were appointed members. yes they were often older but i would submit that that is because of the wisdom that usually comes with age.

and i think this should apply to the entire thread: a lot of people are basing their arguments on spiritual gifts but who had the gift of overriding the bible? my point is this...we are given directions and just like in a set of house plans for example, we only build what we are supposed to. nothing more and nothing less. so where do we get the authority to combine church offices? i think spiritual gifts should be left out of this thread since that is a another argument by itself.

One thing is certain...In today's religous world, each assembly, no matter the affiliation, has some type of leadership.  Whether it be officially recognized positions, such as seen in the Roman Catholic Church, or unofficial leaders of just a gathering of Christians (i.e. the organizers of time, place, etc.)

Another fact, we see assemblies/congregations in the New Testament with a certain type of leadership organizational pattern (elders, deacons, etc.)

Since leadership is inevitable, why not just follow the example that we see in the NT.

Was it not the same Holy Spirit that annointed the elders in the first century, that guided Paul to pen the qualifications of elders we see in 1 Tim 3.

I know I'm not a greek scholar, so maybe somebody can help me.  Does 1 Tim 3:1 not say "office of overseer".

Also, another word in greek I'd like to have examined, is the word "must" in 1 Tim 3:2

Thank you in advance.

 ἐπισκοπή was used for "office" in the Septuagint, as in Psalm 109:8, "Let his days be few; Let another take his office."

The fact that the word "office" does not appear in the Greek does not negate the fact that the body of elders, both under the old  covenant and under the new covenant, is treated in the Scriptures as a body of men set aside for special, albeit broad ranging, duties so far as the individual congregations (churches or assemblies) are concerned.  In the modern usage, that is much the same as "office".  It is a position of authority.  I personally believe it is that position or office that the Holy Spirit established (Acts 20:28) , not any one individual as an elder.

Paul's calling the elders of the church at Ephesus in Acts 22 is such an example.

I would agree that the overreaching approach of some religious groups to establish the "office" over more than a single church is probably to be avoided.

BTW,

The meaning associated with "behooves" is pretty much the same as "must".

I spent years in several churches looking for an answer to this question, because I knew inside that those people who were the heads of those churches were preachers, but there was no real "pastoring" going on.  When I finally found a teaching on the 5-fold ministry through Rick Godwin, I found my answers.  According to him, and my experience bears this out, apostles govern, prophets guide, evangelists gather, pastors guard and teachers ground (they get their people grounded in the Word).  I had a whole string of teachers who were the set men of the church, the preachers if you will.  Teachers can head a church, but some people draw a distinction between teaching and preaching.  Not sure what the difference is there.

The problem I had with the 5-fold teachers as heads of those churches was that they had no clue how to guard the sheep from destructive influences.  That wasn't their anointing!  But it took me years to catch up to that. And in the mean time, there was a lot of offense and a lot of hurt people.  And I also was under a true pastor who knew how to guard sheep who was a truly lousy preacher! He was operating in his anointing, though. Perhaps he should have delegated the preaching!  So there's my two cents.

Jimmy
can you direct me where in Acts 22 that Paul called on the elders?

If the elders were the authoritative leaders of the assembly why did Paul not address all his letters to them?

Here are my original questions still unanswered
1. Where does the NT speak of church offices or an institutional church as opposed to an assembly?

2.  The only way I see elders anointed in the NT was by the Holy Spirit or an inspired preacher,  So where is the method of getting men in this official office today?

3.  Where in the NT did a man or group of men make a decision for the assembly separate and apart from "the whole assembly" ?

The verse in Greek is below with the translation beneath it:

    πιστός   ὁ λόγος      εἰ τὶς        ἐπισκοπή    ὀρέγομαι   καλός    ἔργον   ἐπιθυμέω
    a true    saying    [if] a man   the office     desires   a good   work   he desires

Of course, I followed the precedent of the LXX translating ἐπισκοπή as "office."

And the NASB translators, supposedly without the theological bias you ascribe to the KJV translators, saw fit to translate the verse this way: If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.