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Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #280 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 08:58:32 »
Well now, you obviously do not understand what a work by a man consists of.
That is actually a very funny statement.  Because though it might be that he does not understand what a work by a man consists of, clearly you do not understand what Paul was talking about when he said, "not by works".
Quote from: RB
Those work mongers of Acts 15:1,2 could use the same argument to Paul that you used to me. After all, what part does a man have in his own circumcision? Most likely LESS than a person does in water baptism~yet Paul rejected any and ALL works that a person uses his ENERGY in be it ever so little...ANY ACT that he has an ACTIVE part in, is a work of the flesh/commanded by a law...which said...THIS DO and LIVE, refuse and die in your sins!   
There is nothing in Acts 15:1-2 about baptism.  The only thing discussed there is whether or not one must be circumcised as Jew. There is nothing there whatsoever about not being baptized. There is nothing there whatsoever about not doing something.  When Paul, or others, spoke of "not by works", it didn't mean that there is no need or requirement to do something.  Clearly circumcision is not required, but that doesn't say there isn't something else that might be required.

The first question that one must ask is, "Why not by works?"  After all, God went to a lot of trouble to give the Jews His rules and regulations about how they were to live.  Those very rules and regulations not only specified what it was that they were to do, but not doing them was the very definition of sin. So would we expect that should anyone actually follow God's rules and regulations as He laid them down and therefore not sin, that God would nevertheless condemn that person to eternal damnation?  Only if you are a Calvinist-type.  The whole point here is not that the law could not save.  The failure is not in the law.  Paul said,  "So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means!"(Rom 7:12-13)! So what then is the problem?  Paul goes on to say, "it was sin" (v,13) He said, "It was sin, producing death in me through what is good..."(v.13) In other words, sin brought death to him; and had he not sinned there would have been no death produced in him.

And that is the key here.  When Paul says, "Not by works", he is not saying that works can't save.  What he is saying is that works can save provided there is no sin.  But that means perfect works. James clarified that when he said, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it" (Jas_2:10).

So the "Not by Works" is not a weakness in works, it is a weakness in man.  Paul confirmed that when he said,
 "so death spread to all men because all sinned--" (Rom 5:12)   Paul's words then are, effectively, Keep the law perfectly and live; commit even one sin, no matter how serious, and die.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with any conditions that God can require upon being saved, and staying saved for that matter.  If God says believe and be baptized to be saved, that does not contradict His statement of "Not by Works" God is free to require whatever he will.  It is only the Calvinist-type who says, "No, I won't let God do that.  God can't make me jump through hoops to be saved".  Such foolishness. 

Here is the truth.  God says, "Either keep the law perfectly and live or do this instead and live." Given that none of us can keep the law perfectly, then what is the "instead"? That is not a tough question.  Peter laid it out in the first gospel sermon, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...."(Acts 2:38) The whole of the NT expands on that theme, but does not change it.

And by everything that God has said in his word, receiving the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit is receiving eternal life, i.e., salvation.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 09:01:45 by 4WD »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #280 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 08:58:32 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #281 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 09:09:37 »
Sorry about that: I don't have a first century grammar.
Apparently you don't have modern English grammar either.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #281 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 09:09:37 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #282 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 09:28:45 »
Martin Luther preached SOLA FIDE.  Since Faith comes by hearing the WORD of God, Sola Fida rests on Sola Scriptura.  Since, Scripture teaches BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, Sola Fide rests on SOLA BAPTISM because Jesus put HIS power in an external INSTRUMENTAL MEANS. Luther puts more power in the WATER than churches of Christ put the power in Obedience.

John Calvin's infant sprinkling was "in the room of circumcision" and was not effective for the remission of personal sins as a believer.  Alexander Campbell, understanding Calvin, said of Calvin's paper that he could be a CAMPBELLITE.

http://www.piney.com/Martin.Luther.Baptism.and.the.New.Birth.html

22. It is relative to the power and energy wrought by the Holy Spirit that John speaks,
        Indicating the source and means of the power of this witness,
        when he says of Christ, "This is he that came by water and blood," etc.

In this sentence is included all we possess in the kingdom of Christ,
        and here is extolled the efficacy of our beloved baptism and the blood or sufferings of Christ.
        Here John unites all the elements in one bundle, so to speak, making a triune witness.
        They bear joint witness to our faith and confirm it--these three: the water, the blood and the Spirit.

BAPTISM BY WATER AND BLOOD.

23. Christ comes, first, "by water"; that is, by holy baptism.
        He employs baptism as an outward sign of his work in the new birth of man and in man's sanctification.

Note: a sign or seal must be something one can witness. We know that water does not save but BAPTISM SAVES because it is the only visible sign that one has ASKED for A holy spirit.

This water by which Christ comes cannot be A MERE EMPTY SIGN;
        or he comes not merely to cleanse or bathe the body with water,
        but to purify the whole man from all pollution and blemishes inherent in him from Adam.

Christ has instituted a cleansing wholly UNLIKE the Mosaic ablutions under the Old Testament dispensation. Moses came with various laws relating to washings and purifications, but they were only cleansings of the body or of the flesh and had daily to be repeated.

Now, since these [WASHINGS] ceremonials contributed nothing to man's purification in God's sight--a thing to be effected by nothing short of a new birth--Christ came with a new order of cleansing, namely, baptism,

    which is not a mere external ablution from physical impurities,
    but a washing effective in man's purification from the inward pollution
    of his old sinful birth and from an evil conscience,

    and bringing remission of sin and a good conscience [243] toward God, as Peter says. I Pet 3, 21.  Paul, also (Tit 3, 5), calls baptism the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

24. Christ first instituted baptism through John the Baptist. To distinguish it from the Mosaic baptism, the old Jewish rite of washings,


Note: Luther, like Calvin seems to speak of adult baptism..

ALSO: Christ styles it "a baptism unto repentance and the remission of sins."
He designs that therein MAN shall perceive his inner impurities and know them to be, in God's sight, beyond the power of outward Mosaic ablutions to reach;

shall know also that purification of the conscience and remission of sins must be sought and obtained through the power of Christ the Lord, WHO INSTITUTED BAPTISM . none but Christ, the Son of God, and that through his own death.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #282 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 09:28:45 »

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #283 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 11:12:12 »
RB
I hope you got a good report from your doctor. I read your replies to me and you make some good points. Let me say that someone being baptized multiple times is rare in the CofC. Any teacher who advocated such a thing would most likely be removed from any teaching position he held, even in the most legalistic of our congregations.

 I do see your point about a doctrine on baptism bringing about terror in the mind of a person. If a person was taught that they must "do" something before their sin was forgiven, it would be hard for them to rest in the grace of the Lord. Years ago it was taught in CofC that there were two "laws of pardon". Baptism for sins committed before conversion. The second law for sins committed after conversion, was to repent and pray. Some taught that no sin committed after conversion was forgiven unless one prayed for forgiveness for each and every sin. I remember my mother commenting in Sunday School class that that doctrine smacks of Catholicism, and I agreed with her.

On this forum I have been preaching that baptism must not be absolutely essential for salvation because if it is essential, then it is part of the cause of salvation.  Paul said several times that what we do is not the cause of our salvation. That is my reasoning, and it is subject to being wrong, but I think maybe we are on common ground in that one point. So let me pose this question to you.

Even though getting baptized is not the cause of one's salvation, is it Biblically possible that, even if one believes in Christ, that scornfully rejecting baptism could be a cause of one's condemnation? That is not directed at anyone in particular. It has been a question on my mind for some time.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #283 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 11:12:12 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #284 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 15:46:37 »
Rom. 10:15 And how shall they preach,
        except they be sent? as it is written,
        How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace,
        and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all OBEYED the GOSPEL.
        For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath BELIEVED our report?

This is a parallelism OBEYING is included in the word BELIEVED or TRUST.

Those who preach FAITH ONLY and refuse to breath too deeply ignore that the GOSPEL to be effective must be OBEYED.

Pause and Define the word OBEY.

        g5219.  hupakouo, hoop-ak-oo´-o; from 5259 and 191; to hear under (as a subordinate),
        i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority: —
        hearken, be obedient to, obey.


Paul quotes from Isaiah 53:1.   .

A Church of Christ is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles. The Prophets taught the certified Prophets and outlawed private interpretation or further expounding.

        1Pet. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things,
                which are now reported unto you by them
                that have preached the gospel unto you with [from Isaiah]
                the Holy Ghost [In the Word] sent down from heaven;
                which things the angels desire to look into.

Paul is quoting what the eunuch was reading but could not understand Isaiah 53

Is. 53:1 Who hath BELIEVED our report?
       and to whom is the ARM [Messiah] of the Lord revealed?

Isaiah 3 then preaches the gospel which the eunuch heard and WANTED TO BE BAPTIZED.

     Believed is h539 Aman to render or be faithful, TO GO TO THE RIGHT.

     Is. 30:21  And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
            “This is the WAY, WALK in it,”
            when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.


    h541.  aman, aw-man´; denominative from 3225; to take the right hand road:—
     turn to the right. See 539.


The Assembly of Christ is the WAY that is called a SECT: it is a narrow road and you MUST pick up your feet and walk.

If you refuse to OBEY:

2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
        and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Believeth Not is the Greek APISTOS which says I WILL NOT OBEY.

1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that JUDGEMENT
       must begin at the house of God:
       and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them
       That OBEY NOT the gospel of God?

The COMMAND is to be BAPTIZED before you can be added to the HOUSE OF GOD which is the Church of God

Faith is believing that WATER which we understand to cleanse the FLESH can be used to cleanse the SPIRIT as the natural antithesis.  Isaiah 55 tells us not to BUY the free water of the Word which, with WIND, are images of the SPIRIT or BREATH of God.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #284 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 15:46:37 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #285 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 16:16:14 »
RB,
I hope as well that the outcome of your doctor visit went well.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #285 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 16:16:14 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #286 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 18:55:52 »
Through my years as a believer I have studied many "cults" and aberrant groups.  Several years ago I came in contact with a member of "THE TRUE JESUS CHURCH". They
are a church that has it's roots in China.   They have some very strict doctrines.  Here is their belief about Baptism:

4. Water Baptism is the Sacrament for the remission of sins and for regeneration. The baptist must be one who has received the Holy Spirit. The baptism must be administered in the following mode: (Mt 3:16;  Acts 2:38; Jn 20:21-23)

•         In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 19:5; 8:16; 22:16)
•         With the head of the baptised bowed and facing downward (Rom 6:5, 8; 19:30)
•         Complete immersion of the baptised (in 3.23;Acts 8:38)
•         In such natural living water as sea, river, or spring (Zech 13: 1; Mt 3: 13; Acts 8:38)


This member told me that if one is not baptized in this mode their salvation will not be valid.  I joked with this member (who did not appreciate it at all) about the fourth
requirement, because I had been baptized in a backyard pool.  I said that one day I would be in hell and when asked by others why I was there I would shout "It's because
of the Chlorine!!!"


I just share this because it truly is an example of how a group of people can be carried away with rituals, and how much power they give to them.  I thank the Lord that
He is a God of Grace.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 18:58:13 by fish153 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #287 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:02:22 »
*******QUESTION******

First a statement to lead up to the question.

WE have been talking about whether baptism is essential for salvation.  I understand that it is not the baptism per say that does the saving that is defiantly only through Jesus that salvation is granted. The problem I have is even though it is in Jesus I can't feel safe saying that Jesus grants salvation with out baptism.

My reasoning is because scripture clearly teaches that baptism is for the remission of sin and one is instructed to " Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " so my reasoning is if this is true words then who am I to say that sins can be remitted with out baptism in Christ name? Do I really want to go on record and say that one can be save apart from being baptized in Christ name? That would be to me like saying yes I see where Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved but I am confident that is not what he meant so it will be okay or me to skip the water and be content with my faith alone.

I hear all the arguments that say it is only mentioned very few times if more than once only but I can't buy into that because I see many scriptures which backs up Acts 2:38 as being written just as it was intended.

Romans 6 can not get any more clear as to what God is doing in baptism in Christ name it clearly teaches that it is there where God transforms us from dead in sin to newly alive in the spirit.

That is not the only scripture that backs up Acts 2:38 we read of Paul's conversion in Acts 22:16 where he said that it was in the baptism in Christ name that his sins was washed away Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Paul even makes it clear that it was in baptism that we put on Christ (made one with Christ) Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Just a side note here notice in Paul's letter to the Galatians He connects being " children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" it was through baptism in Christ name the caused this adoption.

Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
26  For ye are all the Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. .
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

WE are children of God by faith because we were baptized into Christ

Now if that was not enough of Paul teaching what baptism in Christ name accomplishes see what he told the Colossians

Colossians 2:11-13 (KJV)
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here he echos Romans 6 stating that is is in the baptism in Christ name that God remits sin by transforming you from dead in sin to alive in Christ.

Paul does not stop there in making it known that baptism in Christ name as Peter first preached in Acts 2:38 is pretty important. See Acts 19:1-5

Acts 19:1-5 (KJV)
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul makes it clear here that only in the baptism in Christ name does one get the indwelling spirit.

If all that does not say baptism is very important in not essential then my bible is not making itself clear as to just what the baptism in Christ name is all about. I see many scripture backing up the one verse that says baptism is for the remission of sin and receiving of the indwelling spirit. that is the only way I see God telling how one is to receive the remission of sin and to receive the spirit. Sure it may not be said fifty five times but it is addressed in many scriptures backing up each other.

So my question is if baptism is not  essential (I know that it is not the water but what God is doing but it is where God said it will take place) then how do teach one is to receive remission of sin and the indwelling spirit?






Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #288 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:08:58 »
One more clarification, Yes I understand everyone's hypothetical questions as what if but that is not addressed in the word and yes I am sure God will handle all such questions justly but as for studying what is recorded I feel that we have ample record of what is expected of us and we should follow what was recorded and let God handle  hypothetical questions.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #288 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:08:58 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #289 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:15:52 »
Through my years as a believer I have studied many "cults" and aberrant groups.  Several years ago I came in contact with a member of "THE TRUE JESUS CHURCH". They
are a church that has it's roots in China.   They have some very strict doctrines.  Here is their belief about Baptism:

4. Water Baptism is the Sacrament for the remission of sins and for regeneration. The baptist must be one who has received the Holy Spirit. The baptism must be administered in the following mode: (Mt 3:16;  Acts 2:38; Jn 20:21-23)

•         In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 19:5; 8:16; 22:16)
•         With the head of the baptised bowed and facing downward (Rom 6:5, 8; 19:30)
•         Complete immersion of the baptised (in 3.23;Acts 8:38)
•         In such natural living water as sea, river, or spring (Zech 13: 1; Mt 3: 13; Acts 8:38)


This member told me that if one is not baptized in this mode their salvation will not be valid.  I joked with this member (who did not appreciate it at all) about the fourth
requirement, because I had been baptized in a backyard pool.  I said that one day I would be in hell and when asked by others why I was there I would shout "It's because
of the Chlorine!!!"


I just share this because it truly is an example of how a group of people can be carried away with rituals, and how much power they give to them.  I thank the Lord that
He is a God of Grace.

The example in the NT was a natural body of water.  It stands to reason that all who did not get baptized in living water are headed for the gaping maw.

Good thing I was baptized in a lake.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #290 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:49:14 »
John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim,
        because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

At one time the Jordan river had meandered further into Jordan at a place where there was a spring and a large pool. You can find it on Google Earth and see that the river has silted up so that the spring is not as close to the river.  However, these people knew more about sanitary engineering than our country 50 years ago and it would never be polluted.

Itenerary Egeria c 381-384
Then I remembered that according to the Bible it was near Salim that holy John baptized at Aenon. (John 3:23) So I asked if it was far away. "There it is", said the holy presbyter, "two hundred yards away. If you like we can walk over there. It is from that spring that the village has this excellent supply of clean water you see." Thanking him I asked him to take us, and we set off.

He led us along a well-kept valley to a very good clean spring of water which flowed in a single stream. There was a kind of pool in front of the spring at which it appears holy John Baptist administered baptism. "This garden", said the holy presbyter, " is still known in Greek as Cepos tu Agiou Ioanni, or in your language, Latin, "St. John's Garden". "A great many brothers, holy monks from different parts, travel here to wash at this place. So once more we had a prayer and a reading at the spring as we did in the other places. We said a suitable psalm, and did everything which was usual when arriving at a holy place.

The holy presbyter also told us that nowadays at Easter the candidates who are to be baptized in the village, in the church called Opu Melchisedech, receive their actual baptism in the spring itself. Then, directly afterwards, they go off by torchlight singing psalms and antiphones, and accompagnied by the clergy and monks.



Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #291 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 21:51:41 »
Just another thought to ponder over.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (KJV)
17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 I hear many use this passage to say that Paul did not preach baptism as did Peter but I think that they miss the meaning of this statement by Paul. I think in context Paul makes it clear that he does teach baptism in Christ name he just does not preform the act but has his brothers in Christ traveling with him to do so as for the reason he said in the scriptures just above this.

1 Corinthians 1:11-16 (KJV)
11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

In context here we see that they were already thinking the the baptizer was of importance but Paul clears that up quickly and makes the statement that he does not do the baptizing he preaches so as to avoid what is happening here.

Its not that he does not baptize he does just not many for stated reason but he does clearly teach the need and does connect it with the cross which points back to all his teaching in his other writing to the various churches.  Baptism in Christ name is all about what he said in verse 13.


Long story short all the debate on whether baptism in Christ name is part of the gospel Paul teaches is debuted in Paul's own words here and the various letters to the churches where he makes it clear that it is where the cross is connected to it.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #292 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 21:54:28 »
Yogi Bear,
Quote
One more clarification, Yes I understand everyone's hypothetical questions as what if but that is not addressed in the word and yes I am sure God will handle all such questions justly but as for studying what is recorded I feel that we have ample record of what is expected of us and we should follow what was recorded and let God handle  hypothetical .
Agreed.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #293 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 03:48:22 »
RB, I hope you got a good report from your doctor.
So far, good. More test next week. This is more for my dear wife who worries she might lose her man that takes cares of the grass~ ::smile:: It's hard for me to convince her that when I'm not working "I'm thinking on how I can make us rich"! You know where I borrowed that line do you not?  ::smile:: These test is the first time I been to the doctors in seven to eight years. I take care of myself but like all of us, just old age is slowing me down with more pains, etc. My life is in God's hand, and when it's time to leave, I'm leaving, when it is not, I'm staying for another day. I know you know that as well.
Quote from: Norton Reply #283 on: Yesterday at 11:12:12
I remember my mother commenting in Sunday School class that that doctrine smacks of Catholicism, and I agreed with her.
A very wise woman and we both know she was correct.
Quote from: Norton Reply #283 on: Yesterday at 11:12:12
On this forum I have been preaching that baptism must not be absolutely essential for salvation because if it is essential, then it is part of the cause of salvation.
Well, with that statement taking it at face value then I agree with you.
Quote from: Norton Reply #283 on: Yesterday at 11:12:12
Paul said several times that what we do is not the cause of our salvation.
Again, taking what you are saying at face value, then I must agree. There's not one thing in that confession that I should disagree with.
Quote
That is my reasoning, and it is subject to being wrong, but I think maybe we are on common ground in that one point.
I see not one thing with your understanding at this point where we do disagree.
Quote from: Norton Reply #283 on: Yesterday at 11:12:12
So let me pose this question to you.

Even though getting baptized is not the cause of one's salvation, is it Biblically possible that, even if one believes in Christ, that scornfully rejecting baptism could be a cause of one's condemnation? That is not directed at anyone in particular. It has been a question on my mind for some time.
Brother,  NOT to evade your question, but it is impossible for one to truly believe Christ, and THEN scornfully reject to be baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ. That being said~ If I met such a person, then I would tell him what Peter said to Simon in Acts 8:22~"For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity". If one does not have the humble and eager spirit like the Ethiopian eunuch had in Acts 8, then we do not have a person who should be baptized.
Quote from: Norton Reply #283 on: Yesterday at 11:12:12
could be a cause of one's condemnation?
It would be. True faith does not have to be persuaded that they should do this or that, but one that has true faith will DESIRE to do whatever God commands them to do...come hell or high water, as the old saying goes.  Baptism in the scriptures ALWAYS happens when faith was seen in its first sign of operation~it was NEVER given as an option to wait, even though there may be a reason why baptism must wait, it would be NOT the norm. BUT, waiting DOES NOT mean one is NOT a child of God, faith is the system God has placed his children under even from the very beginning, from Abel on. Neither circumcision nor water baptism is the system by which we are proven to be children of the living God~but, a faith which worketh by love, is the true litmus test.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 5:4-6~"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; (or baptism) but faith which worketh by love."
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 03:54:05 by RB »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #294 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 04:19:01 »
Inconsistency certainly does signal the likelihood of error. 
4WD, you would argue with Jesus if he was here. It does not just signal that it might be, IT IS.
Quote from: 4WD  Reply #277 on: Yesterday at 06:46:51
  But I would not say that it is the hallmark of error.
Then what does it mean when men cannot delivery/present their doctrine without inconsistency? You tell me and the rest reading your post.
Quote from: 4WD  Reply #277 on: Yesterday at 06:46:51
That would imply, to some degree at least, that consistency would be the hallmark of truth.
You are not following what I have said many times over~I'm NOT speaking of be consistent in being a "rubber stamp" ~BUT, being consistent in having a CONSISTENT FLOW of TRUTH from one scripture to another to another....consistency "IN" the scriptures and allow them to give us God's truth to us.

Rest of your post is just useless mocking as usual. I answered your post by correcting your misunderstanding of what I was saying. You found a small quote and labored to make me an offender. You know who else did such things in the scriptures? You probably do not want to know. 
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 04:22:14 by RB »

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #295 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 04:25:07 »
RB,I hope as well that the outcome of your doctor visit went well.
Thank you my friend for your knidness. 

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #296 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 05:19:43 »
Rest of your post is just useless mocking as usual. I answered your post by correcting your misunderstanding of what I was saying.
I did not intend it to be mocking.  I was not trying to make fun of anything.  I was trying, in a sort of a not nasty way, to point out that you, my friend, are very consistent in what you present; but it is consistently wrong.

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #297 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 07:00:15 »
RB
Glad to hear things are OK. I turned 70 this year, seem to be in good health, but the old body just won't keep up like it use to.

Thanks for your good reply. You answered my question with a stronger reply than I ask it. I ask if scornfully rejecting baptism could be a cause of one's condemnation. You said it would be. What about willfully neglecting to be baptized?

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #298 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 08:02:43 »
I did not intend it to be mocking.  I was not trying to make fun of anything.  I, to point out that you, my friend, are very consistent in what you present; but it is consistently wrong. was trying, in a sort of a not nasty way
My dear brother, we disagree, yet I truly love your faith in the scriptures. Brother, you are a great person to have on one's side in debates because of your gift to articulate most all subjects, be whatever it may be. 4WD, if you were not here, I would be a very lonely man for sure and a little sad.

I must run....later. RB

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #299 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 08:06:25 »
RB Glad to hear things are OK. I turned 70 this year,
I will be 70 August 19th
Quote from: Norton Reply #297 on: Today at 07:00:15
What about willfully neglecting to be baptized?
Later my brother.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #300 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 08:18:51 »
See, now that is the problem.  You are both much too young to have a fully matured thinking ability.  ::smile::

Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #301 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 09:46:55 »
See, now that is the problem.  You are both much too young to have a fully matured thinking ability.  ::smile::
Being an honorable person like Reagan, I will not exploit RB's youth and immaturity to my advantage in our discussions. He is younger than I, so I will be easy on him.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #302 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 11:09:21 »
YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO READ THIS: I just have to do something while listening to Congressional Hearing.

Yogi bear:
Quote
Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
26  For ye are all the Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
26  For ye are all the children of God (1) by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  (2) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ (3)have put on Christ.
28  (4)There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. .
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
WE are children of God by faith BECAUSE we were baptized  into Christ

There is many proofs that this is true so that claiming that we are saved by FAITH alone ignores the text and a lack of appreciation for the whole body of Scriptures.

(1) The word faith in Greek and Hebrews includes acting upon what you TRUST for your salvation.)
(2) The word FOR means that we are saved by faith BECAUSE we have been baptized
(3) Faith without actions never gets one INTO Christ.
(4) There is no distinction between races of people

We have quoted over and over from Genesis 49 that the godly people were NOT to join in the assemblies or covenant with Levi.

Abraham was not SAVED by FAITH ONLY: He was JUSTIFIED because he obeyed God's commands.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
         and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
        and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham
        obeyed my voice,
        and kept my charge,
        my commandments,
        my statutes,
        and my laws.

Especially in Galatians 3 Paul DISCOUNTS the Law Period as ever related to Spiritual Life.  The Covenant made by God in Christ with Abraham was NEVER ALTERED by the Law.

Paul very often uses forms of parallelism: He restates the first statement wiith an explanation so that no one can get confused.

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:27 (What I mean to say is)
        as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
        have PUT ON Christ.

One never gets the Bridal Garment without washing.

[27] quicumque enim in Christo baptizati estis Christum induistis

Enim why because, for, for instance, namely, that is to say, I mean, in fact I. To corroborate a preceding assertion, yes indeed, yes truly, of a truth, to be sure, certainly, indeed: A. To prove or show the grounds of a preceding assertion

ĕt-ĕnim ,
I. conj., subjoins a corroborative clause, or one which contains the reason of a preceding statement, for, truly, and indeed, because that, since (not freq. till class. times,

Literary example

Cic. Off. 1.39 13. Again, if under stress of circumstances individuals have made any promise to the enemy, they are bound to keep their word even then.

FOR INSTANCE , in the First Punic War, when Regulus was taken prisoner by the Carthaginians, he was sent to Rome on parole to negotiate an exchange of prisoners;

Heb. 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
        having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience,  based on the blood of Jesus.
        and our bodies washed with pure water.

WASHED: g3068. lou/w louo, loo´-o; a primary verb; to bathe (the whole person; whereas 3538 means to wet a part only, and 4150 to wash, cleanse garments exclusively): — wash.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #303 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 13:24:52 »
What about willfully neglecting to be baptized?
Brother your questions are getting harder. Okay, here's my answer to that question, and a fair and good question I might add.

I assume much like the Quakers (who reject NT baptism)  who trust in Inward Light~that teaches that "all" have inner light, it is above Scripture "Conservative Quakers identify the Light of Christ as both the historical, living Jesus, and as the Grace of God extended by him that simultaneously makes us conscious of our sins, forgives them, and gives us the strength and the will to overcome them. The Light might be explained as the outpouring of the loving influence of God, extended through Christ to all people as the means of their potential salvation".

Thereby, baptism is willfully not practiced through their so-called inner light. They reject the scriptures for their precious inner light teaching. They are not of God, (God is their final Judge) neither any man that willfully rejects baptism.

Willfully is a strong word~"With a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences"~Oxford dictionary.

People who willfully reject scriptures are in turn saying:  "The Bible is only my guide, not primary, and is subordinate to inner revelation, or to my wisdom and what "I" think and believe". Such people do not know God. They might give a good talk, but that about it. We live by every word of God and reject even our own precious feelings and even what grandma taught us and mine did believed differently than the scriptures even though they use the scriptures...I love her, but I serve God, not Grandma Baker.

The Pharisees rejected John's baptism, thereby rejected the COUNCIL of God~
Quote from: Luke
Luke 7:30~"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."
So we read:
Quote from: Jesus
Luke 7:31-35~"And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children."
Where there is the truth of God, the children of God will by their life of submission to the scriptures prove where the TRUE wisdom of God is and where it is NOT. True children of God will submit to ALL OF God's COUNCIL and do not cherry pick them.

Trust this answered your question for me...I'm sure you have more and they will get harder, but let them come~they just might help others.




« Last Edit: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 13:46:08 by RB »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #304 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 15:22:39 »
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat,
       and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart,
       because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them,
        Go ye into all the world,
        and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth
      AND is baptized
      shall be saved;

That's how to be saved: there are many ways to be damned.

        but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

Complieth Not is the MEANING of Believeth Not Jesus connecting obedience in baptism as the WAY He determined to give believers A good conscience as the way that BAPTISM DOTH NOW SAVE.

Psa. 78:22 Because they believed not in God, AND trusted not in his salvation:
Psa. 78:23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,

Luke 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak,
       until the day that these things shall be performed,
       because thou believest not my words,
       which shall be fulfilled in their season.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, BECAUSE ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Those who RECEIVED THE WORD GLADLY were BAPTIZED.
Those who BELIEVETH NOT or will not or NEED NOT comply and obey the direct word of Jesus will be damned.  They refuse BECAUSE they are SELF WILLED and can't stop challenging the Prophecy of the Spirit, the example and command of Jesus and everyone.



Offline Norton

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #305 on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 20:24:26 »
RB
I guess if I were to ask more questions the next would be, can careless neglect of not being baptized condemn a person. I do not demand to be answered. You are being honest with me, so that's all I ask. I think maybe you see my point, that it is not all that hard to end up with the idea that baptism is essential for salvation. I do not see that, ordinarily, the doctrine that baptism is essential, is a damnable heresy. Yes, as you caused me to realize, the doctrine when combined with other extremes, can be very harmful. Then, it does become another gospel. And then there are some who seem to have a contempt for the ordinance of baptism. Another dangerous extreme. May we all avoid the extremes. God with you.

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #306 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 04:22:10 »
RB, I guess if I were to ask more questions the next would be, can careless neglect of not being baptized condemn a person. I do not demand to be answered.
Brother that's probably the most important one of all to answer.

My brother I read a post made just like I do the scriptures...WITHIN the context of the what you are asking, the only way I can give to you what you are truly asking.

"Careless neglect"~Not giving sufficient attention or thought to avoiding harm or errors~Oxford dictionary.

Your question is a very sincere question and deserves a biblical answer as much as we can. This will not be easy, I'm thinking as I'm typing. My temperament does not understand such people who seem to believe, yet seemly have very little zeal to make sure what they are trusting in is what they want to take with them when they leave this world to face their Creator and Judge. If they truly have faith, it is NOT the faith that I desire to have. If Christ's religion is worthy of me denying myself and taking up my cross and following him, then why be LUKEWARM concerning this? This is NOT the faith of God's elect. Yes, I know we all are on different levels and we should not judge our brethren by our faith and conscience, yet lukewarm believers, I have no desire to be around, they are not much different than the world, and most of them may very well be the world using only their tongue occasionally to give themselves a hope of having BOTH worlds. Once a person thinks he going to heaven, then it is almost impossible to convince himself otherwise regardless of his actions and disregard for the scriptures doctrines.

Brother, I often think of Lot Abraham's nephew, our brother Lot, I think you know him. He did not follow God's word to the same degree as Abraham did not even close, yet did believe and had a sense of right and wrong to a point his righteous soul was vexed day by day in what he heard and saw in Sodom...yet, NOT enough to cause him to flee.  Now, if the scriptures did not tell me that he was righteous, I certainly would not have believed he was, based on what little good we see that came from his life and the careless choices he made over and over again.

Now, I would NOT want to leave this world following Lot and his careless choices, it cost him dearly not only in this world but no doubt to a certain degree in the world to come, which we cannot speak particularly based on so little that is revealed to us.

A professed believer living a careless life especially so toward God's truths are taking chances with the life to come~where God alone will separate the sheep from the goats, and many who thought they were set for eternity will hear these soul piercing words:
Quote from: JESUS
Matthew 7:21-23~"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
The true Christian is one that hears and does what God commands as much as lieth with them, not perfectly, by a long shot, YET the holy desire is there and it grieves them when they fall short of pleasing God.....so, why would they not arise immediately and be baptized into the religion of the Son of God, if they refuse or even procrastinate then I would say to those people that they are not following the example left for us in the scriptures which they profess to believe in, thereby, they should not take any comfort from the scriptures until they with a conscience void of offense gives to God the answer of a good conscience that they truly believe. A careless professor is NOT a disciple indeed~John 8:31.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 04:32:59 by RB »

Offline grams

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #307 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 09:54:31 »
12 REASONS THE BELIEVER

IN THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD

IS ETERNALLY SECURE

[[[ to much to post so if you want to know go ]]]]]]>>>

http://www.rightlydividing.org/grace.html

____________________________________________ _______

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/12REASONSFORETERNALSECURITY.htm
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 09:59:23 by grams »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #308 on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 10:03:51 »
12 REASONS THE BELIEVER

IN THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD

IS ETERNALLY SECURE

[[[ to much to post so if you want to know go ]]]]]]>>>

http://www.rightlydividing.org/grace.html

____________________________________________ _______

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/12REASONSFORETERNALSECURITY.htm


Shame these "Pauline" churches call themselves Bible Churches. 

Offline grams

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #309 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 15:39:34 »
It  is  in the bible ...............!

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #310 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 16:31:28 »
The teachings of Jesus and Paul are almost always ANTITHESIS of the views of pagans. The three Graces of Ugliness are one view of the most ancient TRIPLE GODDESSES.  Notice the symbolism of the LITERAL GRACE as permissiveness demanded



The GRACES and MUSES as Apollon's worship team were not nice people.

Grace is in the same class as WORD or LIGHT, LIFE.  Jesus is the Visible-Audible Image of all of God's qualities and authority.

Notice that GRACE actually APPEARS and TEACHES in the same class as WORD which is the visible-audible image and dispenser of God's REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE.  Baptism imaged by the flood and Red Sea is the MAKING KNOWN of the Prophetic Teachings of God. Someone else does all of the work involved in baptizing you and you cannot WORK your way by REJECTING the First command of Jesus to go, teach, baptize, and teach as the meaning of the ASSEMBLY.

The Biblical REST Jesus rest FORBIDS any work beyond being refreshed by INGESTING the Free Water and Bread of the WORD.

GRACE hath APPEARED like LIGHT in the Face of Jesus. God's GRACE is the BY which were are KEPT SAFE by FAITH which obeys.





 

     
anything