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Offline johntwayne

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Calvinism
« on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 01:26:46 »

Calvinism
Aaron Erhardt

John Calvin (1509-1564) was born in France to Roman Catholic parents. He left Roman Catholicism around 1530 and later fled to Switzerland where he published Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Calvin, who was heavily influenced by the writings of Augustine, became the prominent figure in the development of a system of beliefs later called Calvinism.

The five major tenets of Calvinism are summed up by the acronym TULIP:

TOTAL HEREDITARY DEPRAVITY,
 
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION;

LIMITED ATONEMENT;

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE;

and

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.

The five tenets are mutually dependent and logically connected.

They are all FALSE!

TOTAL HEREDITARY DEPRAVITY   is the belief that man is born in sin with a corrupt nature and unable to do any good.

However, the Bible says “God made man upright” (Eccl. 7:29), “the son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father” (Ezek. 18:20), and “all we like sheep have gone astray” (Is. 53:6, emp. mine).

Furthermore, Paul spoke of some who “by nature” did good (Rom. 2:14), and recalled a time in his life when he was “alive” spiritually apart from the law (Rom. 7:9).

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is the belief that God arbitrarily chose a certain number of people to be saved before the foundation of the world.

However, the Bible says “God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:11), “desires all people to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4), and is “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).

God predestined that those in Christ would be saved (Eph. 1:4). He did not predestine who would be in Christ.

LIMITED ATONEMENT is the belief that Christ died only for the elect.

However, the Bible says Christ “has died for all” (2 Cor. 5:14), tasted death “for everyone” (Heb. 2:9), and is the propitiation “for the sins of the whole world” (1 Jn. 2:2).

IRRESISTIBLE  Grace is the belief that the Holy Spirit miraculously draws the elect to Christ regardless of their desire.

However, the Bible says the gospel “is the power of God for salvation” (Rom. 1:16) and that we are converted “through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:15). The Holy Spirit draws man to Christ though the preached Word, not separate and apart from it.

Furthermore, man has a free will. He can “resist the Holy Spirit” (Acts 7:51) and “quench the Spirit” (1 Thess. 5:19).

PERSEVERANCE of the Saints is the belief that it is impossible for the elect to fall away and be lost.

However, the Bible says that we can “fall” (1 Cor. 10:12), “fall away from the living God” (Heb. 3:12), and “fall by the same sort of disobedience” (Heb. 4:11).

Paul knew that he could be “disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27), and spoke of some who would “depart from the faith” (1 Tim. 4:1).

Likewise, Peter spoke of those who would “turn back from the holy commandment” (2 Pet. 2:21). We even have actual examples of people who fell away: Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11),
Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim. 1:20), Demas (2 Tim. 4:10), and Diotrephes (3 Jn. 9-10).

Salvation is conditioned upon man’s continued obedience. He can fall away!

Calvinism asserts that man is wholly passive in redemption. There is nothing he can do. He is reduced to a robot with no free moral agency.

Furthermore, God is made the ultimate respecter of persons, divine favor becomes divine force, preaching is unnecessary, and scripture is insufficient. Who can believe such a thing?
Calvinism has had a tremendous impact on the religious world. Many denominations accept one or more parts of the aforementioned TULIP.

Therefore, we must teach others that Calvinism is erroneous.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 04:42:35 »
Calvinism has had a tremendous impact on the religious world. Many denominations accept one or more parts of the aforementioned TULIP.

Therefore, we must teach others that Calvinism is erroneous.
johntwayne~you are posting another man's errors, can you not think for yourself? You cannot teach others by what another man believes and certainly cannot defend your beliefs by another man's teaching.  To believe a truth takes a certain amount of understanding, to defend the truth takes much more understanding~I'm convinced you have neither on this subject.

I'm not a Calvinist in the truest sense of Calvinism, but believe they have errors of Arminianism mixed in with the truth they do possess.

By posting this on Calvinism~does this means you are willing to debate this with me? I'm more than willing to do so.

Aaron Erhardt quoted scriptures out of context and without producing any sense to the scriptures he used or I should say.... misused and corrupted to serve his own deceitful and corrupt desire to make man to be his own deciding factor in his salvation from sin and condemnation. WHAT a perversion of God's holy word.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 11:32:43 »
johntwayne~you are posting another man's errors, can you not think for yourself? You cannot teach others by what another man believes and certainly cannot defend your beliefs by another man's teaching.  To believe a truth takes a certain amount of understanding, to defend the truth takes much more understanding~I'm convinced you have neither on this subject.
I know I should probably let johnt respond before I comment.  However, just consider this a bit of a defense of johnt.  If what johnt considers what he believes is what another man has written then there is nothing wrong with posting what the other man produced, particularly if he credited the other man.  He did that.  I find your statement, "to believe a truth takes a certain amount of understanding,...." , more that a little strange given the fact that is not what you claim concerning God's word.  You so often assert that only having first been born again, the action by God independent upon anything having to do with the one being born again, is it possible to have any understanding of God's word, let alone a belief in the truth revealed.

But to your point of not being capable of defending one's belief by another man's teaching, what do you think you are doing by quoting Scripture?  Scripture is, almost universally, another man's teaching, whether it be Paul, or Peter, or John, or......  All of Paul's writings are Paul's teaching, admittedly teaching that he received from the Holy Spirit.  But nonetheless, whenever you quote Paul or any other author of Scripture, you are hoping to defend your beliefs by another man's teaching.
Quote from: RB
I'm not a Calvinist in the truest sense of Calvinism, but believe they have errors of Arminianism mixed in with the truth they do possess.
I know you make that claim often.  But that is all rather beside the point.  For both you and Calvinism begin with the erroneous doctrine of inherited Total Depravity, from which derives all the rest of the erroneous teaching.
Quote from: RB
Aaron Erhardt quoted scriptures out of context and without producing any sense to the scriptures he used or I should say.... misused and corrupted to serve his own deceitful and corrupt desire to make man to be his own deciding factor in his salvation from sin and condemnation. WHAT a perversion of God's holy word.
I would accuse you of doing the exact same thing.  The curious thing is you cannot prove the truth of your accusation about Erhardt and I cannot prove my accusation about you. The only thing that can really be accomplished is to either agree or disagree on the interpretation that each presents in support of his views.  It is that aspect that I think you really do not understand.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 15:29:00 »
Greetings 4WD~I just got in and am too tired to post, but will tomorrow. I got a lot going on now since my house and shop go on the market in two weeks or so. I'm downsizing. I've been so busy lately packing just in case it sells quickly. It's listed at a very high price by the realtors, so not sure it will be a quick sale, we shall see. Then if it sells then I must decide to either build or find one already built that will work for us. We have Sherry's step-father with his large diesel pusher that we have to find a place for that as well wherever we moved to. I have a piece of property that I could build on, just not 100% sure if I want to go through the hassle of doing so.

SO~I'm a busy old man and do not move as fast as I once did.  It's time for a glass of wine. RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 15:29:00 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 23:14:27 »
johntwayne:

    I appreciate your sentiments about Calvinism and agree with the bulk of your viewpoints, although I might have expressed a few of them differently.

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 23:17:27 by Reformer »

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 28, 2022 - 23:14:27 »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 03:53:34 »
John Calvin (1509-1564) was born in France to Roman Catholic parents. He left Roman Catholicism around 1530 and later fled to Switzerland where he published Institutes of the Christian Religion
He left France because of his rejection of Catholicism and his connections with some that began seeking to expose Catholicism. He actually started the Institutes of the Christian Religion in France and later finished the "first" edition  in Geneva. Maybe the greatest work outside of the apostles which he did at the young tender age of twenty-six. No one has to agree with all of the Institutes to appreciate the work that went into this work covering just about every doctrine of the Christian religion.
Quote from: johntwayne on: Yesterday at 01:26:46
Calvin, who was heavily influenced by the writings of Augustine,
I have no clue how much he was influenced by Augustine, what I do know is he highly respected him, yet on some points, disagreed with him from what little I have read~both had a massive about of work left behind more so by John Calvin than Augustine.
Quote from: johntwayne on: Yesterday at 01:26:46
became the prominent figure in the development of a system of beliefs later called Calvinism.
So misleading~John Calvin did not develop any system~he wrote on every subject and was a strong will person in preaching what he considered to be the truth. Actually, Martin Luther was a few years ahead of Calvin and preached the same truth concerning the total depravity of man from birth; unconditional election; they both taught that the atonement was limited to the elect of God. Martin Luther had a debate with a man named Erasmus concerning the bondage of man's will to sin and the devil~see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Bondage_of_the_Will This was done while John Calvin was only fourteen years old, so he never developed the system that goes by his name. He was more of a theologian than Luther was, thereby, his teachings got more attention than Luther's did. There were many before Luther that taught the very same truths that is attached to John Calvin's person.
Quote from: johntwayne on: Yesterday at 01:26:46
TOTAL HEREDITARY DEPRAVITY,
 
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION;

LIMITED ATONEMENT;

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE;

and

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.

The five tenets are mutually dependent and logically connected.

They are all FALSE!
Then prove that each one is false starting with the first one: TOTAL HEREDITARY DEPRAVITYI would first start by asking this all-important question: If man is not born into sin, then why did Jesus had to be conceived by God?
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 8:3~"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
Flesh is condemned in the scriptures as having no good, or the power/ability to do good.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
These words are so clear and powerful that no one can gainsay them to make them say any other thing than what they are clearly teaching us and experience agrees to this witness from heaven concerning our fallen flesh.

Anyone rejecting the total depravity of our flesh rejects the purpose of God sending his only begotten Son into the world and the reason why he did so.

Johntwayne, 4WD, or Reformer care to defend your position?

Offline Rella

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #6 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 07:17:28 »


Anyone rejecting the total depravity of our flesh rejects the purpose of God sending his only begotten Son into the world and the reason why he did so.

Johntwayne, 4WD, or Reformer care to defend your position?

RB... While you wait for a reply from the others.........

Can you explain to me  how Calvin came to his conclusions?

I am not talking about his walking away from the Roman Catholic Church or the reasons for that, but what made him come to his specific conclusions that has transcended the years and his developing a faithful following. Even all these years later.

Can you explain to me where you believe he was specifically wrong, because to the average person reading your posts
YOU seem to be a die hard Calvinist, even though you profess to not be?

Can you tell me why anything he proffered regarding  his insistence of the doctrine of predestination, and his interpretations of Christian teachings should be believed over the individual teachings of say someone like Joseph Smith or Ellen White?

Why should anything he espoused be considered as different then we would any other singular "preacher" who we would consider a cult.... After all, they all find their teachings from the bible.

So he interpreted what he read... opened his mouth... and the Reformation took on a new life.  Why?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 07:40:57 »
Then prove that each one is false starting with the first one: TOTAL HEREDITARY DEPRAVITYI would first start by asking this all-important question: If man is not born into sin, then why did Jesus had to be conceived by God? Flesh is condemned in the scriptures as having no good, or the power/ability to do good.These words are so clear and powerful that no one can gainsay them to make them say any other thing than what they are clearly teaching us and experience agrees to this witness from heaven concerning our fallen flesh.

Anyone rejecting the total depravity of our flesh rejects the purpose of God sending his only begotten Son into the world and the reason why he did so.

Johntwayne, 4WD, or Reformer care to defend your position?
First off, since there is no passage of Scripture that says specifically that man is born with a spirit dead in trespasses and sins, it is really up to you to prove that to be the case. 

Second, you asked, "If man is not born into sin, then why did Jesus had to be conceived by God?"  That is an easy one.  Jesus had to be conceived by God, because He was the Son of God.  How could Jesus be the Son of God if He was conceived by a man? Now He was the "Son of Man" also and therefore He was born of Mary.  He was both human and God; He was conceived by God, born of a woman, i.e., a human.  The idea that sin is passed from father to son is really quite silly.  God devoted the entire chapter 18 in Ezekiel to proclaim that was simply not true. He says in verse 3, "the soul who sins shall die".   There are other passages that show that to be the case also. If need be, we can go into those as well.

Third, you said, "Flesh is condemned in the scriptures as having no good, or the power/ability to do good." That is correct.  However, it is important to understand what is meant by "good" in that statement. I assume the passage that you are referring to is, among others, Romans 3:9-20; specifically in verse 12 we read, "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.". The first thing that we note there is that what is stated there is an action by the individual, namely, they "have turned aside".  That is clearly something they have done themselves and not something done by anyone else, even Adam as you would claim.

Paul also says there, "no one does good". In verse 10, Paul notes that "it is written" Most agree that he is referring, perhaps among others, to Psalms 14. "good" there refers to acts of obedience to God and acts of kindness toward one's fellow men. This does not mean that no one ever does acts of kindness; rather in means that no one aways does acts of kindness.  There is no one who does good and only good. No one does good in the absolute sense of good as God is good.  That follows in the same line as verse 10 where Paul says that "none are righteous". Clearly Paul is stating that none are righteous in the absolute sense.  He does not and would not say that nothing anyone ever does is good.

We must understand that when the Bible speaks of "righteousness" or "good", there is the absolute righteousness and good of God and there is the relative righteousness of man, an imperfect righteousness.  There is the righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God. We can delve more deeply into that also if there is a need.

This all speaks to the depravity of man, but nowhere is there a description of total depravity as Calvin or Augustine have proclaimed.

Quote from: RB
Anyone rejecting the total depravity of our flesh rejects the purpose of God sending his only begotten Son into the world and the reason why he did so.
That is absolutely wrong.  If there was one who was perfect in every way save he had committed one and only one sin and that towards the end of his life, then he would need God's redemption.

As I have noted several times here at the forum, the concept of Total Depravity is the idea that God is incapable of speaking understandably to a sinner; with a sinner being one who had not been born again; and that is foolish.  That would mean that Jesus, also was incapable of speaking comprehensively to a sinner.  But the Gospels are full of examples of Jesus doing just that.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 10:40:19 »
Can you explain to me  how Calvin came to his conclusions?
You are asking a question with a very large brush. Come to his conclusion as to what? You can read what he believes by using google on any subject/scripture you desire to know as far as what he believed on this or that, etc. He has a complete commentary on most scriptures in the Bible except Revelation.

Again, John Calvin did not set out to defend what is known as Calvinism, from his many works men have themselves come up with the acronym Tulip. The theology of Calvinism has been immortalized in the acronym TULIP by his enemies.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:17:28
but what made him come to his specific conclusions that has transcended the years and his developing a faithful following. Even all these years later.
Please read again what I said above:
Quote from:  RB on: Today at 03:53:34
So misleading~John Calvin did not develop any system~he wrote on every subject and was a strong will person in preaching what he considered to be the truth. Actually, Martin Luther was a few years ahead of Calvin and preached the same truth concerning the total depravity of man from birth; unconditional election; they both taught that the atonement was limited to the elect of God. Martin Luther had a debate with a man named Erasmus concerning the bondage of man's will to sin and the devil~see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Bondage_of_the_Will This was done while John Calvin was only fourteen years old, so he never developed the system that goes by his name. He was more of a theologian than Luther was, thereby, his teachings got more attention than Luther's did. There were many before Luther that taught the very same truths that is attached to John Calvin's person.
The Pharisees accused Christ of starting a sect called Nazarenes.
Quote
Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:"
Calling God's Elect by certain names is nothing new. Neither Jesus Christ, nor Paul, preach any other doctrines than what was ALREADY in the holy scriptures~and "overall", neither did John Calvin
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:17:28
Can you explain to me where you believe he was specifically wrong, because to the average person reading your posts YOU seem to be a die hard Calvinist, even though you profess to not be?
You believe that because you do not understand Calvinism in its truest form. I'm what is known as a high Clavinsit, or if you will, hyper~since we do not believe in means is used by God to regenerate his elect. I'm not going into this now for time's sake but could explain this in length if you need me to do so. Besides, we do not believe in infant baptism, a doctrine that they brought out of the RCC. There are more, but enough. Regardless of any differences, we still honour them (Luther and Calvin and others) for their love of God and their life spent serving him. We consider ourselves of being unworthy of even carrying water for these men of God. So much could be said, but enough.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:17:28
Can you tell me why anything he proffered regarding his insistence of the doctrine of predestination, and his interpretations of Christian teachings should be believed over the individual teachings of say someone like Joseph Smith or Ellen White?
Rella, we try the spirits BY THE WORD OF GOD, and in doing so, it becomes clear who spoke on the behalf of God and he did not. Your question is really not a wise question. 1st John 4:1  No man's doctrine is without error, but when we judge their overall teaching it will be clear who had the Spirit of God in them and who had the spirit of the Wicked One working through them.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:17:28
Why should anything he espoused be considered as different then we would any other singular "preacher" who we would consider a cult.... After all, they all find their teachings from the bible.
Christians live by every word of God and they are known for being noble in their search for truth, and they try spirits with the holy scriptures, they by faith love those they believe speaks according to the scriptures and reject those they believe are speaking against the testimony of God~it's just that simple.
Quote
So he interpreted what he read... opened his mouth... and the Reformation took on a new life.
Actually it started before Calvin~by his father in the faith~Martin Luther...who nailed Ninety-five Theses or Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences was a list of propositions for an academic disputation written in and nailed to the door of the church 1517~Calvin was only around seven years old at the time. But There were others before and during that time~read the church history of others who were killed~Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Also, read https://www.amazon.com/trail-blood-J-M-Carroll/dp/1543258107. There were Christians that believed in ALL POINTS of what is known as Calvinism hundreds of years before John Calvin.

Forgive me of rushing through this, I just came home for lunch and heading back out.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 10:40:19 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #9 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 11:50:24 »
Your question is really not a wise question. 1st John 4:1

 rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

An expected comment.

I know what he believes. I was just curious as to how he came to those beliefs.

I do not need to read his commentaries as they do not tell how he comes to his conclusions.

"He was more of a theologian than Luther was, thereby, his teachings got more attention than Luther's did."

So I am safe in assuming that his teachings were from what others taught.  As are yours.

Thank you

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #10 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 13:37:04 »
Again, John Calvin did not set out to defend what is known as Calvinism, from his many works men have themselves come up with the acronym Tulip. The theology of Calvinism has been immortalized in the acronym TULIP by his enemies.
I don't know who created the acronym, but Calvinism has embraced it.  I was taught TULIP by that name by the Dutch Reformed Church.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #11 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 14:48:32 »
I know what he believes.
Sadly, you do not~yet folks are quick to believe others concerning what he taught. Rella, I do not know all of Calvin's teachings, as his works are massive, and it would take years of reading in order to comprehend what he taught on different subjects. He did teach unconditional election by grace, that much it very clear, but he was just one voice, of so many back then~ all of the reformers taught the same without an exception. They were not alone, for the Baptists were much clearer on their understanding of regeneration than John Calvin~I KNOW for I have read behind many of them. Others besides them from the Church of England......  to the Anglican....John Newton, (born July 24, 1725, London, England—died December 21, 1807, London), English slave trader who became an Anglican minister, a hymn writer, and later a noted abolitionist, best known for his hymn “Amazing Grace.” His transformation from a faithless seaman to a man of deep faith~to the Conregationist (Jonathan Edwards), on and on we could go.  So many of that time would fail me to mention all of them~yet not all of them believe the scriptures on every point the same, but when it came to Soteriology overall they all believe in the doctrine of unconditional Salvation~which separated them from others.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 11:50:24
I do not need to read his commentaries as they do not tell how he comes to his conclusions.
Well, let Christ speak on this subject you are referencing.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him".
When one comes to the scriptures to learn them as a little child, just as Solomon first did, then the Spirit of God will reveal the truth to them. Reject truth and one's heart will forever be hardened toward truth.
Quote from: Rellaon: Today at 11:50:24
So I am safe in assuming that his teachings were from what others taught.  As are yours.
Your position is not safe~IF you leave the Spirit of God out of the work of revelation to our hearts~we do learn from others, IF God grants us an understanding heart with anointed eyes and ears. 
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:18,19~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,"
All lovers of the truth say~AMEN and AMEN.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 14:52:44 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #12 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 15:00:40 »
I don't know who created the acronym, but Calvinism has embraced it.  I was taught TULIP by that name by the Dutch Reformed Church.
Oh, I agree~they are strong up in Michagan~around the Grand Rapids area I think.  One of the first books on Revelation that opened my eyes more was written by Herman Hoseksma    I have a copy that I got many, many years ago.  https://spindleworks.com/library/hoeksma/intro.htm

It has been many, many years ago since I have read it, so cannot remember very much other than I enjoyed it at the time of reading it.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 15:03:20 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #13 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 18:10:03 »
JOHN CALVIN & FREE WILL

    “If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior work of regeneration, then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.”From a Calvinist friend.

    As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is “regenerated.” A few Calvinists I have encountered claim he must be born again before he can come to the Lord.

    If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven’s messages. Jesus clearly says a man may choose whether or not to obey God. But how may he choose unless he is endowed with free will? He cannot. Note Jesus’ words in John 7:17. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...”

    I could easily insert a whole bushel of heaven’s words to confirm the fact that mankind has a will to choose or reject. For if he does not possess a will to choose or reject, he is nothing more than a programmed robot. Remove human responsibility from the equation and you have a Bible that makes no sense. If when Jesus said “he who has ears to hear let him hear” they were not free to hear [respond], He would be talking nonsense. He was amazed at the disbelief of some because He well knew they could have and should have believed [Mark 6:6].

    Remember the story Jesus gave of the son who was in a swine pen far from his father and far from home—lost, which is worse than death. At this point in the story Jesus pays a compliment to the human race in saying that the prodigal “came to himself.” That indicates that Jesus did not believe in total hereditary depravity. Jesus believed the wayward lad in the pig pen had enough good left in him that he could do something about his predicament. He could have a change of heart, turn his life around, and return home. This is what he did when “he came to himself.”

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 18:22:50 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #14 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 20:24:47 »
JOHN CALVIN & FREE WILL

    “If you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior work of regeneration, then free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.”From a Calvinist friend.

    As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is “regenerated.” A few Calvinists I have encountered claim he must be born again before he can come to the Lord.

    If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven’s messages. Jesus clearly says a man may choose whether or not to obey God. But how may he choose unless he is endowed with free will? He cannot. Note Jesus’ words in John 7:17. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...”

    I could easily insert a whole bushel of heaven’s words to confirm the fact that mankind has a will to choose or reject. For if he does not possess a will to choose or reject, he is nothing more than a programmed robot. Remove human responsibility from the equation and you have a Bible that makes no sense. If when Jesus said “he who has ears to hear let him hear” they were not free to hear [respond], He would be talking nonsense. He was amazed at the disbelief of some because He well knew they could have and should have believed [Mark 6:6].

    Remember the story Jesus gave of the son who was in a swine pen far from his father and far from home—lost, which is worse than death. At this point in the story Jesus pays a compliment to the human race in saying that the prodigal “came to himself.” That indicates that Jesus did not believe in total hereditary depravity. Jesus believed the wayward lad in the pig pen had enough good left in him that he could do something about his predicament. He could have a change of heart, turn his life around, and return home. This is what he did when “he came to himself.”

Buff
I was in agreement up til the bolded phrase.  Can I nitpick?

I don't think the prodigal found the good inside himself.  It was about the recognition that there was a way and a plan that came from outside himself, and submission to his Father's plan instead of his own will.

That's still a choice he made.  But he didn't find inherent goodness in himself.  He found salvation in accepting a rule that came from outside himself.

Jarrod

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #15 on: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 21:00:01 »
Jarrod:

   Well at least he had enough good in himself to realize "there was a way and a plan that came from outside himself, and submission to his Father's plan instead of his own will."

    And while I'm at it, let me say I was somewhat reluctant to even post the above considering all of us have "whipped this subject to death"—over and over "until the cows have come home" and left again. Therefore, I probably won't write anything more on this worn-out topic.

    I don't think one mind has been changed, and I know of no one who has been converted to an opposite course. We can fiddle-diddle all day and all year but still retain our doctrinal precepts on free will or enslaved will. Perhaps it would be wise to bury this topic and give it a gloomy funeral.

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 21:02:42 by Reformer »

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #16 on: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 02:58:52 »
Well at least he had enough good in himself to realize "there was a way and a plan that came from outside himself, and submission to his Father's plan instead of his own will."

    And while I'm at it, let me say I was somewhat reluctant to even post the above considering all of us have "whipped this subject to death"—over and over "until the cows have come home" and left again. Therefore, I probably won't write anything more on this worn-out topic.

    I don't think one mind has been changed, and I know of no one who has been converted to an opposite course. We can fiddle-diddle all day and all year but still retain our doctrinal precepts on free will or enslaved will. Perhaps it would be wise to bury this topic and give it a gloomy funeral.

Kindly,

Buff
As long as there are men like you who believe contrary to the testimony of God, there will be voices speaking forth the truth and resisting your corruption of God's word on this all-important subject.

So, you truly believe you had some good within yourself before Christ found you? Do you know how your one statement goes contrary to God's testimony of even righteous people according to their flesh? I could spend a lot of time here proving just how corrupt your one statement is, and may come back to it later, but I want to address 4WD's post first.

Bluff, you are proving to me you know very little of God's word by boasting of such a statement. For now:
Quote from: Paul the apostle of Jesus Christ
Romans 7:18~"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
I think you have the same flesh Paul had that he received from Papa Adam. So, why are you boasting of man's goodness before God regenerating him?
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 03:03:44 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #17 on: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 04:04:43 »
First off, since there is no passage of Scripture that says specifically that man is born with a spirit dead in trespasses and sins, it is really up to you to prove that to be the case. 
4WD~Hear the word of God.....
Quote from: THE LORD GOD
Genesis 2:15-17~"And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam died spiritually the very second he disobeyed God~and we were IN Adam and he acted on our behalf according to God's ordained plan~a very wise plan btw. When Adam sinned we sinned IN HIM and when he died we shared in that death which is passed down to all of Adam's posterity. We all are born in Adam's likeness, that's in his SINFUL FLESH likeness. First:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
1st Corinthians 15:21,22~"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Adam was created in God's image~he lost that image through disobedience~Adam's seed after him are born in his likeness.....
Quote from: MOSES
Genesis 5:3~"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"
Which could only mean his SINFUL FLESH LIKENESS~no longer after the image of God~when one is born again he is recreated in the image of Jesus Christ~this is not too deep, it just takes faith in God's word to believe and accept it.

All of Adam's children are dead in trespasses and sin which is the CAUSE of their death!
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:1~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
Spiritual death is nothing else than the alienation of the soul from God, we are all born as dead men, and we live as dead men, until we are made partakers of the life of Christ~ agreeably to the words of our Lord:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 5:25~"The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live."
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 5:21"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."
Bottom line~regardless what you may think constitutes a sinner being dead~the SAME POWER is needed that God used in raising up his Son from being dead in his body! So, the likeness is basically THE SAME! 
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ephesians 1:18-20~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
It is hard for you to kick against the prick with these scriptures that clearly compares us being raised from the dead to the same power God used to raise Jesus from the dead~so, the two deaths are very similar in needing the SAME power to give life!
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:40:57
Second, you asked, "If man is not born into sin, then why did Jesus had to be conceived by God?"  That is an easy one.  Jesus had to be conceived by God, because He was the Son of God.
That's not why, by the fact he was made him so, the reason why is NO SAVIOUR could come through the first Adam's generation, or through his blood line. Jesus' blood (life) was the blood of God he was conceived by Him!
Quote
Acts 20:28~"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
His pure and sinless life which he could not have been through the first Adam's generation.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:40:57
Third, you said, "Flesh is condemned in the scriptures as having no good, or the power/ability to do good." That is correct.  However, it is important to understand what is meant by "good" in that statement. I assume the passage that you are referring to is, among others, Romans 3:9-20; specifically in verse 12 we read, "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.". The first thing that we note there is that what is stated there is an action by the individual, namely, they "have turned aside".  That is clearly something they have done themselves and not something done by anyone else, even Adam as you would claim.

Paul also says there, "no one does good". In verse 10, Paul notes that "it is written" Most agree that he is referring, perhaps among others, to Psalms 14. "good" there refers to acts of obedience to God and acts of kindness toward one's fellow men. This does not mean that no one ever does acts of kindness; rather in means that no one aways does acts of kindness.  There is no one who does good and only good. No one does good in the absolute sense of good as God is good.  That follows in the same line as verse 10 where Paul says that "none are righteous". Clearly Paul is stating that none are righteous in the absolute sense.  He does not and would not say that nothing anyone ever does is good.

We must understand that when the Bible speaks of "righteousness" or "good", there is the absolute righteousness and good of God and there is the relative righteousness of man, an imperfect righteousness.  There is the righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God. We can delve more deeply into that also if there is a need.

This all speaks to the depravity of man, but nowhere is there a description of total depravity as Calvin or Augustine have proclaimed.
No you are so wrong, it means what it said~Paul is not debating or rejecting sinless perfection, he rejecting any ounce of any good in any man! You should be ashamed of laboring to twist God's word to support your false doctrine of man not being as wicked as the scriptures declare him to be.
Quote
Romans 3:10-18~"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
One more:
Quote
Genesis 6:5~"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
This goes totally against what you try to prove, but you failed before God's testimony.

Enough for now~RB
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 04:08:50 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #18 on: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 06:15:19 »
4WD~Hear the word of God.....Adam died spiritually the very second he disobeyed God~
Yes, Adam died spiritually the very second he disobeyed God.  That is the truth.

Quote from: RB
and we were IN Adam and he acted on our behalf according to God's ordained plan~a very wise plan btw. When Adam sinned we sinned IN HIM and when he died we shared in that death which is passed down to all of Adam's posterity. We all are born in Adam's likeness, that's in his SINFUL FLESH likeness.
You have made that assertion several times in the past.  It is pure nonsense. Frankly, I couldn't even imagine what you mean by that. It is word salad that makes no rational sense whatsoever.  It is a construct that is to be found nowhere in scripture. Once again, you get things all screwed up with your traducianism. There is no rational explanation of how an immaterial spirit could be generated through an entirely physical process. There is no physical evidence of such a thing and there is no biblical description of that happening.  Your reference of 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 is misapplied to this subject.  Clearly it is speaking of physical death and resurrection. The phrase there, "in Adam" simply means "being human".  It is not about the condition of the human spirit.  We know this because it occurs for all, every last person.  This is consistent with Jesus' statement in John 5:28-29  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Quote from: RB
First: Adam was created in God's image~he lost that image through disobedience~
There is not one passage of scripture that says that Adam lost God's image when he sinned. As I have pointed out so many times in the past, if that is true then God's statement in Genesis 9:6 is superfluous. If your claim is true that man, after Adam, no longer is in God's image, then there is no reason to ever impose capital punishment on the murderer of another human being. I think the whole question here is what is God's image in which man was created. I will simply say it is the spirit of man that separates him from the rest of the animal kingdom.  Man does not loose that spirit when he sins. Even when he sins the spirit remains even if it has been tarnished to the point that God calls it dead; dead here meaning separated in some sense from God Himself. But the spirit remains. We could get into a discussion about what is that image, that likeness, that is spoken of.  Perhaps later.

Quote from: RB
Adam's seed after him are born in his likeness..... Which could only mean his SINFUL FLESH LIKENESS~no longer after the image of God~when one is born again he is recreated in the image of Jesus Christ~this is not too deep, it just takes faith in God's word to believe and accept it.
That conept which you have laid out is truly bazaar. If what you proclaim here is the description of no longer after the image of God, then please tell me what Paul meant when he said, For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3) You have declared that "in the likeness of sinful flesh" means no longer after the image of God. Your claim here is that Jesus was born in sin, that Jesus partook of Adam's sin when he was born.  That is so wrong.  I will stop here for now because all the rest of your post relies upon the erroneous concept of every human being having lost the image of God when Adam sinned.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #19 on: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 12:52:14 »
4WD:

    "I think the whole question here is what is God's image in which man was created. I will simply say it is the spirit of man that separates him from the rest of the animal kingdom.  Man does not loose that spirit when he sins. Even when he sins the spirit remains even if it has been tarnished to the point that God calls it dead; dead here meaning separated in some sense from God Himself. But the spirit remains."

    A big AMEN plus! This coincides with Romans 7:18, where it says no good is found in man's flesh. But there is some good in his spirit, the real man, otherwise he could not reach out for the Lord. Jesus must have thought so, considering John 7:17.

    Occasionally, I will offer a compliment, but no more long, drawn-out discussion on this topic for me, as I noted yesterday.

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 12:56:59 by Reformer »

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #20 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 04:28:24 »
4WD:

    "I think the whole question here is what is God's image in which man was created. I will simply say it is the spirit of man that separates him from the rest of the animal kingdom.  Man does not loose that spirit when he sins. Even when he sins the spirit remains even if it has been tarnished to the point that God calls it dead; dead here meaning separated in some sense from God Himself. But the spirit remains."

    A big AMEN plus!
Reformer~ I'll take up the question with 4WD, but to keep your inflated ego from growing too large I will only say this for now: It is not our spirit that was created after the image of God~that belief is strictly based on assumption rather than the testimony of God.

When it is said a man was created after the image of God, it simply means we were created in and with knowledge, wisdom, understanding, righteousness and true holiness~we know this by understanding what constitutes the new birth where one is recreated after the image of Jesus Christ per Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10, etc.

It amazes me that someone with your age and long time professing Christ you do not understand this simple truth and simple it is.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 12:52:14
This coincides with Romans 7:18, where it says no good is found in man's flesh. But there is some good in his spirit, the real man, otherwise he could not reach out for the Lord. Jesus must have thought so, considering John 7:17.
Reformer, to say your bible understanding is lacking would be a understatement especially so for someone who is confident you are a guide of the blind, a light to them that sit in darkness, and an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, yet you are not teaching yourself! 
Quote from: Paul
Romans 2:19-21~"And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?"
When the scriptures said there is no good in the flesh, it includes man's heart where all of his thoughts, lust, actions spring from~and you cannot separate man's heart from his spirit. Man's literal flesh is nothing more than the house in which he lives~or his spirit/heart/mind~it is where there is no good thing by nature.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 12:52:14
Occasionally, I will offer a compliment, but no more long, drawn-out discussion on this topic for me, as I noted yesterday.
Your compliments hinders the truth more than support the truth as I just proved. You are complimenting error, not truth. 

I could have said much more, but there's a thread where we go into depth concerning soul, spirit and body.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 12:52:14
This coincides with Romans 7:18, where it says no good is found in man's flesh. But there is some good in his spirit, the real man,
Prove your position with scriptures. You cannot and neither can 4WD.

One more thing~listen carefully to your statement which I just quoted and consider how much sense your statement makes~"But there is some good in his spirit, the real man"...so, according to you the real man is NOT wicked and can submit to the word of God contrary to Paul's teaching on this very subject!
Quote from: Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ
Romans 8:5-8~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Your teaching has placed you at enmity against God's word~a very dangerous place to be.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 04:41:11 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #21 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:00:27 »
Reformer~ I'll take up the question with 4WD,
I await anxiously for your response.  It should be interesting.

Quote from: RB
It is not our spirit that was created after the image of God~that belief is strictly based on assumption rather than the testimony of God.

When it is said a man was created after the image of God, it simply means we were created in and with knowledge, wisdom, understanding, righteousness and true holiness~we know this by understanding what constitutes the new birth where one is recreated after the image of Jesus Christ per Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10, etc.
I am really surprised by your response here.  What do you think knowledge, wisdom, understanding, righteousness and holiness is?  That is man's spirit.  When it is said that a man was created after the image of God, it simply means that in creating man God gave him a spirit.  It is in man's spirit formed in him by God Himself that man is in the image, the likeness, of God. It is in man's spirit that resides knowledge, wisdom, understanding, righteousness and holiness.  That is what separates man from the whole rest of the animal kingdom.

I respond to you with your own statement to Reformer:
Quote
It amazes me that someone with your age and long time professing Christ you do not understand this simple truth and simple it is.
It is clear that you do not know what the spirit of a man is. And I surmise that is, at least in part, why you do not really understand the what it means for man being dead in trespasses and sins and do not really understand what it means to be born again.

I would suggest that you consider the following:

http://www.bibleabookoftruth.com/ExplainingTheSpiritOfMan.pdf

I don't agree with the article completely, but it does present a well rounded explanation of the spirit of man made in the likeness of God.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #22 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 07:49:26 »
Yes, Adam died spiritually the very second he disobeyed God.  That is the truth.
All agree with this point. But, I said this to put emphasis on that which followed, which you rejected which is....
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Does this clause teach in connection with the previous clause and so death passed upon all men that all men die because they sinned themselves or because they sinned in Adam by representation?

Both points of doctrine are true, because both are in the Bible; but what is taught here?

Heresy can start by using a verse to teach a true doctrine that the verse does not teach. All men have sinned and earned the wages of death themselves (6:23; James 1:15; Ezekiel 18:4).

All men will die by virtue of their relationship to Adam and his sin (5:14-19; Ist Corinthians 15:22).

It is a fact all men have sinned themselves, and it is a fact that the wages of every sin of every man is death, but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here.

As so often, the contextual lesson should guide our choice for the sense of words or clauses. Before leaving the verse to look at its context, the internal argument by the as…so construction is definitive and final~death passed on all men by the sin of one man.

The adverb construction of “as … so” indicates “in this manner” sin and death came upon all men, by the one man Adam and his one sin in Eden. All men have sinned by imputation of Adam’s sin.

“For that all have sinned” is not your sins, but rather the sin of Adam that passed death on you. How do we know this? By reading past the parentheses, where we can find 5:18-19 drawing this very conclusion from 5:12. It was one man’s disobedience~Adam’s, that made many sinners.

Each member of the human race is legally guilty and punishable for eating the forbidden fruit. We truly sinned in Adam, so we bear the sentence of that crime (and “so” death passed on us).

The death under consideration, by looking ahead in the passage, is primarily legal condemnation. We are sinners in Adam both naturally (Genesis 5:3; Eccl 7:29) and legally (Romans 5:18; Hebrews 7:9-10).

Each member of the human race is legally guilty and punishable for eating the forbidden fruit. Sinners became such “together” with Adam in his single act of rebellion and sin (Romans 3:13).

Adam originally bore God’s image; we now bear his fallen image (Genesis 5:1-3; Ist Corinthians 15:49). We are conceived and born with a totally corrupt nature (Psalms 51:5; 58:3; Romans 3:9-19; Ephesians 2:1-3).

Grammatically, a reader can proceed directly to 5:18, where Paul takes up after his parenthesis. By running past the parenthesis, the doctrine of representation by one man is clearly seen. The conclusion of 5:18, by virtue of “therefore,” proves “for that all have sinned” is Adam’s sin. But there is value in the parenthetical section, for it contains further proofs and some jewels! The argument throughout is obviously of one man representing all or many and the action and consequences of the one man being applied and imputed to the all or many (5:12-19). Why would Paul belabor the point of one man and one sin making many sinners and condemning them all to death, if he only intended the general doctrine of sin in mankind? By temporarily ignoring the parentheses (5:13-17), which is expected in such constructions to follow the direct line of reasoning, the doctrine of representation is clearly seen, which is the legal headship and consequences of one acting for many, for 5:18-19 draws the conclusion from 5:12 without the distraction of explanatory material.

Paul immediately taught that men died without sinning like Adam themselves (5:13-14). He then argued that it was the offence of one that brought death upon the many (5:15). He then argued that it was one who sinned and brought condemnation on many (5:16). He argued once again that it was one offence by one man that gave death the rule (5:17). He concluded, by the obvious use of therefore, that judgment to condemnation was by one man’s one offence, which is entirely consistent with everything in the passage (5:18). He summed up the lesson by declaring it was one man’s disobedience that made many others sinners (5:19), which answers the question at hand, how is it that all have sinned?

What figure is there of Christ, if Adam sinned and died for it himself, and each man has sinned and died because of his own sins? Should we conclude from that figure that Jesus secured His own righteousness by obedience, and we are to follow suit and do the same?

Did Adam merely introduce sin into the world … and Jesus introduced righteousness, or is there a much greater doctrine here of representation and imputation?

We totally reject any concept of cooperative, sympathetic, or consequential righteousness with Jesus Christ for our justification! We also reject any such relationship in the figure.

The doctrine of original sin is not a sacred cow that we must protect, for we would reject it in one minute, if we thought it contrary to scripture; but we are slaves to the entire context, and the entire context speaks of one man’s disobedience being imputed to the whole race, just as the Man Christ Jesus’ obedience is imputed to God’s elect.

What about the actual words in the clause? Does the Spirit’s use of that agree with our conclusion? Context usually determines grammar, not the other way around, especially in the use of such words as that, which have many varied grammatical uses e.g. conjunction, demonstrative pronoun, demonstrative adjective, demonstrative adverb, or relative pronoun.

When Paul wrote of all men sinning themselves, he wrote, “For all have sinned” (3:23). But the text does not say, “For all have sinned,” because there is a demonstrative pronoun that placed in the clause by the Holy Spirit that demands a sense of all men sinning in agreement with what has already been stated … “for by one man’s sin all have sinned,” or … “for in this manner all have sinned,” or … “for by this means all have sinned,” etc.

What may we conclude about the doctrine of representation taught here in this clause? If you were not to sin yourself, you would still be guilty as a sinner and condemned to the complete punishment of sin through your participation by representation in Adam’s sin. All men are sinners in Adam naturally (Genesis 5:3; Eccl 7:29) and legally (5:18; Hebrews 7:9-10).

Each one of the human race is legally guilty and punishable for eating the forbidden fruit. God’s covenant relationship with Adam, though not revealed in Genesis 2-3, is demanded by the contrasts and comparisons in this context and elsewhere (Romans 5:12-19; Ist Corinthians 15:22,45). There should be no surprise due to the progressive revelation of scripture. Sinners became such “together” with Adam in his single act of rebellion (Romans 3:13).

This doctrine and passage reveal a concept and extent of sin and punishment that most Christians do not grasp, for it exalts God’s sovereignty higher than most can conceive or even desire to see.  This doctrine and passage reveal a God so sovereign that He created you even after you were already sealed as a guilty and condemned sinner, doomed to death in three ways.

How can this be fair? The question is out of place (Romans 9:20), but Adam was by far the best of our race with the least required of him. It was more than fair. Was Jesus guilty by relationship to Adam? Was He legally a sinner before God in His own Person? No. He took our human nature, but God was His Father, for He was conceived and born of a woman without legal connection to Adam.

It is important to keep the two related doctrines separated~original sin and total depravity. It is a fact that we have a totally depraved sin nature from Adam (Psalms 51:5; 58:3; John 3:6; Romans 3:9-19; Ephesians 2:1-3; etc.), but that is not the point of this phrase, verse, or passage at all.

Why do some good men argue weakly that there is nothing here of original sin? We can only speculate. Must they cover a false doctrine of salvation like baptismal regeneration, the age of accountability, or related heresies? We can only speculate. Are they terrified by the God so sovereign that He can choose their birth into a race already completely condemned by the sin of their first father? We can only speculate. Are they intimidated to answer mothers of infants that died? We can only speculate. Are they afraid to admit the corollary of the doctrine ~ that Jesus Christ has saved a covenant people as unconditionally as Adam condemned them?

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #23 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 08:57:26 »
Limited Atonement is a real thing whether you agree with the Calvinist position or not.  If atonement wasn't limited, it would be universal, and it isn't.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #24 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 09:10:13 »
All agree with this point. But, I said this to put emphasis on that which followed, which you rejected which is....Does this clause teach in connection with the previous clause and so death passed upon all men that all men die because they sinned themselves or because they sinned in Adam by representation?
Because they sinned in Adam by representation? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I am off to the dentist right now, but I will come back and deal with the rest of your post later.  For now, I will just say that your very idea that God would impute the sins of one person to another person is outright heresy.  It is to malign God's honesty, justice, grace, holiness, etc.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #25 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 09:17:43 »
Limited Atonement is a real thing whether you agree with the Calvinist position or not.  If atonement wasn't limited, it would be universal, and it isn't.
It is universally available (John 1:29; 1 John 2:2).  The limitation is not imposed by God, but by the disbeliever.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #26 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 09:36:27 »
It is universally available (John 1:29; 1 John 2:2).  The limitation is not imposed by God, but by the disbeliever.

Not all have it available.  There are those who do not hear the gospel.  Salvation is by God's grace through faith.  Those who don't have the Son, don't have the father.  Faith comes by hearing, not all have hearing available.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #27 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 11:28:08 »
Limited Atonement is a real thing whether you agree with the Calvinist position or not.  If atonement wasn't limited, it would be universal, and it isn't.
It's more like Conditional Atonement.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #28 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:00:55 »
I am off to the dentist right now, but I will come back and deal with the rest of your post later.
Why do you not mail them in and save you a trip?  ::smile::

Same here I'm too busy today to answer this:
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 07:00:27
It is clear that you do not know what the spirit of a man is. And I surmise that is, at least in part, why you do not really understand the what it means for man being dead in trespasses and sins and do not really understand what it means to be born again.
But, believe me, I WILL!

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #29 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:11:49 »
Because they sinned in Adam by representation? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I am off to the dentist right now, but I will come back and deal with the rest of your post later.  For now, I will just say that your very idea that God would impute the sins of one person to another person is outright heresy.  It is to malign God's honesty, justice, grace, holiness, etc.


Well, let's say for now, by your statement, that you do not have a biblical understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not even close to Mr. 4WD.  Truly, of many, many scriptures. But, that's the end result of your salvation plan by man contributing to his salvation.

With your plan, more than 80% of professing Christians in our day would agree with you~wereas, many Christians in the past until around the 1800s would agree with us. What does that tell you? It should speak volumes to you, but sadly it will not.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #30 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:12:14 »
Because they sinned in Adam by representation? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I am off to the dentist right now, but I will come back and deal with the rest of your post later.  For now, I will just say that your very idea that God would impute the sins of one person to another person is outright heresy.  It is to malign God's honesty, justice, grace, holiness, etc.


Well, let's say for now, by your statement, that you do not have a biblical understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not even close to Mr. 4WD.  Truly, of many, many scriptures. But, that's the end result of your salvation plan by man contributing to his salvation.

With your plan, more than 80% of professing Christians in our day would agree with you~wereas, many Christians in the past until around the 1800s would agree with us. What does that tell you? It should speak volumes to you, but sadly it will not.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #31 on: Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 15:51:09 »
RB:

    "It amazes me that someone with your age and long time professing Christ you do not understand this simple truth and simple it is."

    I'm not the author of the above accusation. It was made by RB in Reply #20 and addressed to me. I'm only returning it to the one who made it and suggesting he apply it to himself, for anyone, I mean anyone, who disagrees with him on any doctrinal matter "does not understand simple truth."

    I don't think the scriptures advance the idea that mere man is capable of possessing a state of perfection in his biblical tutoring. Read that again, RB.

Buff

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #32 on: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 03:25:34 »
RB:

    "It amazes me that someone with your age and long time professing Christ you do not understand this simple truth and simple it is."

    I'm not the author of the above accusation. It was made by RB in Reply #20 and addressed to me. I'm only returning it to the one who made it and suggesting he apply it to himself, for anyone, I mean anyone, who disagrees with him on any doctrinal matter "does not understand simple truth."

    I don't think the scriptures advance the idea that mere man is capable of possessing a state of perfection in his biblical tutoring. Read that again, RB.

Buff


Never said a man is capable of possessing a state of perfection, and have quite often said the opposite~but your statement revealed a lot about your shallow understanding of simple truths that are the first principles in the school of Christ for true seekers of the truth.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 5:12-6:3~"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."
It is impossible to continue renewing professing Christians in the first principles of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, a sin that so many preachers are guilty of~once a person has been instructed in those areas, then the church MUST MOVE ON to stronger meat of the word of God, and stop wasting precious time of feeding people milk of the word~ Especially so older profess believers.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #33 on: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 04:35:47 »
I am really surprised by your response here. 
I'm surprised that you are surprised! After, I used scriptures to support my teaching, by using Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10. What did you use to support your position? Not one thing, but your own words that did not make any scriptural sense and could not be supported by the testimony of God. You said these words:
Quote from: 4WD Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 07:00:27
What do you think knowledge, wisdom, understanding, righteousness and holiness is?  That is man's spirit.
Briefly.....Those are attributes of God's Spirit, which attributes are infinite. Attributes and a spirit are not one and the same as you believe and want others to believe as well.

Attribute is a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something. The spirit of man is MORE connected to the heart of man, where his thoughts, lust, actions are determined and put into motion.

God's Spirit is eternal both ways~man's spirit is not eternal regardless of what folks say. The new man created in Christ Jesus is ETERNAL by being given the life of Jesus Christ which he has been renewed after. Man was taken from the earth and to the earth, he shall return and there perish, if not born again by the Spirit of God.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 07:00:27
When it is said that a man was created after the image of God, it simply means that in creating man God gave him a spirit.  It is in man's spirit formed in him by God Himself that man is in the image, the likeness, of God.
Wrong~I was once taught that many, many years ago, until I read the scriptures with some understanding and realized that that was not so and could not be supported with scriptures.

For us to understand what constitutes the image of God we must consider the scriptures mainly what is the features of the NEW MAN in Jesus Christ and what set Christ apart from all other men with a spirit.
Quote from: Luke
Luke 2:52"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."
Jesus Christ had the perfect image of God in the likeness of sinful flesh~he had TRUE WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, etc. as no man ever possess, EXCEPT Adam before his disobedience. Which most likely lasted less than a day shortly after Eve was created.
Quote
4WD, have you never read and consider:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:30~"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"
Quote
Colossians 2:3~"In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
That's the image of God that Adam had and LOST. Our new man has been recreated unto the image of Jesus Christ~he was made so by God for us. The second Adam secured what the first Adam lost and lost he did, even to the degree that except the Lord had left a small remnant none would have ever come to God.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 07:00:27
That is what separates man from the whole rest of the animal kingdom.
Not so~What separated man from the beast of the field was his wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and true holiness.

4WD, what separates Christians from the world is the same, for we all have a spirit, most are dead spiritually speaking, some have been born again and they possess true wisdom and fear of God that is mentioned so many times over in Proverbs that we should seek after.
Quote
It is clear that you do not know what the spirit of a man is. And I surmise that is, at least in part, why you do not really understand the what it means for man being dead in trespasses and sins and do not really understand what it means to be born again.
I just spend a few days discussing this very subject not that too long ago. It is very closely connected to the heart of man~It is very closely connected the conscience of man~It is the breath of life that is within man~other than we know very little since we have never been part of the unseen world of the spirit of just men who have been made perfect. When my grandson died two years ago with cancer in my arms, I watched his face and chest to see when the breath of God left him, then I knew he was dead. The only people who keep living after the death of the body are those who have been born again having a new man that is eternal. 
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:1-8~"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 04:40:55 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #34 on: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 07:56:00 »
All agree with this point. But, I said this to put emphasis on that which followed, which you rejected which is....

Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Does this clause teach in connection with the previous clause and so death passed upon all men that all men die because they sinned themselves or because they sinned in Adam by representation?

Both points of doctrine are true, because both are in the Bible; but what is taught here?

Heresy can start by using a verse to teach a true doctrine that the verse does not teach. All men have sinned and earned the wages of death themselves (6:23; James 1:15; Ezekiel 18:4).

All men will die by virtue of their relationship to Adam and his sin (5:14-19; Ist Corinthians 15:22).

It is a fact all men have sinned themselves, and it is a fact that the wages of every sin of every man is death, but these are not the points or purpose of this phrase here.

I think I understand what the problem is here; it seems that you are being confused by the KJV and its usage of old English. You are interpreting the phrase "for that all have sinned" as "because of that all have sinned", i.e., because of sin entering the world by one man and death by sin. Interpreted in that manner, I can understand how you might come to the conclusion you do; however, you are simply wrong and other English versions such as ESV, NASB, NKJV, etc. get it right.

ESV Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

NASB Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

NKJV Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--


In these, the meaning is clear and it is not has you contend.  That death spread to all men is simply because all men sinned.  There is nothing there to suggest as you would have it that death spread to all men by the sin of the one man Adam. The only thing here due to Adam is sin and spiritual death entering the world.

I don't usually make use of the New International Reader's Version, but in this case it presents this verse for what it really means. 

NIrV Rom 5:12  Sin entered the world because one man sinned. And death came because of sin. Everyone sinned, so death came to all people.

Quote from: RB
As so often, the contextual lesson should guide our choice for the sense of words or clauses. Before leaving the verse to look at its context, the internal argument by the as…so construction is definitive and final~death passed on all men by the sin of one man.

The adverb construction of “as … so” indicates “in this manner” sin and death came upon all men, by the one man Adam and his one sin in Eden. All men have sinned by imputation of Adam’s sin.
I have just shown you why your analysis of that verse is wrong.

Quote from: RB
“For that all have sinned” is not your sins, but rather the sin of Adam that passed death on you. How do we know this? By reading past the parentheses, where we can find 5:18-19 drawing this very conclusion from 5:12. It was one man’s disobedience~Adam’s, that made many sinners.

Each member of the human race is legally guilty and punishable for eating the forbidden fruit. We truly sinned in Adam, so we bear the sentence of that crime (and “so” death passed on us).
Once again you go to Romans 5:18-19 and come away with the completely wrong conclusion.  You always appeal to the first half of those two verses but fail completely to understand what Paul is actually saying there.  The point of his argument is NOT in the first half but in the second half.  Paul's point is NOT so much what happened as a result of Adam's disobedience, but rather what happened as a result of Jesus' obedience. That is the whole point of the "as - so" construction.  Were it not for the obedience of the one man, Jesus, the all humanity would be left with the results of the disobedience of the one man, Adam. 

But Jesus did obey.  He came to earth as a human being, lived and died on the cross. The result of that was "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (KJV v.18) What does this mean?  Is this a statement of the universality of salvation?  No, it doesn't mean that.  You and nearly everyone else interprets the effect of Adam's disobedience to mean that man comes into this world with the sin of Adam charged to them, i.e., original sin. But what Paul is saying here is that instead man comes into this world with the righteousness of Jesus charged to them. 

In other words, all men are not born in sin because of Adam; rather all men are born in righteousness because of Jesus.  What happens after that is completely up to them.  And what does Paul say about that?  Verse 12 says "death passed to all men because all men sinned --" He follows that with the caveat about sinning not being imputed when there is no law.  We could discuss that further if you like.  I won't bother with that now.

I could continue examining the rest of your post here, but given the fact that nearly all of your comments that followed were predicated on a faulty analysis of Romans 5:12 and the verses that follow there, it should be obvious to all that your analysis in what follows here is terribly tainted, to say the least.

We did not all sin "in Adam by representation".  God did not, does not and would not impute Adam's sin to anyone else. I would go so far as to say that in His righteousness, in His graciousness, in His holiness, He could not impute Adam's sin to anyone else.

I will add one other thing here that is very important.  We are born righteous, that is, our spirits as formed in us by God (Zech 12:1) are not dead in sin but rather are alive in righteousness.  Once we sin, we become spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1). We can become alive again only by regeneration.  And that is why it is called REgeneration and why it is referred to as being REborn.  In REbirth, in REgeneration, we are once again made alive in the spirit just as we were when we were born.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 08:03:39 by 4WD »