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fanuvmxpx
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2009, 12:24:07 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on March 10, 2009, 12:09:48 PM
I think its an interesting discussion because in the new testament we are told only to marry as a last resort....

No marrying = no kids.

It would be very difficult to be fruitful and multiply if singleness is the preferred status as a christian.

Ooh Tantor...good comparison. I had not made that connection yet. Perhaps this command was for the human race in general.
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2009, 12:24:07 PM »
 
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 12:32:00 PM »
Given the tremendous amount of advertising these days on tv for "male enhancement" (just about every other one! right behind or ahead of debt stuff and third to law suits of some kind), be fruitful and multiply would be interpreted in terms of size and number of orgasms.
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 12:32:00 PM »
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 12:42:33 PM »
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 09, 2009, 06:46:04 PM
Chronologically the first commandment by God is found in this passage.

Genesis 1:27-28 (New American Standard Bible)

 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Experienced Bible Readers know that God often spoke about his followers multiplying like the grains of sand on the seashore and the stars in the heavens. That's a lot of people!

Here is a sample Scripture.
Genesis 22:17 (New American Standard Bible)

 17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So are those who practice "Birth Control" thwarting God's plan to multiply "as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore?"


Stuart Shepherd



Let me get this right. You think this is an eternal command for all to obey?  Scratching head....a little confused.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 02:09:31 PM »
The Jews during Christ's day considered procreation a command from God.  For a woman to be barren was considered a curse.  Men were expected to procreate, to not do so was a questionable life-style, not commonly accepted.  Jesus radically challenged this prevailing belief when He said "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven." (Mt. 19:12). 

The concept that a person could renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of God was a radical concept to the average Jew though the Essenes that isolated themselves from everyone else promoted celibacy. 

So should we consider procreation as a command from God that we must obey?  I don't believe so.  Rather, God speaking such a directive set in motion the common physical, emotional, and psychological drive to procreate.  But, we must recognize that some are not born with that desire, others loose that desire, and yet others submit that desire to death because of their passion and calling in the kingdom of God.
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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 09:14:16 PM »
Quote from: phoebe on March 10, 2009, 12:42:33 PM
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 09, 2009, 06:46:04 PM
Chronologically the first commandment by God is found in this passage.

Genesis 1:27-28 (New American Standard Bible)

 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Experienced Bible Readers know that God often spoke about his followers multiplying like the grains of sand on the seashore and the stars in the heavens. That's a lot of people!

Here is a sample Scripture.
Genesis 22:17 (New American Standard Bible)

 17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So are those who practice "Birth Control" thwarting God's plan to multiply "as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore?"


Stuart Shepherd



Let me get this right. You think this is an eternal command for all to obey?  Scratching head....a little confused.


Yes ..absolutely....Don't you?

Look up the phrase "Be fruitful and multiply" and see that God repeats this commandment about a half dozen times.
He must be serious about it.

Stuart Shepherd
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 09:24:22 PM »
Quote from: Sherman Nobles on March 10, 2009, 02:09:31 PM
The Jews during Christ's day considered procreation a command from God.  For a woman to be barren was considered a curse.  Men were expected to procreate, to not do so was a questionable life-style, not commonly accepted.  Jesus radically challenged this prevailing belief when He said "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven." (Mt. 19:12). 

The concept that a person could renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of God was a radical concept to the average Jew though the Essenes that isolated themselves from everyone else promoted celibacy. 

So should we consider procreation as a command from God that we must obey?  I don't believe so.  Rather, God speaking such a directive set in motion the common physical, emotional, and psychological drive to procreate.  But, we must recognize that some are not born with that desire, others loose that desire, and yet others submit that desire to death because of their passion and calling in the kingdom of God.

Read your Scripture in context.....
Matthew 19:8-12 (New American Standard Bible)

 8He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.

 9"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

 10The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

 11But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

 12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Those who ""divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." ""
Since the continual practice of adultery results in marrying again after divorcing a wife except for immorality, or marrying  a divorced woman, some become eunuchs in order not to miss out on the kingdom of God.

That is the meaning of the passage.

Stuart Shepherd
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 09:24:22 PM »
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2009, 10:24:59 PM »
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 09, 2009, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: Johnb on March 09, 2009, 07:00:54 PM
When man was told to multiply there were few people,  There are now Billions.  I think that command has been followed.  As for the promise it was given to Abraham and has been accomplished.

Those praticing birth control are exercising a personal choice and good judgement.

You are making a big decision in God's name. How do we know that God is satisfied that there are enough people?
Certainly there are less people than the grains of sand and the stars of heaven.

Did you ever drive along an Interstate Highway in western USA? There is plenty of empty space for cities full of people.

God said "Be Fruitful and Multiply" about seven times in the Bible. [look it up] He must be serious.

Stuart Shepherd
 

well the UK is way too overcrowded already, as are many many other countries.
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2009, 02:43:56 AM »
you can actually make a baby without sex;

1. take a ball of yarn
2. take 3 cups of condensed milk
3. find a couple of old paper clips...the kind with rust on them
4. get a bucket of water
5. find an old tv controller from the 80's you have kept all these years
6. wd-40


only 6 objects for that is man's number! no more than that


* carefully mix all ingredients together
then sit on top of the bucket....
wait for 3 hours


the bucket is now ready to produce a baby.. it's now fertile!
just put it under the kitchen sink and wait 9 months
'dont peek'!


after 9 months, take it out and look in the bucket!!


should be either a bouncy baby boy or a bouncy baby girl
or perhaps a 'gorilla'!  if things don't happen right.
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2009, 05:58:40 AM »
Tantor - I think its an interesting discussion because in the new testament we are told only to marry as a last resort....

No marrying = no kids.

It would be very difficult to be fruitful and multiply if singleness is the preferred status as a christian.

larry2 - I had come to think I would never agree with Tantor, but amen.

1 Corrinthians 7:8  I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. (Paul was believed to be Single)
 
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2009, 05:58:40 AM »
 
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2009, 08:10:35 AM »
Quote from: James Rondon on March 09, 2009, 10:13:16 PM
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 09, 2009, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Johnb on March 09, 2009, 09:27:06 PM
Where are Abraham's children today?

Unless you are a member of congress 5 billion is a lot.   Yes if everyone shares the wealth and technology the earth may support more folks but we are talking reality here not fairy tales.  Now it is the fault of greedy folks that so many don;t have enough to eat.  You must be a liberal democrat.  I suspect you make arguments for arguments sake not to seek answers or understand what truth is.  Sorry but every thread I have read that you have started seems to make a big deal over trivial matters and just to be different or have something artificial to discuss.     

Yes ...I'm a liberal Democrat.
Do you think that Jesus is a Republican.
Remember what Jesus said about the Rich Republicans.

Matthew 19:24 (New American Standard Bible)

 24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich Republican to enter the kingdom of God."

Stuart Shepherd

Rich Republicans?

As opposed to Rich Democrats?

Yeah, you know like Soros and Buffet.  Good republicans both. Frowning
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2009, 08:10:35 AM »
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2009, 10:28:59 AM »
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 10, 2009, 09:24:22 PM
Quote from: Sherman Nobles on March 10, 2009, 02:09:31 PM
The Jews during Christ's day considered procreation a command from God.  For a woman to be barren was considered a curse.  Men were expected to procreate, to not do so was a questionable life-style, not commonly accepted.  Jesus radically challenged this prevailing belief when He said "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven." (Mt. 19:12). 

The concept that a person could renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of God was a radical concept to the average Jew though the Essenes that isolated themselves from everyone else promoted celibacy. 

So should we consider procreation as a command from God that we must obey?  I don't believe so.  Rather, God speaking such a directive set in motion the common physical, emotional, and psychological drive to procreate.  But, we must recognize that some are not born with that desire, others loose that desire, and yet others submit that desire to death because of their passion and calling in the kingdom of God.

Read your Scripture in context.....
Matthew 19:8-12 (New American Standard Bible)

 8He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
 9"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
 10The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
 11But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
 12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Those who ""divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." ""
Since the continual practice of adultery results in marrying again after divorcing a wife except for immorality, or marrying  a divorced woman, some become eunuchs in order not to miss out on the kingdom of God.

That is the meaning of the passage.
Stuart Shepherd

Actually Stuart, if you had been on this forum longer, you'd know that many people understand the context of Mat. 19, radically different than a simplistic cursory interpretation with no understanding of the culture.  If you're interested, check out the following link on MDR; http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html.  If not, no worries.

In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context.  You are welcome to research the Jewish context in which Matthew was written; such will help you tremendously in better understanding the passage in chapter 19 especially.

Concerning celibacy, not only did Jesus indicate that some choose celibacy as a means of fulfilling their calling in the Kindom of God, but Jesus himself modeled such - remaining single to fulfill his calling.  And of course, Paul also chose to remain single in order to better fulfill his calling; and he even went so far as to encourage singleness, and thus forgoing having children. 

The point is that whether to marry or be single, procreate or not, is a decision that the Lord inspires each person concerning, and that the Lord fulfills individually.  Most people need to marry; but some are gifted with celibacy and are encouraged to devote themselves fully to the kingdom of God, fulfilling their calling.  And yet many desire to marry and have children but for one reason or another have not had that fulfilled in their lives. 

I personally am married, have 4 children and would like to adopt some more as the Lord provides.  From our marriage, we've always simply trusted God to bring us children as He wills, not using any contraceptives. 
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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2009, 11:25:38 AM »
Quote from: Sherman Nobles on March 11, 2009, 10:28:59 AM
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 10, 2009, 09:24:22 PM
Quote from: Sherman Nobles on March 10, 2009, 02:09:31 PM
The Jews during Christ's day considered procreation a command from God.  For a woman to be barren was considered a curse.  Men were expected to procreate, to not do so was a questionable life-style, not commonly accepted.  Jesus radically challenged this prevailing belief when He said "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven." (Mt. 19:12). 

The concept that a person could renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of God was a radical concept to the average Jew though the Essenes that isolated themselves from everyone else promoted celibacy. 

So should we consider procreation as a command from God that we must obey?  I don't believe so.  Rather, God speaking such a directive set in motion the common physical, emotional, and psychological drive to procreate.  But, we must recognize that some are not born with that desire, others loose that desire, and yet others submit that desire to death because of their passion and calling in the kingdom of God.

Read your Scripture in context.....
Matthew 19:8-12 (New American Standard Bible)

 8He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
 9"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
 10The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
 11But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
 12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Those who ""divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." ""
Since the continual practice of adultery results in marrying again after divorcing a wife except for immorality, or marrying  a divorced woman, some become eunuchs in order not to miss out on the kingdom of God.

That is the meaning of the passage.
Stuart Shepherd

Actually Stuart, if you had been on this forum longer, you'd know that many people understand the context of Mat. 19, radically different than a simplistic cursory interpretation with no understanding of the culture.  If you're interested, check out the following link on MDR; http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html.  If not, no worries.

In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context.  You are welcome to research the Jewish context in which Matthew was written; such will help you tremendously in better understanding the passage in chapter 19 especially.

Concerning celibacy, not only did Jesus indicate that some choose celibacy as a means of fulfilling their calling in the Kindom of God, but Jesus himself modeled such - remaining single to fulfill his calling.  And of course, Paul also chose to remain single in order to better fulfill his calling; and he even went so far as to encourage singleness, and thus forgoing having children. 

The point is that whether to marry or be single, procreate or not, is a decision that the Lord inspires each person concerning, and that the Lord fulfills individually.  Most people need to marry; but some are gifted with celibacy and are encouraged to devote themselves fully to the kingdom of God, fulfilling their calling.  And yet many desire to marry and have children but for one reason or another have not had that fulfilled in their lives. 

I personally am married, have 4 children and would like to adopt some more as the Lord provides.  From our marriage, we've always simply trusted God to bring us children as He wills, not using any contraceptives. 

Dear Sherman,
It's Ok to disagree with me but I take exception to your pseudo superior attitude and tell me ""In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context. ""
If you don't have Scripture to back up your assertions I can't even consider that your verbiage relevant.


Stuart Shepherd
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 11:31:05 AM »
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 11, 2009, 11:25:38 AM
Dear Sherman,
It's Ok to disagree with me but I take exception to your pseudo superior attitude and tell me ""In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context. ""
If you don't have Scripture to back up your assertions I can't even consider that your verbiage relevant.

How can you produce a scripture that says "Stuart Shepherd, you need to study history"? Would you care to hold a Latin mass for us without ever studying Latin?
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 11:31:05 AM »
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2009, 11:36:40 AM »
The word "ignorance" if used properly according to the biblical understanding.  As Sherman did appropriately in his response to Sturat.

The word "ignorance" is based upon  one's "lack of knowledge".  Used properly, as Sherman did, the word is in no way a slam on that individual.  Basically all Sherman is saying, is that you lack the knowledge of something.  But if you look up or check out such reference, this might help you understand better the passage in Matthew chapter 19.

We need to learn the proper biblical language, even though we live in our modern day society.
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2009, 11:47:50 AM »
Quote from: fanuvmxpx on March 11, 2009, 11:31:05 AM
Quote from: stuart shepherd on March 11, 2009, 11:25:38 AM
Dear Sherman,
It's Ok to disagree with me but I take exception to your pseudo superior attitude and tell me ""In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context. ""
If you don't have Scripture to back up your assertions I can't even consider that your verbiage relevant.

How can you produce a scripture that says "Stuart Shepherd, you need to study history"? Would you care to hold a Latin mass for us without ever studying Latin?

I am a college graduate and a graduate of a Bible College.
Plus I have been studying the Bible all my life and I am 67 years old.

Stuart Shepherd
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