Author Topic: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible  (Read 32420 times)

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thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #35 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 10:58:44 »
While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture on earth and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible.

All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the AV 1611 KJV first edition, reprinted a billion times and loved by Christians for over 400 years.

The KJV is also loved by the Jehovah's Witnesses because it WRONGLY translates "monogenes" as "onlybegotten" giving the impression that Jesus had a beginning.

All the ancient translations correctly said "only" or "unique" which is the true translation. Had the KJV translators not botched up in translating "monogenes" we would have an easier time doing Christian apologetics.

thinker

The JW use a KJV, but it is translated different then what we use as it takes a trained eye to see how they have twisted the word of God. I know this as my sister used to be JW and when she left that she showed me the Bible they use and pointed out many of the twisted scriptures to me as we compared mine and their Bible

Debbie,

You are correct that the JW's use the KJV. They carry both the NWT and the KJV with them so they can "prove" to the Christian from his own Bible that Jesus had a beginning. Jesus is called God's "monogenes" Son. The "genes" part of the word literally means "to come into being." So the JW's absolutely love the KJV.

But all the ancient translations including the Sahidic Coptics translate it simply as "only" or "unique." This was because the "genes" part of the word had become silent by Jesus' day.

Then the KJV translators had to come along and mess with faithful translation and now Christian Apologists are paying for it. Thankfully all modern translations have recaptured the ancient meaning of the word. But the JW's say that the modern translations are "apostate." So we must take them back to the ancient readings.

I know firsthand that the KJV makes doing apologetics with the JW very difficult.

thinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #35 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 10:58:44 »

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #36 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 17:01:49 »
Every English denomination used the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible until the 1881 RV.


thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #37 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 18:23:57 »
Every English denomination used the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible until the 1881 RV.



I know that it may appear to some that I am bashing the KJV. Let me assure all that I am not.  I just want the "KJV only" people to be real and admit that it has some serious flaws. The word "monogenes" in reference to Jesus was NOT translated "onlybegotten" by any of the ancient translations including the Sahidic Coptics. The ancient translators rendered it simply as "only" or "unique" because the idea of origin which was inherent in the "genes" part of the word had been dropped before new testament times.

The Hellenists used the word "monogenes" as the equivalent of the Hebrew word "yachad" which simply means "only." God told Abraham to offer up his "only" (yachad) son Isaac. Hebrews 11 in referring to Isaac uses the Greek "monogenes" in place of the Hebrew "yachad." It was used the same way in secular history.

The KJV translators departed from the faithful translation of the word "monogenes" in reference to God's Son but maintain it in reference to the centurion's son. The KJV says "only begotten" (monogenes) in reference to Jesus but simply "only" (monogenes) in reference to the centurion's son. And boy do the JW's love it!

All the modern translations have recaptured the ancient meaning of the word but the JW's say that they are "apostate." So I always have to do the work of taking the JW's back to the ancient translations.

thinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #37 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 18:23:57 »

Offline fish153

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #38 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:43:44 »
When Webster collated the English language, 1828, his dictionary matched the KJV Bibles exactly. The earlier bibles, Wycliffe Bible 1362, Tyndale Bible 1522, Coverdale Bible 1535, Great Bible 1539, Geneva Bible 1560, Bishops Bible 1568, were not completed English. All KJV Bibles are editions of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible first edition. Language is word definition. KJV 2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture on earth and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible.

All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the AV 1611 KJV first edition, reprinted a billion times and loved by Christians for over 400 years.

Makahiya--

Again, you speak as if English is the only language, and also the superior language.  Where did you get that idea?  There are still 2040 languages on earth without scriptures.  Must they all be translated into 1611 King James English to be effective?  You never answered that question.  Your statement that the KJV is the "scripture of final authority" is ludicrous.

The KJV is a wonderful and poetic version of scripture.  It is great for memorizing, and truly is a masterpiece of translation.  However, there are many other more modern translations that fit today's English which are no less authoritative in nature.  God is not limited to 1611 my friend.   ::smile::

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #38 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:43:44 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #39 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:49:54 »
I did not say only the KJV Bible is scripture.

I said all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I did say the corrupt English translations of the corrupt Alexandrian reconstructed Greek N.T. texts give precedence to the corrupt Vaticanus.












KJV Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #39 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:49:54 »



Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #40 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:54:00 »
#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts were inspired. There are no original manuscripts.

KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


#2. You cannot honestly say “the bible

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #40 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:54:00 »

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #41 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 23:34:54 »
What inspired scripture do you have ?

p.rehbein

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #42 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 06:33:42 »
Monogenēs (μονογενὴς) is a Greek word which may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais only child, or only legitimate child, special child, and also on its own as a noun; o monogenēs "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".
The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: firstly the use of the term in the cosmology of Plato. Secondly on the use of the term in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).


you can google monogenes, and go to Wikipedial to read the entire artcle concerning the definiton of this word.  Especially as it is used in the Old Testement, and the New Testement.


p.rehbein

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #43 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 06:38:51 »
..........you needed two threads for this stuff about the 1611 KJV?

really? no, seriously, really?


(maybe a Mod will stumble onto this thread and merge it with your other....................  ::pondering::)

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #43 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 06:38:51 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #44 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 07:24:17 »
Every English denomination used the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible until the 1881 RV.
I think you mean the KJV 1769.  The 1611 is almost unreadable.

A passage of John 3 from the 1611:  (a hint - "s" was shaped like "f," "u" and "v" were frequently interchanged and there was no "J")

10 Iefuf anfwered, and faide vnto him, Art thou a mafter of Ifrael, and knoweft not thefe thingf?
11 Uerely, verely I fay vnto thee, We fpeake that we doe know, and teftifie that wee haue feene; and yee receiue not our witneffe.
12 If I haue tolde you earthly thingf, and ye beleeue not: how fhall ye beleeue if I tell you of heauenly thingf?
13 And no man hath afcended vp to heauen, but hee that came downe from heauen, euen the fonne of man which if in heauen.
14  And af Mofef lifted vp the ferpent in the wilderneffe: euen fo muft the fonne of man be lifted vp:
15 That whofoeuer beleeueth in him, fhould not perifh, but haue eternall life.
16  For God fo loued þe world, that he gaue hif only begotten fonne: that whofoeuer beleeueth in him, fhould not perifh, but haue euerlafting life.
17 For God fent not hif fonne into the world to condemne the world: but that the world through him might be faued.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 07:32:40 by DaveW »

p.rehbein

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #45 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 07:57:56 »
Every English denomination used the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible until the 1881 RV.
I think you mean the KJV 1769.  The 1611 is almost unreadable.

A passage of John 3 from the 1611:  (a hint - "s" was shaped like "f," "u" and "v" were frequently interchanged and there was no "J")

10 Iefuf anfwered, and faide vnto him, Art thou a mafter of Ifrael, and knoweft not thefe thingf?
11 Uerely, verely I fay vnto thee, We fpeake that we doe know, and teftifie that wee haue feene; and yee receiue not our witneffe.
12 If I haue tolde you earthly thingf, and ye beleeue not: how fhall ye beleeue if I tell you of heauenly thingf?
13 And no man hath afcended vp to heauen, but hee that came downe from heauen, euen the fonne of man which if in heauen.
14  And af Mofef lifted vp the ferpent in the wilderneffe: euen fo muft the fonne of man be lifted vp:
15 That whofoeuer beleeueth in him, fhould not perifh, but haue eternall life.
16  For God fo loued þe world, that he gaue hif only begotten fonne: that whofoeuer beleeueth in him, fhould not perifh, but haue euerlafting life.
17 For God fent not hif fonne into the world to condemne the world: but that the world through him might be faued.



 ::headscratch::

ow,ow,ow,ow,ow.........................headache..................
 ::lookaround:: ::noworries::

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #46 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 08:40:26 »
My question is: who cares about all this nonsense you are posting makahiya. It's a waste of time that you could be spending in the word of God listening to His Spirit teach you all things instead of picking and tearing it apart by definitions of different translations that really no one can understand by your post. We are not to partake that of foolishness and so depart from it.

Eph 5:1  Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2  And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3  But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4  Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7  Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8  For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10  Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #47 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 09:11:38 »
I did not say only the KJV Bible is scripture.

I said all scripture is given by inspiration of God.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I did say the corrupt English translations of the corrupt Alexandrian reconstructed Greek N.T. texts give precedence to the corrupt Vaticanus.

I was speaking to the "KJV only" folks.

Quote
KJV Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Show where I was referring to you or to anyone specifically.


thinker

thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #48 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 09:23:10 »
Monogenēs (μονογενὴς) is a Greek word which may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais only child, or only legitimate child, special child, and also on its own as a noun; o monogenēs "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".

Thanks! That's what I have been saying. So the KJV translators botched it up when they rendered it "onlybegotten."

Quote
The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: firstly the use of the term in the cosmology of Plato. Secondly on the use of the term in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).


you can google monogenes, and go to Wikipedial to read the entire artcle concerning the definiton of this word.  Especially as it is used in the Old Testement, and the New Testement.

We are concerned ONLY with how the Hellenists used it. The gospel of John was written to Hellenists Jews. The Septuagint translation of the old testament is from the Hellenist Jews and it uses "monogenes" to translate the Hebrew word "yachad" which means "only" and not "onlybegotten."

There is also a serious issue with the KJV's rendering of Jude 4-5. But I hesitate bringing up that one because the "KJV only" folk may have a heart attack.

thinker

Offline DaveW

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #49 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 10:24:24 »
Quote
Septuagint translation of the old testament is from the Hellenist Jews and it uses "monogenes" to translate the Hebrew word "yachad" which means "only" and not "onlybegotten."
? ? ? ?

Yachad means "unity" or "one."

Ps 133.1  Behold, how good and how pleasant it is,
For brothers to dwell together in unity

Hine ma tov u ma naim,
shevet achim gam yachad.

thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #50 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 10:37:44 »
Quote
Septuagint translation of the old testament is from the Hellenist Jews and it uses "monogenes" to translate the Hebrew word "yachad" which means "only" and not "onlybegotten."
? ? ? ?

Yachad means "unity" or "one."

Ps 133.1  Behold, how good and how pleasant it is,
For brothers to dwell together in unity

Hine ma tov u ma naim,
shevet achim gam yachad.

Yeppers!

thinker

thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #51 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 10:42:09 »
Quote
Septuagint translation of the old testament is from the Hellenist Jews and it uses "monogenes" to translate the Hebrew word "yachad" which means "only" and not "onlybegotten."
? ? ? ?

Yachad means "unity" or "one."

Ps 133.1  Behold, how good and how pleasant it is,
For brothers to dwell together in unity

Hine ma tov u ma naim,
shevet achim gam yachad.

Yeppers!

thinker

BTW,

Yachad is used when God told Abraham to offer his ONLY son.

thinker

Offline DaveW

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #52 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 11:26:10 »
Where are the Hebrew and Aramaic NT manuscripts in your list?

Like the various Hebrew versions of Matthew? (found in India - according to Eusubius and Origen brought there by Bartholomew) We have manuscripts dated back to the 14th century but the ancient church father Jerome who translated the Vulgate (circa 400 ad) said this about it:
Quote
"Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered."

Pamphilus was the Jew who brought back the copy from India.

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #53 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 13:11:10 »
When an individual says “ the original Greek

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #54 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 13:14:26 »
KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

thethinker

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #55 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 13:20:14 »
When an individual says “ the original Greek

Offline makahiya

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Re: Sola Scriptura vs. Sola Ecclesia
« Reply #56 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 14:06:18 »
Strong Delusion: Dangers in Strong's Concordance and other Greek and Hebrew

reference works. - www.avpubluications.com

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #57 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 14:12:29 »
You're quoting a corrupt bible !


KJV Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.











KJV Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself ?

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #58 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 21:41:12 »
#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts were inspired. There are no original manuscripts.

KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


#2. You cannot honestly say “the bible

Offline DaveW

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #59 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 05:27:20 »
Quote
#3. You cannot honestly say “the Greek N.T.

Offline DaveW

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #60 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 05:30:25 »
That did not answer the question.

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #61 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 05:35:20 »
I've often wondered why the received text was rejected by the modern bible publishers in favor of the Alexandrian texts?

p.rehbein

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #62 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 06:39:12 »
Quote from doublenickle:

My question is: who cares about all this nonsense you are posting makahiya. It's a waste of time that you could be spending in the word of God listening to His Spirit teach you all things instead of picking and tearing it apart by definitions of different translations that really no one can understand by your post. We are not to partake that of foolishness and so depart from it.
========================================================================

 ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::amen!::

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #63 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 12:08:17 »
Do you have inspired scripture ?

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #64 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 12:16:02 »
sales, pride, apostasy 


Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #65 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 12:23:16 »
While the entire line of scripture are records, the outstanding record of scripture on earth and the scripture of final authority is the published text and form of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible.

All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the AV 1611 KJV first edition, reprinted a billion times and loved by Christians for over 400 years.



Psalms 119:58 . . . be merciful unto me according to thy word.
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psalms 119:114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning . . .
Psalms 119:161 . . . my heart standeth in awe of thy word.
Psalms 138:2 . . . thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words . . .

p.rehbein

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #66 on: Thu Mar 08, 2012 - 05:13:28 »
I am beginning to wonder about ya..............

 ::pondering::

you continually post the same material without regard for questions asked of you, as if this will somehow explain the stuff you are posting..............you seem "taken" with continually posting:

"Do you have inspired Scripture?"

Would it not be logical that anyone who reads the Bible is reading the inspired words of God?  I know, I know, you contend that only this 1611 thingy is the true Bible, S-N-A-P !  u-do-kno-that it was a "translated" work as well don'tcha?

p.rehbein

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #67 on: Thu Mar 08, 2012 - 05:15:02 »
sales, pride, apostasy 



r-u-from another web-site somewhere in cyberspace?

r-u-trolling?

 ::pondering::
I dunno, but I am beginning to wonder............


Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #68 on: Thu Mar 08, 2012 - 06:45:46 »
The subject is Sola Scriptura Theology. The topic is the Record Theory.

Offline makahiya

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Re: AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
« Reply #69 on: Thu Mar 08, 2012 - 23:18:45 »
KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Do you have scripture ?

What scriptutre do you have ?

Be sincere, explain to me how a reconstructed Greek text or a translation

is inspired ?

 

     
anything