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Christ gave the church the following: "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors (shephards), and teachers" --Eph. 4:11

Evangelists and pastors are mentioned here as seperate, so why does the majority of the religious world use them interchangeably?

Paul gave specific instructions to the elders at Ephesus to "Take care of yourselves and all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops, to pastor the church of God." ( Acts 20:17, 28) No where does the bible authorize such instructions to evangelists. Not to say that evangelists cannot do pastoral work as Christians but only that they cannot as part of their evangelistic office. In other words should we call our preachers "pastor" or not?

1 Timothy 5:17ff says that there are some elders (pastors) whose work/job/career is directing the affairs of the church, preaching and teaching.  Nothing wrong with calling those men "pastor."

Evangelists have a particular job to do - proclaim the Gospel to those who do not know God. Pastors' have as their (primary) function the maturing of the community into Christlike people. This is why pastors are entrusted with the responsibility to protect, nurture, and ensure the continuation of the faith.

How many "preachers" do you know that just "preach?"  Why does an "evangelist" spend most of his time "evangelizing" the already "evangelized?" (Broad generalization here, but you get my point.)

Who gave you authority to judge what is right and what is not?

How do we know for certain if you are even saved?

Do you currently take any prescription medication?

Do you feel that God only is speaking to you?

What is the name of the Church you attend and where is it located?

How long have you thought that you are right and everyone else is wrong?

Can you prove the Bible you read from is better than other translations?

Do you hear voices speaking to you at times?

There were no "preachers" in the Greek they were evangelist (completely different than our modern day preachers)
There also were no bishops in the Greek it was placed in the KJV by order of the king.   A pastor is a spiritual guide that watches out for our soul.  He was appointed by the Holy Spirit not by men and it was not an office.  The modern day preacher in many cases attemps to fill the role of a pastor and not an evangelist.  However, as Gary points out in some cases a preacher attemps to evangelize the already saved every Sunday.  Just my take on the OP.   

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

1Ti 2:7  And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

2Ti 1:11  for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

2Pe 2:5  and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

From Strong's:
G2784
κηρύσσω
kērussō
kay-roos'-so
Of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel): - preach (-er), proclaim, publish.

I believe this is the correct answer.  And for Baptists, a preacher functions somewhere in between the two, usually traveling from church to church, and he may or may not have a home church.

love,

sopranette

Funny thing here.  There is nothing in all of the Bible about the Roman Catholic Church.  Probably few are any more guilty of making "up their own religions and gods" than the RCC.

And the only true Bible is the one given by the Holy Spirit.

Jimmy as I said there is no "preacher" in the Greek.  There is one who hearlds or proclaims the good news.  That is an evangelist.  There is no "preacher"  that is a modern day English term that refers to one who stands in a pulpit and "preach" to the already saved while everyone else fellowships with the back of their brothers head.  

Netheir the concept nor the word for a modern day "preacher" is found in the NT.

bibleteacher
You listen to neither logic, facts or reason and belief you communicte directly with God therefore I choose to ignore you.

I agree that there were the two fundamental leadership roles of preaching the gospel to the lost (evangelist)and teaching the saints (elders/pasters/shepherds/bishops).  There is nothing in the NT that precludes anyone from doing both.  In some cases the elders were most likely the teachers of the saints.  But I am certain that many of those also were evangelists as well.

You would be hard pressed to find concept nor the word for the modern day "church" in the NT.

Obviously you think the organization run by some "popes" and "bishops" is His Church.  It is not.

The "Church"  is the body of Christ.  The "Church" is composed of the saints.

BTW.  When you find an example in the Gospels of Jesus "sending His Church" anywhere  or "telling the Church" anything, could you please point that out?

You will find that if someone disagrees with you (especially if all you do is quote what the scripture says) then you will be asked "who gives you the right?"  or "who made you judge?"  which usually could be interpreted as "I have the right" or "I was made the judge"      However, someone can disagree and be accurate!   And, it is entirely possible that I am wrong.

Just present the scripture to back up what you are saying.  You are the one giving "opinions".  You haven't supported a single thing you claim.

Present the scripture that "plainly reads that Jesus sent His Church to teach all people".  You have been seriously mislead in what the Bible teaches about His Church.  Forget all that RCC stuff and just look to the Bible.

Quote Jimmy
You would be hard pressed to find concept nor the word for the modern day "church" in the NT.
 
Yes and I usually use the term assembly because that is what is in the NT.  While I do not believe the IC is sinful I do not believe it is commanded and in many cases is a stumbling block to the kingdom of God.

What does your Bible read in Matthew 16:18...My reads Jesus saying "I will build my church"

What is the IC?

Although I have decided to ignore you bibleteacher I will answer this for the benefit of others.  The word translated "church" in Matt 16:18 is the plural form of EKKLESIA (assembly) has noting to do with the IC catholic or otherwise.

Jimmy
 IC is institutional church.

I haven't seen you post a single truth yet... so I do not see your point.

Not every preacher is called to be a Pastor. As you said they have different callings.

I view most classifications of church leadership positions to be totally dependent on the affirmation of God's calling and bestowing of gifts on potential candidates.

As such.. there is no such thing as a self proclaimed minister... nor is their such thing as a salaried career 'professional' pastor, etc.

God gives us gifts as needed.. almost always on a temporary basis.  Those that seek to work in the ministry should seek to do so on a gift by gift basis to affirm their calling... allowing them to collect a salary is to deny the Holy Spirits leading of the church.

I agree with you there, Tantor.

Because one is paid, and the other spreads the gospel message for free (no salary).

Tantor
Yes I agree.  I also think you and anyone with half a brain know my ignoring bibleteacher has nothing to do with him teaching "truth".

I believe that the church has been given pastors (elders) and evangelists. they are different posistions. the church in the new testament have both. why do we find only one or the other in some denominations? i would submit that if a church was truly seeking to follow the bible it wouldnt stray from these commands. some people mistake the word elder to mean older people in the church but elders have specific qualifications (1 timothy 3:1-7).  in order to correctly follow the bible's commands we must attend the right church. if a church is not structured in this way how is it right? also we never see the word reverend anywhere other than psalms 111:9 and it is referring to God so why do modern day assemblies have reverends?

They're different things in the Bible.

There, a preacher is simply one who proclaims a message - a herald.  This person didn't create messages, or interpret them, or apply them for the listener.  He simply did the town crier thing - "Hear Ye! Hear Ye!"

Each church had a number of pastors - they were older members of the church who looked over the younger members, mentoring them and correcting them as necessary.  This person may have engaged in personal teaching, but they did not stand up before the congregation and give a sermon the way we think of it.

The sermon (oratio) didn't exist in the early church, which was modeled after synagogue.  Rather, each week there was a public reading of a passage of Scripture.  After this, the person reading (an elder in the church, this duty rotated among the elders) would give their interpretation and/or application of what was read.  Then, the other members of the church would, by turns, add their comments or disagreement, or alternate interpretation, and the church would discuss it.

The aim of such a discussion was not necessarily for everyone to agree about the meaning or doctrine.  Rather, it was for everyone to increase in learning about the Scripture in passage, which included interpretations other than what they held.

Jarrod

Acts 20:7 sounds like a sermon.  The ESV says "speech", not discussion.  (Not saying the discussion idea is wrong, just saying it sounds like sermons existed as well)

The Greek word for preaching the verse is dialegomai (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1256&t=KJV) (dialogue) which involves people conversing with each other.

In the New Testament, there are three words translated 'preach' which primarily occur in the context of evangelistic preaching.  We often hear 'preach' used to describe the teaching and exhortation done in church meetings.  I think 'teaching' or 'exhortation' is more in line with what we see in New Testament translations about this activity.

In a lot of churches, there is the concept of 'the preacher'-- a clergyman whose job it is to talk on Sunday morning.  We have to realize that a lot of our concepts come from tradition rather than scripture.  In the Bible, 'every one of you' could present a teaching in church.  From scripture we can see that the early church had a somewhat open floor in their meetings.  Some members were gifted with prophecy and were allowed to prophesy in church.  Paul presented a church meeting in which 'all prophesy' as an example of a good church meeting.  Those gifted to teach are to teach.  One does not have to be a 'clergyman' to do these things.  And from scripture it seems that multiple speakers would speak in one meeting, rather than everyone sitting and listening to just one preacher every single week.

Leadership was plural as well with a group of elders being charged with tending one church.  All elders are to be apt to teach.  Those who devote themselves to 'preaching and teaching' are to be especially honored.  Notice that 'teaching' is not a requirement for being an elder, but teaching is.  Elders are instructed to pastor (translated feed or tend) in Acts 20:28 and I Peter 5.  Teaching is something believers need.  Unbelievers, primarily, need 'preaching.'  It is good if elders minister in this regard.  But the requirement is that elders be able to teach believers.

Bonnie,

I never said anyone was called to do anything. I just said that the structure that is demonstrated for us in the NT consists of preachers and pastors separately. If we are told that they are separate then why do some religious groups combine them?


Jarrod,

I have already posted the qualifications for elders. so you cannot accurately state that they were just older people looking over the younger. you cannot tell me that all the old people met the qualifications. they were appointed members. yes they were often older but i would submit that that is because of the wisdom that usually comes with age.

and i think this should apply to the entire thread: a lot of people are basing their arguments on spiritual gifts but who had the gift of overriding the bible? my point is this...we are given directions and just like in a set of house plans for example, we only build what we are supposed to. nothing more and nothing less. so where do we get the authority to combine church offices? i think spiritual gifts should be left out of this thread since that is a another argument by itself.

1. Where does the NT speak of church offices or an institutional church as opposed to an assembly?

2.  The only way I see elders annointed in the NT was by the Holy Spirit or an inspired preacher,  So where is the method of getting men in this official office today?

3.  Where in the NT did a man or group of men make a decision for the assembly seperate and apart from "the whole assembly" ?

One thing is certain...In today's religous world, each assembly, no matter the affiliation, has some type of leadership.  Whether it be officially recognized positions, such as seen in the Roman Catholic Church, or unofficial leaders of just a gathering of Christians (i.e. the organizers of time, place, etc.)

Another fact, we see assemblies/congregations in the New Testament with a certain type of leadership organizational pattern (elders, deacons, etc.)

Since leadership is inevitable, why not just follow the example that we see in the NT.

Was it not the same Holy Spirit that annointed the elders in the first century, that guided Paul to pen the qualifications of elders we see in 1 Tim 3.

What you see as a check list of qualifications for an office.  I and many others see as attributes to recognize or anoint an elders.   Also as I understand Heb.  one can be a spiritual leader for me an perhaps not for everyone else in the assembly.  And my questions still go unanswered.

I know I'm not a greek scholar, so maybe somebody can help me.  Does 1 Tim 3:1 not say "office of overseer".

Also, another word in greek I'd like to have examined, is the word "must" in 1 Tim 3:2

Thank you in advance.

Stilts
Neither the word office nor must is in the original.  These are words that the translators of KJV added in an attempt to clarify.  This is a common pratice and often confusses the issue instead.  Here is the passage from Young's literal translation which is a word for word type of translation form the Greek.  Notice oversight or watching over is a work not an office.

1 Timothy 3 (Young's Literal Translation)

1 Timothy 3
 1Steadfast [is] the word: If any one the oversight doth long for, a right work he desireth;

 2it behoveth, therefore, the overseer to be blameless, of one wife a husband, vigilant, sober, decent, a friend of strangers, apt to teach,

 3not given to wine, not a striker, not given to filthy lucre, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money,

 4his own house leading well, having children in subjection with all gravity,

 ἐπισκοπή was used for "office" in the Septuagint, as in Psalm 109:8, "Let his days be few; Let another take his office."

However, there is no reference in the Greek to any work in the NT assembly being an office simply a work.

The fact that the word "office" does not appear in the Greek does not negate the fact that the body of elders, both under the old  covenant and under the new covenant, is treated in the Scriptures as a body of men set aside for special, albeit broad ranging, duties so far as the individual congregations (churches or assemblies) are concerned.  In the modern usage, that is much the same as "office".  It is a position of authority.  I personally believe it is that position or office that the Holy Spirit established (Acts 20:28) , not any one individual as an elder.

Paul's calling the elders of the church at Ephesus in Acts 22 is such an example.

I would agree that the overreaching approach of some religious groups to establish the "office" over more than a single church is probably to be avoided.

BTW,

The meaning associated with "behooves" is pretty much the same as "must".

I don't know.

I spent years in several churches looking for an answer to this question, because I knew inside that those people who were the heads of those churches were preachers, but there was no real "pastoring" going on.  When I finally found a teaching on the 5-fold ministry through Rick Godwin, I found my answers.  According to him, and my experience bears this out, apostles govern, prophets guide, evangelists gather, pastors guard and teachers ground (they get their people grounded in the Word).  I had a whole string of teachers who were the set men of the church, the preachers if you will.  Teachers can head a church, but some people draw a distinction between teaching and preaching.  Not sure what the difference is there.

The problem I had with the 5-fold teachers as heads of those churches was that they had no clue how to guard the sheep from destructive influences.  That wasn't their anointing!  But it took me years to catch up to that. And in the mean time, there was a lot of offense and a lot of hurt people.  And I also was under a true pastor who knew how to guard sheep who was a truly lousy preacher! He was operating in his anointing, though. Perhaps he should have delegated the preaching!  So there's my two cents.

Didn't you say the KJV translators had added the word "office" to the text?  In fact, there is translation precedent for ἐπισκοπή being interpreted as "office" 1700+ years before the translation of the KJV, and 300-400 years before the rise of the "IC" as you like to call it.

Jimmy
can you direct me where in Acts 22 that Paul called on the elders?

If the elders were the authoritative leaders of the assembly why did Paul not address all his letters to them?

Here are my original questions still unanswered
1. Where does the NT speak of church offices or an institutional church as opposed to an assembly?

2.  The only way I see elders anointed in the NT was by the Holy Spirit or an inspired preacher,  So where is the method of getting men in this official office today?

3.  Where in the NT did a man or group of men make a decision for the assembly separate and apart from "the whole assembly" ?

Olddad
1.  I did not say KJV was the first or only that added office.  in fact the most often use of clarifying words or phrases is what has been used before.

2.  The word in I Tim is ERGON  (I don't have the ability to type the Greek letter)   it simply work, employment or task. To the best of my knowledge it has never been directly (word for word) been translated office.

"(3) In first Tim 3:1 the word "office" in the phrase "the office of a bishop" , has nothing to represent it in the original."  W.E. Vine's "An Expository Dictionary or New Testament Words"

The verse in Greek is below with the translation beneath it:

    πιστός   ὁ λόγος      εἰ τὶς        ἐπισκοπή    ὀρέγομαι   καλός    ἔργον   ἐπιθυμέω
    a true    saying    [if] a man   the office     desires   a good   work   he desires

Of course, I followed the precedent of the LXX translating ἐπισκοπή as "office."

And the NASB translators, supposedly without the theological bias you ascribe to the KJV translators, saw fit to translate the verse this way: If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

Olddad
1. As I said before KJV was not the first or only translation that included the word office.  "where there is no bishop there is no king"  James insisted the office of a bishop be included.  However, I did not say that was the first or only reason it was there.  Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth?

2.  The age of a translation does not make it the best.  There were several problems with LXX as there is with many versions.  The Greek text we have today is based on  age, number of times used what is considered reliable and several other things.  I know of no reliable modern text that uses the phrase "the office..."  That is why Vine made the note that he did.  It has been eliminated because the evidence is over whelming that it was not in the originals. Since LXX was developed originally to help settle disputes over OT text for the jews it has a strong Jewish influnece and shows here.   

So the NASB, KJV. ESV, KJ21, American Standard, Douay-Rheims, World English Bible, Revised Standard, and New Revised Standard ALL got it wrong, don’t know what they’re talking about?  BTW, the Contemporary English Version says “church official” and the NKJV says “position of bishop” – so they’re all wet too, I guess.

1. I'm not sure why you keep using this argument.  I understand that the church is the body of Christ/the kingdom of God/bride of Christ...and so on.  I understand that the church (Jesus' church), the church of Christ, is not an institution, but a fellowship of believers/assembly of saints.

2. We see in 1 Peter that he is writing to the exiles of the dispersion, not to an institution....yet still, elders are addressed as something that existed.  Just as Peter addressed the elders among the elect, we realize that elders should come from among the flock.  Do we make our own rules for who is appointed.  No, we follow those laid down for us by the Holy Spirit.  We, through the Word of God, which is given to us through His Spirit, are able to discern what type of man God would have shepherd His flock.

3.  Then in 1 Pet 5, non-elders are told to be subject to elders.  This statement would make no sense if elders were not suppose to make decisions for the assembly.

Olddad
There you go putting words in my mouth again.  You are comparing apples and oranges.  I said Greek text not English translations.  Again the most often whay a clarifing word or phrase is determined is by past translations.  The simple fact is all the best evidence is that it is not in the Greek.  They all use church when the Greek is assmbly.  That still does not change the Greek text.   

Stilts
The reason I use these argument because in many churches it is an official office that is appointed by men to "rule" over a congregation and make decisions for them.  I believe this to be completely foreign to scripture.

ἐπισκοπή IS in the text, and does have precedence being translated from Greek as "office".

My point all along has been - I know you don't like the translation, but it is inaccurate to say:
 

In fact translators of newer versions working from much older manuscripts than the KJV have chosen to use some variation of the phrase "office of an overseer/bishop/elder."

Olddad

Except when it comes to IC we are often on the same side of many questions.  I don't ask this to offend or be any type of put down.  Have you ever taken a class in higher textural criticism ?   If so you should know as I have stated before these types of phrases are used to clarify not because of empirical evidence but because they were used before.  The only place I know of where the word you have referred to is in the LXX.  I have not seen it in any modern Greek text.   That is the standard the text not translation where a phrase has been added. 

If it is an office .  Please answer the questions I have ask about how we get them, and where is the example of them making decisions separate from the whole assembly?

Just because man misuses or misunderstands something doesn't make it not the right way.

God has designed in us the ability to procreate.  His will is for us to do this through our spouse.  When we misuse this ability, through fornication or adultery, it is us who are in error, not the design.

It is the same with the eldership....that's why Peter exhorted the elders to lead in a Christlike servant manner, not lording it over the flock.

Stilts
I am not denying that there are elders and other leaders in the assembly.  However as you pointed out they are servants of the assembly. (That was a big part of Jesus washing the apostles feet to teach service)  They are leaders that we follow willingly;not because of any "authority of an office" but because of their Godly life.   They are not commissioned to make decisions for the Christian or the assembly but are there with the love and wisdom to guide and advise both the individual Christian and the assembly.  Hope that helps clear my position (which I believe is in keeping with God;s intention) up.

 
Seriously?  You've not seen ἐπισκοπή in any modern Greek text?  I'm looking at my UBS third edition right now - and it's there in 1 Timothy 3:1.

BTW, ἐπισκοπή is also translated "office" in Acts 1:20.

Translators make informed choices based on the text before them.  I don't thinks it's either accurate or fair to say the reason translators chose to translate ἐπισκοπή as "office of overseer" in 1 Timothy 3 is because everyone else who came before them had done so.  I believe it disparages their work.

From The Expositor's Bible Commentary on 1 Timothy by Dr. Ralph Earle, Distinguished Professor of New Testament Emeritus, Nazarene Theological Seminary, page 363:


EDITED TO ADD:  I think I see a source of confusion - you seem to think the use of the word "office" is based on ergon (work) - it's not.  As Dr. Earle has pointed out, it is a valid translation of the abstract noun episkope.


Paul instructed Timothy to appoint elders - so there is to be some sort of pastoral appointment process based on the qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus.

And according to 1 Timothy 5:17, at least some of those elders "direct the affairs of the church" ("rule well" - NASB) and are worthy to be paid an honorarium.

Olddad
Hopefully in the future we can continue this discussion.  I will be leaving the board for some time.  I have much to do this week end.  I will be going to St Louis Monday and will be having open heart surgery Tuesday to replace my aortic valve and fix a aortic aneurysm.  If things go well I should be back on the board around the middle of July.  If not I will know much more on these subjects than I do now.  I have a lot of respect for you and hope I have said nothing to offfend.  God Bless

There was authority. The authority was to protect the flock from false teachers, and to teach the followers so they would recognize those false teachers. That's it. Period. They did other things, like pray, lay hands for healing, but the "authority" is to deal with shysters.

I believe Jesus presented the inverted pyramid of "leadership" for us, as opposed to the top-down hierarchy of our contemporary business world. Marriage/family is to use this same example.

****

The "office" of Acts 1:20 is a quote from Psalms, so you need to go there to see what was really being said. The Hebrew word is pĕquddah, and is a descriptive word:oversight, care, visitation; a responsibility. It has the connotation of being an administrative work, one who see to it that things are done, sometimes by delegating, and sometimes by doing it themselves.


I don't know why we argue about this. What does it matter, as long as the work for Jesus is being done?  ::headscratch::

johnb - We'll be praying for you.

Johnb - you will definitely be in my prayers and thoughts.

Don't give a second thought to how you've conducted yourself in this discussion - you have been honest and charitable.  I have enjoyed discussing this, even though we seem destined to disagree.  We are capable, I believe, of doing so agreeably.

God bless you, my brother.

Amen.

I apologize.  I should have said Acts 20, not Acts 22.

Also consider the classic passage in Ephesians 4:11, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12  for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; "


Some see this as "He gave some to be apsotles, etc."  meaning that the gift was given to some men to be apostles.

Others see this as the gift of the apostles to some churches, while to other churches He gave the gift of prophets, etc.  In this case it is clearly an office or a function that is the gift to churches.

I tend to agree with this second interpretation.  It seems to better fit the context.  Note the interpretation given in the ESV:

11  And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
12  to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
13  until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14  so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.