Author Topic: Calvinism  (Read 3152 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4437
  • Manna: 96
  • Gender: Male
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #35 on: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 12:54:27 »
RB:

    "...then the church MUST MOVE ON to stronger meat of the word of God, and stop wasting precious time of feeding people milk of the word~ Especially so older profess believers."

    But your problem, my brother, as I see it, is that you are trying to feed us contaminated milk - milk that has soured. 4WD is doing an excellent job addressing this matter. I strongly urge you to drink the milk or consume the meat he is offering.

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

  • SuperFree, Board "Former", Senator of GCM, Ethical Dissenter "All 8 Symptoms" Chief Justice! "Radical Political Conservative" Certified Resident Board Genius, it is...Directly. Observable. The Man, The Myth, The Legend!
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13572
  • Manna: 416
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #36 on: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:05:32 »
RB:

    "...then the church MUST MOVE ON to stronger meat of the word of God, and stop wasting precious time of feeding people milk of the word~ Especially so older profess believers."

    But your problem, my brother, as I see it, is that you are trying to feed us contaminated milk - milk that has soured. 4WD is doing an excellent job addressing this matter. I strongly urge you to drink the milk or consume the meat he is offering.

Buff

Buff,

If you want to debate with RB, why don't you just do it instead of hiding behind 4WD?

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #37 on: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 14:55:39 »
Buff,

If you want to debate with RB, why don't you just do it instead of hiding behind 4WD?
You know and I know why. I reckon I need to take his little security blanket away from him~when I answer 4WD tomorrow~the Lord willing.

One thing about 4WD, right or wrong he's not stepping down or backing up for fear of not having something to answer~I can appreciate that much more than someone acting as though they have answers when someone else is in the middle of the fight.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #38 on: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 04:43:17 »
I think I understand what the problem is here;
No sir, you do not.
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
it seems that you are being confused by the KJV and its usage of old English.
You know why I know you are so wrong? First and for most, I read behind men before there was ever a KJV of the word of God and they say word for word what the KJV said! Do not believe me, read behind them for yourself. Your rejection of the word of God in the KJV is nothing new~our forefathers heard the same vain jangling. For proof go here: http://www.supralapsarian.com/PDF%20Files/Samuel%20Richardson%20%7B1602-1658%7D.pdf and read here: Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture written five hundred years ago! Wonder what they would think of these days which have overtaken the professing Churches throughout this world. Such pity!
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
You are interpreting the phrase "for that all have sinned" as "because of that all have sinned", i.e., because of sin entering the world by one man and death by sin. Interpreted in that manner, I can understand how you might come to the conclusion you do; however, you are simply wrong and other English versions such as ESV, NASB, NKJV, etc. get it right.

ESV Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

NASB Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

NKJV Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

In these, the meaning is clear and it is not has you contend.  That death spread to all men is simply because all men sinned.  There is nothing there to suggest as you would have it that death spread to all men by the sin of the one man Adam. The only thing here due to Adam is sin and spiritual death entering the world.
4WD, I labored at great length here: Reply #22 RB on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26 so no need to do it again you can take what I said and this prove "IF" you think you can but you just cannot bypassed it and begin to present your own view without at least addressing what I said and in the process prove you position by proving my wrong~that's how deabtes work and you are wise enough to know this.
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
I have just shown you why your analysis of that verse is wrong.
So far you have not. You never addressed this:
Quote from: RB Reply #22 RB on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26
The adverb construction of “as … so” indicates “in this manner” sin and death came upon all men, by the one man Adam and his one sin in Eden. All men have sinned by imputation of Adam’s sin.
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
Once again you go to Romans 5:18-19 and come away with the completely wrong conclusion.  You always appeal to the first half of those two verses but fail completely to understand what Paul is actually saying there.  The point of his argument is NOT in the first half but in the second half.  Paul's point is NOT so much what happened as a result of Adam's disobedience, but rather what happened as a result of Jesus' obedience. That is the whole point of the "as - so" construction.  Were it not for the obedience of the one man, Jesus, the all humanity would be left with the results of the disobedience of the one man, Adam.
No, I appeal to BOTH~knowing the second half explains perfectly FREE JUSTIFICATION SECURED by Christ for his body, or those he stood as a representative of. You said: "That is the whole point of the "as - so" construction"~which I fully agree with~only I believe as Paul taught men were not just put into a position of becoming sinners through their connection with Adam, but actually were made sinners by Adam's disobedience! Men did not just have the possibility of becoming righteous through Jesus' obedience but were actually legally justified by Jesus' life of obedience! This is the message of headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. Zachariah 4:7
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
But Jesus did obey.  He came to earth as a human being, lived and died on the cross. The result of that was "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (KJV v.18) What does this mean?  Is this a statement of the universality of salvation?  No, it doesn't mean that.  You and nearly everyone else interprets the effect of Adam's disobedience to mean that man comes into this world with the sin of Adam charged to them, i.e., original sin.
4WD~the free gift of righteousness and eternal life is given to ALL that Jesus became a surety for by being part of the election of grace according to the will of God~per Ephesians 1:3-11.
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
But what Paul is saying here is that instead man comes into this world with the righteousness of Jesus charged to them.
4WD, I honestly cannot make out what you are trying to say, since there are no scriptures even with seemly sound bites to support what you are attempting to say.

Are you saying what I think you are saying~that every person comes into the world with Jesus' righteousness ON THER ACCOUNT BEFORE GOD? If so, then that's a first for me and SO FAR from the truth! So, according to your bizarre and corrupt reasoning (and corrupt reasoning it IS) men are born righteous and later ALL become sinners, or maybe some come and die righteous?????
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
We did not all sin "in Adam by representation".  God did not, does not and would not impute Adam's sin to anyone else. I would go so far as to say that in His righteousness, in His graciousness, in His holiness, He could not impute Adam's sin to anyone else.
So dear sir, are dead wrong and by making such an anti-scriptural statement, shows me you do not understand how the free gift comes to sinners.  

By God making the first Adam a federal head of his race and their representative before God, is not only wise but merciful~Adam possess no sinful nature, he had no nature that was at enmity against God, he had the power to overcome temptation since there was NO LUST working in him to keep him from obeying~he was given every natural means to live a life free of sin, and was given only ONE COMMANDMENT to obey~the only thing he did not have was God securing him from sinning and in the state in which he was created. His sin proved one great truth~God alone is immutable, no angel or man is so by being created! That attribute belongs to God alone.
Quote from: 4WD #34 on: Yesterday at 07:56:00
I will add one other thing here that is very important.  We are born righteous, that is, our spirits as formed in us by God (Zech 12:1) are not dead in sin but rather are alive in righteousness. 
So, I DID understand what you were attempting to say~well, now, by your statement you are going against every prophet, apostle, and Jesus Christ's teachings and the testimony of God himself.

You giving Zechariah 12:1 as a reference to prove God created every spirit in man righteous is a desperate act to prove your doctrine~you are reading something into that one scripture that will not support what you so strongly desire it to teach.

When God created Adam he breathe into Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living soul~his spirit was given directly by God~spirit is connected to taking breath into one's being~what all that entails we truly do not know, at least I do not~we know little of the conception of a human being, or an animal as far as that goes. God does not attend each conception and produces a spirit each time~the mystery of conception of its own produces LIFE after its OWN KIND~with humans it is a flesh and blood body that is the highest of God's creation but sadly is born without any knowledge of SPIRITUAL TRUTH, unless one is born again in the womb of a woman as John the Baptist was.  To prove this just give it a few weeks and it will prove to you just how deceitful their little hearts are!

Enough for now. RB

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Calvinism
« Reply #38 on: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 04:43:17 »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #39 on: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33 »
No sir, you do not.You know why I know you are so wrong? First and for most, I read behind men before there was ever a KJV of the word of God and they say word for word what the KJV said!
I didn't say the KJV was wrong.  I said you misunderstood what the KJV meant.  The phrase, "for that" in the old English in this construction carries the same meaning as "for" or "since" or "because". In such constructions, the word "that" in the old English is not referencing back to anything as you would interpret it.  We see that similar old English usage in Luke 4:6; John 12:18;Acts 4:16; 2 Corinthians 5:4;1 Timothy 1:12 Hebrews 5:2and 7:15, There are probably other examples but those are the more obvious ones. Again in Romans 5:12, that same construction appears and the meaning is quite clear; "death spread to all men because all men sinned". There is absolutely no intended suggestion that, as you claim, that "all men have sinned by imputation of Adam's sin".
Quote from: RB
Do not believe me, read behind them for yourself. Your rejection of the word of God in the KJV is nothing new~our forefathers heard the same vain jangling.
As I said, RB, I haven't reject the word of God in the KJV in this instance.  I have rejected your interpretation of the old English usage of the phrase, "for that" in Romans 5:12.
Quote from: RB
For proof go here: http://www.supralapsarian.com/PDF%20Files/Samuel%20Richardson%20%7B1602-1658%7D.pdf and read
Richardson, was born and lived in the first half of the 17th century.  My guess is that he would, if he could, tell you exactly what I have just said.
Quote from: RB
Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture written five hundred years ago!
I am sorry, RB, but that is a really stupid statement.  Where do you think the Holy Scripture written in [old] English five hundred years ago came from?  It came from translation of the Greek and Hebrew copies of the Holy Scriptures by men who were versed in the Greek and Hebrew language of God's word.  Are you so welded to the KJV that you would think that those translators who lived 500 years ago knew the Greek and Hebrew better than scholars of today? There is absolutely nothing that would even suggest that. In fact we have more and better manuscripts in the  original languages than they had 500 hundred years ago.
Quote from: RB
Wonder what they would think of these days which have overtaken the professing Churches throughout this world. Such pity!
Whatever has overtaken the professing Churches throughout this world have nothing whatsoever to do with using the Scriptures written in modern English as apposed to those written in old English.
Quote from: RB
4WD, I labored at great length here: Reply #22 RB on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26 so no need to do it again you can take what I said and this prove "IF" you think you can but you just cannot bypassed it and begin to present your own view without at least addressing what I said and in the process prove you position by proving my wrong~that's how deabtes work and you are wise enough to know this.
I didn't bypass any thing.  I told you what the intended meaning was for Romans 5:12.  I have here shown you again why your interpretation is wrong.
Quote from: RB
No, I appeal to BOTH~knowing the second half explains perfectly FREE JUSTIFICATION SECURED by Christ for his body, or those he stood as a representative of. You said: "That is the whole point of the "as - so" construction"~which I fully agree with~only I believe as Paul taught men were not just put into a position of becoming sinners through their connection with Adam, but actually were made sinners by Adam's disobedience!
Only in your misinterpretation could you come to that conclusion. And in doing so, you ascribe to God, the very same sort of injustice that He holds against us.  Never would He condone us to accuse and convict , in court, someone for another's crime. The very concept is anathema. He wouldn't condone such a thing and He would do such a thing.
Quote from: RB
Men did not just have the possibility of becoming righteous through Jesus' obedience but were actually legally justified by Jesus' life of obedience!
You really like to use that phrase, "legally justified".  I am not sure why you like it.  Justification is a legal term; it is a legal act. It means to declare righteous. It is strictly a declaration by God concerning the standing before God of the one justified.
Quote from: RB
4WD~the free gift of righteousness and eternal life is given to ALL that Jesus became a surety for by being part of the election of grace according to the will of God~per Ephesians 1:3-11.
As I have noted before, the passage, Romans 5:12-19, is not about the effect of the obedience of Jesus upon the sinner.  You have highlighted the "so -- as" construction.  I would agree with that in verses 12-19 also. It is particularly apparent in verse 18 and 19.  The "so" part relates to the effect of Adam's disobedience upon all men.  Now we, I think all agree, that effect is upon the unborn or the just born. The "so -- as" construction then demands that the effect of Jesus' obedience follows.  That is, the "as" part relates to the effect of Jesus obedience upon all men.  And since the effect of Adam's disobedience is upon the unborn or the just born, then similarly the effect of Jesus' obedience is upon the unborn or the just born.   This fact is emphasized in verse 15 which tells us that the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the whole of humanity was much more than the effect of Adam's disobedience upon the whole of humanity.  This has to be, because the "all men" in verse 18 effected by Adam's disobedience MUST BE the same "all men" effected by Jesus' obedience; and "the many" made sinners in verse 19 MUST BE the same "the many" made righteous.  None of this has to do with the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the believer. Paul addresses that immediately following Romans 5 in Romans 6; actually, I consider that begins with verse 20 in chapter 5.

Quote from: RB
Are you saying what I think you are saying~that every person comes into the world with Jesus' righteousness ON THER ACCOUNT BEFORE GOD? If so, then that's a first for me and SO FAR from the truth! So, according to your bizarre and corrupt reasoning (and corrupt reasoning it IS) men are born righteous and later ALL become sinners, or maybe some come and die righteous????? So dear sir, are dead wrong and by making such an anti-scriptural statement, shows me you do not understand how the free gift comes to sinners.  
That is exactly what I am saying.  The spirit that each of us receive from God is not dead.  God simply would not do that.  That you think God would form dead spirits in each of us is a bizarre and corrupt reasoning. I realize that is first for you. And that because you are engulfed in the mire of Calvinism with its Total Depravity corruption.  But as I said, Romans 5:12-19 is not about how the free gift comes to sinners.  It is about how each child comes into this world.

How the free gift comes to sinners is present in the verses following, namely, chapter 6:

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Rom 5:20-6:4)

Quote from: RB
You giving Zechariah 12:1 as a reference to prove God created every spirit in man righteous is a desperate act to prove your doctrine~you are reading something into that one scripture that will not support what you so strongly desire it to teach.
I am just reading what it says. You would try to say that God formed the spirit of man only in Adam and the spirits of all men after Adam come from their parents. Now that is reading something into that one scripture what is simply not there.
Quote from: RB
When God created Adam he breathe into Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living soul~his spirit was given directly by God~spirit is connected to taking breath into one's being~what all that entails we truly do not know, at least I do not~we know little of the conception of a human being, or an animal as far as that goes. God does not attend each conception and produces a spirit each time
You say that God does not attend each conception and produces a spirit each time.  Why not?  Is that quite beyond God?  I think not.  That you would think it so, clearly shows you lack of recognizing the true power of God. He hears the chirp of every bird, the howl of every wolf, the prayer of every one who prays and that all at the same time.  Is it so much for you to think that He attends every birth of the human child?  Surely not.

Quote from: RB
~the mystery of conception of its own produces LIFE after its OWN KIND~with humans it is a flesh and blood body that is the highest of God's creation but sadly is born without any knowledge of SPIRITUAL TRUTH, unless one is born again in the womb of a woman as John the Baptist was.  To prove this just give it a few weeks and it will prove to you just how deceitful their little hearts are!
What we know about conception is only that it is a physical thing.  There is nothing in the field of science or theology that would attribute anything more that the physical to conception. There is no way in which to assume or conclude that the physical act of procreation could produce a spiritual element to the child. And as a matter of truth, Jesus declared that it could not: John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  The spirit of man comes, not from flesh, but from the Spirit, i.e., from God.

And here again, you confuse the work of empowering by the Holy Spirit with the work of indwelling by the Holy Spirit. They are not the same work of the Holy Spirit; moreover, they are not even directly related. Balaam's donkey was empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak; it certainly was not indwelled by the Holy Spirit.  John the Baptist was empowered by the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb.  There is no indication that he was indwelled by the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb. There is no indication that the work of indwelling by the Holy Spirit ever occurred before the inauguration of the New Covenant at Pentecost.

Furthermore, all men are born without any knowledge of anything, spiritual truth or otherwise. They are born with some limited instincts, but even there far less generally than most of the rest of the animal kingdom.  Knowledge, spiritual and otherwise, must be acquired as the child grows. Spiritual knowledge leading to faith, comes by hearing the word about Christ (Romans 10).
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:32:52 by 4WD »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Calvinism
« Reply #39 on: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33 »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #40 on: Sun Apr 03, 2022 - 07:49:08 »
I didn't say the KJV was wrong.  I said you misunderstood what the KJV meant. 
The sense I hold to and just about all before us up until the last hundred and fifty years~is, death passed upon all men even on them who had not sinned after Adam's transgression.
Quote
Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
The reason of introducing the persons referred to by the word even, implies that they are such persons as apparently ought to be excluded from the reign of sin and death. This cannot designate those who in any way know the law. But it can only applies to infants. No one will receive this except the man who, like a little child, submits to the testimony of God. Indeed, no man can understand the grounds of this imputation, so as to be able perfectly to justify it on principles applicable to human life. It must always stand, not on our ability to see its justice, but on our belief that God speaks true, and that it is just, as the Judge of all the earth in all things does justly, whether we are able to see it or not.

The word even supposes that the persons referred to are but a portion of those generally included in the declaration of the preceding clauses. These cannot be such as received not a positive law, for all, from Adam to Moses, are such; but it will apply to infants. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, over all the human race, even over infants, who did not actually sin, but sinned in Adam.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 09:18:33
Again in Romans 5:12, that same construction appears and the meaning is quite clear; "death spread to all men because all men sinned". There is absolutely no intended suggestion that, as you claim, that "all men have sinned by imputation of Adam's sin".
But it is by following the context of this discourse given by Paul. If it is not so according to you, then pray to tell me how does death pass on even an infant, who had never sinned after the similitude Adam's transgress, which sin was a deliberate disobedience to God's command. I'm not as you believe being misled by the wording of the KJV, for verse 14 proves that Adam acted on the behalf of his posterity, even as Jesus did for his chosen body~which we understand that Adam who is the figure of him that was to come...which figure is that BOTH acted as a federal head of their each posterity.

The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him. By his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death, and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, He is called the last Adam. If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is thus imputed to all those of whom He is the head, and is counted to them for their justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin.

In writing to those at Corinth, who were "sanctified in Christ Jesus," the Apostle wrote...,
Quote
1st Corinthians 15:47,48~"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly."
The information which the Scriptures testify to us of the sin of the first man, shows that it was a complete subversion of nature, and the establishment of the kingdom of Satan in the world; they also show us that the purpose of sending Jesus Christ into the world was to destroy the empire of Satan, sin, and death.  As the one is called the first man, the other is called the second, even the Lord from heaven. Now, as there were innumerable multitudes of men between the first man and Him, it is plain that He is called the second man for some very peculiar reason. And what else can that be, but because He is the representative and father of all His spiritual seed, as the first man was of all his natural seed? The one is the head, the federal head of the earthly men, the other of the heavenly. Since the one is called the second man, not because He was the second in the order of creation, but because He was the second public head, it follows that the other is called the first man not because he was first created, or in opposition to his descendants, but because he was the first public head in opposition to Christ the second.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #41 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 03:40:43 »
Richardson, was born and lived in the first half of the 17th century.  My guess is that he would, if he could, tell you exactly what I have just said.
You guessed wrong, 4WD. He's my favorite of all Baptists I have read behind when it comes to Christ being the federal representative of the elect~Adam being the figure of Christ, which figure could only be interpreted consisting in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him. Every reformer, Puritan, men of God in most denominations up until around the mid-nineteen century, preached this truth, now it is almost lost in the professing churches who have fallen away from the doctrines of Christ, per 2nd Thessalonians chapter two......so sad, but very true it's now happening right before our own eyes~not sure how much worse God will allow this to go on.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #39 on: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33
I am sorry, RB, but that is a really stupid statement.  Where do you think the Holy Scripture written in [old] English five hundred years ago came from?  It came from translation of the Greek and Hebrew copies of the Holy Scriptures by men who were versed in the Greek and Hebrew language of God's word.  Are you so welded to the KJV that you would think that those translators who lived 500 years ago knew the Greek and Hebrew better than scholars of today? There is absolutely nothing that would even suggest that. In fact we have more and better manuscripts in the  original languages than they had 500 hundred years ago.
Quote from: RB
You misunderstood what I was saying~I KNOW WE have a translation just as they did and just as Samuel Richardson was contending for but BOTH he and I are saying that NEITHER (men living then and men living now) did not need to prove their doctrine/teachings by going back to the original language in which the scriptures were first given in. Besides, no man has seen ANY originals since they were given to the churches, ALL saints in every age have trusted God to preserve his word just as he promised to do in such scriptures as Psalms 12 and other places in the OT and even in the NT~it is by faith we trust this. Men who are constantly seeking out "so-called originals writings" and the meaning of its words are guilty of being Idolatrous substitutes for understanding the Holy Scripture. We were not questioning the abilities of scholars in any generation, only once accomplish there is no need to constantly be doing this~we can do as Israel of old did take the same copies (translation) and rewrite them and give them to the priest. The only changes needed would be the spelling of a particular word as time changes, or the use of a particular word. But in less than two hundred years we do not need over two different translations of the Bible in one language that causes major confusion with most, but not with those men who trust God to ONCE deliver His word in our own language. Enough on this point.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #39 on: Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33
I didn't bypass any thing.  I told you what the intended meaning was for Romans 5:12.  I have here shown you again why your interpretation is wrong.
Well, you miserably failed in your attempt to push your work gospel by laboring hard to include man in his salvation from sin and condemnation. At least in my understanding, others must be convinced by their own study of the scriptures and come to see WHICH gospel most glorifies Jesus Christ and which most glorifies man. That's the litmus test all would use! This is what separates the goats from the sheep, we do not need to do so with any accusations toward others. They are good at doing so themselves by their words and actions.

I'll come back and finish later. RB

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #42 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 04:28:56 »
Only in your misinterpretation could you come to that conclusion. And in doing so, you ascribe to God, the very same sort of injustice that He holds against us.  Never would He condone us to accuse and convict , in court, someone for another's crime. The very concept is anathema. He wouldn't condone such a thing and He would do such a thing.
It is not my personal interpretation, and besides, no man could have ever come up with such a wise, equal, and righteous manner in which to give every man an equal opportunity for eternal life, as the manner in which the only wise God chose to do! God places Adam's posterity IN HIM~who God created VERY GOOD.
Quote from: MOSES
Genesis 1:27-31~"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
God created both Adam and his wife after His own image in righteousness, wisdom, and knowledge~mainly FREE OF A SINFUL NATURE. God's own testimony is that BEHOLD, it was very good~ So, why are you complaining and rejecting this wise plan of God of placing all of Adam's posterity IN HIM to see if Adam could earn eternal life by being obedient to his Creator with ONE simple commandment given to him?

Are you telling me that it would be much fairer for you to stand in your fallen nature which is at enmity against God? Well, you must think your plan is much wiser than God, or else, you would submit your proud spirit to His wise plan.
Quote from: 4WD 4WD on Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33
You really like to use that phrase, "legally justified".  I am not sure why you like it.  Justification is a legal term; it is a legal act. It means to declare righteous. It is strictly a declaration by God concerning the standing before God of the one justified.
It is a legal term, yet in the scriptures, God uses justification in different senses and it is our duty to expound the scriptures and GIVE the sense so that the people can understand.
Quote
Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Justification is used in a legal sense.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:25~Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
In the very next scripture it is use in a practical sense!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:1~"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"
"Therefore" goes back to the WHOLE fourth chapter where Paul teaches us that we lived under the system of faith where God's word and our faith in that wod brings an understanding of our justification to our conscience, spirit, heart, which in turns give PEACE to our souls! It is used in other senses as well, but time is precious and I have so little of it.
Quote from: 4WD on Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33
As I have noted before, the passage, Romans 5:12-19, is not about the effect of the obedience of Jesus upon the sinner.  You have highlighted the "so -- as" construction.  I would agree with that in verses 12-19 also. It is particularly apparent in verse 18 and 19.  The "so" part relates to the effect of Adam's disobedience upon all men.  Now we, I think all agree, that effect is upon the unborn or the just born. The "so -- as" construction then demands that the effect of Jesus' obedience follows.  That is, the "as" part relates to the effect of Jesus obedience upon all men.  And since the effect of Adam's disobedience is upon the unborn or the just born, then similarly the effect of Jesus' obedience is upon the unborn or the just born.   This fact is emphasized in verse 15 which tells us that the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the whole of humanity was much more than the effect of Adam's disobedience upon the whole of humanity.  This has to be, because the "all men" in verse 18 effected by Adam's disobedience MUST BE the same "all men" effected by Jesus' obedience; and "the many" made sinners in verse 19 MUST BE the same "the many" made righteous.  None of this has to do with the effect of Jesus' obedience upon the believer. Paul addresses that immediately following Romans 5 in Romans 6; actually, I consider that begins with verse 20 in chapter 5.
Later since this will take more space to answer properly.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 04:33:45 by RB »

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11915
  • Manna: 669
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #43 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 07:12:41 »
Quote from: 4WD on Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33
Only in your misinterpretation could you come to that conclusion. And in doing so, you ascribe to God, the very same sort of injustice that He holds against us.  Never would He condone us to accuse and convict , in court, someone for another's crime. The very concept is anathema. He wouldn't condone such a thing and He would do such a thing.

The sense I hold to and just about all before us up until the last hundred and fifty years~is, death passed upon all men even on them who had not sinned after Adam's transgression.
[/quote]

Well... Paul said they were wrong stating simply that

Romans 3:23

So you need to modify your post and re-state what you did.

While you are at it..

tell us, in your words, about what happened about 150 years ago that change peoples minds and why.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Calvinism
« Reply #43 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 07:12:41 »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #44 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 07:27:03 »
The sense I hold to and just about all before us up until the last hundred and fifty years~is, death passed upon all men even on them who had not sinned after Adam's transgression.


Well... Paul said they were wrong stating simply that

Romans 3:23
You need to read everything that has been said before making a comment and save yourself some embarrassment.
Quote from: RB on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26

All men will die by virtue of their relationship to Adam and his sin (5:14-19; Ist Corinthians 15:22).

It is a fact all men have sinned themselves, and it is a fact that the wages of every sin of every man is death, but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:12:41
tell us, in your words, about what happened about 150 years ago that change peoples minds and why
I'm leaving for some meetings and may answer this after I'm finished with answering 4WD.

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11915
  • Manna: 669
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #45 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 08:01:48 »
You need to read everything that has been said before making a comment and save yourself some embarrassment.I'm leaving for some meetings and may answer this after I'm finished with answering 4WD.

RB

Stick and stones... my friend. Sticks and stones  rofl rofl rofl

Would be so much easier reading your diatribes if you did not come off sounding like a Kenneth Sublett wannabe.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #46 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 08:20:50 »
Concering Romans 5:14 you said:
The reason of introducing the persons referred to by the word even, implies that they are such persons as apparently ought to be excluded from the reign of sin and death. This cannot designate those who in any way know the law. But it can only applies to infants.
Again you have missed the whole point of Paul's discussion here. But you are not alone in it.  Anyone who adheres to the false teaching of either original sin or Total Depravity will typically force much the same false teaching into verse 14.  First we must realize that it is not physical death that is being referred to here.  Physical death is not due to sin.  Too many read Romans 6:23 amd  interpret it to mean that we die physically because of sin.  That is simply not the case. Even Romans 6:23 establishes the contrast to be between "death" and "eternal life"; so clearly, death as the wages of sin is not physical death, but the death of eternal condemnation.  Therefore your attempt to infer verse 14 to infants is way off base.

So then, who is Paul talking about when he speaks of (ESV) "those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam"  [(KJV) "them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"]? Adam's transgression was in disobeying a command of God. The reason for Paul's reference to Moses can only be the law, the commands of God, that came from God through Moses. But almost from the very outset of Paul's letter to the Romans, he pointed out that there was sin whether or not there was a written ledger of commands available, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom 1:18-20)

Quote from: RB
No one will receive this except the man who, like a little child, submits to the testimony of God. Indeed, no man can understand the grounds of this imputation, so as to be able perfectly to justify it on principles applicable to human life. It must always stand, not on our ability to see its justice, but on our belief that God speaks true, and that it is just, as the Judge of all the earth in all things does justly, whether we are able to see it or not.
The only justice we know is justice expressed and displayed by God.  A false perception of God's actions and a belief that such actions present God speaking true does not make the false perception true.
Quote from: RB
Death reigned from Adam to Moses, over all the human race, even over infants, who did not actually sin, but sinned in Adam. But it is by following the context of this discourse given by Paul. If it is not so according to you, then pray to tell me how does death pass on even an infant, who had never sinned after the similitude Adam's transgress, which sin was a deliberate disobedience to God's command.
Yet, one more time.  Physical death is not the result of sin.  Physical death is an integral feature of this physical creation. Strictly speaking, Adam died spiritually when he sinned, just as you have acknowledged.  He died physically over hundred years later because he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life (Gen 3:22). 
Quote from: RB
The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.
The death in Adam and the life in Christ that is revealed in Romans chapter five has nothing to do with communication. It is simply a reality of the conditions of humanity. 

In your reference to 1 Corinthians 15:47-48 you said:
Quote from: RB
The information which the Scriptures testify to us of the sin of the first man, shows that it was a complete subversion of nature, and the establishment of the kingdom of Satan in the world;
There is absolutely nothing in that passage that says anything about any complete subversion of nature or the establishment of the kingdom of Satan in the world. The nature of God's creation is exactly as God created it.  No one, not even Satan, was given any power to subvert God's creation.
Quote from: RB
they also show us that the purpose of sending Jesus Christ into the world was to destroy the empire of Satan, sin, and death. 
Satan has no empire.  Jesus didn't destroy either sin or death, either physical death or spiritual death. Jesus did come to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8) We could go into what constitutes "works of the devil", but that isn't really a topic for this discussion.  The passage in Romans is not about works of the devil.
Quote from: RB
As the one is called the first man, the other is called the second, even the Lord from heaven. Now, as there were innumerable multitudes of men between the first man and Him, it is plain that He is called the second man for some very peculiar reason. And what else can that be, but because He is the representative and father of all His spiritual seed, as the first man was of all his natural seed? The one is the head, the federal head of the earthly men, the other of the heavenly. Since the one is called the second man, not because He was the second in the order of creation, but because He was the second public head, it follows that the other is called the first man not because he was first created, or in opposition to his descendants, but because he was the first public head in opposition to Christ the second
So much folderal about federal heads of this and that, none of which is presented in Romans 5.

That you insert such into the scriptures is only to provide some cover for your Calvinist subversion of God's grace.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #47 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 08:38:34 »
ALL saints in every age have trusted God to preserve his word just as he promised to do in such scriptures as Psalms 12 and other places in the OT and even in the NT~it is by faith we trust this. Men who are constantly seeking out "so-called originals writings" and the meaning of its words are guilty of being Idolatrous substitutes for understanding the Holy Scripture.
Then it must have been the case that the whole of Christendom from about the fourth century on until around the 16th century were fluent in Greek, Hebrew and Latin, the only languages for which the Scriptures were available.  But of course that was not true at all.  Most Christians in those thousand years were not fluent in any of those languages.

Your KJV-ONLY cultish behavior is the real Idolatrous Substitute for understanding the Holy Scripture.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 13:55:00 by 4WD »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #48 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 10:35:37 »
Then it must have been the case that the whole of Christendom from about the fourth century on until around the 16th century were fluent in Greek, Hebrew and Latin, the only languages for which the Scriptures were available.  But of course that was true at all.  Most Christians in those thousand years were not fluent in any of those languages.
::geek::  You forgot Syriac and Coptic.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #49 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 13:46:43 »
Would be so much easier reading your diatribes if you did not come off sounding like a Kenneth Sublett wannabe
That was no bitter attack~just making a true observation~you obviously did not read the back and forth words between 4WD and myself, for if you had, then you would not have said what you did. I meant nothing more than that.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 08:01:48
Would be so much easier reading your diatribes if you did not come off sounding like a Kenneth Sublett wannabe.
First of all, nothing mysterious about my statements/teachings, very plainly written~secondly, I have no clue about what you meant by your statement. I do not desire to be someone other than who God made me. I'm clearly not the type of a Chrisitan you desire to hear, and that's okay with me, for I will never change just to please others, or, to be accepted..... never. If that makes me your enemy so be it. You and I both will soon stand before God and give an account of our life as professed believers in Jesus Christ.  My conscience is void of offense before men and God.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 13:52:23 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #50 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 13:56:05 »
4WD~I will answer your post tomorrow, the Lord willing. RB

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #51 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 13:56:32 »
::geek::  You forgot Syriac and Coptic.
Yes, I guess I must have forgotten those. Silly me.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39879
  • Manna: 803
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #52 on: Mon Apr 04, 2022 - 18:49:10 »
 ::bowing:: Rella, I have never heard Red speak incessantly about flute playing nymphs and minotaurs.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #53 on: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 04:15:56 »
Again you have missed the whole point of Paul's discussion here. But you are not alone in it. 
No, I have not missed Paul's teaching concerning the free gift of Justification unto eternal life through one man's obedience~and neither have you.....you just plain out reject his gospel in favor of your gospel based on man's co-operation and efforts both from the sinner and the preacher bringing the message.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:20:50
Anyone who adheres to the false teaching of either original sin or Total Depravity will typically force much the same false teaching into verse 14.
Listen at the snail calling the worn slimy, as though you are not guilty with your work gospel. The gospel that so much glorifies man and man's free will, would be the guilty party of whom you speak. The gospel that glorifies the Son of God alone as the only source of free justification, would be free of corrupting the word of God. Now that's settled can we move on?
Quote from: 4WD Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:20:50
First we must realize that it is not physical death that is being referred to here.  Physical death is not due to sin.  Too many read Romans 6:23 and interpret it to mean that we die physically because of sin.  That is simply not the case. Even Romans 6:23 establishes the contrast to be between "death" and "eternal life"; so clearly, death as the wages of sin is not physical death, but the death of eternal condemnation.  Therefore your attempt to infer verse 14 to infants is way off base.
It is both spiritual and physical. IF we go back to Genesis 2:17 and start there and move forward to Genesis 5, etc. We must conclude the definition of this death is to be sought from its opposite; we must, I say, remember from what kind of life man fell. He was, in every respect, happy; his life, therefore, had alike respect to his body and his soul, since in his soul a right judgment and a proper government of the affections prevailed, there also life reigned; in his body, there was no defect, wherefore he was wholly free from death. His earthly life may would have been temporal; yet he would have passed into heaven without death, and without injury JUST as Enoch and Elijah did!

Death, therefore, is now a terror to us; first, because there is a kind of annihilation, as it respects the body; then, because the soul feels the curse of God. We must also see what is the cause of death, namely alienation from God. Thence it follows, that under the name of death is comprehended all those miseries in which Adam involved himself by his disobedience; for as soon as he revolted from God, the fountain of life, he was cast down from his former state, in order that he might perceive the life of man without God to be wretched and lost, and therefore differing nothing from death. Hence the condition of man after his sin is not improperly called both the privation of life and death~Adam began to die INWARDLY as well spiritually the very second he sinned. The miseries and evils both of soul and body, with which man is beset so long as he is on earth, are a kind of entrance into death, till death itself entirely absorbs him; for the Scripture everywhere calls those dead who, being oppressed by the tyranny of sin and Satan, breath nothing but their own destruction. Wherefore the question is superfluous, how it was that God threatened death to Adam on the day in which he should touch the fruit, when he long deferred the punishment? For then was Adam consigned to death, and death began its reign in him, until supervening grace should bring a remedy. Death now only reigns in our old man, but not the new man. Much of this I'm indebted to the pen of the reformers, and many after them~but, mainly John Calvin, to this Paul would agree....
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 4:16~"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day."
Fits perfectly with what we just said, so your point is already seriously wrong, which means all that follows will be wrong as well.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:20:50
So then, who is Paul talking about when he speaks of (ESV) "those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam"  [(KJV) "them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"]? Adam's transgression was in disobeying a command of God. The reason for Paul's reference to Moses can only be the law, the commands of God, that came from God through Moses. But almost from the very outset of Paul's letter to the Romans, he pointed out that there was sin whether or not there was a written ledger of commands available, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom 1:18-20)
4WD, you started out by asking this question:
Quote from: 4WD
So then, who is Paul talking about when he speaks of "them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"
Yet you never answered the question! I did very clearly when I said:
Quote from: RB Sun Apr 03, 2022 - 07:49:08
The reason of introducing the persons referred to by the word even, implies that they are such persons as apparently ought to be excluded from the reign of sin and death.
I think I know where you wanted to go with you answer that went to nowhere, yet I'm going to let you tell us exactly what you wanted to say but did not.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:20:50
The only justice we know is justice expressed and displayed by God.  A false perception of God's actions and a belief that such actions present God speaking true does not make the false perception true.
Okay, agreed.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:20:50
Yet, one more time.  Physical death is not the result of sin.  Physical death is an integral feature of this physical creation. Strictly speaking, Adam died spiritually when he sinned, just as you have acknowledged.  He died physically over hundred years later because he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life (Gen 3:22).
One more time. It was BOTH~as stated above by us. The very second Adam sinned he began to die inwardly.

I'll come back to finish so as to keep this readable.

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11915
  • Manna: 669
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #54 on: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 06:56:56 »
::bowing:: Rella, I have never heard Red speak incessantly about flute playing nymphs and minotaurs.

Good Morning Jaime,

That is true about Mr. Baker, but I was referring to the continual attitude that he is 100% right all the time even when his conversation seems to be opposite of something he previously said.

He would make a swell politician.  ::lookaround::

His comment to me was

Quote from: RB on Yesterday at 07:27:03
Quote
You need to read everything that has been said before making a comment and save yourself some embarrassment.I'm leaving for some meetings and may answer this after I'm finished with answering 4WD.

Repeating:

Mr. Baker :

Quote
from: RB on Sun Apr 03, 2022 - 07:49:08
Quote
Quote from: 4WD on Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 09:18:33
Only in your misinterpretation could you come to that conclusion. And in doing so, you ascribe to God, the very same sort of injustice that He holds against us.  Never would He condone us to accuse and convict , in court, someone for another's crime. The very concept is anathema. He wouldn't condone such a thing and He would do such a thing.

The sense I hold to and just about all before us up until the last hundred and fifty years~is, death passed upon all men even on them who had not sinned after Adam's transgression.

I had replied

Quote
Well... Paul said they were wrong stating simply that

Romans 3:23

So you need to modify your post and re-state what you did.

It was my error in not posting the scripture from his only bible choice... being

Romans 3:23
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Whether or not I re-re-re read any or all of their debate on this (RB and 4WD) has no bearing on his statement of belief...

"The sense I hold to"... " even on them who had not sinned"

It is misleading to say that without further explanation within that reply of how he could claim "even on them who had not sinned when Paul clearly tells us ALL have.

Someone who clicked on this exchange and arrives at this reply first. ( which is what happened to me because I have read up to that point ) could well wonder....

While he did reply

All men will die by virtue of their relationship to Adam and his sin (5:14-19; Ist Corinthians 15:22).

Quote from: RB on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26
It is a fact all men have sinned themselves, and it is a fact that the wages of every sin of every man is death, but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here.

He still should have noted that in his reply IMO. Most people will not read a long exchange more then once and then when they see something off scratch their heads ::headscratch::  and wonder if they should re-read it all again to see if that idea is already presented.

But then... I guess I am just further embarrassing myself.[/size]

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #55 on: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 08:02:15 »
No, I have not missed Paul's teaching concerning the free gift of Justification unto eternal life through one man's obedience~and neither have you.....you just plain out reject his gospel in favor of your gospel based on man's co-operation and efforts both from the sinner and the preacher bringing the message.
Yeah you have missed Paul's teaching here.  I don't reject his gospel; I reject your gospel. RB, the OT is one long record of God's mercies and grace based upon man's cooperation. In the case of the Jews under the Old Covenant, that was the case physically, materially and spiritually.  That was demonstrated over and over again.  It began early on with God's dealing with Cain and Abel. In God's question to Cain, it is clear that God is seeking cooperation.  God said to Cain, Gen 4:7  If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
Quote from: RB
Listen at the snail calling the worn slimy, as though you are not guilty with your work gospel. The gospel that so much glorifies man and man's free will, would be the guilty party of whom you speak
. What you call a work gospel, Paul rejects. He said, What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Rom 4:1-3)

Paul specifically and directly declares that it was Abraham's faith that was counted to him as righteousness; that is by his faith, Abraham was justified. Paul at that same time rejected the idea that faith was a work.
Quote from: RB
The gospel that glorifies the Son of God alone as the only source of free justification, would be free of corrupting the word of God. Now that's settled can we move on?
The gospel that follows from Paul's recounting the occasion of Abraham's faith as the condition for which God counted to him for righteousness, i.e., justified him, shows that such a condition does not preclude God alone as the only source of free justification. Yes we can move own so long as you understand that any condition, such as faith, established by God as a precursor to being justified is not a work.  But of course you can't accept that because it would totally discount your Soteriology.

Concerning sin as the reason for physical death, you said:
Quote from: RB
It is both spiritual and physical. IF we go back to Genesis 2:17 and start there and move forward to Genesis 5, etc. We must conclude the definition of this death is to be sought from its opposite; we must, I say, remember from what kind of life man fell. He was, in every respect, happy; his life, therefore, had alike respect to his body and his soul, since in his soul a right judgment and a proper government of the affections prevailed, there also life reigned; in his body, there was no defect, wherefore he was wholly free from death. His earthly life may would have been temporal; yet he would have passed into heaven without death, and without injury JUST as Enoch and Elijah did!
It is not both. If what you say about from what kind of life Adam fell is true, one must wonder why God said what He did about the effects of Adam's disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil (Gen 3:22a). Clearly something changed. He was not the complete man you seem to think he was. The rest of that verse tells us why physical death was definitely not the result of sin; rather it was the result of being ejected from the Garden for the specific reason to keep Adam from eating of the fruit of the tree of life which was what kept him free from the death that was the natural result of creation itself.
Quote from: RB
Death, therefore, is now a terror to us; first, because there is a kind of annihilation, as it respects the body; then, because the soul feels the curse of God. We must also see what is the cause of death, namely alienation from God. Thence it follows, that under the name of death is comprehended all those miseries in which Adam involved himself by his disobedience; for as soon as he revolted from God, the fountain of life, he was cast down from his former state, in order that he might perceive the life of man without God to be wretched and lost, and therefore differing nothing from death. Hence the condition of man after his sin is not improperly called both the privation of life and death~Adam began to die INWARDLY as well spiritually the very second he sinned. The miseries and evils both of soul and body, with which man is beset so long as he is on earth, are a kind of entrance into death, till death itself entirely absorbs him; for the Scripture everywhere calls those dead who, being oppressed by the tyranny of sin and Satan, breath nothing but their own destruction. Wherefore the question is superfluous, how it was that God threatened death to Adam on the day in which he should touch the fruit, when he long deferred the punishment? For then was Adam consigned to death, and death began its reign in him, until supervening grace should bring a remedy.
All of that is a bit of philosophical bloviating, but has little or nothing to do with the subject of death due to sin.

Quote from: RB
Death now only reigns in our old man, but not the new man.
That of course is true for spiritual death due to sins, but is not the case for physical death.  The new man is still a physical human being but is now justified.  It is the same old physical body subject to physical death. And that is the message from Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:16 which you referenced.

Speaking of death due to sin you said
Quote from: RB
One more time. It was BOTH~as stated above by us. The very second Adam sinned he began to die inwardly.
No it was not both.  Obviously, Adam began to dies physically from the very moment he was given life.  Otherwise there would have been no need of God's placing the tree of life in the Garden in the first place.

You said that I started out by asking the questions, "who is Paul talking about when he speaks of "them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"?. And you said I didn't answer it.  I did answer it, but apparently not very well. Adam's sin was that he disobeyed a direct command from God. In the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans he highlighted a world full of those who sinned but not by disobeying a direct command from God for they had no direct commands from God.  Paul follows that up almost directly in chapter 2 with For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.  (Rom 2:12-14)

So the next question then must be, who is Paul speaking of, when he said, "but sin is not counted where there is no law" (Rom 5:13) ?  He has just explained that there was law, even if not specifically spelled out in the way of the law of Moses.  I can go into some detail about that, but I will cut it short and just say that the only time or place where there is no law is with those without the capability to know and comprehend the law.  That is the case with the very young and the mentally deficient.  That is the case even today in our legal system.  We do not hold the very young and the mentally challenged legally responsible for any wrong they have committed.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #56 on: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 13:56:59 »
That is true about Mr. Baker, but I was referring to the continual attitude that he is 100% right all the time even when his conversation seems to be opposite of something he previously said.
It's not a continual attitude that I'm only right 100%, but you are erring not knowing the differences between confidence, boldness, and faith in God's word, to being a fence straddler, and a man-pleaser.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 06:56:56
He would make a swell politician.
Well just as I said~you have a very hard time differentiating between being godly and evil. It's really not that difficult for those that are wise and filled with the Spirit of God. Maybe you will get there one day, maybe~it's looking dim, and time is running out. 
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 06:56:56
It was my error in not posting the scripture from his only bible choice...
Wrong, I fully understood what you meant by using Romans 3:23 regardless of which version may have ended up in your hands.

You were rejecting the teaching that Adam stood as a federal head of his posterity and that every man is guilty before God because of his own sins, and I proceeded to remind you I had already said the same, yet I also reminded you but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here 
Quote from: RB on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26
All men will die by virtue of their relationship to Adam and his sin (5:14-19; Ist Corinthians 15:22). It is a fact all men have sinned themselves, and it is a fact that the wages of every sin of every man is death, but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here.
Is it not true that you have never yet been baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, if so, then how could you even truly have a true understanding of the truths of the kingdom of God? It is impossible, for there's a salvation waiting for those who believe and are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, even the name of Jesus Christ. This salvation that is given is the TRUE knowledge of the doctrines of the kingdom of God.

Arise and be baptized and let us discuss the mysteries of the kingdom of God~until then, I think you are not qualified to speak of those mysteries. You have broad jumped over the very first commandment given to those that believe.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 02:49:26 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #57 on: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 14:57:35 »
Yeah you have missed Paul's teaching here.  I don't reject his gospel; I reject your gospel.
I'll answer you later in the morning when my mind is fresh while I drink my first cup of coffee.

Well, let me see, I may have to take Sherry for a small surgery in the morning at 7:00~ so, we have to leave at 6:30 or before~I think I'll have time first to post at least one to you. Sherry is having cataracts removed from one eye, she did the other one last month and boy did it ever help! They told me I was good and did not need it.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 14:59:50 by RB »

Online Rella

  • I Am A Spirit, I Have A Soul, And I Live In A Body who firmly states that Becoming an adult is the dumbest thing I’ve ever done.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11915
  • Manna: 669
  • ULTRA MAGA~ EXTREMELY "IRRITATINGLY" DEPLORABLE
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #58 on: Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 17:25:09 »
It's not a continual attitude that I'm only right 100%, but you are erring not knowing the differences between confidence, boldness, and faith in God's word, to being a fence straddler, and a man-pleaser. Well just as I said~you have a very hard time differentiating between being godly and evil. It's really not that difficult for those that are wise and filled with the Spirit of God. Maybe you will get there one day, maybe~it's looking dim, and time is running out.  Wrong, I fully understood what you meant by using Romans 3:23 regardless of which version may have ended up in your hands.

You were rejecting the teaching that Adam stood as a federal head of his posterity and that every man is guilty before God because of his own sins, and I proceeded to remind you I had already said the same, yet I also reminded you but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here  Is it not true that you have never yet been baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, if so, then how could you even truly have a true understanding of the truths of the kingdom of God? It is impossible, for there's salvation waiting for those who believe and are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, even the name of Jesus Christ. This salvation that is given is the TRUE knowledge of the doctrines of the kingdom of God.

Arise and be baptized and let us discuss the mysteries of the kingdom of God~until then, I think you are not qualified to speak of those mysteries. You have broad jumped over the very first commandment given to those that believe.

Expletive Off.

You have already told me last year that I am not saved. Or that I lost whatever salvation I might have had . I forget exactly what you said but you were number 12 of the 13 I used to list.

I dont give a fig what you believe.

But enjoy  the rest of your life.... from now on ... and you shall be thrilled with this... You can shout it from the house tops that you finally made me put you on ignore because that is where you belong in my life and i'll be gone which you have been trying to do for a very long time.

 ::tippinghat::

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #59 on: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 02:42:48 »
Expletive Off.

You have already told me last year that I am not saved. Or that I lost whatever salvation I might have had . I forget exactly what you said but you were number 12 of the 13 I used to list.

I dont give a fig what you believe.

But enjoy  the rest of your life.... from now on ... and you shall be thrilled with this... You can shout it from the house tops that you finally made me put you on ignore because that is where you belong in my life and i'll be gone which you have been trying to do for a very long time.

 ::tippinghat::
I have never said you were not born again, let's get that straight, so you are not being honest, or not reading other's posts carefully enough. Please take time and read others' posts carefully, which you seem to have trouble doing. I said:
Quote from: RB on: Yesterday at 13:56:59
Is it not true that you have never yet been baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, if so, then how could you even truly have a true understanding of the truths of the kingdom of God? It is impossible, for there's a salvation waiting for those who believe and are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, even the name of Jesus Christ. This salvation that is given is the TRUE knowledge of the doctrines of the kingdom of God.
I always labor to word my posts carefully so as not to allow what you are saying I said.

One can be born again, yet lack some vital knowledge of the word of God. We all are imperfect in our understanding, but in order to secure more understanding, we MUST obey what we DO KNOW, such as being baptized into Jesus Christ the very first step of obedience to the commandments of God. By your own admission, you have not. So, do not get mad at me for telling you what you MUST DO to please God, and before God will give more light to His blessed truth. You should be thankful, not bitter.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 02:51:18 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #60 on: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 03:33:43 »
Yeah you have missed Paul's teaching here.  I don't reject his gospel; I reject your gospel. RB, the OT is one long record of God's mercies and grace based upon man's cooperation. In the case of the Jews under the Old Covenant, that was the case physically, materially and spiritually. 
I would agree with all three, if you modified what you mean by "spiritually".

Example: King David's terrible sin. He was a man of God that committed a horrible sin that we are all capable of doing if we do not heed the exhortations of the word of God. Especially so the many, we find in Solomon's Proverbs.....of all people! Then I agree with the word spiritually.

If you are speaking of regeneration then I must disagree with you~we have no part in being saved from sin and condemnation, that's the work of God solely by his power and grace toward us on the behalf of Jesus Christ who was made sin for us, that we would be made the righteousness of God. I'm sure that the sense in which you were using the word spiritual.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #55 on: Yesterday at 08:02:15
It began early on with God's dealing with Cain and Abel. In God's question to Cain, it is clear that God is seeking cooperation.  God said to Cain, Gen 4:7  If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
Well, guess what? He would have, and if he had followed the way of his brother, then that would have proved that God had given him the gift of faith~and by Cain not doing as Abel proved also that of himself he could not bring the proper offering, and by Cain killing his brother also proved he truly had no desire to please God, or even his own flesh and blood~his god was his own precious thoughts and feelings which all men have by nature hold dear to themselves.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #55 on: Yesterday at 08:02:15
What you call a work gospel, Paul rejects. He said, What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Rom 4:1-3)

Paul specifically and directly declares that it was Abraham's faith that was counted to him as righteousness; that is by his faith, Abraham was justified. Paul at that same time rejected the idea that faith was a work.
Let us once more look at this phrase that is used several times over in the scriptures both Old and New Testaments.

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23).

Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, "even as", in Galatians 3:6...
Quote
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen.

Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if we grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles!

The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers~and ALL those who believe as you do that works are included in one being born of God.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6). Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and even Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.

Arminians (like you) hold conditional justification~faith is the human condition for righteousness.

Calvinists hold instrumental justification~faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant~is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; PLEASE READ ....Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24). If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! You cannot escape this conclusion.

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20)? Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!

4WD, ask yourself these questions: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what? Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage?

Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Hebrews 11:4-7).

We must conclude God wrote Genesis 15:6 and its many other like scriptures for future use in showing the important role of faith to all trusting in their works~ the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all! Salvation is of the Lord.

Later....RB
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 04:21:27 by RB »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #61 on: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 07:15:59 »
If you are speaking of regeneration then I must disagree with you~we have no part in being saved from sin and condemnation, that's the work of God solely by his power and grace toward us on the behalf of Jesus Christ who was made sin for us, that we would be made the righteousness of God. I'm sure that the sense in which you were using the word spiritual.
Regeneration is strictly a New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit. So I wouldn't have been speaking of regeneration in connection with the conditional elements in the OT.
Quote from: RB
Well, guess what? He would have, and if he had followed the way of his brother, then that would have proved that God had given him the gift of faith~
Again with the foolish notion that faith is a gift from God.  If faith was the gift from God to Cain that was needed for "him to do well" (Gen 4:7), and if that gift was not given, then Cain could not be held responsible for killing Abel.  It is just that straightforward.  But of course, in your Calvinism you cannot accept that. There can be no argument to the fact that God is laying the fault of Cain's behavior on Cain himself and not on God's lack of giving any gift to Cain.

Concerning Genesis 15:6 and all the verses referring back to that you said:
Quote from: RB
Let us once more look at this phrase that is used several times over in the scriptures both Old and New Testaments.

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23).

Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, "even as", in Galatians 3:6... Means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen.
Yes, there is a very strong comparison to be seen. It is more than a comparison. Paul presented it as for us as well.  Paul said,  "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord (Rom 4:23-24)For us as it was for Abraham, faith is the condition by which God Justifies. And your attempt to prove otherwise is futile.
Quote from: RB
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
NO IT DOES NOT SAY THAT ! ! In all the verses you referenced  (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23), there is no mention of evidence.  The word evidence does not appear in any of them.  Even the suggestion concerning evidence is not there.  Faith is not counted as evidence of anything, faith is counted as righteousness. To be counted as righteousness is to be justified.  It is our faith that God reckons as justification. Righteousness is imputed to the one who believes, to the one who has faith in God. No amount of deflection can change what God says in every single verse you referenced there.
Quote from: RB
4WD, ask yourself these questions: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what? Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage?
RB --  Why would I ask myself if it is an act of faith that justifies?  I have never said that. I don't believe that. How can you be so blind to the truth of what is written?  It is not faith that justifies.  God justifies.  But who does God justify?  Who is it that God declares as righteous? It is the one who believes.

 It [righteousness] will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord...(Rom 4:24)
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 07:19:06 by 4WD »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #62 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 02:28:33 »
Is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional?
"Legal justification" is completely a man-made doctrine.  Here's a Biblical view of justification:

(a) Some people believe God.  (b) This causes them to obey Him.  (c) By obeying, they manage to do what is right and just.

Half the stuff you talk about above was NEVER a concern of Scripture to begin with.  You're just doing mental gymnastics, trying to wring them out for EXTRA meaning beyond the original revelation.  It should be simple.

Jarrod

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #63 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 03:46:55 »
"Legal justification" is completely a man-made doctrine.
It is not man-made~just about every man worth his salt, or shows any kind of ability to rightly divide the word of God understood that "justification is not used in only one sense in the scriptures, and this truly does not take very much insight to see and understand this blessed truth, without understanding this truth, it is impossible for one to truly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ in its purest teaching as taught in the word of God. Just because you have never heard or considered this blessed truth does not mean it's man-made~most likely in your case, and others, it is hidden from your eyes by men, whom God has not sent forth to teach and preach the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here are just a few prophets in the past generations who taught these truths with boldness.  https://mountzionpbc.org/Justification/John%20Brine%201732%20Eternal%20Justification-MZ-1%20.pdf John Brine was a deacon in the church pastored by John Gill. http://www.sovereignredeemerbooks.com/assets/pdf/samuel-richardson/justification-by-christ-alone.pdf This doctrine was held almost 100% by the Baptist Churches of England from the sixteen until the late nineteen century.  Some faithful churches today still hold to these truths. https://letgodbetrue.com/bible-topics/index/salvation/ so, it is only man-made in your mind since you have probably never studied this out if the truth was known.
Quote from:  Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #62 on: Today at 02:28:33
(a) Some people believe God.  (b) This causes them to obey Him.  (c) By obeying, they manage to do what is right and just.
Okay~no one would disagree with that statement, at least they should not~but you fail to show why to some believe and others do not? WHO made the difference between those that believe and those that believe not? That's is the separation between a work gospel or one that is of God by grace alone.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #62 on: Today at 02:28:33
Half the stuff you talk about above was NEVER a concern of Scripture to begin with.  You're just doing mental gymnastics, trying to wring them out for EXTRA meaning beyond the original revelation. 
Jarrod, you can take what I said and use the scriptures to prove your accusation, and until you do so, you are proving that what you are saying is your personal thoughts without support from God's testimony. My post was at least a serious attempt to support it with God's holy testimony concerning his truths.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #62 on: Today at 02:28:33
It should be simple.
It is only simple to those who understand.
Quote from: A WISE MAN
Proverbs 14:6~"A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth."
A scorner resents biblical truths, especially so the doctrine of "FREE" grace, and they despise those who teach those precious truths. Such is a perverse rebel, and he will not grow in wisdom. But a man with understanding, who loves and submits as little children to God's truths, will grow in true knowledge and wisdom, and understanding. What a difference among men! It is our duty and privilege, to be a wise person.

The blessed God has no use for scorners. He hates them, and He is their enemy during life. They wander ignorantly in arrogance and self-righteousness, while He mocks them before angels and men. The LORD loves humble men/women, who willingly receive His Word and are thankful for it. They love His preachers and teachers, whether parents or pastors.

Men are born helpless and ignorant. They take a year to learn to stumble, another year to learn a few basic words, another two to ride a tricycle, and another twelve to drive a car dangerously. Men of understanding know their ignorance and dependence on God’s revelation. They love all who will teach them wisdom.

Finding truth is not as simple and easy as some think. Selah.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 03:52:15 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #64 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 04:38:53 »
Regeneration is strictly a New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit.
It is so hard to fathom that some people like you would believe that lie.

If what you are saying is true, how do you think men (women) living in the flesh please God in the OT? It would be impossible, and that's not my personal opinion but the very words of God.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:5-9~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Since Abel and Cain there have been two generations of people living in this world at any given time~the just and the unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous, the godly and the ungodly, etc., etc. One are in the Spirit, the other is still living in the flesh. Those after the flesh, mind the things of the flesh, always have, always will. Those after the Spirit, mind the things of the Spirit. One is at enmity against God, and is not subject to the will of God and neither can be. The other delights in God's law and seeks to please him in thoughts, words, and deeds. If any man has not the Spirit of God he is none of his, this was true in the OT as it is in the NT, to believe otherwise, is to have a "secret agenda" and what that secret agenda is one will soon find out, but generally, it leads to a work gospel where man seeks to be co-partners with Christ in man's salvation from sin and condemnation.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 07:15:59
Again with the foolish notion that faith is a gift from God.
Foolish notion? You should repent of such proud words against God's testimony! But, your proud spirit will not let you do so~pitiful.

Before any sinner can or will come to Christ, he must be born again. Faith is the result, not the cause of the new birth (1st John 5:1). That faith by which we receive God’s salvation in Christ is the gift of God. “Salvation is of the LORD,” (Jonah 2:9) in its entirety! It is not of works at any time in a believer’s life, God will never be brought into debt by the works of any man, he will never owe a blessing, all is of grace without works of the flesh.

Faith in Christ is as much the gift and work of God’s free grace as election, redemption, and regeneration. If we believe, it is because God has given us faith,
Quote from: Paul
Philippinas 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
We “believe according to the working of His mighty power” (Ephesians 1:19). Faith is NOT the work of the sinner’s imaginary “free will.” Faith is the gift of God’s sovereign grace, the result of God’s operation upon the heart. The only faith that saves us from sin and condemnation is the faith of Jesus Christ, mentioned at least five to six times in the NT.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 07:15:59
Concerning Genesis 15:6 and all the verses referring back to that you said:
I'll come back so this post does not get too long.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #65 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 07:35:29 »
"Legal justification" is completely a man-made doctrine.  Here's a Biblical view of justification:


It is not man-made~just about every man worth his salt, or shows any kind of ability to rightly divide the word of God understood that "justification is not used in only one sense in the scriptures,

When you speak of legal justification, you then, necessarily, are asserting that there is some other type or manner of justification. That in itself is false.  The word "justification" when used in connection with salvation to eternal life has only one meaning. Justification is a legal term. The phrase "legal justification" never occurs in the Bible. 

Sin takes two basic forms; it burdens the sinner with a “double trouble.” On the one hand sin makes us guilty. Guilt is a wrong relationship with the law of God, involving a liability to punishment. On the other hand, sin gives us a sinful or depraved nature. It infects the soul (and the body) with spiritual weakness and corruption. Because the sinner’s problem is twofold, grace as the content of salvation must also be twofold—a “double cure.” The first aspect of salvation received by the believing, penitent sinner is the gift of justification, which solves the problem of guilt and removes all punishment. God as Judge declares that the penalty for sin no longer applies to us. The second aspect of salvation, resulting from the gift of the indwelling Spirit, consists of the divine works of regeneration and sanctification. God as Physician cures the disease of sin that afflicts our natures, thus resolving the problem of spiritual corruption and restoring us to spiritual wholeness.

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state).

“Justification means something God does. Indeed, it means a very specific thing God does.” It is true that God also regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies; but these are not the same as justification. “Justification has a distinct meaning.” What is this meaning? A brief look at some Greek terminology will tell us what that is. The noun usually translated “justification” is dikaiosis; the verb “to justify” is dikaioo. These terms are from the same word family as “righteous” (dikaios) and “righteousness” (dikaiosyne), which suggests that justification has something to do with righteousness. “To justify” means not to make righteous, but to declare righteous, to count or accept as righteous. The state of justification is not an ever-increasing holiness of character, but a complete right legal standing before the law of God and a freedom from the law’s penalty.

That this is the proper meaning of the concept is also seen in the fact that in Scripture justification is basically a legal (judicial) concept. That is, in the Bible it is a judge’s verdict or finding after he has considered the evidence and found a person to be innocent. “To justify” is always the opposite of “to condemn.” If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. (Deu 25:1) Likewise Prov 17:15 condemns a corrupt judge “who justifies the wicked” and “condemns the righteous” (see Isa 5:23). This same contrast between justification and condemnation is seen in God’s own judicial verdict: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?” (Rom 8:33-34; see Matt 12:37). Obviously when a judge condemns someone he does not thereby make that person guilty; he only discovers and declares him to be so. Likewise when a judge justifies someone he does not thereby make that person innocent or righteous; he simply declares him to be so.

There is a major difference between justification as an act of a human judge and justification as a saving act of God. Human judges, unless they are corrupt (Prov 17:15), justify only the innocent; they declare someone righteous only if he is indeed already righteous or innocent. This is what the law requires. But in the act of salvation God justifies guilty sinners (Rom 4:5); he declares the unrighteous to be righteous! How can God go against the standards of his own law (Deut 25:1) and do the very thing that he himself has forbidden in Prov 17:15? When God justifies us, he is declaring that, even though we are sinners, we are now “square” with the law. How can this be since we as sinners have broken the commands of the law?

First we must remember that the way of salvation is grace, not law; and the principles by which grace operates are the very opposite of law. But this is not the whole story. In order to understand precisely what is happening in justification, we must remember that law consists not only of commands but also of penalties.

There is no longer any way that a sinner can be right with the law (i.e., justified) in reference to its commands, since we are guilty of breaking them. When God justifies us, he is not declaring that we are innocent and have never broken the law’s commands. Rather, justification is God’s declaration that we are right with the law in reference to its penalty. It means that God treats us not as if we are innocent, because we are not; rather, it means that he treats us as if our penalty has already been paid— and it has.

This is the definition, the meaning, of justification.  It means that God as Judge declares us to be righteous with respect to his law. That raises the question of on what basis God makes this declaration. Because God himself is righteous, he cannot say or do anything that violates his own holy nature or that ignores the requirements of his holy law. Thus if God justifies us or declares us righteous, there must be a basis or rationale for God being able to do that.

I will save that for later.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #66 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 08:10:22 »
Faith in Christ is as much the gift and work of God’s free grace as election, redemption, and regeneration.
There is some truth to that.  But unfortunately, just as your definition of justification is all screwed up, so also are your definitions and understanding of election, redemption and regeneration.
Quote from: RB
If we believe, it is because God has given us faith
NO  No  No.  God has given us the truth in His word, the written revelation, the Bible. When we hear [or read] that truth and believe it, that is faith (Rom 10:17).  That is the definition. Read carefully what Paul wrote right after that.  He said, But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry." Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people" (Rom 10:18-21)

Now all of that was prefaced with verse 16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. And to that Paul added the quote from Isaiah, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"

So if faith, believing in God, is a gift of God then none of Romans 10 makes any sense whatsoever.  If God gives faith, i.e., imparts belief, then how could anyone so gifted not believe?  Is God not successful in what He does?
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 08:13:11 by 4WD »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #67 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 08:32:51 »
God will never be brought into debt by the works of any man, he will never owe a blessing, all is of grace without works of the flesh.
God owes whatever blessing He promised on whatever reason or condition He chose to impose.

Again referring to God's discourse with Cain:  "If you do well, will you not be accepted?" That was of course a rhetorical question.  Accepted by whom?  By God of course.  The condition of being accepted? DOING well.

In other words, what God is saying to Cain is "IF you do well, you WILL be accepted.  The condition met; the blessing promised (owed).

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #68 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 12:03:09 »
Just because you have never heard or considered this blessed truth does not mean it's man-made

Oh, but I have.  6 years of education in the Dutch Reformed church, a couple years at a Baptist university, etc.

Here are just a few prophets in the past generations who taught these truths with boldness.  https://mountzionpbc.org/Justification/John%20Brine%201732%20Eternal%20Justification-MZ-1%20.pdf John Brine was a deacon in the church pastored by John Gill. http://www.sovereignredeemerbooks.com/assets/pdf/samuel-richardson/justification-by-christ-alone.pdf This doctrine was held almost 100% by the Baptist Churches of England from the sixteen until the late nineteen century.

What makes this a man-made doctrine is that it simply doesn't exist in anything like the form you present it before the Reformation.  The early church fathers are completely ignorant of any such teaching.

You can point out a verse here or there and say it appears in the Bible, sure.  But that is like a builder pointing out a single brick in his foundation and saying that justifies the entire house he has built on top of it.  It's akin to those paleontologists of yesteryear who found a single fossilized tooth, and built an entire skeleton out of it.

Okay~no one would disagree with that statement, at least they should not~but you fail to show why to some believe and others do not?

A single, uniform reason does not exist.  Every person has their own reasons for the choices they make.

You cannot accept that answer of course, because you have already denied that anyone can choose anything.

Jarrod, you can take what I said and use the scriptures to prove your accusation, and until you do so, you are proving that what you are saying is your personal thoughts without support from God's testimony.

What exactly do you want me to prove?  It seems like this is just another invitation to join you in throwing out-of-context verses back and forth at each other.

My post was at least a serious attempt to support it with God's holy testimony concerning his truths.

I've never questioned your earnestness.  Just your methods and conclusions.

It is only simple to those who understand.

That would be me in this scenario.  My explanation was 21 words long and you agreed with it.  By contrast, you have written a small book here and there is disagreement on what half the words you used even mean.

A scorner resents biblical truths, especially so the doctrine of "FREE" grace, and they despise those who teach those precious truths. Such is a perverse rebel, and he will not grow in wisdom. But a man with understanding, who loves and submits as little children to God's truths, will grow in true knowledge and wisdom, and understanding. What a difference among men! It is our duty and privilege, to be a wise person.

The blessed God has no use for scorners. He hates them, and He is their enemy during life. They wander ignorantly in arrogance and self-righteousness, while He mocks them before angels and men. The LORD loves humble men/women, who willingly receive His Word and are thankful for it. They love His preachers and teachers, whether parents or pastors.

Men are born helpless and ignorant. They take a year to learn to stumble, another year to learn a few basic words, another two to ride a tricycle, and another twelve to drive a car dangerously. Men of understanding know their ignorance and dependence on God’s revelation. They love all who will teach them wisdom.

Finding truth is not as simple and easy as some think.

I don't think you're quite comprehending our positions here.  I have the simple belief; you the complex one.  I am the one embracing Scripture at face value.  Yours are the mental contortions trying to make Scripture say something MORE.

Jarrod

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4437
  • Manna: 96
  • Gender: Male
Re: Calvinism
« Reply #69 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 15:26:18 »
"Senator Texas":

   "If you want to debate with RB, why don't you just do it instead of hiding behind 4WD?"

    I think I will handle my end of it the way I judge it should be handled. I'm assuming that's the same principle you use for yourself. If so, you do your thing and I will do mine.

Buff