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Atheism's Failure
« on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 18:33:04 »
Charlie I was speaking tongue-in-cheek.  Don't always take me so literally.  Who do you think I am - Tim Lahaye  or Hal Lindsay?  By the way I do think you are all alike.

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« on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 18:33:04 »

Offline pdwblw

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« Reply #1 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 02:19:51 »
To whom it may concern:
I thought the purpose of this board was for Discussion for Christians (please see the top of the page).  I am all for witnessing to atheists but I am not sure this is the place for such blasphemous talk about the Savior of mankind.  Perhaps if it is to have a place here there could be a separate forum for discussions on atheism so all of us don't have to be subjected to it.  I would love it if B.H. would be born again but it seems he uses this board primarily for Christian bashing.  
I may be wrong in this and I am open for correction.  Perhaps I just need to find another board for discussion.  This has been a great board for growing in the Lord and has helped me with some of my legalistic judgemental attitudes.  Well, I do go on.  Maybe I just needed to vent.  Thanks for listening.

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« Reply #1 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 02:19:51 »

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« Reply #2 on: Wed Jul 03, 2002 - 04:37:04 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (pdwblw @ July 02 2002,09:38)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H.
Thanks for the reply.  I had feared you may reply with both barrels.  Sorry I misjudged you.  I will continue to pray for you.[/quote]
Thanks and no problem.

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« Reply #2 on: Wed Jul 03, 2002 - 04:37:04 »

Offline Booty

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« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 02:52:54 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ July 02 2002,9:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty,nerdneh, bobbyv, Barry, and Old Dad do you not have anything to say?  Your silence is deafening and you guys are the professional preachers.[/quote]
Barry,

I have been traveling. As to debating atheism vs. theism, I will try and explain to you once again. Some debates are best handled by not engaging. I know before I begin that I cannot prove the existence of God by Your criteria. I further know that Your criteria is the only criteria you will accept. So where do I go from there?

I agree with David, from personal experience and from what I saw on your II board to reenforce my conclusions, atheism is at best a hollow shell. A wispy cloud of rationalizations built on the foundation of a flawed premise. This results in a language which I find to be foreign to my own.

There is a God shaped vacuum within each man. History proves this conclusively. Worship of a deity or multiple deities has existed since the beginning of time. No amount of rationalization can deny that this basic need exists.

Accepting this intrinsic need in mankind, we then arrive at which deity best fills the need. Here I subscribe to the Christian triune of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Once again, I cannot prove the existence of Jesus by Your criteria. No way to even begin. But what I can do is remain steadfast in my love for you even when you are at your worst and most insulting.

Barry, you have slandered me, threatened what you believe to be my livelihood, (I am not a professional preacher, a profession is something you expect to gain your living from, I am a CALLED Preacher. I do not make a single punt from preaching), belittled the youth of my church and just generally been the hoorsmelt, (Forgive me my language). And for all that Barry, I still see an injured soul crying out for someone to reach out to you.

I cry when I think of how you must have been mistreated by the coC. I apologize for whatever happened to you and beg your forgiveness for them and us.

No Barry, I will not debate you. But I will love you.

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« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 02:52:54 »

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« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:11:04 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (David Mathews @ July 08 2002,10:03)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hello Booty, B.H. and everyone else:

Please stop speaking about each other.  There is no benefit whatsoever from this sort of discussion.  

If we want to discuss atheism, we can do so without talking about either Booty or B.H.  If our discussion of atheism requires that we talk about Booty or B.H., it is much better that no one discuss atheism.  

I don't want to hear any more about the argument between you two.  I really am not interested.  

If no one has anything productive or edifying to say, please do learn the wisdom of silence.

Sincerely,

David Mathews[/quote]
And just who started this thread?  Keep reading please David, my recent posts apply to you as well my dear one.

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« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:11:04 »



Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:35:25 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ July 08 2002,10:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why do I frighten you?  I offered you the invitation to visit us at II and they welcomed you with open arms did they not? You also started several threads over atheism here at GCM expecting me to comment on what you say.  David, I think you were wrong about atheists, most of them are not wanting to have god proven to them, it is you who want to be shown a way out of the darkness of theism.

One reason I was so blunt at first was because I wanted all of you to focus on this issue and begin to really think.  You did so and fell for my bait.  I know that even grace centered restorationists have a great desire to see the infidel routed and would use their brains to the greatest possible intellectual extent to defend the faith.  I got you committed and this set you up for what was to follow.  I enventually was able to show you how theism, especially Biblical theism, is full of assumptions and holes.  Next, I made you understand that atheism is in fact a lack of faith (belief,trust, love, ect of a deity) and not necessarily the strict denial of the existence of a deity (what if a god(s) do exist? what good is there in that fact if you know nothing about what that god thinks or feels?)  I showed how the Bible could be overthrown using the same arguments used against the Koran or any other "holy book" found on earth.  Last I challenged you to prove the Bible actually was a complete and clear moral guide to many issues, which you were unable to do.  So, in fact the Bible is really nothing but man's wisdom passed off as a divine wisdom.
You claim man cannot make it on his own, but Christians, Jews, and Muslims have been doing so de facto for the last 2,400 years.

I do care about everyone on this board.  I may not be perfect, but I want what is best for all of you.[/quote]
Hello B.H.,

You do not frighten me.  This present thread must end, though.  It must end because I have no interest in the conduct of the discussion.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews

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« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:35:25 »

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« Reply #6 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 23:21:55 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ July 09 2002,10:12)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You have been caught red handed on the baptism thing and will not admit you made a mistake so what should I think of your character baptism thingie[/quote]
B.H.,
I am still waiting for you to provide the quote from Booty stating that those who refuse baptism are pleasing to God. You wouldn't provide the quote on the other thread and won't answer my request. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that what you are posting is correct, but I need proof as I cannot find this quote myself. I did find where he said that God was merciful enough to accept the confession of those who were beheaded prior to being baptized. That is a whole lot different than refusing to be baptized. I would like for you to add some meat behind your allegations and show some proof. Just find the quote, hit the right click on the mouse and do a cut and copy. It's that simple. You stated that you can't find the quote, but it sure does seem to be an important one for you to have forgotten.

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #7 on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 05:36:10 »
Hello Everyone,

I am presently involved in a discussion with atheists regarding
theism and atheism. There was a time when I was young and scared of
atheism, atheism was so terrifying that I feared and loathed
atheists. Since that time I have gained a lot of knowledge directly
from atheists, enough to remove any vestige of fear of atheism. I
don't loath atheists any longer, I sympathize with them.

The primary weakness of atheism is atheism's lack of positive
content. A philsophy which lacks positive content is meaningless and
vacant.

Atheism's lack of positive content is brought about by necessity, not
by choice. The positive claims that atheists could make are subject
to refutation. Atheists know that their claims can be refuted, and
refuted rather easily, and that is what compels them to avoid making
any claims abou reality, the Universe, God or mankind.

In contrast to atheism, theism does possess positive content. All of
the positive content of theism is subject to challenge and
refutation. All of the theistic arguments for God are refutable, all
of Biblical apologetics is subject to refutation, and all of the
claims regarding Jesus' nature are subject to refutation.

In spite of all the weaknesses of theism, something is always better
than nothing. Hence theism always has the advantage over atheism.

This is good news indeed, for those who are willing to accept it.

Sincerely,

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 06:09:13 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (David Mathews @ June 30 2002,11:03)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]That is the fallacy of the unwanted consequence.   Just because you see something you do not like with a position does not mean that position is false.  What if we are nothing but maggot food when we die?  Just because we may not like it is not going to change reality.[/quote]
Hello B.H.,

What you say is correct, and I wholeheartedly agree with it.  It applies with equal force to atheistic and theistic concepts.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews[/quote]
Thank you for your honesty David.  I apologize for being rude to you when you first came here too.

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 06:09:13 »

Offline David Mathews

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« Reply #9 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 00:56:40 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ June 30 2002,11:07)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Just because you see things in religion that make you feel good does not mean those things are true.

Just what do you mean by "positive" anyway David?

Things I think are positive about atheism are:

-We can concentrate on making our lives here better.
-No more donating money to churches, mosques, synagoges,ect. instead using it for other purposes.
-Learn to appreciate what we have and only will have: this life.
-no more brainwashing by and cowering to false teachers like the Goebel Musics,Foy Wallaceses, Roy Cogdills, Jim Joneses or whoever for that matter. No more stupid spiteful disagreements over things that you see Florida College fighting over. No one need fear being ostracized from friends and family just because they disagree with some stupid little religious rule.[/quote][/quote]
Hello B.H.,

When I say that Theism is positive, I am not saying that theism makes me feel good.  What I am saying is that theism does make claims about reality which are meant to explain its origin, meaning and destiny. Theism also makes claims about humanity which attempt to explain mankind's origin, meaning and destiny.  

Atheism offers no explanations for either the Universe or humankind.  

Regarding atheism's positives, B.H.: I am confident that you appreciate those benefits of atheism.  What I must say in response is:

-- Theists can concentrate on making their lives on earth better.

-- Donating money to the church is not a terrible thing, Christians ought to enjoy giving their money to a good cause.

-- Christians can and should appreciate this life, treasuring the value of every moment.

-- Christians should oppose brainwashing.

-- Spiteful disagreements among Christians are terrible and they should end.

-- Christians should not ostracise fellow Christians because of any religious disagreements.  

I find a lot of common ground between my Theism and B.H.'s atheism.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

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« Reply #10 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 01:14:03 »
Foy was right on when it came to the Holy Spirit.
He said what people did not want to hear.

Me

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« Reply #11 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 05:13:49 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In contrast to atheism, theism does possess positive content. All of
the positive content of theism is subject to challenge and
refutation. All of the theistic arguments for God are refutable, all
of Biblical apologetics is subject to refutation, and all of the
claims regarding Jesus' nature are subject to refutation.

In spite of all the weaknesses of theism, something is always better
than nothing. Hence theism always has the advantage over atheism.

This is good news indeed, for those who are willing to accept it.[/quote]
Just because you see things in religion that make you feel good does not mean those things are true.

Just what do you mean by "positive" anyway David?

Things I think are positive about atheism are:

-We can concentrate on making our lives here better.
-No more donating money to churches, mosques, synagoges,ect. instead using it for other purposes.
-Learn to appreciate what we have and only will have: this life.
-no more brainwashing by and cowering to false teachers like the Goebel Musics,Foy Wallaceses, Roy Cogdills, Jim Joneses or whoever for that matter. No more stupid spiteful disagreements over things that you see Florida College fighting over. No one need fear being ostracized from friends and family just because they disagree with some stupid little religious rule.[/quote]
B.H.,
Did you do the voice of the teacher on Charlie Brown? Blah, blah, blah, waa, waa, waa. Your silly comments and theories sound like that.[/quote]
Your comments sound worse than the teacher from Charlie Brown, because you offer nothing to back your comments up.  Please give me specific details why you think I am so wrong.  You do not help matters any making little silly comments like you did.  If you give me specific reasons why I sound like the teacher from Peanuts I may be able to help you better understand my position.

Or is it that you do understand my position and are in a state of "gall and bitterness" and are "gnashing your teeth" because I refute your false doctrine and you are angry about it.

Besides the point, you said before you are a legalistic and tradionalist (in another post) so why aren't YOU getting up and refuting all the LIBERALISM you see in Mathews, Booty, nerdneh, ect. posts.  Typical hypocrite you are.  You probably don't even know why you are ranting against me or anyone else here other than the fact you have been told to do so all of your life.

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« Reply #12 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 16:38:49 »
B.H.
Thanks for the reply.  I had feared you may reply with both barrels.  Sorry I misjudged you.  I will continue to pray for you.

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« Reply #13 on: Wed Jul 03, 2002 - 04:38:16 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Arkstfan @ July 02 2002,10:08)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH was called out so he gets no blame on that.

I'm willing to tolerate this thread as long as it doesn't become a cancer spreading into other threads.[/quote]
Thanks Arkstfan.

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« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 08, 2002 - 23:02:55 »
Actually, BH, I am not preaching at a church now, just teaching classes here and there and doing seminars, etc. If I thought I had some brilliant answer I would post, but sometimes it is OK just to read and digest things. Besides, the kids came down to visit over the 4th and we were watching some fireworks, rather than trying to light some ourselves.

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« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 04:49:51 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty you asked me why I am afraid of love. I am not afraid of love, now tell me why you are afraid of atheism? [/quote]

An inate primal fear of a dark black vacuum.

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« Reply #16 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:07:33 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H.

If you have not been hurt and had nothing but good experiences with CoC, why do you put-down, insult, harrange, etc. those who try to have a civil discussion with you?

It seems you try to brow-beat and pound on anyone who will even talk with you on this discusson board.  Are you the only one who has a right answer?

If you can read back through all of your posts and say that you love anyone, please show me the post.  IMO the ones that you are nice too, very few, you are trying to manipulate.

B.H. I'm sorry but when you slander my brothers and sisters, you slander me.

Bill[/quote]
Bill, I have told several through the pm road that I do indeed care for a lot of the people here.  If anyone reading this has received a pm where I have stated this please post the fact on this thread.  And Bill, just how have I slandered anyone?  Was it calling Gus Nichols a false teacher that so affronted you or the fact that I caught Booty in a greivous inconsistency during our baptism debate? We all pretty much share the same view regarding Goebel Music so I do not see how discussing "Behold the Pattern" did any real harm.

I have admitted that I do indeed have a very gruff and polemical nature that I need to work on toning down at times.  If you knew me personally I think you would never assosciate me with the posts I make here.  Maybe I get this from my CoC background and what can I say? I was taught well wasn't I?

What I think really irks you Bill is the same thing that irks booty and David Mathews: you have really outgrown your faith as have I, but you, unlike me, are afraid to make that last step.  I think you are in fact jealous of me and that is why you are very less tolerant towards me as you are others.

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« Reply #17 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:17:38 »
Thanks for your reply, B.H.

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« Reply #18 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:47:58 »
I am afraid that I cannot honor that request David.  This is not your board and  so you cannot stop any thread that is functioning here.  If you wish for it to stop you are welcome to ask one of the moderators to do so, but the lock will be taken justly as an admission of defeat on your part.  After all you started it and now cannot win it and are exposing yourself as having no desire to admit it.

I am glad you are not afraid of me David.  I am not afraid of you either, at least not anymore.

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« Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 14:51:20 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hello Everyone,

This thread should really end now.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews[/quote]
David my brother,

Greetings in the love of Christ.

David, the thread header itself is incendiary so we are now reaping the logical end result of what we started. As to ending the thread I would heartfully recommend that we do not.

Barry is a prodigal, a lost sheep, a lost coin. He has taken the rather dramatic stance of avowing atheism. Yet he frequents this site. Originally not disclosing his atheism yet entering into the discussions here in a manner that would lead you to believe he is a brother in the faith. Granted a brother with his shorts a bit too tight, but then do we not see this all too often in our beloved "Taliban" brothers steeped in legalism?

He also occasionally "Invites" one of us over to the ii for "Serious" discussion with atheists. Like you I too have made the journey. I asked a simple question there, "Why are you afraid of love". A question that could have come from a Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist or anyone. The nature of the board as you are aware is not conducive to serius discussion. I was quickly branded another "Sky Pilot" and ridiculed and jeered. The majority of the ridicule was of inferior quality even stooping to the low of ridiculing my nickname, "Booty".

Not a really admirable history here at GCM, but then I have continually seen a streak of decency in Barry for all his posturing and blustering. I strongly feel he has been molded in great part by us, the church of Christ. He exhibits characteristics that are embarrassingly very coC.

Have you ever been threatened with disfellowship, David? Has your witness been questioned because of your "Heretical" study of oriental philosophies?, (By the way, I study brehon, Druidic Law), has it ever been said you should be removed from your calling because of your "Heresy"? Have you ever had a single point that you raised in total sincerity be taken out of context and misconstrued to prove you "Unsaved"? Has a commission ever been contemplated to investigate and correct you?   Any of this sound familiar? It is coC, very coC sadly.

Barry ended his spiritual journey in a One Cup congregation. One Cup, a schism that is based in legalism, the very narrow interpretation that the cup must be passed and shared. We are all familiar with the verses they use to arrive at their viewpoint, Mt 20:22,23; 26:27 Mk 10:38,39; 14:23 Lk 22:17 Objectively reading these passages, the cup itself was apparently passed. The One Cup adherents have a valid point. But then we could also take their point a step further and deny us all the blood of the Lord. We could interpret these passages as referring specifically to the particular cup that Jesus offered to the disciples. We then would become adherents of the One Particular Cup!!   (Too bad we exclude instruments, I do believe that deserved a wee roll on the brodhan and perhaps a trumpet!!).

I respect the One Cup folks their opinion. Actually I rather support it, we share a common cup when we gather on the beach.  But I do not in any way feel it is grounds for a division of church unity and for this reason I label this a legalism.

Legalisms, dogmatisms I do not agree with, difference I do. If the congregation in the next village follows the One Cup practice and is willing to accept and respect our multiple cups, praise the Lord. But when they commence attacking our opinion and condemning us for our different point of view, they are breaking the unity of His church.

We have nearby a congregation that does not touch wine nor spirits, another congregation nearby uses real wine in their communion. When we meet for shared services, the "Dry" group is served grape juice and the "Wet" wine during the communion. Side by side they participate in the Holy Supper of our Lord receiving jointly the pact in His blood.

This is UNITY as our Lord desired. This is UNITY as was the original theme of our movement, Unity in the faith, Liberty in opinion and Charity for each other above all  

Barry at one point in time threatened me that he would contact a One Cup friend who is in charge of overseas missions to send a missionary here to set me straight on various points. We currently have a very serious split occurring in the western portion of the country, a grace based congregation has taken the stand that the Lord and not them decides who is saved. A legalistic congregation has judged, condemned and disfellowshipped them for this. The ripples spread, if you have contact with the disfellowshipped congregation, then you too are disfellowshipped. Commissions are being formed and groups of legalists are traveling to and fro, up and down on it investigating and judging.

David, we painfully know how costly travel is. We have a missionary vision. We are dedicated to planting other congregations in other villages. This involves travel, quite a bit of it. We are also painfully aware how many communities exist where there is NO CHURCH OF ANY FLAVOUR. Communities where people either travel considerable distances to a Catholic congregation on festival days or they simply do without. We are committed to planting "House Churches" in as many of these communities as we can. I know the Lord provides for this mission, he has abundantly and I have every confidence that  He will continue. But Lord forgive me, I do get upset when I think of the time and resources being squandered in pride and vanity by traveling commissions to enforce a uniformity with dogmatisms! Oh do not misunderstand me, we do not want their money. Far from it, but I would love to see one of these commissions at least take the time to witness during their travels, at least when they stop to eat so it would not INCONVENIENCE them.    

My beloved Barry is a product of this narrow dogmatic vision, he is a product of legalism. My firm opinion is we should make all effort to maintain contact with him. David, he's here for a reason, he is not ready to admit it but I know you can see it as well. Barry is seeking.

I do not like some of his methods, I do not like my Lord being called the "Big J". I do not like reading of "my little Elihus" being threatened. But I love the man who typed it.

Brother, forgive me, perhaps I too am like Elihu on this fine morning. Bursting like new wine. Forgive me my form and manner, "My Elihus" call me the world's oldest teenager and my tact is lacking at times. But David, let us continue with Barry.

From the breastplate of St Patrick

Christ be with me

Christ be within me

Christ behind me, Christ before me

Christ beside me, Christ to win me

Christ to comfort me, Christ above me

Christ in quiet, Christ in danger

Christ in hearts of all that love me

Christ in mouth of friend and stranger

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« Reply #20 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 17:12:48 »
Booty,

You are wrong in saying I cam from a one cup background.  I was reared non-class but with multiple cups and later went to a "mainline church."  I was never a one cupper, but I did often visit the one cup church in my home town.  

When they first came here in the early 80's my old non-class church slugged it out with them, along with the class folks.  The non-class folks and class folks pretty much fellowshiped each other despite their opinions but the one cup folks: no way!  If one of us visited their church we would be regarded as false and not even spoken too.  Later when I grew up I investigated the issue,studied with their preacher, and now that same preacher admits sunday school is begrudgingly not a sin (one cuppers are non-class too) , non-institutionalism should be dropped, and the Lord's Supper was originally observed using Jewish Haggadah tradition.  In other words it is not a sin to use more that one cup in communion.  It took me 8 years to do all of that and for the first two years I was merely tolerated in the assembly because I was young and "there was hope for me."  I did not change the guys mind acting like I am toward you either:  I was patient, I was kind, i was loving, ect., ect. , ect.  The difference between him  and you is he was willing to learn and change.  You have been caught red handed on the baptism thing and will not admit you made a mistake so what should I think of your character?  I think I have a very good reason to want a missionary to see what you are up to.  I would really like to come myself, but I doubt they would listen to a mean old atheist like me, would they?

I am VERY glad you shared with us about the situation in Venezuela.  I will look up some of my friends (remember BH still has lots of connections!) in the hateful, legalistic, burn heretics-at-the-cross CoC and see who I can contact who may want to come to your church and set you straight on the baptism thingie.  Since my one cup friend is broke I guess another mainliner will have to do.

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« Reply #21 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 23:00:25 »
If he did, then his household would be sanctified by her being there.

I Corinthians 7:14, NKJV: "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy."   0D}

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« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 06:00:50 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (David Mathews @ June 30 2002,10:36)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The primary weakness of atheism is atheism's lack of positive
content. A philsophy which lacks positive content is meaningless and
vacant.

Atheism's lack of positive content is brought about by necessity, not
by choice. The positive claims that atheists could make are subject
to refutation.[/quote]
That is the fallacy of the unwanted consequence.   Just because you see something you do not like with a position does not mean that position is false.  What if we are nothing but maggot food when we die?  Just because we may not like it is not going to change reality.

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« Reply #23 on: Mon Jul 01, 2002 - 06:32:06 »
The Church of Christ teaches that one cannot condemn one over differences of opinion.  Since your theism is nothing but an opinion in your eyes and admit it you cannot condemn atheism.  See, that is funny, you can da#n me and excommunicate me for supporting an orphan home out of the church treasury according to your theology, but you cannot condemn my atheism because that is just a difference of opinion. I think Roy Cogdill, Foy Wallace, Alex. Campbell and Floyd Decker are all turning over in their graves right now!

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« Reply #24 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 01:06:56 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (David Mathews @ July 01 2002,6:00)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Church of Christ teaches that one cannot condemn one over differences of opinion.  Since your theism is nothing but an opinion in your eyes and admit it you cannot condemn atheism.  See, that is funny, you can da#n me and excommunicate me for supporting an orphan home out of the church treasury according to your theology, but you cannot condemn my atheism because that is just a difference of opinion. I think Roy Cogdill, Foy Wallace, Alex. Campbell and Floyd Decker are all turning over in their graves right now![/quote]
Hello B.H.,

I think that the whole orphan home controversy was foolish from the beginning.  The church has made many mistakes, including divisiveness and judgmentalism.  

I would never condemn you or anyone else for supporting an orphan home.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews[/quote]
What about helping a non-CoCer from the church treasury?  What about instruments?  What about the anti-class brethren that the class brethren told so many lies about over the years?

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« Reply #25 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 04:20:15 »
pdwblw, My thinking is that whatever discussion group you get into, someone will have an agenda that is not where you are. I appreciate the spirit you display in your posts, and I guess it's a little like going to those twenty-six screen movie palaces, a whole lot of stuff is playing that you wouldn't pay a dime to see.

Still, hopefully, there will be something helpful and profitable. I know this board needs people with your positive attitude. I profit from reading what you have to say.

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« Reply #26 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 06:01:42 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Just because you see things in religion that make you feel good does not mean those things are true.

Just what do you mean by "positive" anyway David?

Things I think are positive about atheism are:

-We can concentrate on making our lives here better.
-No more donating money to churches, mosques, synagoges,ect. instead using it for other purposes.
-Learn to appreciate what we have and only will have: this life.
-no more brainwashing by and cowering to false teachers like the Goebel Musics,Foy Wallaceses, Roy Cogdills, Jim Joneses or whoever for that matter. No more stupid spiteful disagreements over things that you see Florida College fighting over. No one need fear being ostracized from friends and family just because they disagree with some stupid little religious rule.[/quote][/quote]
Hello B.H.,

When I say that Theism is positive, I am not saying that theism makes me feel good.  What I am saying is that theism does make claims about reality which are meant to explain its origin, meaning and destiny. Theism also makes claims about humanity which attempt to explain mankind's origin, meaning and destiny.  

Atheism offers no explanations for either the Universe or humankind.  

Regarding atheism's positives, B.H.: I am confident that you appreciate those benefits of atheism.  What I must say in response is:

-- Theists can concentrate on making their lives on earth better.

-- Donating money to the church is not a terrible thing, Christians ought to enjoy giving their money to a good cause.

-- Christians can and should appreciate this life, treasuring the value of every moment.

-- Christians should oppose brainwashing.

-- Spiteful disagreements among Christians are terrible and they should end.

-- Christians should not ostracise fellow Christians because of any religious disagreements.  

I find a lot of common ground between my Theism and B.H.'s atheism.

Sincerely,

David Mathews[/quote]
Again, just because atheism may not tell you something you want to know/be true (like how we got here or where we are going) does not mean it is wrong and that you are correct.

Create your own purpose for your life. Quit worrying about whether or not someone else has one made for you.

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« Reply #27 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 07:02:01 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Foy was right on when it came to the Holy Spirit.
He said what people did not want to hear.

Me[/quote]
Please elaborate some more please.  I still think Foy Wallace was a worthless child of Belial whose opportunism has caused a lot of grief for people.

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #28 on: Tue Jul 02, 2002 - 17:08:12 »
BH was called out so he gets no blame on that.

I'm willing to tolerate this thread as long as it doesn't become a cancer spreading into other threads.

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« Reply #29 on: Wed Jul 03, 2002 - 04:44:16 »
Booty,nerdneh, bobbyv, Barry, and Old Dad do you not have anything to say?  Your silence is deafening and you guys are the professional preachers.

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« Reply #30 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 04:24:25 »
Why does everyone think that I have been hurt in some way?

The experience I had with the non-class folks will be some of the best memories I have in life.  They were well balanced in their theology and taught love and grace along with doctrine.

The class church I went to when non-class shut down has some very sweet people going to it who I think fondly of.  Lastly, my experience with the one cup group was positive overall as well.

What happened is that I realized  faith in god is really no different than belief in Santa Claus.  It serves a purpose and makes you feel good, but there is a time to grow up.  It was your own St. Paul who said "When I was a child...I spoke like a child but when I became a man I put away childish things."

I realized that the god of the Bible did not exist due to the reasons I have given before and really do not need him to live a happy and meaningful life.  Why is it so important that you have some god up in the sky going to get you if you are bad or reward you if you are good.  Look at all of the fine folk here at GCM and II, Booty, and tell me why you cannot feel love and warmth for them without a faith in God like you do now.  Why do you have to have a faith in god to be moved with compassion for a hungry old lady or a child that has lost her mother?  You really don't, unless you just refuse to do so.

I think that you are the ones that are embittered and I dare say frightened.  You really are nothing but a bunch of frightened children in need of someone to love and comfort you and you find this in your god.  Love and comfort each other and stop pretending that there is some invisible god out there.

Booty you asked me why I am afraid of love. I am not afraid of love, now tell me why you are afraid of atheism?

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« Reply #31 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 05:21:22 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hello Everyone,

This thread should really end now.  

Sincerely,

David Mathews[/quote]
David,

Why do I frighten you?  I offered you the invitation to visit us at II and they welcomed you with open arms did they not? You also started several threads over atheism here at GCM expecting me to comment on what you say.  David, I think you were wrong about atheists, most of them are not wanting to have god proven to them, it is you who want to be shown a way out of the darkness of theism.

One reason I was so blunt at first was because I wanted all of you to focus on this issue and begin to really think.  You did so and fell for my bait.  I know that even grace centered restorationists have a great desire to see the infidel routed and would use their brains to the greatest possible intellectual extent to defend the faith.  I got you committed and this set you up for what was to follow.  I enventually was able to show you how theism, especially Biblical theism, is full of assumptions and holes.  Next, I made you understand that atheism is in fact a lack of faith (belief,trust, love, ect of a deity) and not necessarily the strict denial of the existence of a deity (what if a god(s) do exist? what good is there in that fact if you know nothing about what that god thinks or feels?)  I showed how the Bible could be overthrown using the same arguments used against the Koran or any other "holy book" found on earth.  Last I challenged you to prove the Bible actually was a complete and clear moral guide to many issues, which you were unable to do.  So, in fact the Bible is really nothing but man's wisdom passed off as a divine wisdom.
You claim man cannot make it on his own, but Christians, Jews, and Muslims have been doing so de facto for the last 2,400 years.

I do care about everyone on this board.  I may not be perfect, but I want what is best for all of you.

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« Reply #32 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 06:17:08 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ July 08 2002,10:47)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
Hello B.H.,

Do whatever you wish ...

Sincerely,

David Mathews

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« Reply #33 on: Tue Jul 09, 2002 - 18:43:56 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am VERY glad you shared with us about the situation in Venezuela.  I will look up some of my friends (remember BH still has lots of connections!) in the hateful, legalistic, burn heretics-at-the-cross CoC and see who I can contact who may want to come to your church and set you straight on the baptism thingie.  Since my one cup friend is broke I guess another mainliner will have to do. [/quote]

Barry,

I just got back from checking that the guest room has fresh linens. Let me know when we can pick up your Main Liner friends since your One Cup friends are broke. Please advise if they have any special dietary requirements or special things that we have a hard time finding here. I am looking forward to meeting these folk who travel around the world sort of like Vigilantes for Christ. What a concept!

Lad I am sorry, but you are making yourself look pretty silly. Give it a rest. Forgive me if I have baited you to this frenzy.

Let's see if we could try something new.

Barry, hypothetical question. Could you conceivably fall in love with and marry a dedicated Christian lady? Of course one whose doctrinal beliefs are not offensive to you.

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« Reply #34 on: Wed Jul 10, 2002 - 06:28:28 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You have been caught red handed on the baptism thing and will not admit you made a mistake so what should I think of your character baptism thingie[/quote]
B.H.,
I am still waiting for you to provide the quote from Booty stating that those who refuse baptism are pleasing to God. You wouldn't provide the quote on the other thread and won't answer my request. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that what you are posting is correct, but I need proof as I cannot find this quote myself. I did find where he said that God was merciful enough to accept the confession of those who were beheaded prior to being baptized. That is a whole lot different than refusing to be baptized. I would like for you to add some meat behind your allegations and show some proof. Just find the quote, hit the right click on the mouse and do a cut and copy. It's that simple. You stated that you can't find the quote, but it sure does seem to be an important one for you to have forgotten.[/quote]
Doyle,

It is an inference I drew from the statements MASouth brought up in the other thread where we are discussing this.  I think I am getting your drift at what you are alluding to:  I was mistaken to say Booty said one is saved/pleasing to God while "refusing" baptism when I actually should have said Booty stated a person is a saved believer without having to be baptized.  Gotch ya!  That is still a biblically erroneous view is it not?  Thanks for calling me on that mistake too!

Booty, you are not a false teacher because you said one can please god while refusing baptism.  For that I sincerely apologize.  However, you are indeed a false teacher and deceiver for saying one is saved at the point of believing only without having been baptized.  You did flipflop there for sure.