Author Topic: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3  (Read 2790 times)

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Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #70 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 14:46:16 »
Quote
You Calvinist types never read and understand verse 28 which identifies whom they were that God foreknew.  Specifically, verse 28 says that they are those who love God.  God foreknew those who would love him.

It's the same thing -- of course. Remember "no eye has seen nor ear heard what God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Corinthians 2:9) Those who love him go to heaven.

So this is the sheer desperation of people trying to resist this concept? Trying to make a distinction between those who love God and those who go to heaven (i.e. as opposed to going to Hell)?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #71 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 15:44:11 »
It's the same thing -- of course.
What is the same thing?

Quote
So this is the sheer desperation of people trying to resist this concept? Trying to make a distinction between those who love God and those who go to heaven (i.e. as opposed to going to Hell)?
What concept? I have no idea at all what you are even talking about or trying to say.

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #72 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 15:56:16 »
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What is the same thing?

People who love God = People who go to heaven vs hell. "Those He foreknew He also predestined" -- for both.

Quote
What concept?

Predestination

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #72 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 15:56:16 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #73 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 16:19:08 »
I think you are missing the point altogether.  The Calvinist says that one is saved because he is elect.  That is wrong;  one is elect because he is saved.  Predestination is not a problem per se.  The problem is that Calvinism says that foreknowledge is predestination.  It is not. 

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #73 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 16:19:08 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #74 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 16:23:08 »
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foreknowledge is predestination.

It's not if it comes from a prophet.

It is if it comes to God Who created every last piece of every last thing that possibly exists. It's not possible for the creator of every last thing, also knowing the future, also not to knowingly be the cause of everything that His creations do. "Free will" is a phrase added to Scripture that's bunch of handwaving to make that simple concept go away.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #74 on: Thu Sep 23, 2021 - 16:23:08 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #75 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 02:56:48 »
It is if it comes to God Who created every last piece of every last thing that possibly exists. It's not possible for the creator of every last thing, also knowing the future, also not to knowingly be the cause of everything that His creations do. "Free will" is a phrase added to Scripture that's bunch of handwaving to make that simple concept go away.
So then, for example, you think God caused Cain to kill Abel and then punished Cain for doing it.  Seriously? That is what you believe?  That is your view of God?  Well, I think your view of God is really, really appalling.

And besides that, your view of creation is wrong.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #75 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 02:56:48 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #76 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:01:51 »
"Free will" is a phrase added to Scripture that's bunch of handwaving to make that simple concept go away.
You can do for yourself a search on "Choose."  The scriptures are rife with that word.  "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." Josh 24.15 is only one example. 

If there is no free will to choose, all those statements become meaningless. Another example:

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 07:06:26 by DaveW »

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #77 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:10:43 »
Quote
You can do for yourself a search on "Choose."  The scriptures are rife with that word.  "Choose you this day whom you will serve..." Josh 24.15 is only one example.

DaveW,

I asked this in an earlier comment: do you truly believe that anyone under the sun doesn't think there's such a thing as a "choice"? Do you really think that any believer (the ones people label "Calvinists") just have no idea that there are Scriptures talking about making choices? Like someone's going to have a lightbulb moment when called attention to the fact that people make choices?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #78 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:18:43 »
DaveW,

I asked this in an earlier comment: do you truly believe that anyone under the sun doesn't think there's such a thing as a "choice"?
Yes.

Quote
Do you really think that any believer (the ones people label "Calvinists") just have no idea that there are Scriptures talking about making choices?
I believe they are deceived on this topic.

The very first point of Calvinism's TULIP, T for Total depravity, denies that anyone can make a moral choice. The L, for limited atonement, means that Our Lord only died for a select few, called the "elect."  They have no choice but to follow the gospel (the I for Irresistible grace) so even the elect have no choice. 

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #78 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:18:43 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #79 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:35:29 »
Quote

The very first point of Calvinism's TULIP, T for Total depravity, denies that anyone can make a moral choice. The L, for limited atonement, means that Our Lord only died for a select few, called the "elect."  They have no choice but to follow the gospel (the I for Irresistible grace) so even the elect have no choice.

Admittedly I'm not well-versed on actual Calvinist writing.

One thing I do remember is a Calvinist preacher responding to some people's understanding that causes them to ask why a Calvinist would ever believe in evangelizing if they don't think that anyone makes choices. The short of it is, his answer was that they absolutely believe in Evangelizing.

Beyond discussing "Calvinism," God's predestination is from an eternal perspective. Believers spread the Gospel, behave in grace and in every way Scripture preaches toward the world, the ones who respond are the ones whom God enabled, foreknew and predestined -- something that God knows but we don't, from our perspective we see choices from others and make choices ourselves.

Choices, however, very obviously have causation, not coming from this free will black box random choice machine. People choose things based on who they are, not out of chaos. This is only common sense from day to day and large-scale prediction of human behavior.

I'm not expecting to change someone's mind on the obviousness of choices being causal or so many Scriptures that so clearly spell out that choices too are predestined -- just answering this issue that some think that some people's minds are going to be utterly enlightened when they think "people make choices" like it's some kind of revelation.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:49:41 by Cally »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #80 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:52:35 »
Cally, as you say, you may not be well verse on actual Calvinist writing; and apparently you are not well versed on the concept of free will, either from the view of the Calvinist or the non-Calvinist.  I suggest you bone up on the concept before you make such declarations about it as you have.  No one here or anywhere else that I am aware of has every said anything about a "free will black box random choice machine", whatever in the world you think that might be.

You spoke of "so many Scriptures that so clearly spell out that choices too are predestined". Please give us three or four of those many Scriptures.  I don't think I know of even one Scripture that speaks of predestined choices.

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #81 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 08:56:13 »
4WD:

Just read Romans 9 (just too much text to post). And honestly I'm not even interested on how "free will" tries to talk around it. The word "predestined" itself is easily found in Scripture. Choices originate from the person created, and the created person comes from God -- very simple concept all over Scripture, and Romans 9 describes this the most directly.

Where are you going to find these comments like "God gave you free will because He wanted you to choose Him freely." Romans chapter 17? It's not in the Bible.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #82 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:13:12 »
Only thing I'll add is this:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

It's exactly as Paul predicted: many people will make this protest, and that's where "but free will" comes from.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #83 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:20:34 »
Admittedly I'm not well-versed on actual Calvinist writing.


Brother. this may help some:

                                                                                        Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth

                                                                                                                  Introduction

Truth depends entirely and only on the written revelation of the Bible (Ps 119:98-100,128; Isaiah 8:20; Galatians 1:6-9; II Tim 3:16-17). What is highly esteemed among men is an abomination with God, so reject men (Luke 6:26; 16:15; I Cor 1:19-20; 3:19-20).

It is often difficult to go against the wisdom of the ancients and their presumed brilliance (Job 32:1-14; I Tim 6:3-5,20-21).

Calvinism and Arminianism represent two great camps of “Christendom” that we are outside of in our desire to stick to scripture alone. Historically and doctrinally, we are outside that great religious movement known as the Protestant Reformation, for it is still Roman. Currently, we are outside the great body of modern “Christianity,” for it is fulfilling the prophecy of Paul (II Timothy 3:1 – 4:5).

Calvinism broadly used is a comprehensive theological system, but we shall limit ourselves to consider salvation unto eternal life.

Since John Calvin, Martin Luther, and other reformers did not return all the way to apostolic Christianity, we shall find Romanism. They did not expunge the sacramentalism, the ritualism, the form, the ministerial elite, the worldly education, the state church, etc. Calvin and most Calvinists are in error on the subjects (infants), mode (sprinkling), and purpose (covenant guarantee) of baptism. They are in error on the purpose (convey literal or spiritual Jesus) and interpretation (not a metaphor) of the Lord’s Supper. They are in error on the relationship of the first two Persons in the Trinity, as they teach Jesus Christ is a begotten God. They are in error on the identity of the church and the form of local church government, tracing themselves back to Rome. They are in error on the relationship of the church to civil authority and government, as they love to create state churches.

It is often called the Reformed faith, but Jesus Christ and His apostles reformed His church (Luke 16:16; John 4:21-24; Heb 9:10). Rome cannot be reformed, for it is the great whore, the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit (Rev 17:1-6; 18:2).

Yet, we are thankful for ancient and modern Calvinists that assisted in our conversion from Arminianism to the truth of the gospel.

Since we deny freewill and teach God is sovereign in salvation by election and predestination, we are often accused of being Calvinists. For those not very knowledgeable or intending only the scheme of salvation, we may at certain times allow that we are Calvinists.

However, we are hyper-Calvinists regarding salvation, for we teach regeneration before faith, a different purpose for faith and the gospel, and the definite possibility of
God’s elect backsliding into sin and having their faith overthrown (but not losing eternal life).

                                                                                                                        Arminianism

Arminianism essentially is a complete system of conditional salvation based upon man using inherent ability to perform conditions for it. It is not improperly called theistic humanism – it glorifies man as the determiner of his destiny and yet tries to glorify God as well. God is limited by man’s concept of fairness: man is a very capable creature still, and he must be in total control of his destiny. It begins with human rationalization about God that is comforting to the flesh rather than with God’s own revelation of Himself.

In general, this is a very palatable theology, in that it makes man precious, God uncontrollably in love, and salvation for the taking.

Arminianism will degenerate to modernism or other heresies, for God is lenient, and the need to save the lost justifies any means. Arminianism began with Satan’s lie in the Garden of Eden to Adam and Eve, which contradicted God’s revelation and damned the race. In defiance and denial of God’s revelation, Satan convinced Eve that she would not surely die if she ate of the fruit (Genesis 3:1-4). Satan convinced her that she could sacramentally become just like God by her own personal act in taking the fruit (Genesis 3:5-6).

Consider that Armininians today still try to peddle the lie that man is not dead by his sin in Eden, just like their father the devil. Adam and Eve, just like Arminians today, sewed fig leaves together in their own vain attempt to cover their terrible sin (Gen 3:7). It showed itself in the New Testament with proud Jews and skeptical Greeks (Luk 4:25-29; John 6:64-66; 8:33-34; Rom 3:5,8; 9:14,19).

Pelagius, a Welsh monk, began the systematic spread of Pelagianism, an early version of Arminianism, around the early 400’s. He denied original sin, a depraved nature, representation by either Adam or Christ, and the need for special grace to be saved. He held the innocence of human children, man’s freedom of will, and the possibility of achieving perfection in this life.

The Roman Catholics declared very Arminian principles at the Council of Trent in 1546 i.e. maintaining freewill and sacramentalism. Read the anathemas pronounced in the Sixth Session of Trent against God’s grace in salvation and the freewill of man.

Augustus Toplady, the author of the hymn “Rock of Ages,” exposed the close connection of Arminianism to Rome.

James Arminius (1560-1609) began the systematic spread of Arminianism in the early 1600s, as he rebelled against state Calvinism. As a university professor in Leiden, Arminius questioned Calvin’s theology in several points, publishing and preaching against it. In 1610, his followers issued a remonstrance to the government of Holland against the Calvinistic doctrine of the state church. Man is not so corrupted by sin that he is unable to cooperate with God in performing conditions for his salvation to eternal life. Man’s election to salvation is conditional upon God forseeing his faith and perseverance and confirming him thereby to eternal life. Jesus Christ’s death potentially provided for the salvation of all men upon conditions, but it did not surely secure salvation for any. Man is able to resist the work of the Holy Spirit in applying the effects of Christ’s death to men, as salvation is only an offer. The conditions for final salvation include continuing in faith and good works until death, for sin will cause you to lose salvation.

Since Arminius, John Wesley, Charles Finney, D.L. Moody, Billy Graham, Jack Hyles, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, and many more past and present like them have taught decisional regeneration as the deciding issue that renders the love of God and death of Christ effective.

                                                                                                                            Calvinism

Calvinism essentially is a complete system of salvation based unconditionally upon God, Who will cause man to fulfill his conditions. It is not improperly called theistic fatalism – it subordinates means to predestination and logically undermines human responsibility.

It brings from Romanism several of the features of sacramental salvation and eventually reduces exertion through secondary means.

Calvinism also began in Eden, when Adam and Eve each blamed God indirectly for their sin in eating the fruit (Genesis 3:8-13).

Augustine of the Catholic Church was the counterpart of Pelagius and opposed him with his predestinarian system called Augustianism.

John Calvin (1509-1564) further systematized the theology that would come to bear his name, though T.U.L.I.P originated in Holland.

The Synod of Dordt (1618-1619) was held by the government of Holland to legally settle the issue of Calvinism versus Arminianism. It totally rejected the five main points of the Arminians from their remonstrance of 1610 and answered with five points of its own.

The acrostic TULIP – Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. Man is totally depraved, unable to cooperate with God, a captive of the devil, and his will is entirely under the bondage of sin. God unconditionally elected some of mankind to salvation in spite of their rebellion according to His own purpose and grace. Jesus Christ’s death by intent and application is limited to the elect only, and every single one of them will be certainly saved. The work of the Holy Spirit in applying Jesus Christ’s death to the elect in regeneration and conversion is irresistible by the elect. God effectually and sovereignly causes the elect to persevere in faith and good works so that they cannot be lost but will be saved.

After Calvin came John Owen, John Gill, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Hodge, Arthur Pink, and many more past and present like them. Most people today associate Calvinism with Presbyterianism, which gives it lip service with their Westminster Confession of Faith.

                                                                                                                                 The Truth
The truth distinguishes between unconditional and conditional aspects of God’s salvation, dividing between God’s work and our duty.

Arminianism in its five points is totally rejected as unscriptural and blasphemous against the intentions and accomplishments of Christ.

Man is neither free nor able to cooperate with God for salvation (John 3:3; 8:43,47; 10:26; Rom 8:7-8 I Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-3).

God’s foreknowledge in election did not find any conditions met; it was of persons, not actions (Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Rom 8:29).

Jesus Christ’s death accomplished salvation for His elect; it did not merely make it possible (Matt 1:21 Rom 5:10; Hebrews 9:15).


The Holy Spirit’s work in applying salvation through regeneration is effectual and sure (John 3:8; Eph 1:19; Titus 3:5; I Pet 1:2).

The elect cannot be lost nor separated from the purpose of God in salvation (John 6:38-39; Rom 8:28-39; II Timothy 2:16-19).

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by brother Paul. Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation. God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistable Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few.

The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer.

The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect.
Saints must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding. Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary. If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible? God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

This is a brief overall comparison between them. The outline is not mine but a friend (Jonathan Crosby letgodbetrue.com)  I have known for almost my entire walk with God and on this doctrine we agree almost 100% . Since I have no time today I copy and posted this with his permission.  I have a similar outline but not where I can copy and paste.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #84 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:20:56 »
Only thing I'll add is this:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

It's exactly as Paul predicted: many people will make this protest, and that's where "but free will" comes from.
Nothing about Romans 9:19 negates free will.

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #85 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:28:26 »
Quote
Nothing about Romans 9:19 negates free will.

Right, and I mean this is just where I personally accept the impasse. “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” is the exact gripe of people who respond with "but free will."

Just try to notice that "Calvinists" -- whether the label is self-applied or one you want to apply -- are:

1. Fully aware that people make choices -- this is news to no one in sight.
2. Believe in evangelizing
3. Believe people have consequences based on their choices (only that their choices were ultimately predetermined).

Cool? I mean, is this adequate common ground, or not?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #86 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:28:47 »
Where are you going to find these comments like "God gave you free will because He wanted you to choose Him freely." Romans chapter 17? It's not in the Bible.
It was there from the very outset; both in the Garden and out of the Garden.

Gen 3:6  So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Gen 4:6  The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
Gen 4:7  If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #87 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:33:42 »
Right, and I mean this is just where I personally accept the impasse. “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” is the exact gripe of people who respond with "but free will."

Just try to notice that "Calvinists" -- whether the label is self-applied or one you want to apply -- are:

1. Fully aware that people make choices -- this is news to no one in sight.
2. Believe in evangelizing
3. Believe people have consequences based on their choices (only that their choices were ultimately predetermined).

Cool? I mean, is this adequate common ground, or not?

But none of that has anything to do with the Calvinist rejection of free will.  Clearly you do not understand the concept.

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #88 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 09:44:08 »
4WD:

See, all these references to people making choices as if there's anyone in sight who is actually saying that people don't make choices. I've never, ever seen someone utterly bewildered by the fact or assertion that people make choices. Who are you expecting to find utterly shocked and dumbstruck at the sight of people making choices?

And if that's your exegesis, why tack on "free will"? Everyone gets it: people make choices.

The only other point is that choices have causation. People have patterns of behavior, choices come out of who they are, and who they are comes from their creator.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #89 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:17:15 »
RB,

I'm working on your longer post -- thanks!

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #90 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:30:59 »
4WD:

See, all these references to people making choices as if there's anyone in sight who is actually saying that people don't make choices. I've never, ever seen someone utterly bewildered by the fact or assertion that people make choices. Who are you expecting to find utterly shocked and dumbstruck at the sight of people making choices?

And if that's your exegesis, why tack on "free will"? Everyone gets it: people make choices.

The only other point is that choices have causation. People have patterns of behavior, choices come out of who they are, and who they are comes from their creator.
Cally, Calvinism doesn't deny people can make choices except where such choices involve hearing, learning and following God without first being regenerated.  Calvinism clearly treats God as incapable of communicating His will to the unregenerated. But that is an affront to God.  The biblical concept of free will rejects such lunacy.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #91 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:45:10 »
Quote
Calvinism doesn't deny people can make choices except where such choices involve hearing, learning and following God without first being regenerated.  Calvinism clearly treats God as incapable of communicating His will to the unregenerated. But that is an affront to God.

You're not addressing my question in terms of your exegesis. So what happens when a hardline Calvinist sees those passages about Adam and Eve disobeying God? What do those Scriptures clearly show that they are disputing?

My answer is that it's just a common sense understanding of human behavior: Adam is Adam, so Adam does what Adam does, and chooses the way Adam chooses, after God created Adam down to the tiniest piece.

That's how you "get to know someone," make marketing strategies, study psychology, do business advertising, etc. It's totally day-to-day common sense. Showing examples of people making choices has nothing to do with disproving predestination for a choice of salvation, because the choices are coming from people who inevitably came from God. If you have to add extra commentary to Scripture in addition to examples of people making choices as if someone is arguing with that fact then that's what should be rejected as an interpreted and not something that the Bible teaches.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:50:13 by Cally »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #92 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:55:42 »
The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer.
That is because you have conjured up your own definition of conversion which is different from Calvin or Edwards or any mainstream Calvinist; and different, by the way, from the definition by the typical Arminianist.  You continue to use the word conversion for the biblical concept of sanctification.  Clearly regeneration and sanctification are two separate and distinct concepts.  The interesting thing here is that neither of the words regeneration or conversion find regular or frequent use in the Scriptures. Regeneration, salvation, conversion all refer to the same instantaneous one-time act of God in the transition from being a sinner to being a saint.

And you seem to not really understand what the gospel is.  It is the power of God for salvation (Rom 1:16), not for sanctification [or what you call conversion].

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #93 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 10:59:11 »
You're not addressing my question in terms of your exegesis.
I am, but you clearly do not understand what I am saying, therefore I will quit trying.

Offline Cally

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #94 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:05:39 »
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I am, but you clearly do not understand what I am saying, therefore I will quit trying.

I heard what you said. You think those examples of Adam and Eve choosing to disobey should stop a Calvinist dead in his tracks -- like Adam and Eve couldn't possibly do that unless you insert a "free will" theology into Scripture. I don't see that, and it's certainly not conflicting with anything that I've said.

Besides, why are we even arguing about Calvinism anyway? I didn't bring Calvinism into the discussion. I said what I said, nothing you said is unaddressed except possibly for disputes about what Calvinists think.

The possible difference is, I don't make a distinction between TYPES of choices. All choices are choices, all are predestined because choices come from who a person IS, and who a person is inevitably comes from the One Who created them.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:09:01 by Cally »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #95 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:29:27 »
All choices are choices, all are predestined because choices come from who a person IS, and who a person is inevitably comes from the One Who created them.
Whatever.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #96 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 11:32:13 »
Besides, why are we even arguing about Calvinism anyway?
Uhhh, the title of the topic is Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #97 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 12:02:22 »
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Uhhh, the title of the topic is Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3

I didn't claim to be a Calvinist. You started with "you Calvinist types" after I responded to one line of the OP. I responded in ways that don't fit your description of Calvinist beliefs because I don't distinguish between types of choices insofar as ALL of them ARE choices and all of them are also predestined due to choices only coming from the innards of the person which came from God.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #98 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:00:41 »
You continue to use the word conversion for the biblical concept of sanctification.  Clearly regeneration and sanctification are two separate and distinct concepts. 
4WD, I know the differences between them they are two separate doctrines altogether, it is you who does not see the difference between regeneration and conversion, even though I do agree when one is regenerated a conversion takes place~yet it does not stop there, every child of God will go through MANY conversion on many issues, both concerning doctrines and practical godliness, or the mannerism of what constitutes true sanctification from man-made doctrine and commandments~ if examples would help I could provide them.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 10:55:42
And you seem to not really understand what the gospel is.  It is the power of God for salvation (Rom 1:16), not for sanctification [or what you call conversion].
I would love for anyone to start a thread on: What constitutes the true gospel? What is the purpose of preaching the gospel? Who has the power to understand it? Why do not all understand it?  etc., etc. I'm convinced by the grace of God alone, that he has given me the power, gift to see, and understand and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ per Galatians 2:16 which IS the gospel, in a nutshell, NOT John 3:16!  John 3:16 is a revelation of a declaration from heaven concerning God's love and the evidence of those whom God loves~those that believe.

4WD, you have quoted Romans 1:16 several times and each time I remind you that it is you that is not understanding what you are quoting for it goes against your system of how sinners are born again and how they come to an understanding of the truth. You have it terribly backwards dear sir.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The gospel is the power of God only to BELIEVERS, to all the rest it is foolishness! 1st Corinthians 1:18-21  should be read as a cross-reference to Romans 1:16,17 and if one does so, they should see clearly the truth on this one important truth. Romans 1:17 clearly said that the righteousness of God which is declared in the gospel  can ONLY be revealed from FAITH TO FAITH ....or, from a person who believes to another person who believes, which maintains the truth that the gospel is foolishness to a lost sinner! Not too deep to understand, just one must put away his bias against the truth.

If you have a better understanding on Romans 1:16 AND 17, let me hear it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 14:03:29 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #99 on: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 16:58:55 »
The gospel is the power of God only to BELIEVERS
Of course.  What is a believer? That is one who has faith.  And how does one become a believer? The very straightforward answer is found in Romans 10:

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);   because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ (vv.7-17) .

That by the way also sets conditions for salvation; conditions which you say do not exist.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 24, 2021 - 17:04:22 by 4WD »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #100 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 05:46:55 »
Of course.  What is a believer? [/size
A believer is one that has been born again. Brother, listen carefully to the apostle John's words:
Quote from: The beloved apostle John
1st John 5:1~"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."
I helped you to listen by using the bold red letters. So, this verse answers your question as clear as the noonday sun shining in its brightness. A believer is one that HAS BEEN born of God evidence by his faith in Jesus Christ and love of those that have the same faith.So, if one does not have faith in Jesus Christ and love for the brethren, then that person is NOT born again, would you not agree? Would you also agree that all others consider the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ foolishness? If so, then are not as of yet born of God? Very simple, is he, or not?
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 16:58:55
And how does one become a believer?
By first being born of God. Without the first being born of God one cannot have faith, impossible!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Along with:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
And many others could be added.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 16:58:55
That is one who has faith.  The very straightforward answer is found in Romans 10:
Romans 10:1-13 does not tell us how one becomes a believer, but how one who has zeal and fear and faith in God can be saved from going about trying to establish his OWN righteousness (seeking to be accepted by his own works, etc.) this he can do by SUBMITTING HIMSELF unto the righteousness of God which he provided for us IN JESUS CHRIST who is the end of the law for righteousness, the one and only one God's word approves of! The salvation in Romans 10:1-13 is salvation from one's ignorance to a true understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ~those in Romans 10 believed in God, which Paul testify of, yet they were still clinging to their own righteousness in hope of eternal life.
Quote from: Paul's witness of some of God's children still trusting in their own righteousness which is of the law of works
Romans 10:2-4~"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
One's faith in CHRIST ALONE is proof that a child of God has true knowledge in the gospel of Jesus Christ~he does not trust in any work of his own as though that work is the cause of him being born of God, including his own faith which is the evidence of being born of God, NOT the means thereof. If even a person thinks his faith is the means, then he is still in ignorance of the truth and needs to be saved from that error of his understanding~he very well could love, fear, and have great zeal for God, and still be in ignorance of this truth of Jesus's gospel. This is the true saying of God concerning Romans 10! Selah
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 05:49:23 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #101 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 06:41:52 »
A believer is one that has been born again. Brother, listen carefully to the apostle John's words.....
RB, John's statement there in 1 John 5:1 is the promise to the believer.  Being born of God, i.e., born again, is the what happens to the believer.  John is not saying that one who is born of God becomes a believer; just the opposite; being a believer is the requirement, the condition, for being born again.  John is telling his readers that they can know that they have been born again if they are believers.  It is the condition whereby they can identify who are born again. He says this a bit more specifically in verse 10 where he says that "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself"

John sums up this whole letter in verse 13 where he says. "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

Believing is number one on the check list of who has been born again.  Faith, that is believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, is the first and last point of John's letter.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #102 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 06:49:33 »
Romans 10:1-13 does not tell us how one becomes a believer....
Romans 10:17 does: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #103 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 07:10:46 »
The salvation in Romans 10:1-13 is salvation from one's ignorance to a true understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ~
Again with your contrived nonsense of being saved from ignorance.  Being saved from ignorance accomplishes nothing spiritual.  Satan, himself, is fully saved from ignorance.  He knows who Jesus is. There is no doubt that he knows what his future will be.  His freedom from ignorance will not save him. Salvation in Romans, in fact in the whole of the NT, is salvation from sin.  Nothing else really matters.  You can be saved from ignorance, you can be saved from drowning, you can be saved from starvation, you can be saved from poverty, you name it; but the salvation that comes by faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is salvation from sin and death; the salvation that comes by faith in Jesus Christ is eternal life.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #104 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 07:20:35 »
RB said

Quote
A believer is one that has been born again. Brother, listen carefully to the apostle John's words:

Quote from: The beloved apostle John
1st John 5:1~"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

I helped you to listen by using the bold red letters. So, this verse answers your question as clear as the noonday sun shining in its brightness. A believer is one that HAS BEEN born of God evidence by his faith in Jesus Christ and love of those that have the same faith.So, if one does not have faith in Jesus Christ and love for the brethren, then that person is NOT born again, would you not agree? Would you also agree that all others consider the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ foolishness? If so, then are not as of yet born of God? Very simple, is he, or not?

By first being born of God. Without the first being born of God one cannot have faith, impossible!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Along with:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
And many others could be added.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 16:58:55
That is one who has faith.  The very straightforward answer is found in Romans 10:
Romans 10:1-13 does not tell us how one becomes a believer, but how one who has zeal and fear and faith in God can be saved from going about trying to establish his OWN righteousness (seeking to be accepted by his own works, etc.) this he can do by SUBMITTING HIMSELF unto the righteousness of God which he provided for us IN JESUS CHRIST who is the end of the law for righteousness, the one and only one God's word approves of! The salvation in Romans 10:1-13 is salvation from one's ignorance to a true understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ~those in Romans 10 believed in God, which Paul testify of, yet they were still clinging to their own righteousness in hope of eternal life.
»
[/size]

So basically it boils down to what children of my generation were always told when we would ask why.

Because I (GOD) said so?

NO wiggle room to come to an understanding of why when we would ask that question.

Perhaps we should change that poster from decades ago from Uncle Sam wants you... with that finger pointing to all young people and change it to God wants you and you have no option..... BECAUSE that is exactly what YOU are saying.....

I cringe when I read words from you like "Would you also agree that all others consider the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ foolishness?"

If it were not for the cross even you would be lost. THAT IS FACT.

So why not preach it.

If it were not for the cross the words "covered under the blood of Jesus would have no reason or meaning.

I shall stop before I add another chapter to this ongoing saga.