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Author Topic: Be Fruitful and Multiply  (Read 2133 times)
Mystery Man
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« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »

Dear Sherman,
It's Ok to disagree with me but I take exception to your pseudo superior attitude and tell me ""In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context. ""
If you don't have Scripture to back up your assertions I can't even consider that your verbiage relevant.

How can you produce a scripture that says "Stuart Shepherd, you need to study history"? Would you care to hold a Latin mass for us without ever studying Latin?

I am a college graduate and a graduate of a Bible College.
Plus I have been studying the Bible all my life and I am 67 years old.

Stuart Shepherd

Really? You don't write like someone 67.

From what Bible College and year did you graduate?


Age nor a lifetime of study does not equate omniscience. We all are still learning.



How does a 67 year old write ?
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« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »

 
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« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2009, 06:03:09 PM »

Send me a copy of your education will you please ?  :) 

And Phoebe was out of line.

She was out of line for being inquisitive? I thought you said your free in Christ? Does this freedom not apply to others?

LOL - Yes, she was out of line,  but not for being inquisititive.  For being blunt.  Saying you don't write like a 67 year old, is in no way one being inquisitive !

Sure it is...being 67 would suggest a different era of writing. Perhaps more verbose than a younger person having years of reading behind them. Mystery, your perceptions of inquisitiveness & bluntness are yours alone. I did not read any malice in her post. Furthermore, she apologized and said "I did not mean to offend".

Drop your superiority complex already brother. As much as you might like, you do not get to be the interpreter or authority on life, lets leave that to Abba Father ok?
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« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2009, 06:03:09 PM »

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Mystery Man
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« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2009, 06:09:03 PM »

Send me a copy of your education will you please ?  :) 

And Phoebe was out of line.

She was out of line for being inquisitive? I thought you said your free in Christ? Does this freedom not apply to others?

LOL - Yes, she was out of line,  but not for being inquisititive.  For being blunt.  Saying you don't write like a 67 year old, is in no way one being inquisitive !

Sure it is...being 67 would suggest a different era of writing. Perhaps more verbose than a younger person having years of reading behind them. Mystery, your perceptions of inquisitiveness & bluntness are yours alone. I did not read any malice in her post. Furthermore, she apologized and said "I did not mean to offend".

Drop your superiority complex already brother. As much as you might like, you do not get to be the interpreter or authority on life, lets leave that to Abba Father ok?

I read her apology, which was not an apology.  In no way was the statement warranted.    I might add, that you have judge from your point of view.  So you believe that you are the interpreter or authority of life.   This must be your superiority complex showing brother. 

Now let it go away quietly, shall we ?
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« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2009, 06:14:33 PM »

I read her apology, which was not an apology.  In no way was the statement warranted.    I might add, that you have judge from your point of view.  So you believe that you are the interpreter or authority of life.   This must be your superiority complex showing brother. 

Now let it go away quietly, shall we ?

I was merely pointing out that your interpretation was not what she literally typed. She apologized, and said "I cannot tell your age from your writings, which is why I made the statement". That's not me being a judge...that's me actually reading what she wrote.

If you do not 'feel' that it is an acceptable apology (meaning you wouldn't have taken it as such) that is your choice. But the writing is on the wall, that she did not mean to insult. I enjoy reading many of your posts, but some of them come across with a haughty spirit.
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stuart shepherd
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« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2009, 06:16:32 PM »

Dear Sherman,
It's Ok to disagree with me but I take exception to your pseudo superior attitude and tell me ""In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context. ""
If you don't have Scripture to back up your assertions I can't even consider that your verbiage relevant.

Stuart Shepherd

Anyhow, apart from that passage, I believe that Jesus too was celibate, without sin, and fulfilling every dynamic of the Law.  If procreation was a command, then Jesus did not fulfill that command.  But if procreation is a general principle, and not a "command", then Jesus did not sin.  Also, Paul was celibate and even encouraged celibacy.  " I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that." (1 Cor. 7:7).  And in that chapter he goes on to specifically encourage virgins, divorce's, widows, and widowers (basically all singles) to remain single, though he is careful to note that for singles to marry is not sinful.  

Jesus encouraged his followers to observe and obey the Law.
Matthew 23:2-3 (King James Version)
 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do

The commandment to "Be Fruitful and Multiply" is one of the 613 commandments.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Marriage, Divorce and Family
To honor father and mother (Ex. 20:12) (CCA41).
Not to smite a father or a mother (Ex. 21:15) (CCN44).
Not to curse a father or mother (Ex. 21:17) (CCN46).
To reverently fear father and mother (Lev. 19:3) (CCA42).
To be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:28) (CCA43).

I have often wondered why Jesus, and Paul did not obey this commandment.

Stuart Shepherd

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law, and He encouraged the Jewish people of the 1st Century to submit to their Civil leadership - both the Ceasar and the Pharisees.  Jesus' purpose and ministry was not oriented towards civil activism; rather, Jesus spoke prophetically calling people to a purity of heart, a restored relationship with God, and encouraged civil leaders to return to embrace the Spirit of the Law - interpret and enforce the Law accordingly. 

The reason that Jesus and Paul did not fulfull that "command" is because the Pharisees were wrong about it being a "command".  Rather, they should have understood it as God speaking into existance the natural physical and emotional drive of humans to procreate, but allowed that even though such was the natural tendency, some might choose otherwise, suppressing their natural desires to afford them the ability to accomplish other desires.  Whether those other desires are moral or immoral, healthy or unhealthy is determined otherwise individually. 

Stuart, I'm not sure as to what concept or message you're trying to encourage others to embrace - the blessedness of parenthood, large families, and trusting the Lord to provide, etc.  If this is what you're encouraging, then as a general rule, I agree.  But I also recognize that God calls and inspires individuals and couples differently, some will be inspired to not procreate but devote themselves to the advancement of the Kingdom of God. 

Why do I get the feeling that you are going beyond what the Scriptures say?
Stick to what the Bible says instead of imagining what you think its all about.

Stuart Shepherd
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stuart shepherd
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« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2009, 06:22:57 PM »

All apologies are accepted.
I am not angry with anyone.

I am just enjoying discussing the Bible, looking for truth.

Stuart Shepherd
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« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2009, 06:22:57 PM »

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Mystery Man
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« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2009, 06:24:18 PM »

I read her apology, which was not an apology.  In no way was the statement warranted.    I might add, that you have judge from your point of view.  So you believe that you are the interpreter or authority of life.   This must be your superiority complex showing brother. 

Now let it go away quietly, shall we ?

I was merely pointing out that your interpretation was not what she literally typed. She apologized, and said "I cannot tell your age from your writings, which is why I made the statement". That's not me being a judge...that's me actually reading what she wrote.

If you do not 'feel' that it is an acceptable apology (meaning you wouldn't have taken it as such) that is your choice. But the writing is on the wall, that she did not mean to insult. I enjoy reading many of your posts, but some of them come across with a haughty spirit.

Why do you continue after I asked to let it go away quietly ?   Now you add more insults and think I am finding this conversation worthy ?

She was wrong, as she knew his age from his previous post.  How does a 67 year old write ?

Now let it end, as you can not seem to grasp the sequence of the comments.  And you should learn what an appology looks like.  She didn't apologize.  She just stated that her comments were in no way to be considered an insult.  

But I can see why he responded the way he did.  And I do  not blame him.  In fact I applaude him in the way in which he handled himself.

I want everyone to get along.  But for some reason, it bothers me when someone make erroneous comments about something that they just do not understand.  Especially when they want to defend the one that was in the wrong.

Sorry if you think I said too much.  I do want this to find its way down the drain.
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« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2009, 06:32:25 PM »

Why do you continue after I asked to let it go away quietly ?

Because you have no authority over me and I wanted to calmly clarify a point

Now you add more insults and think I am finding this conversation worthy ?

Where did I insult you? I stated that some of your posts come across to readers as having a haughty spirit. This was to let you know that the way you structure some of your sentences might be taken as haughty. Should I be offended because you do not find this conversation 'worthy' of yourself?

She was wrong, as she knew his age from his previous post.  How does a 67 year old write ?

Your opinion is she was wrong. She stated in a follow up post that she didn't mean to offend him. Since she was the "offender", her follow up post is more valid than your opinion wouldn't you agree?

Now let it end, as you can not seem to grasp the sequence of the comments.  And you should learn what an appology looks like.  She didn't apologize.  She just stated that her comments were in no way to be considered an insult.

This is my final post on this topic to you and my final warning to you before you will be reported to moderators. Do not issue me commands MM.
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Mystery Man
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« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2009, 06:00:58 AM »

Why do you continue after I asked to let it go away quietly ?

Because you have no authority over me and I wanted to calmly clarify a point

Now you add more insults and think I am finding this conversation worthy ?

Where did I insult you? I stated that some of your posts come across to readers as having a haughty spirit. This was to let you know that the way you structure some of your sentences might be taken as haughty. Should I be offended because you do not find this conversation 'worthy' of yourself?

She was wrong, as she knew his age from his previous post.  How does a 67 year old write ?

Your opinion is she was wrong. She stated in a follow up post that she didn't mean to offend him. Since she was the "offender", her follow up post is more valid than your opinion wouldn't you agree?

Now let it end, as you can not seem to grasp the sequence of the comments.  And you should learn what an appology looks like.  She didn't apologize.  She just stated that her comments were in no way to be considered an insult.

This is my final post on this topic to you and my final warning to you before you will be reported to moderators. Do not issue me commands MM.

How old are you ?
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« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2009, 06:00:58 AM »

 
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Sherman Nobles
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« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2009, 10:01:19 AM »

Dear Sherman,
It's Ok to disagree with me but I take exception to your pseudo superior attitude and tell me ""In short, your interpretation is based upon a misunderstanding of both the immediate literary context and apparent ignorance of the cultural context. ""
If you don't have Scripture to back up your assertions I can't even consider that your verbiage relevant.

Stuart Shepherd

Anyhow, apart from that passage, I believe that Jesus too was celibate, without sin, and fulfilling every dynamic of the Law.  If procreation was a command, then Jesus did not fulfill that command.  But if procreation is a general principle, and not a "command", then Jesus did not sin.  Also, Paul was celibate and even encouraged celibacy.  " I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that." (1 Cor. 7:7).  And in that chapter he goes on to specifically encourage virgins, divorce's, widows, and widowers (basically all singles) to remain single, though he is careful to note that for singles to marry is not sinful.  

Jesus encouraged his followers to observe and obey the Law.
Matthew 23:2-3 (King James Version)
 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do

The commandment to "Be Fruitful and Multiply" is one of the 613 commandments.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Marriage, Divorce and Family
To honor father and mother (Ex. 20:12) (CCA41).
Not to smite a father or a mother (Ex. 21:15) (CCN44).
Not to curse a father or mother (Ex. 21:17) (CCN46).
To reverently fear father and mother (Lev. 19:3) (CCA42).
To be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:28) (CCA43).

I have often wondered why Jesus, and Paul did not obey this commandment.

Stuart Shepherd

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law, and He encouraged the Jewish people of the 1st Century to submit to their Civil leadership - both the Ceasar and the Pharisees.  Jesus' purpose and ministry was not oriented towards civil activism; rather, Jesus spoke prophetically calling people to a purity of heart, a restored relationship with God, and encouraged civil leaders to return to embrace the Spirit of the Law - interpret and enforce the Law accordingly. 

The reason that Jesus and Paul did not fulfull that "command" is because the Pharisees were wrong about it being a "command".  Rather, they should have understood it as God speaking into existance the natural physical and emotional drive of humans to procreate, but allowed that even though such was the natural tendency, some might choose otherwise, suppressing their natural desires to afford them the ability to accomplish other desires.  Whether those other desires are moral or immoral, healthy or unhealthy is determined otherwise individually. 

Stuart, I'm not sure as to what concept or message you're trying to encourage others to embrace - the blessedness of parenthood, large families, and trusting the Lord to provide, etc.  If this is what you're encouraging, then as a general rule, I agree.  But I also recognize that God calls and inspires individuals and couples differently, some will be inspired to not procreate but devote themselves to the advancement of the Kingdom of God. 

Why do I get the feeling that you are going beyond what the Scriptures say?
Stick to what the Bible says instead of imagining what you think its all about.

Stuart Shepherd

Maybe you get that feeling because you don't know Scripture quite as well as you think you do.  But again it seems as if you're here to just argue, and I don't want to waste my time doing so.  So have a nice argument with others who enjoy such too or want to correct your misinterpretation of scripture. 
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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2009, 10:01:19 AM »

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« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2009, 10:20:41 AM »

Sherman said
Maybe you get that feeling because you don't know Scripture quite as well as you think you do.  But again it seems as if you're here to just argue, and I don't want to waste my time doing so.  So have a nice argument with others who enjoy such too or want to correct your misinterpretation of scripture.   
 
 
 
Yep! That makes 2 of us I decided this soon after he started posting.
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