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Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #245 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 13:30:41 »
Norton,
Quote
In Ephesians Paul does deal with Jewish and Gentile division in the church, but I see no reason to interpret "works" in Eph 2:8-9 as meaning works of the Law of Moses. I certainly would not interpret "works" in the following verse as works of the law of Moses. I don't think Paul is saying they were created in Christ to do works of the Law of Moses. Paul is saying that salvation is a gift, not something we earn. Earning something is done by works of obedience whether we are talking about Evangelical theology or making a living. If you are obedient and you do what the boss wants and commands you to do, whether it is twiddling your thumbs or shoveling coal, you get paid. Your pay is not a gift, you have earned it. A close match to "works of obedience" is "righteous things we had done" in Titus 3:5 NIV. In II Tim 1:9 Paul excludes "anything we have done" as the cause of our salvation.
You're right in that Paul was not talking only about works of the Law of Moses. He did also say in vs. 10 created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I often include that and this time I forgot. Paul was speaking of both thease types of works. Absolutely, I don't believe that these works that God had planned an advance for them to do were the works of the law of Moses.
But I had once done an exhaustive search of works in the New Testament, and I wish I had saved it so I could present it later, but I didn't. From my memory of that study many of these included the work of giving to the poor, the work of spreading the gospel, and many others which I can't remember now. None of them included baptism. And in the definition of works, it was never defined as just anything you do.

Quote
My main point in the post to yogi was that baptism is the occasion, but not the cause of salvation. It is based on the three passages referenced above. Salvation is not of, or out of works, but is a gift. God did not save us because of righteous things we have done. God did not save us because of anything we have done. I strongly believe that baptism saves us, and that it is for the remission of sins.
On this we agree. We are not saved from the works of the law of Moses, or from the work of spreading the gospel, or from the work of giving to the poor, Etc. And I also agree that baptism is not the cause for salvation, it is the occasion, elegantly put.  I also heard one other person put it differently, and I think he put it best, that salvation ultimately occurs in the mind of God, because it's his decision. Belief, repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord, baptism are all for the remission of sins/salvation. God Saves when he sees the expected response, but it is God who does the saving. If a person believes that any of these things belief, repentance, confession, baptism does the saving themselves all on their own, and not God, then it is salvation by works as exemplified in Romans 9:32.

Quote
But to say that baptism is essential for salvation, is a whole nuther doctrine, nowhere stated in the Bible. If the act of getting immersed in water is essential for salvation, then the act is at least part of the cause of our salvation. In my mind, that conflicts with the passages referenced above.
If you go through my posts, and I don't expect you to, you can take my word for it, I never say words like must and necessary and have to. I go by what the scripture actually says that baptism is for the remission of sins, that baptism now saves you also, etc., because I don't believe in going beyond what the Bible says. However, neither did God give a menu of options: "if you want to be saved with a baptism is part of it it's fine, and if you want to be saved some other way it's fine too, whatever you like." We do know that if we follow the teachings garlic behind through Jesus Christ and the apostles, that we are assured of salvation. We do not know if we choose our own path to Salvation (e.g. - sinner's prayer, infant baptism), that salvation is assured. Therefore it would be wise, since we have the choice, to follow the teachings on salvation left behind by Jesus and the apostles. Is it possible that God may save another way? I submit Isaiah 6:4-7. God himself chose to atone for Isaiah sins through means other than the normally required animal sacrifice, so it is at least within God's character, if he so chooses. But it would have to be his choice, not ours, just as much as it was God's choice, not Isaiah's, and it was unexpected, Isaiah didn't ask for it. And we have no way of knowing whether God would make such a choice until we get to Judgment day. It would be unwise, therefore, for us to stray from God's word, to choose our own way of getting saved, and then "expect" God to honor it. After all he is God, and we are not.

Quote
Before anyone says baptism is not a work or something we do, but is something done to us, let me suggest that the Judaizers could have made the same argument with Paul about circumcision.
I don't like calling them Judaizers, I think it is an unfair name. I think it's fair that at least some of the Jews accepting the Gentiles would struggle with letting go of the long-held covenant of circumcision. They were considered disciples, and they were at the council at Jerusalem and were allowed to be heard by the assembly. Agreed, and good point, that circumcision is done to a person, it is not something a person does. But it doesn't matter. Paul called physical circumcision at work and a sign, he did not do the same with baptism.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 13:48:55 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #245 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 13:30:41 »

Online RB

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #246 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:11:59 »
Red Baker,
If you're going to make that claim then you accept the burden of coming up with a verse putting baptism and works in the same phrase.
No problem:
Quote from: Luke
Acts 15:1,2~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised baptized after the manner of Moses, after the manner of Alexandar Campbell ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."
Well, the same arguments used by these work mongers are used by you and your friends.

Sir, is this all you have to offer in a rebuke to my post to you? Pitiful indeed, and you believe you are contending for the faith once delivered to the saints? God has better soldiers contending for his truth than your effort to me.
Quote
Red Baker,
If you're going to make that claim then you accept the burden of coming up with a verse putting baptism and works in the same phrase.
Well now, you obviously do not understand what a work by a man consists of. Those work mongers of Acts 15:1,2 could use the same argument to Paul that you used to me. After all, what part does a man have in his own circumcision? Most likely LESS than a person does in water baptism~yet Paul rejected any and ALL works that a person uses his ENERGY in be it ever so little...ANY ACT that he has an ACTIVE part in, is a work of the flesh/commanded by a law...which said...THIS DO and LIVE, refuse and die in your sins!   

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #246 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:11:59 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #247 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 15:36:02 »
Red Baker,
Quote
Acts 15:1,2~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised baptized after the manner of Moses, after the manner of Alexandar Campbell ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."

Well, the same arguments used by these work mongers are used by you and your friends.

Sir, is this all you have to offer in a rebuke to my post to you? Pitiful indeed, and you believe you are contending for the faith once delivered to the saints? God has better soldiers contending for his truth than your effort to me.
Revised slandered version doesn't count.

Yes, it is a decimating, obliterating, annihilating, ending argument against the idea that baptism is a work. (Only against the idea, I still respect you). Since it's not written in the Bible, it's not true. And your response only confirmed that it is not.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 23:03:49 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #247 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 15:36:02 »

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #248 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 19:13:43 »
But its a Red Letter Edition of the Revised Slandered Version.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #248 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 19:13:43 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #249 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 20:22:52 »
Lol.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #249 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 20:22:52 »



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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #250 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 04:43:55 »
Red Baker, Revised slandered version doesn't count.
I agree~yet, I was only making a point in order to get your attention, and of course, you know that to be so. Nevertheless, what Paul had to deal with is the very same beast, just it's going by a different name in our day. If you consider what those men in Acts 15:1,2 were teaching, then it is evident that it is NO DIFFERENT than what you and your friends are saying, if it is different please prove it.

One question to you, "what's the difference in telling some someone they MUST be circumcised BEFORE they can be saved, and telling them they must be baptized in water before they can be saved? Is there a difference between the two statements?"~ Remeber I said:
Quote from: RB Reply #246 on: Yesterday at 14:11:59
Those work mongers of Acts 15:1,2 could use the same argument to Paul that you used to me. After all, what part does a man have in his own circumcision? Most likely LESS than a person does in water baptism~yet Paul rejected any and ALL works that a person uses his ENERGY in be it ever so little...ANY ACT that he has an ACTIVE part in, is a work of the flesh/commanded by a law...which said...THIS DO and LIVE, refuse and die in your sins!   

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #250 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 04:43:55 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #251 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 07:41:48 »
RB,
Quote
I agree~yet, I was only making a point in order to get your attention, and of course, you know that to be so. Nevertheless, what Paul had to deal with is the very same beast, just it's going by a different name in our day. If you consider what those men in Acts 15:1,2 were teaching, then it is evident that it is NO DIFFERENT than what you and your friends are saying, if it is different please prove it.

One question to you, "what's the difference in telling some someone they MUST be circumcised BEFORE they can be saved, and telling them they must be baptized in water before they can be saved? Is there a difference between the two statements?"~ Remeber I said:
The major difference between the two statements is that in their day they had both baptism in water in Jesus's name and physical circumcision, and they made an issue of physical circumcision, and they did not make an issue of baptism in water in Jesus's name, moreover, they made statements linking baptism in water in Jesus's name with forgiveness of sins/salvation. If the statements were misunderstood, they at least have the potential of sounding to many as though the two are connected, and they never made any effort to clarify that they were not. If baptism being a part of getting saved was grievous, then somebody would have said at least a little something regarding that, as it is they left those statements as is. Therefore  today, neither you nor your friends, can make the statements on their behalf. Baptism in water in Jesus's name is not in the same ballpark as physical circumcision, never was-never will be.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 11:31:26 by e.r.m. »

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #252 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 08:36:43 »
RB,The major difference between the two statements is that in their day they had both baptism in water in Jesus's name and physical circumcision, and they made an issue of physical circumcision, and they did not make an issue of baptism in water in Jesus's name, moreover, they made statements leaking baptism in water in Jesus's name with forgiveness of sins and salvation. If the statements were misunderstood, they at least have the potential of sounding too many as though the two were connected, and they never made any effort to clarify that they were not. If baptism being a condition to be saved was Grievous, then somebody would have said at least a little something regarding that, as it is they left those statements as is. There for today, neither you nor your friends, can make the statements on their behalf. Baptism in water in Jesus's name is not in the same ballpark as physical circumcision, never was never will be.
You handled that well. To put it in slightly different words, if a gentile Christian got circumcised in order to be saved, it would be strongly evident that he was depending on keeping the Law of Moses for his salvation. If a Jew or gentile Christian thought baptism in Jesus name was essential for salvation, maybe he is somewhat mistaken in his beliefs, but he is still depending on Jesus for his salvation.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #253 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:32:36 »
Not to mention the fact that the doctrine of circumcision to be saved was man’s thoughts, and baptism related to salvation is clearly NT scripture. Baptism’s involvement in salvation (remission of sin, conveyance of the indwelling Holy spirit, an appeal to God for a clear conscience, putting ON Christ, etc etc.) was not contrived by man against scripture. It was delineated with black ink on brown paper as Kenneth says. Circumcision was required to become Jewish. It was mistakenly assumed by the Judaizers that becoming a Jew was a pre-requisite to salvation. Baptism was a scriptural faith response to the free gift of grace from the very beginnings of the gospel of Christ.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #253 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:32:36 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #254 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:35:09 »
Not to mention the fact that the doctrine of circumcision to be saved was man’s thoughts, and baptism related to salvation is clearly NT scripture. Baptism’s involvement in salvation (remission of sin, conveyance of the indwelling Holy spirit, an appeal to God for a clear conscience, putting ON Christ, etc etc.) was not contrived by man against scripture. It was delineated with black ink on brown paper as Kenneth says. Circumcision was required to become Jewish. It was mistakenly assumed by the Judaizers that becoming a Jew was a pre-requisite to salvation. Baptism was a scriptural faith response to the free gift of grace from the very beginnings of the gospel of Christ.

The idea that baptism...for the remissions and one must believe that baptism is such in order for their baptism to be valid and thus saved is every bit the same as the argument given about circumcision.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #255 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:51:30 »
size=10pt]The idea that baptism...for the remissions and one must believe that baptism is such in order for their baptism to be valid and thus saved is every bit the same as the argument given about circumcision.[/size]
Say What??  Paul made a number of statements similar in tone to "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love "(Gal_5:6 ).   I don't remember Paul making similar statements about baptism.  On the contrary, he made several statements similar to  "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:12-13).

It seems Paul's argument about baptism was nothing at all like his argument about circumcision.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #256 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:54:56 »
Say What??  Paul made a number of statements similar in tone to "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love "(Gal_5:6 ).   I don't remember Paul making similar statements about baptism.  On the contrary, he made several statements similar to  "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:12-13).

It seems Paul's argument about baptism was nothing at all like his argument about circumcision.

Obviously you didnt read what I wrote.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #257 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 10:01:31 »
Obviously you didnt read what I wrote.
Yeah, I did  --  even in the rather poor articulation as supplied.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #258 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 10:02:17 »
Yeah, I did  --  even in the rather poor articulation as supplied.

Poor comprehension on your part.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #259 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 10:03:38 »
Poor comprehension on your part.
could be  -- but doesn't make your articulation any better.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #260 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 10:47:39 »
Norton,
Agreed.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #261 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 11:37:21 »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 11:56:35 by e.r.m. »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #262 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 11:48:56 »
Texas Conservative,If any understanding at the time of why a person got baptized would do, then with those rebaptized in Acts 19 in the first few verses, why wouldn't there new understanding apply retroactively to their previous baptism?

Poor example.  They were not baptized in the name of Christ.  Is the power of baptism in Christ or in your understanding?

If I was baptized in the name of Christ but did not have the traditional CofC understanding, does my lack of understanding negate the work of Christ in baptism?

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #263 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:03:08 »
Texas Conservative,
I was rethinking my post, and hence deleted it. But oh well. In this day and age a person is either baptized according to scripture, or according to a lie taught to them. If a person gets baptized as a public declaration to demonstrate to the world their faith and that they have already been saved or as an already saved person's first act of obedience, whether they've been naively taught, or whether they have seen the scriptures and decidedly rejected them, is that following Jesus and the apostles teachings?
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

I have a hard time believing that anyone in the Bible baptized in Jesus's name did not know the purpose of which they were getting baptized.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:31:45 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #264 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:11:27 »
4WD,
I agree at least that with the abundance of teachings they gave on both physical circumcision and baptism in water in Jesus's name, they treated the two very differently.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #265 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 13:07:13 »
To put it in slightly different words, if a gentile Christian got circumcised in order to be saved, it would be strongly evident that he was depending on keeping the Law of Moses for his salvation.
My believer friend, your point cannot be a validity one~here is the reason why: please follow carefully, which I'm convinced you will...... Yes, there is an strong evidence that he would be thinking that he "MUST OBEY" before he can be born again, and with that thinking comes a continuously obeying this commandment, and that commandment BEFORE he can please God and BE ACCEPTED by him, a continuous life of living in fear of HAVE I DONE ENOUGH to finally get to heaven. This puts one under a law of terror of never knowing if my righteous deeds are enough for me to inherit eternal life. It just does not stop at circumcision with these people, it's lifelong of not having peace of knowing I'm a child of God because they are trusting in THEIR obedience and NOT in Jesus' perfect obedience to God's law for them.
Quote from: Norton Reply #252 on: Today at 08:36:43
If a Jew or gentile Christian thought baptism in Jesus name was essential for salvation, maybe he is somewhat mistaken in his beliefs, but he is still depending on Jesus for his salvation.
I'm going into the doctor's office, but I will come back and consider these words of yours.....RB
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 15:41:05 by RB »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #266 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 14:51:16 »
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit"
. (Hebrews 6:1-3)

I find these verses interesting. I am guilty myself of getting into endless arguments about Baptism, soul sleep, Gifts of the Spirit, and Hell (see references to these "arguments" in the verses
above).

It's almost like the writer is saying "let's get beyond these endless arguments and actually grow in Christ".  It's amazing to see how many threads are dedicated to arguing
about baptism, or hell, or resurrections, or "laying on of hands" (gifts of the Spirit).  But how many threads are dedicated to Jesus Christ Himself----who He was, His character,
His Greatness, etc.

Again, I am guilty of falling into these "arguments".  But I do sincerely want to grow in Grace also. Help us to learn more about YOU Lord.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #267 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 14:57:38 »
fish153,
Quote
But how many threads are dedicated to Jesus Christ Himself----who He was, His character,
His Greatness, etc.
Good point.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #268 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 18:17:31 »
I am still being WATCHED so this might be off limits!

Baptism is the Holy Spirit Prophesied way to be PURIFIED because the Animal Slaughter was not commanded but was imposed on those who had "fired" God and demanded a human king.    Jesus said that his baptism JUSTIFIED God after which He was owned as Gods Son.  God "sanctified Jesus and sent Him into the world."

Jesus said that Baptism SAVES because believeth or PISTIS includes "TO COMPLY."
Paul said that we obey the example of Jesus SO THAT we can serve God.
Hebrews is saying that the baptismS or washingS of the old priesthood could not give us A good conscience but Jesus CAN give us a good conscience.


Quote
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit". (Hebrews 6:1-3)

Heb. 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb. 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest;
        but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

AS THE ANTITHESIS OF THE LEVITICAL PRIESTS:

Heb. 5:6 As he saith also in another place,
       Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh,
        when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears
        unto him that was able to save him from death,
        and was HEARD in that he feared;
Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Heb. 5:9 And being MADE PERFECT,
        he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;
Heb. 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb. 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, [MESSIAH]
         let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation
         of repentance from DEAD WORKS,  [The Law]
         and of faith toward God,
Heb. 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptismS, and of laying on of hands,
        and of resurrection of the dead,

We cannot stop speaking about the teachings of and about Christ

WASHINGS are

g909. baptismos, bap-tis-mos´; from 907; ablution (ceremonial or Christian): — baptism, washing.

The Figure or TYPE which we are to lay aside are:

Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present,
        in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
        that could not make him that did the service PERFECT,
        as pertaining to the CONSCIENCE;
Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks,
       and divers washingsS, and carnal ordinances,
       IMPOSED OPON them until the time of reformation.
Heb. 9:11 BUT Christ BEING COME an high priest of GOOD things to come,
        by a GREATER and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

CHRISTIAN ANTITHESIS TO DIVERS WASHINGS OR BAPTISMS

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean,
        SANCTIFIED to the PURIFYING of the FLESH:

The washingS were commanded and WITHOUT the FLESH being PURIFIED the penalty was death.

THEIR FLESH:

Sanctifying  h37.  hagiazo, hag-ee-ad´-zo; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (MENTALLY) to venerate: — hallow, be holy, sanctify.

It is not the purifying of the FLESH but the PURIFYING or making OUR spirit holy without which one cannot approach God.

Heb. 9:14 How much MORE shall the blood of Christ,
        who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
        PURGE your CONSCIENCE from dead works TO SERVE the living God?

The Gift in Acts 2:38  g40.   hagios, hag´-ee-os; from a‚goß hagos (an awful thing) (compare 53, 2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated): — (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

1 Peter 3:21 BAPTISM DOTH ALSO SAVE US by a REQUEST for that good CONSCIENCE which the Jewish WASHINGS could not do.  The work of Jesus commands that we have the RIGHT to be sanctified and sent as He set the example even though without sin.

Ceremonial washing under Judaism or under christianity may just get you wet unless you believe that the ARCHE or beginning of the gospel is to baptize believers SO THAT THEN them teach them what Jesus commanded to be taught.


Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #269 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 18:20:54 »
Kenneth Sublett,
It might be easier on the eyes if you were to list the reference scriptures as one continuous paragraph instead of breaking it up the way you do.
Like
Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service PERFECT,  as pertaining to the CONSCIENCE; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washingsS, and carnal ordinances, IMPOSED OPON them until the time of reformation.offered. 11 BUT Christ BEING COME an high priest of GOOD things to come, by a GREATER and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

CHRISTIAN ANTITHESIS TO DIVERS WASHINGS OR BAPTISMS

Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, SANCTIFIED to the PURIFYING of the FLESH:


Just a suggestion.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 18:26:19 by e.r.m. »

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #270 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 18:29:00 »
My believer friend, your point cannot be a validity one~here is the reason why: please follow carefully, which I'm convinced you will...... Yes, there is an strong evidence that he would be thinking that he "MUST OBEY" before he can be born again, and with that thinking comes a continuously obeying this commandment, and that commandment BEFORE he can please God and BE ACCEPTED by him, a continuous life of living in fear of HAVE I DONE ENOUGH to finally get to heaven. This puts one under a law of terror of never knowing if my righteous deeds are enough for me to inherit eternal life. It just does not stop at circumcision with these people, it's lifelong of not having peace of knowing I'm a child of God because they are trusting in THEIR obedience and NOT in Jesus' perfect obedience to God's law for them. I'm going into the doctor's office, but I will come back and consider these words of yours.....RB
Quote
Yes, you are describing a very conscientious person, most of the time, trained in a legalistic religion. Christ came to help quiet the conscience, but we still have some of that in every church. Martin Luther is the most famous example of it. I John 3: 16-20 briefly addresses the problem. I have never personally spoken with someone about that problem, who had the problem. I have heard of people in the CofC who got baptized again and again, trying to find peace, I suppose thinking that was the only way for their sins to be forgiven. I would think their guilt arose from some moral failure, rather than a teaching on baptism. But, I would admit that they were probably trained in a very legalistic environment. A legalistic understanding of baptism was just one example of their training.

The terror of condemnation because of a legalistic view of baptism is not a big problem in the CofC, as far as I can tell. To be embarrassingly candid, I think it is rather the opposite. It is not nearly so much a problem today as it was, say thirty years ago, but the problem is a self righteous attitude, among many, that we have the only doctrine and practice of baptism endorsed by the Bible and accepted by God.

Now, be candid with me. Do you have that attitude about some things?


« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:10:32 by Norton »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #271 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:09:36 »
Norton, After reading more and more of your post I come to realize that we are in more agreement than I realized. It appears that I have been reading your thoughts wrong but with careful consideration I think I am following what you are saying better and can agree with what you are saying.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #272 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 20:05:48 »
Same here.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #273 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 20:11:17 »
Quote
I have never personally spoken with someone about that problem, who had the problem. I have heard of people in the CofC who got baptized again and again, trying to find peace, I suppose thinking that was the only way for their sins to be forgiven. I would think their guilt arose from some moral failure, rather than a teaching on baptism. But, I would admit that they were probably trained in a very legalistic environment. A legalistic understanding of baptism was just one example of their training.

I have been an active listener for over 80 years and have learned that "they say" is always false.
Simple Simon is taught that repenting AND being baptized for the remission of sins and receiving A holy spirit is the condition for Jesus adding DISCIPLES or STUDENTS to His Ekklesia-Synagogue.  Even repenting is emphasized as simply deciding to turn TOWARD Jesus in turning away from the world and NOT THE method for ceasing to be a drunk. 

You guys mocked or ignored my Hebrews (In that black book) WHICH PROVES that if you recognize Jesus as your HIGH PRIEST the writer shows you HOW to be sanctified or receive A holy spirit Sounds like Muddy Stream Media to me.  There is no LEGALISTIC way to SANCTIFY our spirit and make it fit to dwell in a SPIRIT WORLD.
 
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them,
         saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore,
        and teach all nations,
        BAPTIZING them in the name [singular]
        of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Once you have made a disciple and added to His Church as a School of the Word then you are competent for

Matt. 28:20 TEACHING them to OBSERVE
       all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
       and, lo, I am with you alway,
       even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Paul in 2 Corinthians 3 says that until you Turn, are Converted or are BAPTIZED you cannot READ the text nor HEAR it if you ever attend a gathering where the command is to PREACH the WORD (regulative principle) by READING the Word in a once each week REST period where there are no COUNTERS IF SHEKALS (1 Cor 13)

Unless the person didn't understand what they were doing when Baptized no literate preacher would command them to be BAPTIZED AGAIN which would repudiate the promise that in baptism one REQUESTS A good conscience or A holy spirit.  Once you have obeyed in the WASHING (baptism) OF REGENERATION you are added to the Church of Christ AND:

Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
      which are written in heaven,
      and to God the Judge of all,
      and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Any person who believes that they have sinned are taught to confess that wrong to the one they have offended.

No one in the PRE POST MODERN or "progressive" church has not been taught as a baptized Simon who has offended. is taught;

Acts 8:22 REPENT therefore of this thy wickedness, and PRAY God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Baptism is EXCLUSIVELY following the prophecy, example and command of Jesus to be SANCTIFIED and able to function as their own Priest of God--thank you preachers very kindly.

I baptized by dearly departed eldest daughter because she let herself be SORCERIZED by the purpose driven high of church camp.

I doubt that anyone who has ever heard anything about a legalistic baptism fetish.

Legalism is trying to do an END RUN around Jesus simple PATTERN for enjoying FREE GRACE by being free from laded burdens and burden laders.  Legalism must be one of the most graceless raca terms.  Especially when used against people who are the most minimilists as schools of the Word meaning REST.

The literate Greek world defined legalism required for CRAFTSMEN jobs such as rhetoric, singing, playing, acting or anything requiring hard work to learn, practice, rehearse, perform and get judged for skill level.

I would be careful calling the example and command of Jesus legalism.





« Last Edit: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 20:30:06 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #274 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 02:04:43 »
Texas Conservative seems to have been objecting to the Austin McGary teaching or heresy or however you want to call it, where one's baptism is invalid if he thinks he was already saved before he was baptized. I have always considered it a sectarian teaching. It would be akin to saying someone's marriage was invalid if he mistakenly thought he was married, before the ceremony, when he gave her the engagement ring. If his intent was to get married it doesn't make much difference when he thought he was married.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #275 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 04:11:08 »
Yes, you are describing a very conscientious person, most of the time, trained in a legalistic religion.
I would like to finish the second half of my post that I started yesterday but was held up in the doctor's office way too long, but will do so after I answer your post to back to me on the first half.
Quote from: Norton Reply #270 on: Yesterday at 18:29:00
Yes, you are describing a very conscientious person, most of the time, trained in a legalistic religion.
A very conscientious person I would agree, and also would agree trained in a legalistic religion. A legalistic religion is not easily defined, because of the fact that many godly, sincere, zealous,  true believers are the very ones suspectable of falling into this trap~while Satan DOES have many of his followers on BOTH side of the fence as well, a true legalist, and overly liberal professors using the name of Christ and his grace to justify their sinful lifestyle.  So, I have learned over the years, to preach the word faithfully and the word generally will have its spiritual, good and holy effect on sincere believers and rid them of Phariseeism to a great degree, I'm know not completely will rid them while living in a body of sin and death~entire practical sanctification is not taught in the scriptures...legal sanctification is, but not practical.
Quote from: Norton Reply #270 on: Yesterday at 18:29:00
Christ came to help quiet the conscience, but we still have some of that in every church.
Agreed
Quote from: Jesus
Matthew 11:28-29~"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
This sweet invitation is for believers, not sinners who know nothing of the spiritual battle of being at unrest in one's spirit of knowing if their labor is acceptable in God's sight.
Quote from: Norton Reply #270 on: Yesterday at 18:29:00
Martin Luther is the most famous example of it.
Yes, until he found the doctrine of "FREE" justification through the redemption work of Jesus Christ, then did he consider his own works as nothing more than a pile of worthless dung. Nevertheless, the great Martin Luther still cling to enough of Catholicism to never come to a knowledge of the truth of justification in its purity~that he labored so much to defend but then we must consider where he came from to where he ended up~he still proved to be one of the greatest servants of God since the apostles far above all of us.
Quote from: Norton Reply #270 on: Yesterday at 18:29:00
I have never personally spoken with someone about that problem, who had the problem. I have heard of people in the CofC who got baptized again and again, trying to find peace, I suppose thinking that was the only way for their sins to be forgiven. I would think their guilt arose from some moral failure, rather than a teaching on baptism.
That's sad, and I truly mean that. Brother, charity teaches us both to believe ALL THINGS~so, was it a moral issue, I would think no because WE ALL have shortcomings, the very best of God's children do, so I would think it has more to do with baptism being the means of having our sins leagally forgiven. If I was in a religion (and the coc is just that, just like we all are whether at home or some outward public place of worship we all embrace a religion) that taught MY baptism in water was the very means of having my sins legally forgiven, then IF I have committed a (let say a BIG sin, because most people do not consider a failure to live perfectly as Christ lived in thought and deeds a sin, they only consider BIG sins a sin) terrible sin, then in order to be forgiven as my church teaches, then I should be rebaptized again in order to be consistent with our beliefs. It must be either, or, you cannot have it both ways and be correct. Being inconsistency in our teachings/practices is the hallmark of error.
Quote from: Norton  Reply #270 on: Yesterday at 18:29:00
The terror of condemnation because of a legalistic view of baptism is not a big problem in the CofC, as far as I can tell. To be embarrassingly candid, I think it is rather the opposite. It is not nearly so much a problem today as it was, say thirty years ago, but the problem is a self righteous attitude, among many, that we have the only doctrine and practice of baptism endorsed by the Bible and accepted by God.
Well, they should not be riding their high horse to proudly, because their church and their doctrine is very new to the church of God/Christ. You would have to be a great broad jumper to go from 1812 back to the apostle and the church at Jerusalem. Martin Luther did not have to contend with what is known today as the Chruch of Christ, he did with Catholicism/EOC where baptism and forgiveness of sin are connected and had its strong beginning.

Pride is always connected with false doctrine. Truth humbles a person and causes him to labor to be meek and lowly in spirit toward all men with a bold spirit.
Quote from: Norton #270 on: Yesterday at 18:29:00
Now, be candid with me. Do you have that attitude about some things?
Brother, MUCH MORE in my younger days when my knowledge was much less, pride had a stronghold over me~even now it STILLS works in my members, to say that it does not would be a lie. The last time I looked into the mirror the same OLD MAN Adam was looking back at me.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 06:22:45 by RB »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #276 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 04:32:59 »
 
Quote from: Norton Reply #252 on: Yesterday at 08:36:43
If a Jew or gentile Christian thought baptism in Jesus name was essential for salvation, maybe he is somewhat mistaken in his beliefs, but he is still depending on Jesus for his salvation.
That's not true. One cannot add Jesus' obedience along with his/her's obedience for their salvation from sin and condemnation. That's what the coc does along with other groups as well. "ONCE" a person adds man's work into salvation from sin and condemnation he at that very point has corrupted the gospel of Jesus Christ, that teaches that a man is justified by the faith, obedience, and righteousness of ONE PERSON. Be whatever a work that a religion places on man to DO, before he can consider himself born again, that system is another gospel. Galatians 2:16- Galatians 5:4  Paul goes at length proving this very point that is so critical in order to protect the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the very gospel taught by Paul. Why did Paul rebuke, Peter? and in what way was Peter's actions corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ? Maybe we should consider these things in depth to get the big picture of what is the true gospel and what is another gospel.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 06:19:20 by RB »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #277 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 06:46:51 »
Being inconsistency in our teachings/practices is the hallmark of error.
Inconsistency certainly does signal the likelihood of error.  But I would not say that it is the hallmark of error.  That would imply, to some degree at least, that consistency would be the hallmark of truth.  And that definitely is not the case.  The Catholic Church  or the Eastern Orthodox, by the very nature of those organizations, are probably among the more consistent theologies.  Yet they are so wrong in so much.  Your own theology, or at least that of the Reformed Theology, is also probably among the more consistent theologies, but there again they are so very, very wrong in so much. Finally, I can't really prove it, but I suspect that Satan himself is extremely consistent, at least in his attacks upon the saints individually.


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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #278 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 07:37:50 »

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them,
         saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore,
        and teach all nations,
        BAPTIZING them in the name [singular]
        of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Once you have made a disciple and added to His Church as a School of the Word then you are competent for

Matt. 28:20 TEACHING them to OBSERVE
       all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
       and, lo, I am with you alway,
       even unto the end of the world. Amen.
That is the typical misread of Matthew 28:19-20.

I would first note that here, one more time, we see that the KJV gets it confused if not wrong.  It is not "teach" all nations as the KJV translates it.  The verb is "to disciple"  or "to make disciple". 

The words "baptizing" and "teaching" are participial modifiers to the verb "make".  The command there is to make disciples of all nations.  That is to make disciples of not only the Jew, but the gentile as well.  That would have been enough right there for what Jesus was commanding them to do.  But He didn't stop there, He described how it was that they should accomplish that task.   "Baptizing" and "teaching" are not additional commands; rather  "baptizing" and "teaching" describe how they are to make disciples.  It is through "baptizing" and "teaching" that disciples are made.  That seems obvious enough with teaching. We are saved by grace through faith.  Faith comes from hearing.  Hearing comes from preaching and teaching.  But the grammatical construction of Matthew 28:19-20 demands that "baptizing" and "teaching" are both to be treated the same, that is, both describe how one is to go about making disciples.  That grammatical construction, by the way, is the same for both Greek and English.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 07:40:32 by 4WD »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #279 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 08:50:10 »
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
        baptizing them in the name of the Father,
        and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Sorry about that: I don't have a first century grammar.

19] euntes ergo docete omnes gentes baptizantes eos in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti

Discipling is the Greek:

g3100. matheteuo, math-ayt-yoo´-o; from 3101;
       intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar: —
       be disciple, instruct, teach.
       to learn (in any way): — learn, understand.

And they have to BELIEVE the gospel and can confess that "Jesus is the Christ the SON of the Living god. Believe and Obey are not the same:

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all OBEYED the GOSPEL.
        For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath BELIEVED our report?

Isaiah by the Spirit OF Christ preached the gospel in Isaiah 53.

The eunuch has been discipled or TAUGHT and has the option of ACCEPTING that teaching:

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias,
        and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
        And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Acts 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this,
        He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
        and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:
        and who shall declare his generation?
        for his life is taken from the earth.
Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said,
        I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth,
        and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water:
        and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
        And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still:
        and they went down both into the water,
        both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

BAPTIZED IS:
g907.  baptizo, bap-tid´-zo; from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: — Baptist, baptize, wash.

The eunuch does not grasp the gospel spelled out by Isaiah including baptizing
He that is TAUGHT
And Believes
Changes direction
Asks to be baptized
And is baptized for the remission of sins:
Teaching or Discipling does not remit sins.
Now, he is equipped to become a student for the rest of his life.
I believe that the eunuch can now read BLACK text on BROWN paper (2 Cor.3) when he READS it or when it is PREACHED by being READ in the assembly once a week.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up OUT of the water,
        the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip,
        that the eunuch saw him no more:
        and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus:
        and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 08:56:59 by Kenneth Sublett »

 

     
anything