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Offline Reformer

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Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« on: Thu Jul 22, 2021 - 23:01:02 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
___________________________
 
The Calvinist Mindset vs. Heaven’s
Oracles #3

    To extricate the idea that man is incapable of choosing God, Romans, chapter 1, needs to be revisited and appraised. Paul writes about the wickedness of man, apparently the Gentile pagans, and says,  “What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them from what has been made [created things], so that men are without excuse.”
 
    He goes on to say, “Although they knew God [His eternal power and divine nature], they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to him” [Rom. 1:18-32]. Paul continues by saying, “They did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God” [v. 28]. Here is what we have:
 
1) These Gentile pagans knew God through the revelation of creation.
2) They were free to either choose God or reject Him through the only revelation to which they had access.
3) They were free to glorify God and offer their thanksgiving.
4) They even retained the knowledge of God, but cast it aside.
5) Had they glorified God and given Him thanks, they would have become part of the elect, but since they refused Him, they remained part of the non-elect.

 
Let’s Clarify The Matter Even More
 
    1. Any competent person upon the face of God’s footstool may seek Him, find Him, and choose Him. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life” [Rom. 2:7]. As verse 9 reveals, Paul is talking about “every human being.”
 
    2. If God enables a man to seek Him, He also gives him the ability to choose Him! Paul, in referring to the entire human family, writes, “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us” [Acts 17:27].
 
    3. But how may a man—any man—seek God and find Him if he is void of free will and the ability to choose? So, who is accessible and who does the seeking? God, of course, makes Himself available to every man, everywhere, after which some men choose to accept Him while others choose to reject Him. Those who accept Him are His elect.
 
    4. The scriptures above demonstrate rather strongly that God has not constrained a segment of the population to be saved and arbitrarily by-passed all others. They establish the truth that anyone and everyone may choose to accept God or reject Him. Paul’s words—as well as Jesus’—forever dispels the main thrusts of Calvinism. There is absolutely no way to turn these facts around in an effort to give them a different meaning. Let’s put it like this:
 
The receptive heart will seek God and find Him. The non-receptive heart will not seek Him. He will remain dead in his sins.

    The Calvinist asks, “But how does a man achieve a receptive heart? Who gave it to him? How did he come by it?” And I answer: Each person has been granted the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. In other words, God enables us to be receptive or non-receptive. The decision is ours.
 
    For if God forces a receptive heart upon those whom he foreknew, He has also forced a non-receptive heart upon those he did not foreknow. This translates into the truth that our God has compelled a segment of the population to be saved and the remainder to be lost. Obviously, this bit of untruth clashes with heaven’s oracles.
 
    Some of the Calvinists I’ve been in touch with, assert, “Man may choose, but he always chooses to disobey God, because he is so totally depraved.” This runs 100% counter to what Jesus declares. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” [John 7:17]. The two statements cannot, under any circumstances, be reconciled. Either Jesus is wrong or the Calvinist is wrong. I’ll go with Jesus!
 
[Look for #4 soon.]
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 22, 2021 - 23:10:27 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #1 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 03:57:11 »
Reformer, I'll wait until you are 100% finished and then post~I have only a word to say....."you should take scriptures that Calvinist use to prove their doctrine and give the correct meaning according to your understanding before your Oracles from heaven can truly be completed"

I'm waiting chomping at the bit, RB  ::smile::

Offline Reformer

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #2 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 13:44:52 »

RB:

Be patient, brother, be patient.

Buff

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« Reply #2 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 13:44:52 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 13:58:45 »
Will you go with God (Jesus) in Romans 3:9-18, and additionally Psalms 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalm 5:9, Psalm 140:3, Psalm 10:7, Isaiah 59:7,8, Psalm 36:1?  Until we are drawn by the Holy Spirit, no one can choose God (John 6:44).


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« Reply #3 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 13:58:45 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 15:06:55 »
Will you go with God (Jesus) in Romans 3:9-18, and additionally Psalms 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalm 5:9, Psalm 140:3, Psalm 10:7, Isaiah 59:7,8, Psalm 36:1?  Until we are drawn by the Holy Spirit, no one can choose God (John 6:44).

John 6:44~ I agree. But can you clarify when you believe the Holy Spirit first draws people?

That can be read as an open ended idea of before birth, as in God pre-chose ( hence from the moment of conception) and the Spirit led and convicted us all of our lives ( hence our conscience) .... to the age of accountability and something pricks the heart and your growth and yearning then begins.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 15:32:52 »
John 6:44~ I agree. But can you clarify when you believe the Holy Spirit first draws people?

That can be read as an open ended idea of before birth, as in God pre-chose ( hence from the moment of conception) and the Spirit led and convicted us all of our lives ( hence our conscience) .... to the age of accountability and something pricks the heart and your growth and yearning then begins.

I don't know exactly when.  I just take it at face value. 

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« Reply #5 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 15:32:52 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 03:46:37 »
John 6:44~ I agree. But can you clarify when you believe the Holy Spirit first draws people?

John 6:45  It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


The Holy Spirit first draws people when they first hear about God.  That is typically the father or mother or another family member; but it could be anyone. 

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 04:04:00 »
John 6:44~ I agree. But can you clarify when you believe the Holy Spirit first draws people?
Rella, since Reformer is making a different thread for each post, I will answer this question since will not most likely be answered by him, pretty sure, could be wrong.
Quote
That can be read as an open ended idea of before birth, as in God pre-chose ( hence from the moment of conception) and the Spirit led and convicted us all of our lives ( hence our conscience) .... to the age of accountability and something pricks the heart and your growth and yearning then begins.
A lot of errors in that statement~the main one is the age of accountability, there's no such doctrine taught in the scriptures, we were ACCOUNTABLE IN ADAM~reject this truth and one will end up in a web of false doctrines, see and confess this truth, will lead a person down the road of fully understanding many great doctrines of the Christian religion. The wisdom of God is clearly seen in making righteous Adam the head and representative of his posterity before the law of God. Adam had NO SIN NATURE and was endured with an image of God that sin had not defiled and destroyed.

For sake of time read some very good articles written on this subject: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/account.html       https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-2007/age-of-accountability/

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 04:42:13 »
RB, there is so much wrong with Tony Warren's view of that subject that it would take way too much time to refute, so I won't.  He has simply lined up all the usual misinterpretations of selected passages of scripture in support of Original Sin and/or Total Depravity.

You said,
Quote from: RB
A lot of errors in that statement~the main one is the age of accountability, there's no such doctrine taught in the scriptures, we were ACCOUNTABLE IN ADAM~
You may think there's no such doctrine as the age of accountability taught in the scriptures, but I would argue that there is, and have on several occasions. But my question to you is where, exactly, do you think the doctrine of ACCOUTABLE IN ADAM is taught in scriptures.  The very idea is ludicrous. The righteousness of God precludes His holding one person accountable for another person's sin. Even thinking that He would do such a thing borders on heresy, if not actual heresy. 

In fact God devoted the entire chapter 18 in Ezekiel's book of prophecy to dispel the idea of anyone accountable to God for the sins of another.  And nothing in all of the OT and the NT countermands any of it.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
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Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 04:46:49 »
John 6:44~ I agree. But can you clarify when you believe the Holy Spirit first draws people?
It is not easy to explain truth especially so that truth which has been rejected and badly misunderstood, but I'll try to be brief.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

"NO MAN CAN COME"~I have heard preachers, and just about most of them, quote this precious scripture and then destroy it very purpose for which Jesus said these words. They believe THROUGH PREACHING God draws sinners to give them an opportunity to either accept or reject and this drawing could happen several times in the life of the sinner~ Nothing could be farther from the truth this is not the meaning of drawing as we trust to prove.

Coming to Christ here is to believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son from heaven. The issue at stake~ clearly stated as a premise~ is believing on Him (6:29). Note the clear comparison between coming and believing on Him (John 6:35). Note again the clear comparison between believing and coming (Jn 6:36-37). Note a third clear comparison of coming and believing on Him (John 6:44-47). Note a fourth clear comparison of believing and coming to Him (6:64-65).

This coming to Jesus Christ is sincere faith meeting God’s approval with works. Insincere faith that does not qualify is identified in John (2:23-25; 8:30-59).
Real faith changes men, but real faith requires a real work of grace by God. Real faith~and in John 6 it must be emphasized repeatedly~ is not assent. Real faith owns Jesus as Saviour and Lord with passion, obedience, cost, etc.

We must let these six words lodge in our memory and be a foundation stone of truth. We have no more right to modify these words than Satan in Genesis 3:4. Since Genesis 3:6 man has been dead spiritually in need of total spiritual resurrection. There is no cure or remedy to offer a dead man~you must give the man life.

Any study of salvation must deal with this fact of man’s depravity and death.

No man can come to me = all men run to sin in hatred and rebellion against me. Paul’s first chapter to the Romans is a terrible indictment of men and truth (Rom 1:18-32)~along with the third chapter of Romans verses 9-18~ proves the utter depravity of man UNLESS a mind is fully set against hearing that truth~but, to any unbias mind the message is very clear.

Luke’s record of Paul’s preaching at Antioch illustrated it (Acts 13:38-52). Natural man greatly opposes truth (Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19). There is no ability of heart or will for natural man to submit to the Son of God. It is not a matter of intellect or intelligence as much as depravity of the will.

Men can still reason logically, but they will not do so toward spiritual truth.

Jesus denied a ruler of the Jews the ability to see Christ’s kingdom (John 3:3). Jesus on trial for His life declared that the Jews would not believe (John 5:40).
Jesus denied another Jewish audience the ability to hear Him (John 8:43,47). Again, Man’s universal depravity is described in detail by Paul (Romans 1:18-32). There is
Therefore, no effort or method will help to bring an unregenerate man to Christ. Isaiah wrote that a change of environment cannot help sinful man (Isaiah 26:10). Jesus rejected even Lazarus returning from the dead as helpful (Luke 16:31). Jesus shortly suggested ascension back to heaven would not help (6:62-65). How much less profitable the foolish, heretical, and profane ideas of today! It is a terrible shame this verse and its doctrine and repetition are ignored (6:65). It is the doctrine of total depravity, where any study of salvation must start. It results in many false salvation ideas by not rightly seeing man depraved. It results in a weak view of salvation where man can choose to save himself.

It results in confusing God’s mighty work of regeneration or quickening. It results in a presumptuous idea that man has a free will to be manipulated. It results in decisional salvation where man is pushed and pulled to choose. It results in ridiculous methods~the end justifies the means for salvation. It results in false confidence in salvation by ignoring the role of good works. It results in missing God’s promise to regenerate His elect and convert them. It results in confounding the order of regeneration and conversion of sinners. It results in confidence in oneself or in man rather than in God’s free grace.

Free will? God’s will is free, but even He cannot will sinfully (Romans 9:14). The evident proof of depravity is repeated in light of ascension (6:62-65).

If all are depraved and rebels against God, will any come to Christ and how? The differences among men are incredible, but they are not by innate ability. It is not that some men are born better than others by nature … but by grace.

"Except the Father"~later   RB

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 04:56:55 »
You may think there's no such doctrine as the age of accountability taught in the scriptures, but I would argue that there is, and have on several occasions.
What is the age? And if there is an age given, then you have a serious problem to adrress~WHY did God COMMAND to destroy even the children when Israel destroy their enemies? I'm speaking of suckingly btw and you know the scriptures, so I will not provide them. IF they were not accounted as wicked, then God was wrong in killing them! Yes, or no?

The answer to your other question is clearly taught in Romans five and also is seen in the gospel of Jesus Christ being the head of his seed and his acts of obedience were put on the account of the elect whom he represented! Been over this numerous times. If you do not understand this truth concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, then my friend you have much to learn, and your time is running out.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #11 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 05:32:06 »
What is the age? And if there is an age given, then you have a serious problem to adrress~WHY did God COMMAND to destroy even the children when Israel destroy their enemies? I'm speaking of suckingly btw and you know the scriptures, so I will not provide them. IF they were not accounted as wicked, then God was wrong in killing them! Yes, or no?
NO ! ! Their  physical death has nothing whatsoever to do with their spiritual life or death.  Once again, we do not die or are not killed because we are sinners, even though all too often the sin of someone does indeed lead to the physical death of themselves or even someone else.  Physical death is simply the result of the physical creation. That is demonstrated and proven by God's placing the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

Quote from: RB
The answer to your other question is clearly taught in Romans five and also is seen in the gospel of Jesus Christ being the head of his seed and his acts of obedience were put on the account of the elect whom he represented! Been over this numerous times. If you do not understand this truth concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, then my friend you have much to learn, and your time is running out.
If you would actually read and understand Romans five you know that Paul's whole point was the effect upon all of mankind of Jesus' obedience was to actually nullify any and all effects of Adam's disobedience upon all of mankind.  Paul's message there is not Original Sin at all; but rather his message there is Original Grace.  And that of course is fully in line with God's word in Ezekiel 18.  No one is held responsible for the sin of another, even the sin of Adam.  Not even Cain, Abel or Seth were held responsible for Adam's sin.  Specifically, God told Cain that what he did, either good or bad, was what was accounted to him (Gen 4:6-7).

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #12 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 06:01:42 »
Coming to Christ here is to believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son from heaven. The issue at stake~ clearly stated as a premise~ is believing on Him (6:29). Note the clear comparison between coming and believing on Him (John 6:35). Note again the clear comparison between believing and coming (Jn 6:36-37). Note a third clear comparison of coming and believing on Him (John 6:44-47). Note a fourth clear comparison of believing and coming to Him (6:64-65).
Coming to Christ is believing in Christ.  Believing in Christ is coming to Christ.  They are equated.  That is the message of John  6:36-37.  To never "hunger" is to not die spiritually.  To never "thirst" is to not die spiritually.  And by the way, whoever means whoever.  It has no reference to any Calvinistic "elect".

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 09:19:53 »
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
The impossibility of man ever believing on His Son is solved by God’s grace. Here the key word is except~elsewhere it is the inspired disjunctive but (Romans 5:8; 6:17; Ist Corinthians 1:27; 3:7; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 2:4; 2nd Thessalonians  2:13; Titus 3:4)

God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44; Romans 5:6-10; etc.). God makes all the difference.....every bit of it~and shall get all the praise. 1st Corinthians 1:29-31; etc.  Except, unless and until a man is born again, he cannot see Christ (John 3:3,5). This explanation and condemnation of the audience are repeated (6:44, 65). The will of the flesh or will of man has no role, only the Spirit (John 1:13; 3:8).

There is no need to find shades of difference between drawing and regeneration, they are one and the same!  Without regeneration, no drawing will work, even by the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 2:14).

Without God’s persuading operation, regeneration may give life without conversion (Galatians 1:15-16 cp Ist Timothy 1:12 cp Acts 9:6 cp Romans 11:28). There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Ephesians 1:17; 3:14-19). All glory to God the Father … giving us to Christ (6:37) … drawing or regenerating us. (6:44).

The Lord Jesus Christ secured the redemption of every single one given to him of his Father John 17.  The effect of being drawn is to come to Christ and believe on Him (6:40,47). The final result of God’s gracious work is in the last day~ the resurrection of life.

By the very fact, Jesus said EXCEPT the Father draws a man he cannot come, PROVES that not all are drawn, or granted eternal life through Jesus Christ, or, Jesus is just saying words he does not know what he means by saying them....but we KNOW he chose his words very carefully. This scripture means nothing if all are drawn by the Spirit of God....... why even mentioned this if one can be saved from their sins without this special calling? Drawing is the very same thing as being TAUGHT OF GOD.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:45~It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
follows on the heels of verse 44 and explains what being drawn means in the biblical doctrine of salvation of being saved from our sins.

If you believe on Christ with true love and service, you are bound to thank God. You are different from the vast majority of mankind in so following Christ. God made the difference, not you, so you must thank Him (2nd Thessalonians 2:9-14)!

"Draw him"~we shall consider in more detail next....RB
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 09:26:03 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 11:23:57 »
God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help
He did intervene; that intervention is called the Scriptures.  And that dealing with man's salvation is called the gospel. I wouldn't think that you believe that God lacks the ability to communicate through His special revelation such that ordinary man could read and understand with sufficient depth to grasp what He is saying and thereby be drawn.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 13:45:26 »
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John already introduced and explained this event (John 1:13; 3:3,5,8; 5:24-25).

The word draw has many meanings, and it is Bible context that must determine its meaning. The word draw is used here due to the emphasis on coming to Jesus Christ.
If no man can come (ability)~to go to Him in faith....what will move him?

Draw. I. Of traction. II. Of attraction. III. Of extraction. IV. Of tension, extension, protraction. V. Of delineation or construction. VI. Of motion, moving oneself. VII. In combination with adverbs.

Bible doctrine requires this drawing to be God’s powerful grace changing the heart and mind of man to be willing by a new nature to hate sin and love Christ.
The synonyms or defining words are drag, haul, move, pull, tow, tug, etc.

The change is birth, quickening, regeneration, creation, resurrection, renew. These inspired terms require divine choice, divine power, man’s passivity, instantaneous act, giving of life, deny any creature activity, creature death.

The terms exclusively require God’s sovereign choice and man is passive. Consider:  Our quickening took the same power as raising Jesus (Ephesians 1:19-20; 2:1-3). John gives illustrative examples of draw (2:8-9; 4:7,11,15; 18:10; 21:6,11). The day of Christ’s power made His elect willing in several ways (Psalms 110:3). God gives repentance to save from Satan and contradiction (2nd Timothy 2:25-26). God must open hearts for a person to attend to Bible preaching (Acts 16:14). Faith itself is God’s gift – that is quite a drawing event (Philippians 1:29; James 2:5; 2nd Thessalonians  3:2)!

This drawing cannot be a mere attraction, invitation, or persuasion of the sinner.  Unregenerate cannot be attracted or persuaded of Him; they will reject Him. The will of the flesh is not involved, as John made very clear. (John 1:13).

Preaching only has value to those already born again by the power of God. Romans 1:11,17; 1st Corinthians 1:18-21; etc.  Thus Ist Corinthians 2:1-5 dumbs down the message to reduce it to the power of God.

How was Saul drawn to Christ? By pricking? Blindness? Revelation? But all these things only work on a regenerate man, thus the need to rightly divide.

Some use Solomon’s Song 1:4 ever so eloquently, but there was no enmity between the two lovers like there is between Jesus Christ and rebel sinners. Some use Hosea 11:4 eloquently, but His drawing did not work, as judgment came; He did all possible for his vineyard, but He got wild grapes (Isaiah 5:1-7).

Using the O.T. for N.T. doctrine is like Presbyterians using it for sprinkling. There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Ephesians  1:17; 3:14-19) just ask Peter when you see him if this is so.  ::smile:: There is persuasive moving by Christ, but after regeneration (2nd Corinthians 5:14-15)! God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians  2:12-13), and this work must be the same as or closely connected to regeneration. This work of God the Father (and of Christ and the Spirit) is without man’s aid.

There are no ordinances or sacraments to direct God’s power to regenerate. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience ~already born again (Ist Peter 3:21).

God alone makes the change if a babe in Elisabeth’s womb or a thief on a cross.

Jesus drawing all men to Himself later in John is gathering the elect (John 12:32) from ALL NATIONS.

First, folks know that none are drawn to Christ by His crucifixion cross, for the preaching of the cross is seen as foolish by those perishing (I Cor 1:18). There are no exceptions. Second, you know Jesus crucified is fully and only offensive to natural men. There are no exceptions. Third, you know that by His death Jesus legally saved all elect for heaven. Jesus came to gather the elect (Genesis 49:10; John 10:16; 11:52; Ephesians 1:10; Hebrews 2:13). Not ONE will perish, no, not one! John 17 proves all that we have said above.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 24, 2021 - 13:48:59 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #16 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 02:47:10 »
Man is not passive in salvation. God works for salvation and man must also obey.

Quote
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

In Acts 2 lost men were told what they must do for God to save them and forgive their sins.

Quote
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38)

In Acts 22 the lost sinner Saul was told to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins.

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'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
(Act 22:16)

If man is totally passive and salvation is only about God then all men will be saved for that is His will.

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The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:3-4)


Not all will be saved, but God has made salvation available for all men by having Christ die for them and offer a sacrifice for sin.

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For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
(2Co 5:14-15)


« Last Edit: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 03:01:24 by johntwayne »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 04:20:04 »
Man is not passive in salvation. God works for salvation and man must also obey.
John, I would think you would agree what you believe, or I believe, has no truth if our understanding is not in accordance with the testimony of God from his word.

One question for you~how passive was Jesus laying in the grave when God raised him from the dead?  As a man, what part did he contribute to his bodily resurrection? Or, did he work as a partner with God for him to be raised from the grave? We know the answer to this question~it took the power of God to quicken him and raised him up to immortality.

John, it took the same power to quicken us and raised us up as a new creation with eternal life after the very image of Jesus Christ, whose resurrection secured the spiritual and bodily resurrection of God's elect. This is from God's testimony, not my personal beliefs yet, I believe these truths because it is clearly taught in the scriptures.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:18-20~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
This is the third thing that Paul prayed might be revealed to Ephesian saints for their profit. If you believe the gospel, God worked the exceeding greatness of His mighty power in you. This great and glorious power did things to His Son (1:20), which He also did to us (2:1-6). It takes further revelation by the Spirit for us to fully grasp the work of God in regeneration.

John, you should be able to at least confess this truth, being so clearly stated. By nature we had no inclination or desire for God ~we much preferred the devil himself as our leader, and we all followed the course of the world by nature. (2:1-3). It would not matter if one rose from the dead and came to warn you of hell (Luke 16:31). John, would not matter if we were given every possible environmental advantage (Isaiah 26:10). We all should know John's teaching on the subject of human blindness to Christ (John 3:3; 6:44; 8:45; 10:26)~it's mentioned many times over, why closed your eyes to to this simple truth, that even your own heart should agree to it.
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Ephesians 1:20~Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
It took the exceeding greatness of His mighty power to raise Jesus Christ from the dead! Was Christ passive in this? You know he was.

This same power used to raise Jesus Christ from the dead and advance Him into the heavenly places was shown in us by the act of God quickening us and raising us up from spiritual death in sins and trespasses to spiritual life in Jesus Christ and our vital union to Him (1:19 cp 2:1-6).

No wonder regeneration is described and compared to resurrection (John 5:25-29; Rev 20:6)! If He used His exceeding great and mighty power to regenerate us, then we had NO PART in this, we were 100% passive, just as our Lord Jesus was, or if reject this, then, in essence, you are saying that Jesus did not truly die 100% he had some life in him in order to contribute to his bodily resurrection. I do not believe you would want to confess that, so you should also receive the truth that we too were 100% spiritual die in sins and needed the SAME POWER to give us life just as God did to Jesus.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 04:24:38 »
The power works in us who believe RB. That's our part.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 04:28:47 »
In Acts 2 lost men were told what they must do for God to save them and forgive their sins.
John, that's a assumption by you, which you cannot prove. I have dealt with this verse more than once and would do so again if you like. These men proved by their question to the apostles that God had quickened their hearts before they ever heard Peter's message, that message was truly a source of information for their practical salvation of coming to an understanding of Jesus Christ, an understanding they did not possess before.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #20 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 04:54:00 »
It's not an assumption. The text clearly tells them what they must do to be forgiven of their sins. Forgiveness is an essential part of regeneration and being born again.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #21 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 06:32:13 »
It's not an assumption. The text clearly tells them what they must do to be forgiven of their sins. Forgiveness is an essential part of regeneration and being born again.
John, your attempt of using a logical fallacy is deceitful~maybe unintentional, that's between you and the God of heaven and earth. I never denied
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forgiveness is an essential part of regeneration and being born again.
that's not what we were discussing. You said:
Quote from: johntwayne on: Today at 02:47:10
Man is not passive in salvation.
and I addressed that point by using Ephesians 1;18-20 down to Ephesians 2:1. Now, if you want to refute what I said with scriptures then you can try. Your Red herring fallacy is distracting from what I said and making others (and yourself) believe you have answered my post to you when in truth you have altogether avoided answering me.

And yes, you are assuming a doctrine that you cannot prove and will never prove with God's word.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #22 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 06:55:37 »
John, that's a assumption by you, which you cannot prove.
As Johnt said, it is not an assumption.  That is what the Bible says in Acts 2:38, literally.  They asked the question, "what shall we do?". Peter answered their question with the direct answer, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: RB
I have dealt with this verse more than once...
Yes, you have; and always wrong.

You quoted Ephesians 1:20 to show that the power of God which He used in raising Christ Jesus from the dead is the same power which He uses in our regeneration (2:1-6).  You actually quoted Ephesians 1:18-20; but you missed the very important part in verse 19.  As Johnt pointed out, that power of God was directed "toward us who believe". As stated there, believing was a prerequisite to having that power of God directed toward us. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #23 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 06:59:26 »
John, your attempt of using a logical fallacy is deceitful~maybe unintentional
What logical fallacy?  Johnt used no logical fallacy in any of his responses.  If you think he did, then please be specific and point out the fallacy.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #24 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 07:14:54 »
And yes, you are assuming a doctrine that you cannot prove and will never prove with God's word.
The proof is the very scripture you posted but have ignored or have refused to accept what God's word actually says.

Your position against Johnt's statement that "Man is not passive in salvation" is simply wrong.  And the very passage of scripture you used against him only proves that you are wrong. Believing is not passive.  Believe is an active verb. And as pointed out in the verses you posted, belief is the prerequisite.  The believer is the one to whom the power of God for salvation is directed. That is the message loud and clear in Ephesians 1 and 2.  You, yourself, have proved that; you have just failed to recognize that you did.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #25 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 07:57:46 »
You quoted Ephesians 1:20 to show that the power of God which He used in raising Christ Jesus from the dead is the same power which He uses in our regeneration (2:1-6).  You actually quoted Ephesians 1:18-20; but you missed the very important part in verse 19.  As Johnt pointed out, that power of God was directed "toward us who believe". As stated there, believing was a prerequisite to having that power of God directed toward us.
4WD, you misquoted Ephesians 1:18-20 and totally flip the scriptures around from what Paul actually said!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Ephesians 1:18-20~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
4WD, we believe "ACCORDING TO" the working of God's mighty power~not as you have twisted God's word to fit your doctrine.......
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 06:55:37
you missed the very important part in verse 19.  As Johnt pointed out, that power of God was directed "toward us who believe". As stated there, believing was a prerequisite to having that power of God directed toward us.
The word of God clearly said we believe according TO the working of his mighty power. Meaning in accordance to~our faith is in accordance TO God's mighty power! The analogy between Christ being dead in the grave and us in our sins~it took the SAME POWER to resurrect both! Apart from God's power in each's resurrection, there would have been NO resurrection of Christ and of sinners!

Any person reading our discourse back and forth should be able to see clearly who is corrupting the scriptures and who is allowing God's word to be its own interpreter.
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As stated there, believing was a prerequisite to having that power of God directed toward us.
Who needs the power of God IF WE of our own selves have the power to believe~besides how much faith does one need before the law of God can declare that person free of condemnation? I know, do you?
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 08:00:54 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 13:34:37 »
Your position against Johnt's statement that "Man is not passive in salvation" is simply wrong.  And the very passage of scripture you used against him only proves that you are wrong. Believing is not passive.  Believe is an active verb.
Believing is an active verb, but believing is not the means of regeneration, but is the evidence of being already born of God!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
1st John 5:1~Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
'IS" is a verb known as a state of being verb. State of being verbs do not express any specific activity or action but instead describe existence. A person who believes is ALREADY born of God, so, faith is not the means of our new birth, but the evidence of being already born of God, just as John 5:24 states very clearly.

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #27 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 13:39:04 »
What logical fallacy?  Johnt used no logical fallacy in any of his responses.  If you think he did, then please be specific and point out the fallacy.
Read reply#21 again and you should see the fallacy he used. I was very specific and pointed it out~did not get enough sleep last night?  ::smile::

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #28 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 15:41:25 »
Quote
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
(1Jn 5:4)

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 03:56:22 »
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. (1Jn 5:4)
This is true, but, man by nature is void of faith and unable of his own power, strength to have faith, and even worse, does not desire to believe for apart from the grace of God, it is foolishness unto man, thinking within himself that his wisdom IS ABOVE such things, and religion is for the weak-minded and those folks who are unable to success by their wisdom in this world. If you believe otherwise, then you have been deceived by them!

Of course, that's just part of the truth, the main truth is....... whoever has faith, that faith if the results of the faith of Jesus Christ given to the members of his elect body! Anyone who fails to see and understand this truth has not so much as learned of Jesus Christ and the truth that is in him, where all truth begins, dwells and ends. One of the most glorious truths in the holy scriptures is:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Impossible for the natural man to have true faith in God/scriptures apart from the faith of Jesus Christ freely given to the elect body of Christ for Jesus' sake. Folks who cannot grasp this truth has not as of yet learned of Christ who IS the TRUTH, WAY, and ETERNAL LIFE.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 03:59:23 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #30 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 05:28:30 »
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"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
(Gal 2:20 NASV)
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 05:37:19 by johntwayne »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 05:44:19 »
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
(Gal 2:20)
John, nice try, and I know many people will follow you just as you have followed those before you, yet a closer look even at this verse will show how you are wrong.
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Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
What I highlighted proves your use of the word "in" does not flow with what the rest of the verse clearly said.

Later...........I need to head to Home Depot for my bride, before she heads to the lake with the family. It's vacation for about thirty to forty family members except for dear old dad, who has too many commitments. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #32 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 06:02:34 »
Another instance of version aversion. We HAVE to decide on which translation is correct. Faith IN or faith OF Christ. And the argument can not be the KJV is right because it is the KJV. Christ’s faithfulness is always in play or a constant. MAN’s faith IN HIM is the variable. It’s not either/or. We are saved by grace through our faith in Christ, made possible BECAUSE OF His faithfulness. Without his faithfulness, we got nothin’.

« Last Edit: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 09:24:08 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 06:24:24 »
Another instance of version aversion. We HAVE to decide on which translation is correct. Faith IN or faith OF Christ. And the argument can not be the KJV is right because it is the KJV.
Is there a difference in the Greek on that verse between the TR (basis for KJV, NKJV) and the N/A Text? (basis for most other modern translations)

NASB (very accurate to the N/A text) says "in."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 06:37:06 »
4WD, you misquoted Ephesians 1:18-20 and totally flip the scriptures around from what Paul actually said! 4WD, we believe "ACCORDING TO" the working of God's mighty power~
It is hard to imagine that you could be so myopic in your reading of that passage. There are some things that Paul says he gives thanks for us in his prayers (v.16).  They are (1)  God gives spirit of wisdom (2) God gives a spirit of revelation (v.17).  He also says that he prays for our enlightenment so that we will know (1) the hope of His calling (2) the riches of the glory of His inheritance (v.18) and (3) the surpassing greatness of His power (v.19).   Paul is praying that all these be directed toward us who believe.  He says all these are in accordance with the "working of His mighty power, His mighty strength, the strength of His might.  It is all these, not the believing, which is in accordance with God's power. 

Again, Paul's prayer, that is directed toward us who believe, is that God, by that mighty power that raised Christ and seated Him at His side, would grant us all these things, i.e., a spirit of wisdom, a spirit of revelation, enlightenment to know the hope of His calling, enlightenment to know the riches of the glory of His inheritance, and the greatness of His power.