Author Topic: Born OF and not IN? ... A translation error or was the original Greek corrected?  (Read 7305 times)

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Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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A euphemism born of water for physical birth is never used anywhere else in the bible.  It was not a euphemism then; it is not a euphemism now. It is simply a construct by those who refuse to accept the connection of the water of John3 for the water of baptism, which it most naturally is.
Euphemisms?  Do you mean symbols?

The Bible associates water with birth and creation in multiple places.  In Genesis 1, everything is created from "waters."  In Job, the creation is also from waters.  In Revelation, the beasts and kingdoms come up out of waters.

If you study Hebrew, you will find that "waters" include anything that is unformed, from amniotic fluid to the oceans to thought-not-yet-conceived.  Creation and birth are presented as the forming of something out of waters.  If you do not see this in Scripture, you have failed to understand the language.

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Offline RB

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You have got to be kidding.  That was not Isaac being born again.  That was Isaac being born the first time -- PHYSICALLY.

I seriously doubt that you were conceived in a woman by a man, both beyond their years of fertility through the direct intercession of God.
Brother, slow down, I never said it was Isaac actually being born again, what I said was it was a perfect type, or allegory of how we are born again~what I did not add, for sake of time was  the energy of the flesh had nothing to do with Issac being born naturally, it was through the promises of God and the POWER of God, that Isaac was born naturally. Every person that has experienced the new birth, has experienced this because of God's promises and His holy oath....this is the truth of God's word~this is the gospel of the word of God, any other is another gospel, and is under the curse of God, for preaching another gospel, other than the one that alone honors the oath and promises of God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Quote
I seriously doubt that you were conceived in a woman by a man, both beyond their years of fertility through the direct intercession of God.
Never said I was, and never said Issac was not, because he was, which proved that he was not born through the energy of their flesh, but alone by God's promises of grace to them and His power alone.

Neither is any person born again through the energy of their flesh, or by any power except the power of God regenerating them based on his promises of grace and His holy oath to the seed of His Son~who are a chosen generation a special people to God, who loved them from everlasting and will to everlasting, world without end, alone because He willed to do so
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 07, 2022 - 03:20:59 by RB »

Offline RB

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A euphemism born of water for physical birth is never used anywhere else in the bible.  It was not a euphemism then; it is not a euphemism now. It is simply a construct by those who refuse to accept the connection of the water of John3 for the water of baptism, which it most naturally is.
4WD, the question which Nicodemus asked had never been asked before, at least not in the scripture. If Nicodemus had not ask the question which he did, then it is so plain our Lord Jesus would have never mention water in any sense whatsoever, and we know this by following the context of this brief discourse where water is never mention again. Consider, please:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST THE GREATEST OF ALL PROPHETS/TEACHERS hear ye him
John 3:6-8~"That which is born of the flesh is flesh ( Water~RB) ; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (a new creation within a man unseen by human eyes, known only by the fruits of the Spirit~RB)

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Nicodemus trying to understand how this is possible without reentering his mother's womb and being born AGAIN....even if that was possible, it still would come out FLESH/SINFUL at enmity against God!~RB)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We ask, why is water not mentioned again with the Spirit? Should be an easy answer, but it is not, for some labor hard to protect the doctrine that they have been taught.

Water is not mentioned again in verse 8? because the Lord told us why: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh". Water is the first birth we all experience when we came from our mother's womb, when the water breaks the baby IS BORN, or will be very soon. But, it comes forth as FLESH, which is sinful and at enmity against the God of heaven, regardless of how cute and innocent they may look, TIME will prove just how sinful they are, and without any biblical training they all will turn out to be devils in human flesh, when left to themselves, and even with good training they still may turn out to be very wicked, without the new birth, and even that does not rid them of their sinful flesh~yet, the new man has power to mortify the flesh and have victory over it, but never can eradicate the flesh~impossible.

The new birth is a birth performed by the Spirit of God alone upon whomsoever He will.

Offline 4WD

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Euphemisms?  Do you mean symbols?
No, I mean Euphemism. Water is not a symbol of anything in John 3:1-15. And the assignment of born of water to mean physical birth is not a symbol it is meant as a euphemism.  And if water is a symbol in Jesus' phrase "being born with water and Spirit" in His talk with Nicodemus, then what does that make Spirit?
Quote from: W_S
The Bible associates water with birth and creation in multiple places.
Really? Show me one place where the Bible associates water with birth.


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Offline 4WD

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Brother, slow down, I never said it was Isaac actually being born again, what I said was it was a perfect type, or allegory of how we are born again~what I did not add, for sake of time was  the energy of the flesh had nothing to do with Issac being born naturally, it was through the promises of God and the POWER of God, that Isaac was born naturally.
But the energy of the flesh had everything to do with Issac being born naturally.  God just extended or renewed the fertility of Abraham and Sarah so that Isaac could be born naturally by the "energy of the flesh". The event happened quite naturally in the joining of the Abraham's sperm cell and Sarah's egg through the usual process of Abraham's implanting the sperm cell.
Quote from: RB
Neither is any person born again through the energy of their flesh, or by any power except the power of God regenerating them based on his promises of grace and His holy oath to the seed of His Son~who are a chosen generation a special people to God, who loved them from everlasting and will to everlasting, world without end, alone because He willed to do so
You are pretty close on that, but you get it all messed up and confused with your false doctrines of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

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Offline RB

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But the energy of the flesh had everything to do with Issac being born naturally.
Isaac was born based upon God's oath and his promise of grace to Abraham, which is a type of our spiritual birth.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:13-18~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"
Quote from: Paul a true minister of the grace of God
Galatians 4:22-31~"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
To be brief, Isaac was born by God's promise to Abraham, and Ismael was born by the energy of Abraham's flesh. Sarah's womb was DEAD, just as all sinners are dead in sins and trespasses. Isaac was born according to God's oath and promise, JUST AS WE were, no different.

Now if you care to look at these scriptures in depth, let us do so. RB
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 07, 2022 - 05:55:10 by RB »

Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Show me one place where the Bible associates water with birth.
Well, the chapter we're looking at, for starters.  John 3.  ::lookaround::

It isn't just birth, but creation and adoption, both of which are also births of a type.

1 John 5:4-8, the water bears witness in the earth of those who have been re-born.
Genesis 1, everything that exists is formed from waters.
Genesis 6-8, the flood story has the whole earth buried and re-born from waters.  The New Testament explicitly tells us this is a picture of water baptism.
Exodus 2, Moses is adopted by being drawn out of water.
...

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the cosmology of the ancient world.  In virtually every culture, the cycle of birth-death-resurrection(re-birth) is pictured in terms of passing through waters to the afterlife or underworld and coming out of the waters to be re-born/resurrected.

For that matter, it might be helpful just to look at the history of the world.  Water is virtually universal as a symbol of birth, creation, and resurrection.

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Offline 4WD

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4WD, the question which Nicodemus asked had never been asked before, at least not in the scripture. If Nicodemus had not ask the question which he did, then it is so plain our Lord Jesus would have never mention water in any sense whatsoever, and we know this by following the context of this brief discourse where water is never mention again.
Whatever you think Jesus' reasoning there in "mentioning" water is moot.  The simple truth is that Jesus didn't simply mention water; Jesus made water an integral part of being born AGAIN right there with Spirit.  You posted the following and asked me to consider:

Quote from:  JESUS CHRIST THE GREATEST OF ALL PROPHETS/TEACHERS hear ye him
John 3:6-8~"That which is born of the flesh is flesh ( Water~RB) ; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (a new creation within a man unseen by human eyes, known only by the fruits of the Spirit~RB)

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Nicodemus trying to understand how this is possible without reentering his mother's womb and being born AGAIN....even if that was possible, it still would come out FLESH/SINFUL at enmity against God!~RB)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Seriously, RB, that was really bad.  You implied that what you inserted into Jesus' words to Nicodemus was Jesus' teaching.  It was not. That might have been Calvin's teaching but it most definitely was not Jesus' teaching.
Quote from: RB
Water is not mentioned again in verse 8? because the Lord told us why: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh". Water is the first birth we all experience when we came from our mother's womb, when the water breaks the baby IS BORN, or will be very soon. But, it comes forth as FLESH, which is sinful and at enmity against the God of heaven, regardless of how cute and innocent they may look, TIME will prove just how sinful they are, and without any biblical training they all will turn out to be devils in human flesh, when left to themselves, and even with good training they still may turn out to be very wicked, without the new birth, and even that does not rid them of their sinful flesh~yet, the new man has power to mortify the flesh and have victory over it, but never can eradicate the flesh~impossible.
That is such garbage. 

When a baby is born it comes forth as flesh and spirit.  The flesh of the baby is from the flesh of the parents; but the spirit [or soul] of the baby is from Spirit, from God himself. That spirit is not dead in trespasses and sins.   God did not form a dead spirit in that baby. It is alive and well just as God formed it. But later as the child grows and learns and understands and disobeys, the spirit becomes dead in HIS trespasses and sins. If and when he is born again (of water and Spirit) his spirit is once again made alive and well as it was originally at the first birth.  That is why it is call REgeneration.  That is why Jesus called it being born AGAIN.  The flesh is not born again; the spirit is born again.  God does it again.  God generated that spirit originally in the child; God regenerates that spirit. That man is no longer dead but is made alive again.

RB, just because Jesus did not repeat the word water in verse 8 as He did in verse 5, you cannot ignore or dismiss the fact that He did say "water and Spirit" in verse 5.  Verse 8 does not negate verse 5, no matter how much you wish it did.
Quote from: RB[size=10pt
The new birth is a birth performed by the Spirit of God alone upon whomsoever He will.[/size]
That is indeed the case and God has told us who those are.  They are whosoever believe and are baptized.

Offline 4WD

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To be brief, Isaac was born by God's promise to Abraham, and Ismael was born by the energy of Abraham's flesh. Sarah's womb was DEAD, just as all sinners are dead in sins and trespasses. Isaac was born according to God's oath and promise, JUST AS WE were, no different.
Isaac was born by the sexual intercourse between Abraham and Sarah.  You never quite understand the distinction between flesh and spirit.  You keep mixing them up.  Dead in spirit is not dead in the flesh. Sarah's womb was not dead because of her trespasses and sins.  In fact, Sarah's womb was not dead, she was just out of eggs.  God changed that.  And there is not the least bit of similarity between Sarah being out of eggs and sinners being dead in their trespasses and sins.

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Offline 4WD

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Well, the chapter we're looking at, for starters.  John 3.  ::lookaround::

It isn't just birth, but creation and adoption, both of which are also births of a type.

1 John 5:4-8, the water bears witness in the earth of those who have been re-born.
Genesis 1, everything that exists is formed from waters.
Genesis 6-8, the flood story has the whole earth buried and re-born from waters.  The New Testament explicitly tells us this is a picture of water baptism.
Exodus 2, Moses is adopted by being drawn out of water.
...

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at the cosmology of the ancient world.  In virtually every culture, the cycle of birth-death-resurrection(re-birth) is pictured in terms of passing through waters to the afterlife or underworld and coming out of the waters to be re-born/resurrected.

For that matter, it might be helpful just to look at the history of the world.  Water is virtually universal as a symbol of birth, creation, and resurrection.

Jarrod
Whatever!

For what it is worth, more than a few commentaries identify the water of 1 John 5:8 as Jesus' baptism and the blood as His death.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 07, 2022 - 07:25:55 by 4WD »

Offline Rella

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It is simply a construct by those who refuse to accept the connection of the water of John3 for the water of baptism, which it most naturally is.

NOT

Where else in the Holy Words... original texts or the myriad of assorted translations does it talk about water, regarding baptism followed "immediately" by a verse that talks of flesh and centers on Jesus talking of being born of the holy spirit to see the kingdom of God.

John 3 IS NOT about an immersion baptism.

Offline Rella

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They support what same thing, Rella?

Aramaic

3.5 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly truly I say to you, If a man is not born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Greek interlinear

John 3:5 Answered - Jesus Truly truly I say to you if not anyone be born of water and of [the]Spirit not he is able to enter into the kingdom - of  God


Aramaic and Greek say the same thing... and that same thing is BORN OF WATER and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Go on now to John 3:6 in each

Greek

John 3:6  That having been born of the flesh flesh is and that having been born of the Spirit spirit is

Aramaic (copied from Aramaic interlinear)

(the flesh) arob (from) Nm (that which is born)- [ dylyd Mdm]
(from) Nm (& that which is born)- [ dylyd Mdmw ] (is) wh (flesh) arob
(is) wh (spirit) axwr (The Spirit) axwr [/size]

We also have the "flesh tie in to vs 5 in both and both read as if the born of water if the physical birth. Especially the Aramaic.

So they support each other in what they are saying
::tippinghat::

Offline Rella

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I don't believe John 3:5 is mentioning physical birth or water baptism.  So the sprinkling thing is not applicable.

I was jesting...yet again.... to make a point.

Offline Rella

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No, it isn't baptism.  Got to read backwards for that one.

Permanent long pants  ::huggingyou:: and sammichs.  ::readytoeat::

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Aramaic

3.5 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly truly I say to you, If a man is not born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Greek interlinear

John 3:5 Answered - Jesus Truly truly I say to you if not anyone be born of water and of [the]Spirit not he is able to enter into the kingdom - of  God


Aramaic and Greek say the same thing... and that same thing is BORN OF WATER and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Go on now to John 3:6 in each

Greek

John 3:6  That having been born of the flesh flesh is and that having been born of the Spirit spirit is

Aramaic (copied from Aramaic interlinear)

(the flesh) arob (from) Nm (that which is born)- [ dylyd Mdm]
(from) Nm (& that which is born)- [ dylyd Mdmw ] (is) wh (flesh) arob
(is) wh (spirit) axwr (The Spirit) axwr


We also have the "flesh tie in to vs 5 in both and both read as if the born of water if the physical birth. Especially the Aramaic.

So they support each other in what they are saying
::tippinghat::
Why would Jesus make physical birth a requirement here?  Everyone meets that requirement; it precludes no one.

The meaning and message of verse 5 is that the spirit of man comes from God, not man.

Offline Rella

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Why would Jesus make physical birth a requirement here?  Everyone meets that requirement; it precludes no one.

The meaning and message of verse 5 is that the spirit of man comes from God, not man.


Not necessarily true. Aborted fetuses would be precluded from the ability of entering the kingdom of heaven.

Not necessarily true because if you are not of age to receive the Holy Spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

but as to "The meaning and message of verse 5 is that the spirit of man comes from God, not man."

The Holy Spirit is what is needed to enter into the kingdom. Verse 5 clearly says that in both translations.

Verse 6 says (Greek)

John 3:6  That having been born of the flesh flesh is and that having been born of the Spirit spirit is

I understand this to mean that

That having been born of the flesh ( a human mother) flesh is (a human being) and that having been born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit from above) spirt is ( the human spirit)

Why would Jesus make a physical birth a requirement here?

For those who are subscribers to predestination it makes sense because if God predestined some (or all) it would be the Holy Spirit that would complete Gods will to those He preselected.

Romans 8:30, KJV: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

John 3:8  (Greek) The wind where it wishes blows and the sound of it You hear but not you know from where it comes and where it goes thus is everyone - having been born of the Spirit  (It does not say everyone will be born of the Spirit. It suggests that the Holy Spirit is everyone but will not be on everyone... just those born of the spirit)

Offline 4WD

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Not necessarily true. Aborted fetuses would be precluded from the ability of entering the kingdom of heaven.

Not necessarily true because if you are not of age to receive the Holy Spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
You have just given us two very good reasons why the teaching of original sin is an absolutely abhorrent charge against God.  There is no justice, mercy or glory of God in keeping the perfectly innocent out of heaven and sending them to hell instead.
Quote from: Rella
but as to "The meaning and message of verse 5 is that the spirit of man comes from God, not man."

The Holy Spirit is what is needed to enter into the kingdom. Verse 5 clearly says that in both translations.

Verse 6 says (Greek)

John 3:6  That having been born of the flesh flesh is and that having been born of the Spirit spirit is

I understand this to mean that

That having been born of the flesh ( a human mother) flesh is (a human being) and that having been born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit from above) spirt is ( the human spirit)
What Jesus is telling Nicodemus in verse 5 is, "Nico, I am not talking about the physical body of a person here, I am talking about his spirit. It is dead in trespasses and sins and needs to be made alive again just as it was when God formed it in the beginning."
Quote from: Rella
Why would Jesus make a physical birth a requirement here?

For those who are subscribers to predestination it makes sense because if God predestined some (or all) it would be the Holy Spirit that would complete Gods will to those He preselected.

Romans 8:30, KJV: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
You need to back up a couple of verses in order to understand what predestination is all about. Those whom Paul is talking about is given in verse 28, specifically, he is talking about those who love God --  "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good."It is those who love God "who are called according to His purpose" They are the ones He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is those whom He called and justified.  It is those He also glorified. It is those who love God that are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

Offline RB

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Whatever you think Jesus' reasoning there in "mentioning" water is moot.  The simple truth is that Jesus didn't simply mention water; Jesus made water an integral part of being born AGAIN right there with Spirit.  .
4WD, you have made a correct point: "Whatever you think Jesus' reasoning there in "mentioning" water is moot."Yes, indeed it is moot because water would have never have been mentioned if Nicodemus had not brought up the question:
Quote
John 3:4~"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
That question is the only reason Jesus even mentions water in the very next verse in answering his question, and by leaving water out of the discourse the rest of thediscourse, proves just how moot water is in this discourse between our Lord and Nicodemus.

4WD, water has not one thing to do with being born again, not one thing. Obiviosly, context means little to people, who will do anything to push their religion's doctrine.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:39:31
The simple truth is that Jesus didn't simply mention water
I know that to be so, but you do not. It was Nicodemus who asked concerning reentering his mother's womb to be BORN AGAIN~a doctrine taught all through the scriptures, without using the exact term, yet its necessity is clearly taught over and over again in so many ways.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:39:31
Jesus made water an integral part of being born AGAIN right there with Spirit
That's called~"wishful thinking" by some, another gospel by Paul in Galatians chapter one.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:39:31
Seriously, RB, that was really bad.  You implied that what you inserted into Jesus' words to Nicodemus was Jesus' teaching.  It was not. That might have been Calvin's teaching but it most definitely was not Jesus' teaching.
The context said it was exactly what Jesus was teaching, it could not have been more clearly presented to a spiritual-minded person searching the scriptures for truth.

Concerning Calvin's teaching on John four, I really do not know, since he was somewhat confused about baptism having recently come out of the RCC, and it was not easy for the Reformers to be totally clear on their Soteriology, but to their credit, they did quite well in exposing the cult they had fled from overall considering. I'll go and look after I finish this post to you. I said these words:
Quote from: RB
Water is not mentioned again in verse 8? because the Lord told us why: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh". Water is the first birth we all experience when we came from our mother's womb, when the water breaks the baby IS BORN, or will be very soon. But, it comes forth as FLESH, which is sinful and at enmity against the God of heaven, regardless of how cute and innocent they may look, TIME will prove just how sinful they are, and without any biblical training they all will turn out to be devils in human flesh, when left to themselves, and even with good training they still may turn out to be very wicked, without the new birth, and even that does not rid them of their sinful flesh~yet, the new man has power to mortify the flesh and have victory over it, but never can eradicate the flesh~impossible.
And you said:
Quote from: 4WD Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:39:31
That is such garbage.
Well, what else can you say, it is the truth. No, that's all you can do, you certainly cannot prove it wrong. Your words are words of desperation, not of one who has truth and can prove it! 
Quote from: 4WD Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:39:31
When a baby is born it comes forth as flesh and spirit.  The flesh of the baby is from the flesh of the parents; but the spirit [or soul] of the baby is from Spirit, from God himself. That spirit is not dead in trespasses and sins.   God did not form a dead spirit in that baby. It is alive and well just as God formed it. But later as the child grows and learns and understands and disobeys, the spirit becomes dead in HIS trespasses and sins. If and when he is born again (of water and Spirit) his spirit is once again made alive and well as it was originally at the first birth.  That is why it is call REgeneration.  That is why Jesus called it being born AGAIN.  The flesh is not born again; the spirit is born again.  God does it again.  God generated that spirit originally in the child; God regenerates that spirit. That man is no longer dead but is made alive again.
Your theology goes into the face of the Son of God, who clearly said "that which is born of the flesh IS FLESH!" and we gave verses when asked by Rella, what does it mean to be born of flesh. In short, to be born OF FLESH is to be born in sin and trespasses through Adam! The flesh is sinful, and at enmity against God, the flesh is not subject to the word of God, and indeed CANNOT BE, per Paul in Romans 8.

Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet apart from Adam's posterity, by having God as his Father. The virgin birth is so important as Jesus was NOT conceived THROUGH Adam's generation, but by the power of the Highest! All born of flesh through Adam are sinners FroM CONCEPTION~just because your religion will not accept this truth, does not make it not to be true, for IT IS. Ask yourself, WHY was it imperative for Jesus to be conceived by God, and NOT through Adam's posterity? By doing so, he was HOLY from conception ON until he died as a perfect sacrifice for our sins~ otherwise, he could not have been that Lamb WITHOUT spot/sin. 

So, that which is born of FLESH THROUGH ADAM is flesh, or sinful and corrupt, and at enmity against God.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:39:31
RB, just because Jesus did not repeat the word water in verse 8 as He did in verse 5, you cannot ignore or dismiss the fact that He did say "water and Spirit" in verse 5.  Verse 8 does not negate verse 5, no matter how much you wish it did.
I have explained this above~btw, it is not that I wish he had not in verse five mention water, I know it was the most natural response he should have said, no problem on my part. Yet, I also know why he did not mention water ever again!

Offline RB

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You have just given us two very good reasons why the teaching of original sin is an absolutely abhorrent charge against God.  There is no justice, mercy or glory of God in keeping the perfectly innocent out of heaven and sending them to hell instead.
I know this is to Rella, so I will not say very much, but will say this: No one is perfectly innocent that is born of the flesh, NO ONE. The only perfectly innocent human beings that ever lived in this world were Adam and Eve, yet they did not stay in the state in which God created them, but sinned as soon as God left them to themselves!  If indeed children are innocent, then why did God COMMANDED Israelite to kill even infants and suckling?
Quote
1st Samuel 15:3~"Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
IF they were innocent as you claim, then God WOULD have been unrighteous in commanding them to be killed! There's more, but enough said. That which is born of the flesh IS SINFUL, it's just a matter of time of seeing just how sinful they can be, apart from God's grace to them.

Offline RB

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4WD, here's Calvin's take on John 3:5.6:
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5. Unless a man be born of water. This passage has been explained in various ways. Some have thought that the two parts of regeneration are distinctly pointed out, and that by the word Water is denoted the renunciation of the old man, while by the Spirit they have understood the new life. Others think that there is an implied contrast, as if Christ intended to contrast Water and Spirit, which are pure and liquid elements, with the earthly and gross nature of man. Thus they view the language as allegorical, and suppose Christ to have taught that we ought to lay aside the heavy and ponderous mass of the flesh, and to become like water and air, that we may move upwards, or, at least, may not be so much weighed down to the earth. But both opinions appear to me to be at variance with the meaning of Christ.

Chrysostom, with whom the greater part of expounders agree, makes the word Water refer to baptism. The meaning would then be, that by baptism we enter into the kingdom of God, because in baptism we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. Hence arose the belief of the absolute necessity of baptism, in order to the hope of eternal life. But though we were to admit that Christ here speaks of baptism, yet we ought not to press his words so closely as to imagine that he confines salvation to the outward sign; but, on the contrary, he connects the Water with the Spirit, because under that visible symbol he attests and seals that newness of life which God alone produces in us by his Spirit. It is true that, by neglecting baptism, we are excluded from salvation; and in this sense I acknowledge that it is necessary; but it is absurd to speak of the hope of salvation as confined to the sign. So far as relates to this passage, I cannot bring myself to believe that Christ speaks of baptism; for it would have been inappropriate.

We must always keep in remembrance the design of Christ, which we have already explained; namely, that he intended to exhort Nicodemus to newness of life, because he was not capable of receiving the Gospel, until he began to be a new man. It is, therefore, a simple statement, that we must be born again, in order that we may be the children of God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Author of this second birth. For while Nicodemus was dreaming of the regeneration (palingenesia) or transmigration taught by Pythagoras, who imagined that souls, after the death of their bodies, passed into other bodies, [58] Christ, in order to cure him of this error, added, by way of explanation, that it is not in a natural way that men are born a second time, and that it is not necessary for them to be clothed with a new body, but that they are born when they are renewed in mind and heart by the grace of the Spirit.

Accordingly, he employed the words Spirit and water to mean the same thing, and this ought not to be regarded as a harsh or forced interpretation; for it is a frequent and common way of speaking in Scripture, when the Spirit is mentioned, to add the word Water or Fire, expressing his power. We sometimes meet with the statement, that it is Christ who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost and with fire, (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16,) where fire means nothing different from the Spirit, but only shows what is his efficacy in us. As to the word water being placed first, it is of little consequence; or rather, this mode of speaking flows more naturally than the other, because the metaphor is followed by a plain and direct statement, as if Christ had said that no man is a son of God until he has been renewed by water, and that this water is the Spirit who cleanseth us anew and who, by spreading his energy over us, imparts to us the rigor of the heavenly life, though by nature we are utterly dry. And most properly does Christ, in order to reprove Nicodemus for his ignorance, employ a form of expression which is common in Scripture; for Nicodemus ought at length to have acknowledged, that what Christ had said was taken from the ordinary doctrine of the Prophets.

By water, therefore, is meant nothing more than the inward purification and invigoration which is produced by the Holy Spirit. Besides, it is not unusual to employ the word and instead of that is, when the latter clause is intended to explain the former. And the view which I have taken is supported by what follows; for when Christ immediately proceeds to assign the reason why we must be born again, without mentioning the water, he shows that the newness of life which he requires is produced by the Spirit alone; whence it follows, that water must not be separated from the Spirit

6. That which is born of the flesh. By reasoning from contraries, he argues that the kingdom of God is shut against us, unless an entrance be opened to us by a new birth, (palingenesia ) For he takes for granted, that we cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless we are spiritual. But we bring nothing from the womb but a carnal nature. Therefore it follows, that we are naturally banished from the kingdom of God, and, having been deprived of the heavenly life, remain under the yoke of death. Besides, when Christ argues here, that men must be born again, because they are only flesh, he undoubtedly comprehends all mankind under the term flesh. By the flesh, therefore, is meant in this place not the body, but the soul also, and consequently every part of it. When the Popish divines restrict the word to that part which they call sensual, they do so in utter ignorance of its meaning; [59] for Christ must in that case have used an inconclusive argument, that we need a second birth, because part of us is corrupt. But if the flesh is contrasted with the Spirit, as a corrupt thing is contrasted with what is uncorrupted, a crooked thing with what is straight, a polluted thing with what is holy, a contaminated thing with what is pure, we may readily conclude that the whole nature of man is condemned by a single word. Christ therefore declares that our understanding and reason is corrupted, because it is carnal, and that all the affections of the heart are wicked and reprobate, because they too are carnal.

But here it may be objected, that since the soul is not begotten by human generation, we are not born of the flesh, as to the chief part of our nature. This led many persons to imagine that not only our bodies, but our souls also, descend to us from our parents; for they thought it absurd that original sin, which has its peculiar habitation in the soul, should be conveyed from one man to all his posterity, unless all our souls proceeded from his soul as their source. And certainly, at first sight, the words of Christ appear to convey the idea, that we are flesh, because we are born of flesh. I answer, so far as relates to the words of Christ, they mean nothing else than that we are all carnal when we are born; and that as we come into this world mortal men, our nature relishes nothing but what is flesh. He simply distinguishes here between nature and the supernatural gift; for the corruption of all mankind in the person of Adam alone did not proceed from generation, but from the appointment of God, who in one man had adorned us all, and who has in him also deprived us of his gifts. Instead of saying, therefore, that each of us draws vice and corruption from his parents, it would be more correct to say that we are all alike corrupted in Adam alone, because immediately after his revolt God took away from human nature what He had bestowed upon it.

Here another question arises; for it is certain that in this degenerate and corrupted nature some remnant of the gifts of God still lingers; and hence it follows that we are not in every respect corrupted. The reply is easy. The gifts which God hath left to us since the fall, if they are judged by themselves, are indeed worthy of praise; but as the contagion of wickedness is spread through every part, there will be found in us nothing that is pure and free from every defilement. That we naturally possess some knowledge of God, that some distinction between good and evil is engraven on our conscience, that our faculties are sufficient for the maintenance of the present life, that -- in short -- we are in so many ways superior to the brute beasts, that is excellent in itself, so far as it proceeds from God; but in us all these things are completely polluted, in the same manner as the wine which has been wholly infected and corrupted by the offensive taste of the vessel loses the pleasantness of its good flavor, and acquires a bitter and pernicious taste. For such knowledge of God as now remains in men is nothing else than a frightful source of idolatry and of all superstitions; the judgment exercised in choosing and distinguishing things is partly blind and foolish, partly imperfect and confused; all the industry that we possess flows into vanity and trifles; and the will itself, with furious impetuosity, rushes headlong to what is evil. Thus in the whole of our nature there remains not a drop of uprightness. Hence it is evident that we must be formed by the second birth, that we may be fitted for the kingdom of God; and the meaning of Christ's words is, that as a man is born only carnal from the womb of his mother; he must be formed anew by the Spirit, that he may begin to be spiritual.

The word Spirit is used here in two senses, namely, for grace, and the effect of grace. For in the first place, Christ informs us that the Spirit of God is the only Author of a pure and upright nature, and afterwards he states, that we are spiritual, because we have been renewed by his power.
So, I hope you and others can see I do not follow men, even though I may have great respect for them in many areas and their overall beliefs. I was convinced concerning John three we would differ and we surely do. That being said, I do not consider myself worthy of such men, for they lived in different times fighting different battles. Martin Luther and John Calvin paved the path for us to free the church from RCC/EOC, and others. They got us started out on the right path, we just come along and understood some things more perfectly, some less, together, overcome the evil one.

Offline 4WD

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4WD, you have made a correct point: "Whatever you think Jesus' reasoning there in "mentioning" water is moot."Yes, indeed it is moot because water would have never have been mentioned if Nicodemus had not brought up the question:
Absolutely untrue.  In fact He made "water and Spirit" the means of being born again:  "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That is what Jesus said.  You can deny what he said all you want, but you cannot change it.  Nor can you offer your ridiculous analysis of His reason for doing so.  But of course you must, because that direct statement and the one immediately following in verse 5 is a direct rebuttal to your entirely false soteriology.
4WD, water has not one thing to do with being born again, not one thing.
Jesus said it did.  You don't like that, but the simple truth is that Jesus declared that born of "water and Spirit" were necessary.
Quote from: RB link=topic=111787.msg1055206451#msg1055206451 date=1665224113[size=10pt
Your theology goes into the face of the Son of God, who clearly said "that which is born of the flesh IS FLESH!" and we gave verses when asked by Rella, what does it mean to be born of flesh. In short, to be born OF FLESH is to be born in sin and trespasses through Adam! The flesh is sinful, and at enmity against God, the flesh is not subject to the word of God, and indeed CANNOT BE, per Paul in Romans 8. [/size]
Paul is not saying here that the flesh of a human being is inherently sinful or evil. Paul would not mimic the dualistic philosophies such as Gnostics taught. The human being from the outset beginning with Adam and Eve has a tendency toward sinning.  But the tendency to sin is not sin; rather it is the very act of sinning that is sin.  The desire that Eve felt in realizing that the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil "was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise", was not sin; it was not sinful.  The sin was in Eve's responding to that desire and eating the fruit in disobedience to God's command.  Paul, in Romans 8, is alluding to his consistent teaching in this context that the human body has come under the power of sin and remains so to some extent even for Christians.  It is sinful flesh, because in the flesh is the human tendency to commit sin in disobedience to the law of God.  So then, what did Paul mean by saying that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh?  He came in real flesh; His body was fully human in the truest sense. It was in every way what a human body was supposed to be; but He never disobeyed any law of God as does every human being eventually in one way or the other.  As the author of Hebrews say, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin" (Heb 4:15).His flesh was no different. He was tempted just as we are.  His tendency to sin was there just as is ours; but where we fail in disobedience and sin, Jesus did not fail, He did not disobey; He did not sin.
Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet apart from Adam's posterity, by having God as his Father. The virgin birth is so important as Jesus was NOT conceived THROUGH Adam's generation, but by the power of the Highest!
Jesus was conceived in Mary, who was conceived THROUGH Adam's posterity, Therefore Jesus was conceived THROUGH Adam's posterity. Your concept that He was not is a false construct that you need to satisfy your false beliefs.
All born of flesh through Adam are sinners FroM CONCEPTION~just because your religion will not accept this truth, does not make it not to be true, for IT IS. Ask yourself, WHY was it imperative for Jesus to be conceived by God, and NOT through Adam's posterity? By doing so, he was HOLY from conception ON until he died as a perfect sacrifice for our sins~ otherwise, he could not have been that Lamb WITHOUT spot/sin.
Pure Horse Hockey.

Offline 4WD

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RB, two things here with respect to your replies #53 and #54.  One I really don't care what Calvin's take was on John 3:5,6.  If it involves soteriology, Calvin was wrong.  Why? Because his soteriology was driven by his belief in Total Depravity.

Second, there is nothing unrighteous about God's commanding the physical killing of innocent beings. Bad things happen to good people all the time, some at God's doing.  Being innocent, they were rightly accepted into eternal life. Your concept about such things would have all those killed in abortions committed to eternal condemnation.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 08, 2022 - 06:42:19 by 4WD »

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Why?  Water is strongly associated with birth both in nature and throughout the Bible.  A baby is born when the mother's "water breaks."  In Genesis 1, everything is created from "waters." 

Indeed, the reason that baptism is an adoption is that it pictures the adoptee being born anew by coming out of water.

Jarrod

I lean towards this understanding. Water is used symbolically as "influence" in many instances, which if one remains submerged, will destroy them. Noah was Baptized in a manner, by the great flood and rose from this influence, while those who didn't believe God perished. The Scriptures even use the Symbol of a Dove in Christ's baptism. He had been raised in the influence of a religion which destroyed all who remained in it. But was faithful to God as was Noah. " And straightway coming up out of the water", he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove (who can not live in water) descending upon him"

We are all born in this same water/influence and must be "born again" above the influence of this world.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Matt. 3: 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Remember, if a man doesn't come up out of the water, they drowned by it's influence.

Fascinating study, great topic.











Offline 4WD

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GIGGLE, GIGGLE! ! !

Offline Rella

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I lean towards this understanding. Water is used symbolically as "influence" in many instances, which if one remains submerged, will destroy them. Noah was Baptized in a manner, by the great flood and rose from this influence, while those who didn't believe God perished. The Scriptures even use the Symbol of a Dove in Christ's baptism. He had been raised in the influence of a religion which destroyed all who remained in it. But was faithful to God as was Noah. " And straightway coming up out of the water", he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove (who can not live in water) descending upon him"

We are all born in this same water/influence and must be "born again" above the influence of this world.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Matt. 3: 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Remember, if a man doesn't come up out of the water, they drowned by it's influence.

Fascinating study, great topic.

So can you tie of John 3:6 Greek to a water baptism?

John 3:6  That having been born of the flesh flesh is and that having been born of the Spirit spirit is

( As I I understand this to mean that)

That having been born of the flesh ( a human mother) flesh is (a human being) and that having been born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit from above) spirt is ( the human spirit)

Offline yogi bear

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Just a question.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the new birth;
What is meant by being born of the spirit?
How is one born of the spirit?
Please provide scripture to back your answer.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 08, 2022 - 22:03:16 by yogi bear »

Offline RB

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RB, two things here with respect to your replies #53 and #54.  One I really don't care what Calvin's take was on John 3:5,6.  If it involves soteriology, Calvin was wrong.  Why? Because his soteriology was driven by his belief in Total Depravity.

Second, there is nothing unrighteous about God's commanding the physical killing of innocent beings. Bad things happen to good people all the time, some at God's doing.  Being innocent, they were rightly accepted into eternal life. Your concept about such things would have all those killed in abortions committed to eternal condemnation.


The only reason I quoted John Calvin was that you accused me of following him, and reading his understanding of John 3:5,6, proves we differ. I really do not care what any man teaches, including Calvin and Luther, who I DO admire very much for many good causes they stood for the truth.

Man without the Spirit of God leading them is the cause of so much confusion in this world, and your teaching on this truth, only adds more confusion~so there.

GB's post even added more! No pun intended, but truth is truth, and we must speak out against error.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 09, 2022 - 05:26:57 by RB »

Offline RB

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That having been born of the flesh ( a human mother) flesh is (a human being) and that having been born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit from above) spirt is ( the human spirit)

"That having been born of the flesh ( a human mother) flesh is (a human being)"....Agree

"that having been born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit from above) spirit is ( the human spirit)."......Please read my post coming next to yogi,
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 09, 2022 - 05:24:10 by RB »

Offline yogi bear

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In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John we see the teaching of John preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins for the kingdom  of heaven is at hand followed by "And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

This is the teaching of the coming kingdom and how God set in motion for one to enter. Even then it was rejected by the Pharisees and Sadducees of which Nicodemus was one of.

The spirit was not yet given because Christ had not yet been glorified but was promised to come at that time. After the death burial and resurrection this transition was complete and the great commission was given as the means to enter into the kingdom (see Acts 2:38).

Therefore Nicodemus would have understood that the born of water was the same teaching of John that he rejected he may not understood the giving of the spirit but he was aware of the water baptism that Jesus, John, and the twelve disciples were preaching round about Jordan.

Just as the Pharisees and Sadducees rejected the teaching on baptism back then we have many in this time doing the same. They understand Jesus commands water baptism but refuse to accept the teaching as what it is for.

I hope You know the scriptures well enough that I do not need to post them, this is elementary from the beginning of the gospel of Christ.

Just my short summary on this topic.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 09, 2022 - 07:48:42 by yogi bear »

Offline 4WD

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Just a question.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the new birth;
What is meant by being born of the spirit?
How is one born of the spirit?
Please provide scripture to back your answer.


A very interesting and a very important question. First permit me to correct you on one little, but important, point.  It is not born of the spirit; rather it is born of the Spirit.  The spirit of man is born and reborn, i.e., born again, of the Spirit.

Jesus, in speaking of being born of water and spirit, is in John 3 speaking specifically of being born again.  Some argue that the word again in verses 3 and 7 comes from the Greek word ἄνωθεν [anōthen] meaning "from above". There is some truth to that.  Stong's says that it means "from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top".  Thayer says, 1) from above, from a higher place 1a) of things which come from heaven or God 2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first 3) anew, over again. So indeed, I believe that the connotation of from above must be considered.  But also, it is important to note that Nicodemus' question in verse 4 means that he took Jesus words to mean "again", that is, "a second time".  Nicodemus explained his question of "a second time" buy elaborating about entering a second time into his mother's womb.

We note that Jesus did not correct him immediately, but simply went a little deeper in what he meant by the phrase "born again".  He began by saying that one must be born of water and Spirit. And then He added the important distinction between born of flesh and born of Spirit.  Keep in mind here that Jesus has, by implication of verses 3 and 5, defined "born again" to be the same as "born of water and Spirit". He has also, by implication of verse 3 and 5, defined "see the kingdom" to be the same as "enter the kingdom".

In verse six, Jesus begins to correct Nicodemus' response about a man entering a second time into his mother's womb and being born. He does so by pointing out that whatever if born of flesh is flesh and whatever is born of Spirit is spirit.  He is telling Nicodemus that entering or seeing the kingdom is not about the flesh of the human being, rather it is about the spirit of the human being. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that He is not talking about being born physically a second time; instead, He is talking about being born spiritually a second time.  And being born spiritually a second fime, like being born spiritually the first time, is by Spirit, not by flesh.

When a human being is born, the body, the flesh, of the child is the result of the union of the father and mother. In other words, that which is born of flesh is flesh. Not so the spirit of the child.  Jesus says the spirit is from God.  In other words, that which is born of Spirit is spirit.  That is right in line with what we read in God's word in Zechariah and Ecclesiastes and, I believe, in Genesis also.  In Zechariah we read that the LORD "stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him" (12:1).  In Ecclesiastes we read that in death "the spirit returns to God who gave it" (12:7). In Genesis we read that "God created man in his own image" (1:27; 9:6). I think it is obvious that this can only mean that it is the spirit of man is created, made, in the image of God.  For God says that He formed the body, the flesh, of man from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7, 3:19; Eccl 12:7)

Thus Jesus, in John 3, has made it clear to Nicodemus that it is the spirit of man that must be reborn, born again, born from above. Why again? If the spirit of man was born, formed, created, made by God, then why would it need to be reborn, reformed, recreated, remade by God?  Obviously, something happened to the spirit to need a rebirth. Somewhere along the line, something happened. Paul describes that something that happens.  He talked about that in the context of the law and its effect on his own life.  He says about the law and the commandment of God which he said is "holy and righteous and good" (Rom 7:12) that "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died" (Rom 7:10).  What died? Not the flesh, the body. Clearly it was his spirit that died.

That was also Paul's message in Ephesians 2 also when he talked of being dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).  And he talked there about God, being rich in mercy because of the great love he had for us, made us alive together with Christ. (Eph 2:4,5). And there we have "born again", The spirit, born once, became dead in trespasses and sins and then must be born again, i.e., made alive together with Christ.  In doing so, God says "by grace you have been saved" (Eph 2:6).

Thus, yogi bear, that is what it means to be born again of the Spirit.  With that I think you know what my answer is to your question of How is one born of the Spirit.  But that is a separate question.  If you would like me to continue with that, I can.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 09, 2022 - 08:52:14 by 4WD »

Offline yogi bear

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Very good response 4WD thank you for that response and no I need you not go further in responding on  how one is born of the Spirit for I already know and agree with what your response will be. Thank you for your response.

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Just a question.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In the new birth;
What is meant by being born of the spirit?
How is one born of the spirit?
Please provide scripture to back your answer.
Yogi, I made a post earlier this morning to this post, worked on it for about an hour and a half, and then lost it! I did not get mad, but it was very sad seeing the work just vanish away in a spilt second.  I just said, oh well, maybe the Lord wanted me to redo it, so I will by answering 4WD's post.

So, I going to address 4WD's post later and by doing so, will answer yours as well.

Offline yogi bear

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RB, I know the frustration that brings when you work hard on an reply then it gets lost in posting it been there done that many a time sorry for your loss but will be waiting to hear your response to 4WD's reply

Offline RB

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In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John we see the teaching of John preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins for the kingdom  of heaven is at hand followed by "And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8 I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

This is the teaching of the coming kingdom and how God set in motion for one to enter.
I decided to address both your post and 4WD, in addressing 4WD, I also will cover your questions in your first post.

Yogi, we must point out your misunderstanding of John's message of baptism, your points of the coming kingdom, and how God set in motion for one to enter.

First, John did indeed preach baptism for the remission of sins~meaning of for is because of. How do we know this, by reading all accounts of John's preaching?
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST whom we follow, not some sect who exalts their doctrine over the word of God, which always robs Christ of his glory
Matthew 3:2-7~"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
When we read CONTEXT and THEN COMPARE with all scripture it is clear, that those who accepted John's baptism from God, were those warned of God and who also BROUGHT FORTH FRUITS worthy of true repentance. In other words, John only baptized BELIEVERS who had repented of their sins, which only those ALREADY BORN OF GOD can do! You and others do greatly error not knowing how to divide the word of God rightly, but approach God's words to only support your own doctrine which you have accepted, a doctrine that has another gospel as its headstone, where man is his own saviour by doing certain works in order to be born again, when the scriptures clearly teaches that the new birth is TOTALLY of God apart from the will of man....meaning preachers bring the gospel~and the will of the flesh...meaning our ability to chose between righteousness, and evil, which when giving a choice to man unregenerated he will  always chose evil, for that is what flesh LOVES over righteousness, not sometimes, but ALWAYS when the choice presents itself to fallen man.

Secondly, the kingdom of God was already in the world, only now ITS KING was present, so in this sense, it has come, yet overall rejected both the kingdom and its king.
Quote from: John the apostle whom Jesus loved
John 1:10-13~"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Those that received Christ, it was GIVEN to them to do so, by God. They were ALREADY in the kingdom translated by the power of God.
Quote from: HOLY GHOST
Luke 17:20,21~And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
You believe lo here and lo there, IT CAME ON PENTECOST, but no sir, it has always been a kingdom of God on earth, where ever there is present two or three meeting in the name of the God of heaven, or in Jesus' name, THERE the kingdom of God/heaven IS. There are folks who love and submit themselves unto the word of God and who walk by faith in the scriptures...THIS IS GOD"S KINGDOM on earth.

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"............. God's kingdom was WITHIN THEM...or, THEIR VERY MIST, yet they perceived it NOT. Btw, THE KING was also there and they killed him. The kingdom of God did not come on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came as an ever-present Comforter and Teacher on those in the present kingdom~ invisible to the eyes of men, yet known of God and beloved by Him.

Let me go and war with another prince called 4WD... RB
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 09, 2022 - 15:00:56 by RB »

Offline RB

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RB, I know the frustration that brings when you work hard on an reply then it gets lost in posting it been there done that many a time sorry for your loss but will be waiting to hear your response to 4WD's reply
Yes, I know it's subject to happen when we do not hit the save button on longer post~not necessarily long, but thinking as we type takes time, at least for me. I do not just type off any thoughts that rolls off of my head, but I labor to make them as least offensive and scriptures as I can. I try hard to keep my flesh out of my post to others, not always easy, but I'm sure others can say the same thing.