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Offline RB

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Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 03:36:57 »
Without God we can't.  Without us He wont.

That is a good thought, that strikes a balance in freewill versus sovereignty.
All depends on what is the subject that is under consideration.

I'm not a proud Republican, but I'm very humble to see and understand God's sovereignty in the regeneration of a sinner, and give no credit to the golden calf of the twenty-first century......man's so-called freedom of his will as far as the inward ability to do good works toward his coming to a knowledge of God WITHOUT God FIRST giving him the power/authority to do so.

The balance is only in the heart of a man who wants to be co-partners with Christ in his salvation from sin and condemnation~in the scriptures the SAME power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead is the SAME POWER that resurrected every dead sinner from being dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 1:19,20...NO balance of power, but ALL on God's part the only source being God's will not ours! 
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 03:53:23 by RB »

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Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 03:36:57 »

Offline RB

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:23:51 »
It has been said many times by men before me...."The sinner IS free, but free in ONE DIRECTYION ONLY~free to fall. free to sin. The scriptures expresses it in this way:
Quote
Romans 6:20~"for when ye were servants of sin, ye were FREE FROM righteousness."
In what does the sinner’s freedom consist? This question is naturally suggested by what we have just said above. The sinner is “free” in the sense of being unforced from outside. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not “free” to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin.

Let us illustrate what we have in mind. If I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens? It falls. In which direction? Downwards; always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it. Suppose I desire that book to occupy a position three feet higher; then what? I must lift it; a power outside of that book must raise it. Such is the relationship which fallen man sustains toward God. While divine power upholds him, he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn, and he falls — his own weight (of sin) drags him down. God does not push him down, any more than I did that book.

Let all divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas and a Charles Manson. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? IMPOSSIBLE!

A power OUTSIDE of man and GREATER than man MUST GRASP HOLD OF HIM AND LIFT HIM EVERY INCH OF THE WAY, or else there is NO HOPE for man.

As said above~The sinner is free, but free in ONE DIRECTION ONLY~ free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were FREE FROM righteousness” Romans 6:20. The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

Does it lie within the power of the sinner’s will to yield himself up to God? Let us attempt an answer by asking several others: Can water (of itself) rise above its own level? Can a clean thing come out of an unclean? Can the will reverse the whole tendency and strain of human nature? Can that which is under the dominion of sin originate that which is pure and holy? According to the prophets and  Paul in Romans 8 it cannot.  If ever the will of a fallen and depraved creature is to move God-wards, a Divine power must be brought to bear upon it which will overcome the influences of sin that pull in a counter direction.

This is only another way of saying,
Quote from: Jesus
John 6:44~“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me, draw him”.
In other words, God’s people must be made willing in the day of his power~See Psalms 100:3 As said a prophet of old, “If Christ came to save that which is lost, free will has no place. Not that God prevents men from receiving Christ~ far from it. But even when God uses all possible inducements, all that is capable of exerting influence in the heart of man, it only serves to show that man will have none of it, that so corrupt is his heart, and so decided his will not to submit to God (however much it may be the devil who encourages him to sin) that nothing can induce him to receive the Lord, and to give up sin...except God's power in operation toward the sinner, who is a servant of the devil and sin.

If by the words, "freedom of man", they mean that no one forces him to reject the Lord, this liberty fully exists. But if it is said that, on account of the dominion of sin, of which he is the slave, and that voluntarily, he cannot escape from his condition, and make choice of the good~ even while acknowledging it to be good, and approving of it~ then he has no liberty whatever. Just as Paul said more than once....
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:7,9~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be; So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

The will is not sovereign, God alone is; it is a servant to sin because influenced and controlled by the other faculties of man’s being. The sinner is not a free agent because he is a slave of sin~ this was clearly implied in our Lord’s words,
Quote
John 8:36~“If the Son shall therefore make you free, ye shall be free indeed”
Man is a rational being and as such responsible and accountable to God, but to affirm that he is a free moral agent is to deny that he is in bondage to sin and the devil~ depraved in his will as far as righteousness and loving the light thereof. Because man’s will is governed by his mind and heart, and because these have been vitiated and corrupted by sin living under deception of the devil himself, then it follows that if ever man is to turn or move in a God-ward direction, [God himself must work in him “both to will and to do of his good pleasure”~Philippians 2:13

Man’s boasted freedom is in truth the “bondage of corruption”; he “serves divers lusts and pleasures.” As one has well said:  “Man is impotent as to his will. He has no will favourable to God. I believe in free will; but then it is a will only free to act according to nature. A dove has no will to eat carrion; a raven no will to eat the clean food of the dove. Put the nature of the dove into the raven and it will eat the food of the dove. Satan could have no will for holiness. We speak it with reverence, God could have no will for evil. The sinner in his sinful nature could never have a will according to God. For this he must be born again” (J. Denham Smith). In other words: THE WILL IS REGULATED BY THE ITS NATURE.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:31:25 by RB »

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:23:51 »

Offline RB

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:38:02 »

Offline RB

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:44:23 »
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXh9ZdxC1MM
The book published by Baker House is so much better than the one published by Banner of truth.

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:44:23 »

Offline RB

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:50:04 »
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ownuPCHAu6A
By Jonathan Edwards the first President of Princeton....... Jonathan Edwards | The Presidents of Princeton University https://www.princeton.edu/pub/presidents/edwards/

This one-hour sermon is EXCELLENT and worth anyone's time listening to it~so POWERFUL of a sermon from one of America's brilliant minds in both theology and higher learning~not to mention he was very disciplined in godliness from a young age even to his death.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 05:09:28 by RB »

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:50:04 »



Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:57:01 »
the SAME power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead is the SAME POWER that resurrected every dead sinner from being dead in trespasses and sins. 

Brother Red, I believe that. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that.


I believe folks are saved purely by the Grace of God through the Blood of Jesus Christ. That salvation is by the works of God, not the works of men.

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 04:57:01 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #6 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 07:19:10 »
In what does the sinner’s freedom consist? This question is naturally suggested by what we have just said above. The sinner is “free” in the sense of being unforced from outside. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not “free” to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin.
That is a gross misstatement and presents a warped view of God and everything He is and does.  Of course God never forces the sinner to sin.  But according to your precious A.W, Pink and that theology that you present, God gives man a spirit already dead in Adam's sin.  And then to make matters worse, that dead spirit can't see, hear, taste, smell or feel anything true and relevant concerning God and anything that is good.  God doesn't need to force the sinner to sin; according to you God created the sinner with no way to do anything else.  And that is your view of God and His sovereignty in a nutshell.  And you call that Grace.  What an obscene concept of God.
Quote from: RB
Let us illustrate what we have in mind. If I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens? It falls. In which direction? Downwards; always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it. Suppose I desire that book to occupy a position three feet higher; then what? I must lift it; a power outside of that book must raise it. Such is the relationship which fallen man sustains toward God. While divine power upholds him, he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn, and he falls — his own weight (of sin) drags him down. God does not push him down, any more than I did that book.
That is a really bad illustration.  Because in fact according to Pink's theology, the book is already on floor.  You may have it in your hand but it is down as far as it can go.  Being a sinner is just that.  One is either a sinner or a saint.  It is one or the other.  There is no gradation involved.  One sinner may in fact behave "worse" than another sinner, but they are both sinners.  Same with the saint, one saint may behave more "righteously" than another saint, but they are both saints.  And the book?  God put it on the floor to begin with.
Quote from: RB
Let all divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas and a Charles Manson. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? IMPOSSIBLE!
Ah but you see --  it is not about becoming a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas and a Charles Manson.  According to Pink [Reformed Theology and you] God created every man as a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas and a Charles Manson at his very birth.  According to you every man comes out of the womb as a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas and a Charles Manson and that by God's own hand.  Thus declares the LORD, who.......formed the spirit of man within him..(Zech 12:1)
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 07:21:51 by 4WD »

Offline soterion

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jun 27, 2018 - 08:45:52 »
Well, Adam sinned without being created a sinner and Jesus was born fully as a man, and was by virtue of that birth fully a man by nature, and He did not sin.

To me, that kinda blows the whole "born in sin" concept out of the water.

Offline RB

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 05:04:29 »
Well, Adam sinned without being created a sinner and Jesus was born fully as a man, and was by virtue of that birth fully a man by nature, and He did not sin. To me, that kinda blows the whole "born in sin" concept out of the water.
Not so fast........ should you not take comfort in that understanding~actually what you have said should be a witness to you of man's depravity by nature.
Quote from: soterion Yesterday at 08:45:52
Well, Adam sinned without being created a sinner
That is correct. Adam was "created" not born a sinner, or with a sinful nature after the image of the devil, but was created UPRIGHT, placed in a perfect paradise, with one simple commandment and THEN LEFT TO HIMSELF, and he sinned after God created Eve....the FIRST day in paradise WHEN LEFT TO THEMSELVES without God's assisting them to NOT sin~....we know the result of that and see the result and feel the results every day we live in THIS BODY OF SIN AND DEATH.

Adam's sin proves that God ALONE is immutable and cannot sin. Yes, Adam sinned WITHOUT a sin nature, HOW MUCH MORE wicked are his offsprings that inherit his image AFTER he sinned?  You picked a wrong analogy to prove your point.
Quote from: soterion Yesterday at 08:45:52
Jesus was born fully as a man, and was by virtue of that birth fully a man by nature, and He did not sin
Jesus was born a man, but NOT from the SEED OF ADAM, but was conceived by the Holy Ghost, and as God's ONLY BEGOTTEN Son live without sin~which PROVES that through Adam's posterity (seed) no man could have redeemed fallen man EXCEPT through the VIRGIN BIRTH of Jesus Christ was there a sure hope of securing eternal life for God's elect. Two covenant one by works through the first Adam and one by grace through the second Adam. Jesus Christ coming into the world ONLY PROVES that man is born in sin~not just one but every single one of Adam's children,

Again you picked a wrong analogy to prove your point.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 09:16:01 by RB »

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 05:04:29 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 06:29:21 »
Adam's sin proves that God ALONE is immutable and cannot sin. Yes, Adam sinned WITHOUT a sin nature, HOW MUCH MORE wicked are his offsprings that inherit his image AFTER he sinned?  You picked a wrong analogy to prove your point. Jesus was born a man, but NOT form the SEED OF ADAM, but was conceived by the Holy Ghost,......
Sorry RB, but I think it is you who has picked the wrong analogy.  You are using SEED in a non-biblical way.  But you are not alone.  It is somewhat typical to think of SEED as the male sperm.  That is not the case.  When spoken of in terms of the human being, SEED simply means DESCENDENTS.  We see that in Genesis 16 where God promised to multiply the SEED of Hagar exceedingly.

KJV  Gen 16:10  And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

ESV  Gen 16:10  The angel of the LORD also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude

NASB Gen 16:10  Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count."


There are several other occasions in the Bible where SEED of the woman is referenced.  So indeed Jesus was from the SEED of Adam through Mary, the mother of Jesus.  Mary was a descendant of Adam and so was Jesus.  Mary's impregnation by the Holy Spirit does not change the fact that Mary, and hence Jesus, was a descendant of Adam, just as everyone else.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 06:31:59 by 4WD »

Offline BTR

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 07:12:52 »
Well, Adam sinned without being created a sinner and Jesus was born fully as a man, and was by virtue of that birth fully a man by nature, and He did not sin.

To me, that kinda blows the whole "born in sin" concept out of the water.

Right, he did not do sin. But these verses came to mind, And gives some understanding also. I have been trying but I just dont see it as "blown out of the water".


He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.  -2Cor. 5:21

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Literally: flesh of sin) and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, -Rom. 8:3


Offline AVZ

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 07:18:01 »
Sorry RB, but I think it is you who has picked the wrong analogy.  You are using SEED in a non-biblical way.  But you are not alone.  It is somewhat typical to think of SEED as the male sperm.  That is not the case.  When spoken of in terms of the human being, SEED simply means DESCENDENTS.  We see that in Genesis 16 where God promised to multiply the SEED of Hagar exceedingly.

KJV  Gen 16:10  And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

ESV  Gen 16:10  The angel of the LORD also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude

NASB Gen 16:10  Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count."


There are several other occasions in the Bible where SEED of the woman is referenced.  So indeed Jesus was from the SEED of Adam through Mary, the mother of Jesus.  Mary was a descendant of Adam and so was Jesus.  Mary's impregnation by the Holy Spirit does not change the fact that Mary, and hence Jesus, was a descendant of Adam, just as everyone else.

Adam was created by God without the involvement of impregnation. Yet we can all agree that Adam was fully man.

I don't think that scripture ever claims that Mary supplied the egg for her impregnation. Neither does scripture claim the Holy Spirit supplied the sperm.
There is no reason to believe that Jesus had any DNA from Mary.
So it is well possible that Jesus was created directly in the womb of Mary.

In that scenario Jesus could have been fully man, yet unaffected by sin inherited from Adam.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 07:33:54 »
Adam was created by God without the involvement of impregnation. Yet we can all agree that Adam was fully man.
You do not know that. It certainly was without the impregnation by a man, but that is all we know concerning any "impregnation"..
Quote from: AVZ
I don't think that scripture ever claims that Mary supplied the egg for her impregnation. Neither does scripture claim the Holy Spirit supplied the sperm.
There is no reason to believe that Jesus had any DNA from Mary.
So it is well possible that Jesus was created directly in the womb of Mary.

In that scenario Jesus could have been fully man, yet unaffected by sin inherited from Adam.
The don't think that Scripture ever claims that Eve supplied the egg for her impregnation either.  Actually I don't think that Scripture ever claims any woman supplied the egg for their impregnation.  You supposition about that is moot.

There is no reason to believe that Jesus DIDN'T have DNA from Mary.  But there is plenty of reason to believe that DNA has nothing to do with the spirit of man, Jesus or anyone else.  And sin is not carried in the DNA in any circumstance.

All are unaffected by sin inherited from Adam.  Sin is not inherited  --  PERIOD.

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 07:38:29 by 4WD »

Offline Alan

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 07:45:02 »
Adam was created by God without the involvement of impregnation. Yet we can all agree that Adam was fully man.

I don't think that scripture ever claims that Mary supplied the egg for her impregnation. Neither does scripture claim the Holy Spirit supplied the sperm.
There is no reason to believe that Jesus had any DNA from Mary.
So it is well possible that Jesus was created directly in the womb of Mary.

In that scenario Jesus could have been fully man, yet unaffected by sin inherited from Adam.


I can hear the Catholics cringing now.  ::eek::

Anyhow, that's an excellent thought and quite possible but unfortunately not supported by scripture, in fact genealogy records in Matthew may indicate otherwise.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 07:52:21 »
In the records in both Luke and Matthew God goes to great lengths to demonstrate the actual physical human lineage of Jesus.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:19:05 »

I can hear the Catholics cringing now.  ::eek::

Anyhow, that's an excellent thought and quite possible but unfortunately not supported by scripture, in fact genealogy records in Matthew may indicate otherwise.

Yes most certainly a valid point, however not without dispute.
There are two genealogies of Jesus in scripture: One in Matthew and one in Luke. Both are intrinsically different on some points.

Some say that the genealogy in Matthew is Jesus' genealogy through Joseph.
If that is correct than it would show that scripture not necessarily takes Jesus genealogy to be biological. After all Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.
But then the genealogy through Mary (in Luke) also not necessarily has to be a biological genealogy.

In Luke 2:48, Mary says: "Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you" referring to Joseph as "father".
It is well possible that Jesus too called Joseph "father", and it would not be unthinkable at all the disciples also referred to Joseph as "Jesus father".
So if the term "father" here is not used as a biological indicator, then not necessarily means that "mother" has to be a biological indicator.

What I am saying is that scripture is not clear on these matters.
We do not for certain know if the genealogies were written from a biological point of view, or a legal point of view.

I am also not sure if scripture ever uses the term "pregnant", but I am not certain about this.
What I do know is that scripture does use terms as "with child" and "the child you will bear".
Mary could have been the vessel through which Jesus was born into this world, without ever have been biologically related to Him.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:20:53 »
How to properly balance God's Sovereignty with Man's Free Will?

Accept both as true, and stop trying to fully explain how seeming contradictory teachings can harmonize.  Once one does this, they most likely will explain away one for the benefit of the other.

Offline soterion

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:21:15 »
Scripture nowhere teaches that sin is inherited. People are not born sinners. Sinfulness, or even some supposed sin nature, is not passed down from parent to child. It is all faulty thinking with no scriptural support. Sin is a spiritual concept. While it does manifest in thoughts, words, and actions, it originates in the heart (Matthew 15:19). The origin or cause of sin is not passed down as if in the DNA or some other physical vector. Sinfulness or a sin nature will not be found in the physical realm to be passed down from parent to child. Only attributes and characteristics found in the physiology are passed down from parent to child. Sin is not found in or transmitted through physiology.

How anybody can believe that spiritual characteristics are passed down from parent to child through physical means is beyond me. ::frown::  What about parents who were cleansed of sin and are free from all sin, and later have a child? Doesn't that child inherit their sinlessness? It would have to make sense if people inherit the spiritual nature of their parents. None of that is true, of course. Sin is taught, either by example from observation or from actual purposeful education. People are not born sinners, they, we, have to be taught by the world.

Adam sinned. He was not created a sinner or with a sin nature, yet he still sinned. Nothing in scripture teaches that Adam's nature changed after he sinned. He felt guilty and his behavior changed because of that guilt, but his nature as a human did not change. After he sinned he remained the same creature God created; just his circumstances changed. We were all born with the same nature Adam was created with. We all sinned for the same reason he sinned.

Jesus was fully a human with all the nature of a man. Jesus came into the world through a natural birth from the womb of Mary and from her egg. If not, then Jesus could not truthfully be of the seed of David (Romans 1:3) nor, if I understand Luke's genealogy correctly, be of the seed of Mary (Luke 3:23). Nor could it truthfully be said He had to be made like His brethren in all things and actually partake of flesh and blood (Hebrews 2:14, 17).

Offline AVZ

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:28:05 »
How anybody can believe that spiritual characteristics are passed down from parent to child through physical means is beyond me. ::frown:: 

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

See a cow has zero spiritual characteristics, yet you are more than ready to believe that the offspring of a cow will also have zero spiritual characteristics.
Which could be an indicator that spiritual characteristics, or the ability thereof, is indeed passed on biologically.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:33:59 »
One more time:

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Flesh begets flesh;  ONLY the Spirit begets spirit.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:37:04 »
Adam is the FIRST in the history of the HEBREWS which is the OPPOSITE of the Babylonian Creation and Cosmology.  Adam was not the first human of the WORLD history which goes back millions of years.  In a parallel sense the Jesus People are NOT OF this World and Jesus said that He didn't pray for those.

If PREDESTINATION meant the random selection of some to burn in hell--even embryos, the MARK of the LOST is the inability to honor the Spirit OF God by quoting complete thought patterns or paragraphs.

Peter identified PRIVATE INTERPRETATION or FURTHER EXPOUNDING of the already-expounded-by-Jesus and left for our memory.  That despises (blasphemes) The Holy Spirit OF God (His Spirit) because Jesus CERTIFIED His certifying Holy Scripture which is that He says CONCERNING ME.

Romans 9-11 is Paul STOPPING in the middle of a LETTER to debunk the Jew's belief that THEY were could not be lost because God had CHOSEN them. ALL of Paul's discussion is to PROVE to those who CAN HEAR that God selected some to be the CARRIER of the Seed of Abraham: He did not send those OT in the Messianic line to hell.  Failure to be able to quote CONTEXT is the MARK that the VEIL is still over people's eyes because THEIR SINS denies them the Right to Know. Jesus said that God HIDES from the WISE or Sophists.



Offline soterion

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 08:49:21 »
Can you clarify what you mean by this?

See a cow has zero spiritual characteristics, yet you are more than ready to believe that the offspring of a cow will also have zero spiritual characteristics.
Which could be an indicator that spiritual characteristics, or the ability thereof, is indeed passed on biologically.

A logical fallacy if I ever saw one. ::whistle::

My reasoning is in the post you quoted from. What should decide is what does scripture teach, but...

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 09:03:15 »
Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also
         THERE IS a remnant according to the election of grace.

That has nothing to do with you unless you are a VERY OLD JEW.

Rom. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom. 11:8 (According as it is written,
        God hath given them the spirit of slumber,
        eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom. 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom. 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened,
       that they may not see, and bow down their back alway

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:33:52 »
All depends on what is the subject that is under consideration.

I'm not a proud Republican, but I'm very humble to see and understand God's sovereignty in the regeneration of a sinner, and give no credit to the golden calf of the twenty-first century......man's so-called freedom of his will as far as the inward ability to do good works toward his coming to a knowledge of God WITHOUT God FIRST giving him the power/authority to do so.

The balance is only in the heart of a man who wants to be co-partners with Christ in his salvation from sin and condemnation~in the scriptures the SAME power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead is the SAME POWER that resurrected every dead sinner from being dead in trespasses and sins. Ephesians 1:19,20...NO balance of power, but ALL on God's part the only source being God's will not ours!

The argument of free will (Armenianism) vs. predestination (Calvinism) is centuries old.   

Proponents of both sides of the debate can quote numerous scriptures to justify their position.  What they cannot do or perhaps what they refuse to do is to consult the BIBLE for the answer and to admit to the truth of it.   Both groups are right and both groups are wrong.

"Many are called, but few are chosen." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 22:14

The gospel quotes Jesus as He handles both sides of the argument between the proponents of John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius.  Jesus says here that both called and chosen are part of the Kingdom of Heaven.   OK, so who are the called and who are the chosen?

The Bible refers to Jews as the chosen people.   

The Bible demonstrates this chosenness by declaring God's COVENANT with them.  Beginning with Abraham and extended through Moses God repeatedly expresses His intention to make Jews HIS people - His chosen people.   Jews are the few people who are chosen - the predestined of God to be included in His kingdom.

The Bible refers to gentiles as the called people.

In Luke 14 Jesus relates an allegory.   In His story, a banquet was held and the host invited many guests.   Unfortunately, many who were invited refused to come to the party so the author of the feast sent his servants out into the streets to invite people to come in and eat.   Thus many decide of their own free will to come to the party.  They are the 'called' because the chosen refused the hospitality of the Master.  The allegory is actually played out in history as Jews reject the gospel of Christ while gentiles accept it.  God thus extends His mercy to the called - in the NEW COVENANT, which is really the same as the old except with the inclusion of gentiles in the Kingdom of Heaven and Jesus' promise that He would be with us all.

Focusing only upon the church and denying the inclusion of Jews in the Kingdom of God has caused many circuitous and caliginous doctrines to spring up among Christians.  It's led to much ignorance bias and division among those who might otherwise recognize one another as brethren.

Arminius and Calvin were both right and both wrong all at the same time.   Life can be strange at times especially when humans become obstinate and refuse to accept the truth of the Bible as well as one another.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...     
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:38:56 by Choir Loft »

Offline soterion

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 12:06:50 »
The argument of free will (Armenianism) vs. predestination (Calvinism) is centuries old.   

Proponents of both sides of the debate can quote numerous scriptures to justify their position.  What they cannot do or perhaps what they refuse to do is to consult the BIBLE for the answer and to admit to the truth of it.   Both groups are right and both groups are wrong.

"Many are called, but few are chosen." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 22:14

The gospel quotes Jesus as He handles both sides of the argument between the proponents of John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius.  Jesus says here that both called and chosen are part of the Kingdom of Heaven.   OK, so who are the called and who are the chosen?

The Bible refers to Jews as the chosen people.   

The Bible demonstrates this chosenness by declaring God's COVENANT with them.  Beginning with Abraham and extended through Moses God repeatedly expresses His intention to make Jews HIS people - His chosen people.   Jews are the few people who are chosen - the predestined of God to be included in His kingdom.

The Bible refers to gentiles as the called people.

In Luke 14 Jesus relates an allegory.   In His story, a banquet was held and the host invited many guests.   Unfortunately, many who were invited refused to come to the party so the author of the feast sent his servants out into the streets to invite people to come in and eat.   Thus many decide of their own free will to come to the party.  They are the 'called' because the chosen refused the hospitality of the Master.  The allegory is actually played out in history as Jews reject the gospel of Christ while gentiles accept it.  God thus extends His mercy to the called - in the NEW COVENANT, which is really the same as the old except with the inclusion of gentiles in the Kingdom of Heaven and Jesus' promise that He would be with us all.

Focusing only upon the church and denying the inclusion of Jews in the Kingdom of God has caused many circuitous and caliginous doctrines to spring up among Christians.  It's led to much ignorance bias and division among those who might otherwise recognize one another as brethren.

Arminius and Calvin were both right and both wrong all at the same time.   Life can be strange at times especially when humans become obstinate and refuse to accept the truth of the Bible as well as one another.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

In Matthew 22:14, the called are all of those invited to the wedding feast. The chosen are all of those from out of the called who responded appropriately. The man at the end of the parable was not chosen because he was not dressed appropriately; he was rejected.

Offline tooldtocare

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 13:37:28 »
The Bible refers to Jews as the chosen people. 

Yes it does and the Bible says a lot more--------------
WHY THEY WERE CHOSEN
(Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
(Deu 7:7 KJV) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
(Deu 7:8 KJV) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh King of Egypt.
(Deu 7:12 KJV) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he swore unto thy fathers:
(Deu 7:13 KJV) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kin, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God

They were chosen to show us the way, to show us how to treat the stranger, how to be compassionate and loving to your neighbor and by doing so peace would envelope the world.

(Mal 3:5 KJV)  And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Deu 1:16 KJV)  And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
(Deu 24:19 KJV)  When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.
(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.
(Deu 24:21 KJV)  When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow
(Ezek 22:7 KJV)  In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.
(Exo 22:21 KJV)  Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Exo 23:9 KJV)  Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
(Lev 25:35 KJV)  And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Ezek 36:17 KJV)  Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Ezekiel 21:32 (ASV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I, Jehovah, have spoken it.

..According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

 ::tippinghat::
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 13:55:27 by tooldtocare »

Offline tooldtocare

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Re: Balancing man's free will with God's sovereignity.
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 14:51:30 »
The greatest gift God gave us is the ability to choose.
Then He gave us guidelines to follow, while the choice to do this or that was left up to us to decide.
So please choose wisely; something I have failed to do from time to time
 ::tippinghat::

 

     
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