Author Topic: Calvinism  (Read 3150 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #70 on: Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 22:47:13 »
Jarrod & 4WD:

    Congratulations on how you two are handling RB's repetitious positions on Calvinism. A couple of weeks ago, I gave up trying to tutor him, or even reason with him. But carry on, you might possibly, somehow or some way, enlighten him.

Kindly,

Buff

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #71 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 03:34:22 »
Jarrod & 4WD:

    Congratulations on how you two are handling RB's repetitious positions on Calvinism. A couple of weeks ago, I gave up trying to tutor him, or even reason with him. But carry on, you might possibly, somehow or some way, enlighten him.

Kindly,

Buff
"Trying to tutor me"~now that's a narcissistic statement coming from the king himself of the narcissistic community of Pharisees,

"Repetitious positions" on Calvinism? If that is what you think I'm defending, then you have very little knowledge of the truth when it comes to the doctrine of Soteriology. If Jesus Christ was preaching in our day, you would cheer on the lawyers, Jews, and Pharisees in their meager attempt to expose Christ as one who had the spirit of the chief of the devils, as he taught them such truths as are found here:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Luke 4:18-29~"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong."
Why did Jesus' words stir up hatred in their hearts? The same words that do in your heart~God's sovereign right to show mercy to whosoever he will!

From these scriptures, we learn, how bitterly human nature dislikes the doctrine of the sovereignty of God. We see this in the conduct of the men of Nazareth, when our Lord reminded them that God was under no obligation to work miracles among them. Were there not many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah? No doubt there were. Yet to none of them was the prophet sent. All were passed over in favor of a Gentile widow at Sarepta~Were there not many lepers in Israel in the days of Elisha? No doubt there were. Yet to none of them was the privilege of healing granted. Naaman the Syrian was the only one who was cleansed~Such doctrine as this was intolerable to the men of Nazareth just as it is with you and many others. It wounded their pride and self-conceit. It taught them that God was no man’s debtor, and that if they themselves were passed over in the distribution of His mercies, they had no right to find fault. They could not bear it. They were "filled with wrath." They thrust theLord out of their city, and had it not been for an exercise of miraculous power on His part, they would doubtless have put Him to a violent death.

Of all the doctrines of the Bible none is so offensive to human nature as the doctrine of God’s sovereignty. To be told that God is great, and just, and holy, and pure, man can bear. But to be told that "He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy,~that He "giveth no account of His matters," that it is "not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy,"~these are truths that natural man cannot stand and WILL NOT. They often call forth all their enmity against God, and fill him with wrath and hatred toward those who faithfully teach it. Nothing, in short, will make him submit to them but the humbling teaching of the Holy Ghost.

I have settled it in my mind that, whether I like it or not, the sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners is a doctrine clearly revealed in the Bible, and a fact clearly to be seen in the world. Upon no other principle can we ever explain why some members of a family are converted, and others live and die in sin~why some quarters of the earth are enlightened by Christianity, and others remain buried in heathenism. One account only can be given of all this. All is ordered by the sovereign hand of God. We should be praying for humility in respect of this Bible truth. Let us remember that our life is but a vapor, and that our best knowledge compared to that of God is perfect folly. We should be thankful for such light as we enjoy ourselves, and use it diligently while we have it. We should never doubt that on the last day the whole world shall be convinced, that He who now "gives no account of His matters" has done all things well~yea, perfectly righteously.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 03:37:38 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #72 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 04:14:08 »
Oh, but I have.  6 years of education in the Dutch Reformed church, a couple years at a Baptist university, etc.
I would not say it would be the same~most universities and schools even if they carry the name Reformed, or Baptist, especially so Baptist which I have been among, means nothing as far as teaching sound Biblical truths. I cannot speak much about the Reformed side, since I have never been among them in any way except reading behind some of the older ones.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:03:09
What makes this a man-made doctrine is that it simply doesn't exist in anything like the form you present it before the Reformation.  The early church fathers are completely ignorant of any such teaching.
That would be a true statement~yet, we know before the Reformation even back to the early so-called church fathers were very confused on most bible doctrines, reading their work is extremely wearisome to the flesh with almost no profit.

Just because we cannot see the early churches fathers (I prefer teachers) not teaching this or that, does not mean what was taught "from" the Reformation onward would make it a man-made doctrine. Surely you would agree with this.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:03:09
You can point out a verse here or there and say it appears in the Bible, sure.  But that is like a builder pointing out a single brick in his foundation and saying that justifies the entire house he has built on top of it.  It's akin to those paleontologists of yesteryear who found a single fossilized tooth, and built an entire skeleton out of it.
That would be so, but you know we give much more than one ot two verses here and there~let's be honest.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:03:09
A single, uniform reason does not exist.  Every person has their own reasons for the choices they make.
Well sir, it most certainly does when it comes to fallen humanity! The scriptures speaks of the flesh (or our sinful nature) as ONE MAN, even though, God may restrain sin in some and not in others, yet the core are the same in all!
Quote from: Jeremiah
Jeremiah 17:9~"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
One more:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 2:25~"And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."
Sorry, but one more:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 7:18-23~"And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."
So your point is against God's testimony.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:03:09
You cannot accept that answer of course, because you have already denied that anyone can choose anything.
Jarrod. I can accept any truth if you can show it to me form the scriptures~It is not me that has come up with this truth, but it is clearly taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Jesus clearly taught that that which is born of flesh IS FLESH, or, in other words..... sinful, wicked and at enmity against God. I could give hundreds of scriptures, but they have been given many times over and you know them well~so the problem is not with knowledge, but a love for that knowledge/truth~see 2nd Thessalonians 2:10.
Quote
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


I'm going to stop, so I will not write a book as you called it~ But, truly I hardly set the table in order for the children to eat~Selah.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #73 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 04:40:33 »
There is some truth to that.  But unfortunately, just as your definition of justification is all screwed up, so also are your definitions and understanding of election, redemption, and regeneration.
I'm seriously considering starting a thread on the doctrine of Justification, and let others judge who has the correct understanding of Justification~even if most disagree with what I present, then no loss, someone may get help, and that's the only reason why we are doing such labor.

I still may come back and answer your posts, but not now, since I have other obligations I must attend to.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #73 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 04:40:33 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #74 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 06:29:27 »
Jarrod & 4WD:

    Congratulations on how you two are handling RB's repetitious positions on Calvinism. A couple of weeks ago, I gave up trying to tutor him, or even reason with him. But carry on, you might possibly, somehow or some way, enlighten him.

Kindly,

Buff

You still keep posting, but you don't have the cojones to disagree directly with RB like Jarrod and 4WD.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #74 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 06:29:27 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #75 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 13:07:30 »
"Senator Texas"

    "You still keep posting, but you don't have the cojones to disagree directly with RB like Jarrod and 4WD."

    Wrong again, as usual. I have submitted numerous and long replies to his Calvinistic views. Where have you been? Napping?

Buff

Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #76 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 13:10:37 »
RB:

Go for it! A thread on Justification would be uniquely interesting.

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #77 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 13:14:29 »
"Senator Texas"

    "You still keep posting, but you don't have the cojones to disagree directly with RB like Jarrod and 4WD."

    Wrong again, as usual. I have submitted numerous and long replies to his Calvinistic views. Where have you been? Napping?

Buff

I am right again as usual.  You run away when someone doesn't back down.  And then out comes the name calling.

Senator Chief Justice Texas   ::tippinghat::

Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #78 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 14:00:51 »
"Senator Texas:"

    Wrong again, as usual, in Reply #77. I have submitted numerous and long replies to his Calvinistic views. If it will refresh your mind and attitude, I will repost the many replies I have written and submitted. Otherwise, get off my back with your nonsense. [I'm hoping Lee Wilson is following this exchange.]

Buff

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #78 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 14:00:51 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #79 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 17:29:57 »
"Senator Texas:"

    Wrong again, as usual, in Reply #77. I have submitted numerous and long replies to his Calvinistic views. If it will refresh your mind and attitude, I will repost the many replies I have written and submitted. Otherwise, get off my back with your nonsense. [I'm hoping Lee Wilson is following this exchange.]

Buff

There is no nonsense.  Just disagreement.  Something you have a hard time with.

As per Admin following this thread, I doubt it.  Feel free to report the post.  Or if you don't want to see my replies, you can place me on your ignore list.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 17:34:31 by Texas Conservative »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #80 on: Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 21:57:28 »
Captain Texas:

"There is no nonsense. Just disagreement. Something you have a hard time with."

    Another false accusation. Perhaps I should start counting them, package them after hitting a certain number, and send them to Lee.

Buff

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #81 on: Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 02:54:58 »
Captain Texas:

"There is no nonsense. Just disagreement. Something you have a hard time with."

    Another false accusation. Perhaps I should start counting them, package them after hitting a certain number, and send them to Lee.

Buff


You remind me of cowards on the playground when the big and tough boys were not around, they try to impress others, especially the girls, but when the real tuff boys were there, they were as quiet as a house mouse. If you do not like the heat, then as the old saying goes, stay out of the kitchen. Forum debates are not for whinners, complainers snitchers and mommy's little boys.
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 02:57:18 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #82 on: Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 03:10:28 »
RB:

Go for it! A thread on Justification would be uniquely interesting.

Buff
Is it because you need more practice on cheering?

Well, it would indeed be"uniquely" as far as what you may have heard and taught from your circle of friends in which you have lived, not so with the testimony of God's word.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #83 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 06:00:40 »
Of all the doctrines of the Bible none is so offensive to human nature as the doctrine of God’s sovereignty.
I would propose that it is your view or definition of the sovereignty of God that is wrong and that is what is offensive.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #84 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 07:04:55 »
I would propose that it is your view or definition of the sovereignty of God that is wrong and that is what is offensive.
Mine is the same as Paul!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:9-For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This is not speaking of service, but salvation from sin and condemnation! The language used by Paul writing under the inspiration of God, can be very easily be proven that salvation is under consideration, not service, as your camp labors in vain to twist so as to reject God's sovereignty in the salvation of sinners.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #85 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 07:42:23 »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:03:09
What makes this a man-made doctrine is that it simply doesn't exist in anything like the form you present it before the Reformation.  The early church fathers are completely ignorant of any such teaching.
That would be a true statement~yet, we know before the Reformation even back to the early so-called church fathers were very confused on most bible doctrines, reading their work is extremely wearisome to the flesh with almost no profit.

Just because we cannot see the early churches fathers (I prefer teachers) not teaching this or that, does not mean what was taught "from" the Reformation onward would make it a man-made doctrine. Surely you would agree with this.
I disagree on every point.  I do not find the early church confused about much, and I find their work much much much more profitable than anything written so late as the Reformation.

Somewhere between Augustine and Luther the church left the path and became a business of politics and profits.  If it were not so, there would have been no need for a Reformation.

I applaud the work of the Reformers, but let's recognize that work for what it was - they were trying to restore the church to its original state.  That is, the state it was in when those early writings you condemn were written.   ::lookaround::  The Reformer's aim was not to create new doctrines, but to discard those man-made doctrines that an apostate church had added.

I am VERY comfortable discarding any doctrine which does not exist in the early church.  The people who spoke the Biblical languages and met the authors and spoke with them did not take their writings to mean this.  Why would I think that someone divorced from that time and place by 1500 years and thousands of miles would know better?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 12:03:09
You can point out a verse here or there and say it appears in the Bible, sure.  But that is like a builder pointing out a single brick in his foundation and saying that justifies the entire house he has built on top of it.  It's akin to those paleontologists of yesteryear who found a single fossilized tooth, and built an entire skeleton out of it.
That would be so, but you know we give much more than one ot two verses here and there~let's be honest.
The problem is not a dearth of verses.  It's the way you use them.  You're about to fire a volley of verses at me here, so let's just use that as an example:

Well sir, it most certainly does when it comes to fallen humanity! The scriptures speaks of the flesh (or our sinful nature) as ONE MAN, even though, God may restrain sin in some and not in others, yet the core are the same in all!

Quote from: Jeremiah
Jeremiah 17:9~"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

One more:

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 2:25~"And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

Sorry, but one more:

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Mark 7:18-23~"And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

So your point is against God's testimony.
These verses establish DEPRAVITY.  Depravity IS a Biblical doctrine.  It says that people in their native state invent ways to do bad things. ✔

However, what you seek to establish is TOTAL DEPRAVITY.  That's more than just depravity.  Total Depravity says that people in their native state are absolutely unable to do anything good, to think of anything good, or even to accept something good if it is offered to them. x

These verses do NOT establish TOTAL DEPRAVITY.  The case is as I said before...

You found some good bricks in Scripture, but then proceeded to build an outhouse out of them.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #86 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 08:00:06 »
Also, just realized... we were originally talking about justification, and somehow shifted straight to depravity. 

Just as well, I think.  Depravity vs Total Depravity is really the crux of the issue, the place where Calvinists left the path.

Jarrod

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #87 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 09:36:49 »
Mine is the same as Paul!
No, it is not.  Speaking about Romans 9, you said,
Quote from: RB
This is not speaking of service, but salvation from sin and condemnation! The language used by Paul writing under the inspiration of God, can be very easily be proven that salvation is under consideration, not service, as your camp labors in vain to twist so as to reject God's sovereignty in the salvation of sinners.
It is speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation only with regard to bringing God's plan of salvation from sin and condemnation. We know that because that was the whole premise that Paul began with in speaking of his brohters, his kinsmen according to the flesh: They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.  To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. They were a chosen nation, the elect nation of God. They were not all saved from sin and condemnation.

He Spoke of Jacob and Esau.  And he spoke of Pharaoh saying  For this purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you.... There is no power shown in salvation or condemnation because neither is physically observable. Pharaoh's hardening by  God wasn't a hardening against salvation or condemnation.  It was a hardening against doing what God commanded that he do.  All of that between Pharoah and God was the observable demonstration to the Egyptians and the Hebrews of the power of God.  In the cases of the choosing of the nation of Israel. the choosing of the brothers, Jacob and Esau, as well as the choosing of Pharoah, they are all chosen to perform a service.

Further the specific discussion of Israel' unbelief in verse 30-33 demonstrates the righteousness that is the result of the individual's pursuit of righteousness by faith and not by law shows us that it is not God that chooses salvation or condemnation; rather it is by the choice of the one doing the pursuing and not a sovereign choice of God.   but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.  Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 09:38:57 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #88 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 12:35:19 »
I do not find the early church confused about much, and I find their work much much much more profitable than anything written so late as the Reformation.

Somewhere between Augustine and Luther the church left the path and became a business of politics and profits.  If it were not so, there would have been no need for a Reformation.
I do not include Augustine among the early church teachers as not having very much that's profitable. I have enjoyed reading some of his LATTER work, not so much from his earlier work. Have you read his "retractions"? http://www.augnet.org/en/works-of-augustine/writings-of-augustine/2148-the-retractions/ which shows his conversions from his earlier writings.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Reply #85 on: Today at 07:42:23
Somewhere between Augustine and Luther the church left the path and became a business of politics and profits.  If it were not so, there would have been no need for a Reformation.
Agreed.
Quote
That is, the state it was in when those early writings you condemn were written.   ::lookaround::  The Reformer's aim was not to create new doctrines, but to discard those man-made doctrines that an apostate church had added.
I agreed~but, they used Augustine mainly~and Sola scriptures. Not so much of the so-called church fathers after John to Augustine.

I'm stopping since I have a visitor that just showed up. Maybe I'll come back later and finish.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #89 on: Sun Apr 10, 2022 - 17:40:29 »
I do not include Augustine among the early church teachers as not having very much that's profitable. I have enjoyed reading some of his LATTER work, not so much from his earlier work. Have you read his "retractions"? http://www.augnet.org/en/works-of-augustine/writings-of-augustine/2148-the-retractions/ which shows his conversions from his earlier writings.

No, I haven't read Retractions.  I read maybe a quarter of City of God, but found it wearisome with almost no profit (to borrow your phrase).  I did find plenty that needed retraction, though. ::smile::

I would agree that Augustine doesn't belong in a grouping with the early church fathers.  That group are those that came before Constantine/Eusebius/the First Council of Nicaea (325AD).  They are those who spoke Greek natively, read the original Scriptures and handed down the traditions of the apostles.

Augustine, by contrast, was a native Latin-speaker and worked from imperfect translations as well as applying his own rudimentary understanding of Greek to Scripture.  He was separated geographically and culturally from those venerable forebearers.  His work appears to me to be more politically motivated than anything.  If I were to summarize Augustine, I would say that his desire was to reserve all power and authority to the Catholic Church, and he was willing to both add to Scripture and subtract from it to accomplish that aim.

     I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not bid me to do so.
     -St Augustine of Hippo


It is ironic that Luther, Calvin, and the Reformers held Augustine in such reverence.  They sought to reform the abuses of Catholic power and curtail papal authority, but Augustine did more to set up absolute authority for the Catholic Church than almost anyone else.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #90 on: Mon Apr 11, 2022 - 03:34:03 »
     I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not bid me to do so.
     -St Augustine of Hippo


It is ironic that Luther, Calvin, and the Reformers held Augustine in such reverence.  They sought to reform the abuses of Catholic power and curtail papal authority, but Augustine did more to set up absolute authority for the Catholic Church than almost anyone else.
One quick word~What Augustine called the Catholic church is not what we know the Catholic Chruch has grown to be.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 13:31,32~"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."
Pretty simple parable to understand, or at least it should be, especially so in our day.

Calvin and Luther both knew what Augustine meant when referencing the Catholic Church, he was referring to the meaning of the word (Catholic) not the whore she has become to be.

I agree Augustine started out like many of God's children, (even the apostles) with very little knowledge of the truth~that's why he wrote his "Confessions of his Retractions". A book all of us could write if honest with ourselves. Anyone believing now what they did when they first began their Christian journey of faith, are not growing in grace and knowledge of the truth. 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #91 on: Mon Apr 11, 2022 - 10:45:16 »
One quick word~What Augustine called the Catholic church is not what we know the Catholic Church has grown to be.
What Augustine envisioned the Catholic Church to become in City of God, is what it grew to be.  He provided the blueprint.  Except he didn't foresee that investing all authority in heaven and earth in the church would lead to absolute corruption.

I agree Augustine started out like many of God's children, (even the apostles) with very little knowledge of the truth~that's why he wrote his "Confessions of his Retractions". A book all of us could write if honest with ourselves. Anyone believing now what they did when they first began their Christian journey of faith, are not growing in grace and knowledge of the truth.
The problem here is that all the theologians down through the centuries have built on Augustine's earlier work.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #92 on: Mon Apr 11, 2022 - 12:34:40 »
What Augustine envisioned the Catholic Church to become in City of God, is what it grew to be.  He provided the blueprint.  Except he didn't foresee that investing all authority in heaven and earth in the church would lead to absolute corruption.
The problem here is that all the theologians down through the centuries have built on Augustine's earlier work.

Jarrod


Jarrod, you may be correct, since like you, only read a certain portion of the book, mainly the latter, and only a little of that~since the first part was extremely boring to my little mind. I think Calvin thought the same, but he was so much more gifted than I and could consume so much more than I could in a much shorter space of time.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 20, 2022 - 15:39:26 by RB »

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #93 on: Wed Apr 20, 2022 - 10:18:06 »
Quote
Many denominations accept one or more parts of the aforementioned TULIP.

I don't have this experience, though I don't know which denominations that you're talking about.

Growing up in churches, all I ever heard about was "free will" only to find out that there isn't the slightest trace of the theology in Scripture whatsoever.

I should probably put it on my list to actually read Calvin, though. I have a suspicion that a lot of people are likely misrepresenting what he says. As much as I don't really care about defending or opposing theologians or other figures in general, Calvin gets blamed every time people notice a Scripture as simple as when God says "I will harden Pharaoh's heart so that he will not listen . . ." (Exodus 7:3, Exodus 9:12) (and yes I know people love to write essays to drown point-blank statements like that). I suspect that most probably aren't getting his claims straight while they blame him for Scriptures like that.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #94 on: Wed Apr 20, 2022 - 14:49:00 »
What Augustine envisioned the Catholic Church to become in City of God, is what it grew to be.  He provided the blueprint.  Except he didn't foresee that investing all authority in heaven and earth in the church would lead to absolute corruption.
The problem here is that all the theologians down through the centuries have built on Augustine's earlier work.

Jarrod

Very well said Jarrod. And of a truth, the Catholic's also built much of their theology on the doctrines and traditions of the Pharisees, which had also become a profitable religious business. Certainly in the building of shrines of worship, and preachers in long flowing robes, "And many other such things" they did. Traditions which are still the foundation of most of this world's religious businesses.

Fascinating study for sure.

 




Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #95 on: Wed Apr 20, 2022 - 22:03:33 »
Cally:

    "Growing up in churches, all I ever heard about was 'free will' only to find out that there isn't the slightest trace of the theology in Scripture whatsoever."

    "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority" [John 7:17].

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #96 on: Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 03:56:34 »
Cally:

    "Growing up in churches, all I ever heard about was 'free will' only to find out that there isn't the slightest trace of the theology in Scripture whatsoever."

    "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority" [John 7:17].

Kindly,

Buff
Buff, that is true what you have said, but only half truth~God first must give the children of Adam a new heart before they are able to do the will of God.
Quote
Ezekiel 11:19 ~"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
One more:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ezekiel 36:26~"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Until God does this by his power, the same power that brought again from the dead the Lord Jesus Christ, then NO MAN would or could, do the will of God~impossible. To this agrees all of the prophets, apostles, and above all, the Lord Jesus Christ's clear teachings on such doctrines concerning the will of man according to the nature he was born with....... a nature at enmity against its Creator. Man does not come from the womb seeking God~oh no, he comes forth speaking lies and using deceits, and hating everyone except himself.
Quote from: Paul
Titus 3:3~"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another."
And that's just the beginning of how wicked man is by nature~ born with a heart of stone toward heaven and toward his fellowmen.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #97 on: Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 05:52:00 »
Buff, that is true what you have said, but only half truth~God first must give the children of Adam a new heart before they are able to do the will of God.

Not so.  Neither Ezekiel 11:19 nor Ezekiel 36:26 says that God must first give anyone a new heart before they are able to do the will of God.  Moreover, there is not any other verse in either the OT or the NT that says that.