Author Topic: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3  (Read 2714 times)

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #105 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 09:12:23 »
So basically it boils down to what children of my generation were always told when we would ask why. Because I (GOD) said so? NO wiggle room to come to an understanding of why when we would ask that question.
I'm of that generation, and until God by his grace and power change my heart, I was quite satisfy serving my lust, and had very little desire to hear the gospel, well, to be honest, and looking back, I had no desire.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:20:35
Perhaps we should change that poster from decades ago from Uncle Sam wants you... with that finger pointing to all young people and change it to God wants you and you have no option..... BECAUSE that is exactly what YOU are saying.....
That sign would be false~first, God does not desire all, if He did, then all would come. God has not set His love upon all, only those whom he purpose to love according to the council of his own will~most of them are the nobodies of this world, those that are not.
Quote from: MOSES TO ISRAEL
Deuteronomy 7:6-8aFor thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:4,5~"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
One more:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:26-31~For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
These scriptures give to us a little insight into His will and WHY God chose who he did. So, if you disagree, and dislike what God has done, take it up with Him.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:20:35
I cringe when I read words from you like "Would you also agree that all others consider the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ foolishness?"
Really? Those are not my words but Paul's?
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:18~For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The reason as to WHY they perish is the gospel was foolishness to them and WOULD HAV EBEEN to us as well, apart from the grace of God and His power in regenerating us, by created a new man within that would love both Him and His word. We were election according to God's foreknowledge of Him knowing all things the end from the beginning. HE KNEW that if he did not elect some BOTH among men and angels, NONE would have ever been preserved form perishing. So, if you have a problem with me saying that the gospel is foolishness to the lost, then pray tell me why you would even think otherwise in light of BOTH scriptures and your heart knowing that the world hates folks witnesses to them about Jesus Christ, so much so, that most places forbid even folks of religion form coming into their subdivisions, workplaces, etc. Also, aren't you a little ashamed of truly showing others that you have a strong faith in God, knowing that they would think you a simpleton? This SIN works in the hearts of all men even the righteous MUST work against this wicked sin dwelling in our members.
Quote from: Paul to righteous Timothy
2nd Timothy 1:8~"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;"
Know why Paul warned Timothy to NOT be ashamed of the testimony of Jesus Christ, nor of him being a prisoner of Jesus Christ? Because we all still live in this body OF SIN and death, the most righteous person alive has the same battles as anyone else.  Yes, the gospel is foolishness to every unregenerated person alive.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:20:35
If it were not for the cross even you would be lost. THAT IS FACT.
You are wrong in your understanding of the gospel. The gospel was NOT given to give spiritual life but to BRING spiritual life TO LIGHT. 
Quote from: Paul who knew the purpose of the gospel
2nd Timothy 1:9,10~Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"
The gospel cannot give spiritual life to a dead sinner~the purpose of the gospel is to bring to LIGHT where God has given LIFE by HIS almighty power. I could spend a few hours on this one scripture but for now, will forbear and wait so others can either prove me wrong in what I'm saving or ask questions. Rella, I will say this, apart from the gospel and what Jesus Christ did for me, I would indeed perish along with all others~yet, he who knew no in became sin for us, that we would be made the righteousness of God THROUGH HIM~through the redemption that is in him, etc.
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 07:20:35
If it were not for the cross the words "covered under the blood of Jesus would have no reason or meaning.
That is a red herring fallacy~I agree with your statement, yet that has not one thing to do with what I said, we are not talking the cross and being covered under the blood of Jesus having meaning, that's a different subject altogether.   

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #106 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 09:40:19 »
RB,

I finished reading the post. I was raised with "free will" and heard, and still hear, these phrases that are cited verbatim like Gospel like "God could have created automatons but He wanted us to freely choose Him" since as far back as I can possibly remember.

But where did I find this in the Bible? Romans 17?

I keep seeing people saying "but look at these CHOICES" as if adding words and doctrine to Scripture is necessary to explain that people make choices. I'm not terribly familiar with Calvinism but I still find it very hard to believe that I'd ever find too many people who would dispute that Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God.

I don't find any extra doctrine to be necessary either way. "Free Will" is not in Scripture, plain and simple, while we do see choices, and the repeated message that God is the One Who creates people to make the choices that they do.

It is such commonplace understanding that people make choices based on who they are, "how they're wired." We have figures of speech like "didn't know you had that in you" in response to the occasional choice that we fail to predict out of another person. I think people tend to get it: people make "choices" with discernable patterns, and that's because their choices come out of who they are. Inevitably, God created everything about everyone.

I Googled a link that has a good list of Scriptures with a couple I thought of that are missing and I have no doubt that people so tortured by them and running to added words of "Free Will" have a way of talking around all of them by now, also no doubt hiding in crowds to help each other validate their beliefs.

https://reformedwiki.com/verses/predestination

A couple I didn't see was the whole of Romans 9 and also 1 Peter 2:8 and still a ton of others, really, like much that was said about Judas, the sons of Eli, it goes on and on.

"Free Will" is not in the Bible. It simply isn't there. If someone thinks that's necessary to add a whole doctrine that is not preached, that should be a red flag for their understanding of what's going on; it's not necessary to explain choices. No writer of the Bible (apostles or prophets) saw any need to say a word of this doctrine. It's just hand-waving for getting rid of the common knowledge that choices people make are caused by who they are, and whoever can handle the concept that we are created by God understands that yes, God also causes what occurs.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #107 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:09:50 »
That sign would be false~first, God does not desire all, if He did, then all would come. God has not set His love upon all, only those whom he purpose to love according to the council of his own will
Of all the misguided teachings of Calvinism and Reformed Theology that is probably the most despicable, the most reprehensible. And that because of what it says about God.   It says that God has intentionally created a world full of human beings, the most of whom He will delight in sending them off to eternal condemnation.  Peter declared that such a teaching is absolutely false: 2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But Calvinism rejects the clear reading of that verse and insists that it doesn't really mean what it says and instead tries to convince us that God is the ogre that does and will do far worse than anything man has done or could do to man, simply for His own good pleasure.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #107 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:09:50 »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #108 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:16:05 »
Quote
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Yes, there is a manner in which God is a character in His own story and as such He reaches out to EVERYONE to offer salvation that's available to the whole world, but few are enabled to accept it -- they were not designed by God to make choices for salvation. Peter will be Peter while Judas will be Judas, both made by God and both making choices in character with themselves according to how God made them.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #108 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:16:05 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #109 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:20:27 »
To add to the citation of 2 Peter 3:9: 2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


We can't say that 'anyone" is limited to "any one of you" to whom Peter is speaking, to be sure, but the context of what Peter is saying pertains to God's interaction with His creations: He is patient with His creations in the intent that no one should perish. That's not the same concept of who God created in such a way that they would make the choice for salvation.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #109 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:20:27 »



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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #110 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:25:19 »
"Free Will" is not in the Bible. It simply isn't there. If someone thinks that's necessary to add a whole doctrine that is not preached, that should be a red flag for their understanding of what's going on; it's not necessary to explain choices.
Of course it is necessary to explain choices. The very concept of "choose" demands free will. 

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #110 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:25:19 »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #111 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:28:10 »
Quote
Of course it is necessary to explain choices. The very concept of "choose" demands free will.

Scripture depicts the commonplace occurrence of choices. People and even animals and computers do this all the time.

There is no additional teaching of "free will" as a subject or doctrine. It is added to Scripture.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #112 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:31:21 »
they were not designed by God to make choices for salvation. Peter will be Peter while Judas will be Judas, both made by God and both making choices in character with themselves according to how God made them.
Ah yes, the old fuel for the fires of hell.  Such a sick view of God.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #113 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:35:22 »
Quote
Ah yes, the old fuel for the fires of hell.  Such a sick view of God.

And you are an example of someone Paul predicted:

Romans 9:19  One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #113 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 10:35:22 »

Online RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #114 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 11:17:03 »
It says that God has intentionally created a world full of human beings, the most of whom He will delight in sending them off to eternal condemnation.
You said a lot in a few words that I do not have time to answer now, but will for Cally more than for you since I have many times over.

Briefly~God created Adam and Eve with a FREE WILL and LEFT them to their own free will and we all see and have experienced the results of the fall being of their natural generation. God alone is immutable, not angels, and certainly not flesh and blood.

That is all under the first covenant~the New covenant God we see and understand where God SECURES eternal life by TWO immutable acts of God~his OATH and HIS PROMISES for his elect through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son. So much could be said along these lines.....I have so many times over already.... yet, will again as questions and statements come through all of us posting.

Since the fall of Adam, NO MAN is born with a free will, all are conceived children of darkness (even his elect) with a spirit of disobedience dwelling within them~Jesus Christ came to set the CAPTIVES FREE from the bondage of sin and the works of Satan that all of us are filled with. He does this by creating within us a NEW MAN which is created after the very image of His Son, Jesus Christ, and it is THROUGH the new man, we are FREE to excise obedience to the word of God, and ONLY those who are born of God have THAT FREE WILL, the old man Adam is NOT free but has been taken captive by the old serpent, the Devil himself.

Briefly~
Quote
2nd Peter 3:9~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Peter is writing to
Quote
2nd Peter 1:1-3~"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
The USWARD are those that have obtained like precious faith, according to God's divine power, the SAME power that will bring the rest of the elect to repentance, and until that is completed none of them will perish in the lake of fire WHICH IS the second and final death for the wicked.

There is NO such doctrine as suffering in hell for eternity~ that's a Catholic Fable that others have brought into. Jesus Christ PAID in FULL for our gift of eternal life, he did so by being put to DEATH, ~it is a mockery to teach that payment for sinners rejecting Christ is a debt that will be paid for all eternity world without end~DEATH is the payment for our sin, not suffering for eternity! Those that die in their sins will be cast into the lake of fire WHICH IS the second death.

Enough for now. RB
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 11:19:23 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #115 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 11:36:10 »
Scripture depicts the commonplace occurrence of choices. People and even animals and computers do this all the time.

There is no additional teaching of "free will" as a subject or doctrine. It is added to Scripture.

The choices made by animals and computers have nothing to do with good or evil.  In the discussion of free will, we are not talking about the choice between potato chips and French fries.  We are talking about obeying God's commands.  Do you really believe that God would command that human beings love Him and then prohibit some from doing so?  I would certainly hope you would not think that about God.  But apparently you and other Calvinist types do. 

Luk 11:11  If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12  Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Would you, if you had a dog, tie the dog to a post, walk a ways away from it, command that it "come" and then whip, beat or or otherwise severely punish the dog if it didn't do as you commanded?  I would certainly hope not, but that seems to be your description of God's dealings with mankind.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #116 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 11:46:12 »
Briefly~God created Adam and Eve with a FREE WILL and LEFT them to their own free will and we all see and have experienced the results of the fall being of their natural generation. God alone is immutable, not angels, and certainly not flesh and blood.
If that is true and neither Adam nor Eve were immutable, then of course, as you say, certainly flesh and blood is not immutable; thus Adam and Eve did not change.  If they had free will before they ate of the forbidden fruit, then they had free will after they ate of the forbidden fruit, as did all of their descendants.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #117 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 11:56:58 »
Quote
Ah yes, the old fuel for the fires of hell.  Such a sick view of God.

Roman's 9:22
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #118 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:01:18 »
4WD:

With your quotation of Luke 11:11-13, the rebellious are not predestined to make the choice to ask for the good gifts that God gives freely.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #119 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:09:09 »

Cally:

OK, I get it.  You consider yourself to be nothing more than a computer. 
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:12:13 by 4WD »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #120 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:12:21 »
Quote
The choices made by animals and computers have nothing to do with good or evil.

The fact that there are choices related to good or evil does not mean "free will" exists for that any more than for any other kind of choice -- it is an added theology found nowhere in Scripture, discussed by no prophets, teachers or apostles.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #121 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:14:14 »
Quote
Cally:

OK, I get it.  You consider yourself to be nothing more than a computer.

No, human beings have souls and so have different goals behind their choices, but the mechanisms behind the causation of choices are similar. That's why we have figures of speech like "didn't know he had it in him." Peter acts consistent with Peter as God designed him, Judas acts consistent with Judas as God designed him.

People aren't computers, but the cause and effect that causes decision making is the same.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #122 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:19:47 »
Almost by definition, if the is not free choice, then there is no such thing as sin - PERIOD.  Talk around it all you want; but God would not and does not prohibit you from obeying and then condemn you to hell for disobeying.  If you believe otherwise, then you are to be most pitied.


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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #123 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:21:27 »
Also Romans 9:20-21
 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?


Paul compares humans to pieces of pottery to make the point. I was just using computers to be a little more specific about decision-making causation.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #124 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:25:14 »
Quote
Almost by definition, if the is not free choice, then there is no such thing as sin - PERIOD.  Talk around it all you want; but God would not and does not prohibit you from obeying and then condemn you to hell for disobeying.  If you believe otherwise, then you are to be most pitied.

What I'll do "all I want" is quote Scripture, not rely on added doctrine of "free will," and everything necessary is perfectly understandable. Some are designed by God in such a way that result in choosing Him -- Peter will act in the character of Peter, who was made by God -- and not others -- Judas will act in character with Judas according to how God designed him.

It's common understanding, "get to know someone," all choices are caused by how a person IS, and as we believe God created everything, indeed how God created that person.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #125 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:26:27 »
No, human beings have souls and so have different goals behind their choices, but the mechanisms behind the causation of choices are similar. That's why we have figures of speech like "didn't know he had it in him." Peter acts consistent with Peter as God designed him, Judas acts consistent with Judas as God designed him.

People aren't computers, but the cause and effect that causes decision making is the same.
Who cares?  The net results are the same.  If there are goals behind their choices, then according to you it is God who put those goals there.  The net result is you are a computer.

If one murders another and if the reason why he murdered is because God designed him to murder, how could you sit on a jury and condemn him for doing precisely what God designed and caused him to do?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #126 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:28:24 »
Quote
If one murders another and if the reason why he murdered is because God designed him to murder, how could you sit on a jury and condemn him for doing precisely what God designed and caused him to do?

Romans 9:19  One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #127 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:37:17 »
Romans 9:19  One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
Well then how could you punish someone did precisely as God willed?  Oh of course.  you could do that because that was God's will.  As I said, you are to be most pitied.

I am curious.  Do you think that it could be God's will that you only think you are saved when you really aren't?  Put that in your computer program and see how it comes out.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #128 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:42:55 »
Quote
Well then how could you punish someone did precisely as God willed?  Oh of course.  you could do that because that was God's will.  As I said, you are to be most pitied.

I am curious.  Do you think that it could be God's will that you only think you are saved when you really aren't?  Put that in your computer program and see how it comes out.

Romans 9:19-22

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #129 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 12:44:39 »
Quote
Do you think that it could be God's will that you only think you are saved when you really aren't?

Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #130 on: Sat Sep 25, 2021 - 13:57:48 »
Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
Obviously they have no righteousness of their own if everything they say and do is by God's design and will.  So your answer is yes, it could that God makes you to only think you are saved when you really aren't? Oh what a terrible place to be.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #131 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 04:55:23 »
If that is true and neither Adam nor Eve were immutable, then of course, as you say, certainly flesh and blood is not immutable; thus Adam and Eve did not change.
4WD, what does man being mutable has to do do with being changed as far as free will goes? It makes no sense in what you said.  You added:
Quote from: 4WD Reply #116 on: Yesterday at 11:46:12
If they had free will before they ate of the forbidden fruit, then they had free will after they ate of the forbidden fruit, as did all of their descendants.
True, they did have a free will which was created in righteousness, with wisdom, understanding, and true knowledge of the will of God their Creator. God's testimony after he created man was this:
Quote from: THE HOLY SHOST
Genesis 1:27-31~"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
4WD, God created man and woman in his very own image, and that image consisted in this: righteousness, wisdom, knowledge, and true understanding. When man sinned that image was stolen from him by the father of lies and deceit, the devil himself~man at that point of disobedience took on the image of the devil...... darkness, wickedness, void of TRUE wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. We know this by hundreds of scriptures~also, by knowing what takes place at the regeneration of a sinner~he is created after the image of Jesus Christ in true holiness, with wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 4:22-24~That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
One more for now:
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 3:9,10~"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
God created man after His own image, which image Adam LOST when he sinned~in the NT it is called the OLD MAN which sinned and became corrupt in all of its faculties and at that point of sinning became at enmity against God so that he is not subject to the word of God NEITHER INDEED CAN BE! So said Paul in Romans 8:7,8 . From Adam on all are conceived after Adam's image post the fall of him.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Genesis 5:3~"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Meaning after his fallen image, which is an image of disobedience, void of spiritual wisdom, understanding, and true knowledge. Every child from its mother's womb leaves that womb having the image of the old man (Adam), and not until they are born again by the Spirit of God are they renewed back to the image of Him who created man in the beginning. 
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 04:59:40 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #132 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 07:16:33 »
True, they did have a free will which was created in righteousness, with wisdom, understanding, and true knowledge of the will of God their Creator.
Yes they were created in righteousness; but created in wisdom, understanding and true knowledge of the will of God?  I think not so much.  They ate of the forbidden fruit.  That wasn't very wise; and it was through eating of the forbidden fruit that their eyes were opened and they knew good and evil. We could probably carry on a long discussion of what that meant, but no matter.  You argue that the reason we sin is because we are born unrighteous in sin; but does not align with the fact that that they were created in righteousness and yet sinned.  We sin for the same basic reason that Adam sinned.  He was human with a human nature.  We are human with a human nature.
Quote from: RB
4WD, God created man and woman in his very own image, and that image consisted in this: righteousness, wisdom, knowledge, and true understanding. When man sinned that image was stolen from him by the father of lies and deceit, the devil himself~man at that point of disobedience took on the image of the devil...... darkness, wickedness, void of TRUE wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. We know this by hundreds of scriptures
You say that when man sinned that image was stolen or lost.  You say we know this by hundreds of scriptures.  Yet no such statement ever appears. There is no scripture that says that Adam lost anything.  It says that their eyes were opened and it says the fruit of the tree was desirable to make one wise and to know good from evil. Nothing in all of that says or suggests that their having been created in God's image was lost as you claim.  And God's own statement of the reason against a man killing another man is because man is in the image of God (Gen 9:6). God gave that commandment to Noah, long after Adam and Eve had sinned.  If man is no longer in the image of God, then clearly that commandment is null and void; it is of no consequence.
Quote from: RB
~also, by knowing what takes place at the regeneration of a sinner~he is created after the image of Jesus Christ in true holiness, with wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
First there is no creation in regeneration.  Have you ever wondered why it is called regeneration? It is a restoration, a rebirth of the spirit. It is true the instant of that restoration, sins are forgiven and the spirit is made alive again.  But there is no sudden increase in wisdom, knowledge and understanding. I have known a lot of people both before and after they were reborn, regenerated, and none so instantaneous increases resulted. And as a matter of truth, Jesus, in His discussion with Nicodemus, said that no external evidence of being born again could be sensed (John 3:8).
Quote from: RB
One more for now: God created man after His own image, which image Adam LOST when he sinned.....
You keep saying that, but it simply is not true. Nowhere is it ever said that Adam LOST the image in which he was created.
Quote from: RB
.....~in the NT it is called the OLD MAN which sinned and became corrupt in all of its faculties and at that point of sinning became at enmity against Go
Yes the OLD MAN became corrupt when he, the OLD MAN, sinned.  But there is nothing about becoming corrupt in all of its faculties, whatever you think that might mean.  Paul describes that corruption as being dead in trespasses and sin. But he never suggests that there is any loss of mental capability with having sinned or with the loss of any physical capability.  And there is no sudden increase in any of that in "putting on the NEW MAN". You have a terribly distorted view of the condition of the spirit before and after regeneration.  What does the passage you quoted from Ephesians say?  It says the new self has been created in righteousness and holiness.  There is nothing there about any change in all of its faculties.  Righteousness and holiness are spiritual qualities not physical.   Paul said that in laying aside, in putting off the old man, the spirit is REnewed (Eph 4:23). Please note that to be REnewed, the spirit must have been at some point new. And notice also from the passage you quoted from Colossians, that knowledge is BEING RENEWED, it is an on-going process, not any instantaneous change as you continue to profess.
Quote from: RB
So said Paul in Romans 8:7,8 . From Adam on all are conceived after Adam's image post the fall of him. Meaning after his fallen image, which is an image of disobedience, void of spiritual wisdom, understanding, and true knowledge. Every child from its mother's womb leaves that womb having the image of the old man (Adam), and not until they are born again by the Spirit of God are they renewed back to the image of Him who created man in the beginning.
That is so not true.  Remember that in eating the forbidden fruit, God said that Adam and Eve is "become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen 3:5,22).  Conceived after Adam's image speaks to the flesh, not the spirit.  Man receives his flesh from man; man receives his spirit from God.  There is nothing in Romans 8 about man being in Adam's fallen image.  Paul's discussion in Romans 8:1-11 is the contrast of the mind of a man set upon the flesh versus the mind of a man set upon the Spirit.  There is nothing there about Adam or his troubles. The renewing is of the man's spirit, not Adam's.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #133 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 07:26:00 »
Buff, I mostly liked and agreed with your #3; where is #4?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #134 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 07:32:38 »
Will you go with God (Jesus) in Romans 3:9-18, and additionally Psalms 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalm 5:9, Psalm 140:3, Psalm 10:7, Isaiah 59:7,8, Psalm 36:1?  Until we are drawn by the Holy Spirit, no one can choose God (John 6:44).
John6:45 and Romans 10:5-21.

Online RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #135 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 08:02:43 »
Yes they were created in righteousness; but created in wisdom, understanding and true knowledge of the will of God?  I think not so much.  They ate of the forbidden fruit.  That wasn't very wise; and it was through eating of the forbidden fruit that their eyes were opened and they knew good and evil.
Again, it goes back to the truth God ALONE is immutable~IMMUTABILITY is one of the Divine perfections which is not sufficiently pondered. It is one of the excellencies of the Creator which distinguishes Him from all His creatures~both angels and man. God is perpetually the same: subject to no change in His being, attributes, or determinations. Therefore God is compared to a rock (Deuteronomy 32:4, etc.) which remains immovable when the entire ocean surrounding it is continually in a fluctuating state; even so, though all creatures are subject to change and will apart from the grace and power of God securing them form changing. God is immutable. Because God has no beginning and no ending, He can know no change. He is everlastingly "the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

GOD IS IMMUTABLE IN HIS ESSENCE. His nature and being are infinite, and so, subject to no mutations. There never was a time when He was not; there never will come a time when He shall cease to be. God has neither evolved, grown, nor improved. All that He is today, He has ever been, and ever will be. "I am the LORD, I change not" (Malachi 3:6) is His own unqualified affirmation. He cannot change for the better, for He is already perfect; and being perfect, He cannot change for the worse. Altogether unaffected by anything out-side Himself, improvement or deterioration is impossible. He is perpetually the same. He only can say, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exo 3:14). He is altogether uninfluenced by the flight of time. There is no wrinkle upon the brow of eternity. Therefore His power can never diminish nor His glory ever fade.

So, God is immutable, a Divine attribute He only possesses~and because this is true, there had to be an election of grace if any would ever be saved from their own lack of strength/power to secure for themselves the right to eternal life.

Adam's disobedience was no fault on God's part, solely rested upon man's lack of power to keep himself from sinning and because Adam sinned~its wages is DEATH~ death..... both, the first and second death, which is eternal destruction, or perishing in the lake of fire.

No, It was not too wise for Adam to sin, yet he did NOT possess INFINITE WISDOM, yet his wisdom he did possess was NOT mixed with sin in his members, because His creator created him without sin in his members, but gave him ALL NE NEEDED to NOT sin, with one exception~God did not secures him from not sinning but left him to his OWN FREE WILL that was not under the power of evil, he did have the power to resist, only he did not have INFINITE power.

Later we will finish answering your post.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #136 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 08:52:14 »
I have no argument with the fact that God is immutable.  But I do not see what that has to do with whether or not Adam's sin is laid upon us.  I maintain that Adam's sin was not laid upon us.  God holds no man guilty for the sins of another.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #137 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 09:36:37 »
I maintain that Adam's sin was not laid upon us.  God holds no man guilty for the sins of another.
Briefly, well, sorta.....as much as possible. 
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:21,22~"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
4WD, then you are going against such plain scriptures as this one before us.

You believe God deals with mankind as with a field of corn, where each stalk stands upon its own individual root; but scriptures teach otherwise~ He dealt with all men as with a tree, all the branches of which have one common root and trunk. If you strike with an axe at the root of a tree, the whole tree falls—not only the trunk, but also the branches: all wither and die. So it was when Adam fell. God permitted Satan to lay the axe at the root of the tree, and when Adam fell, all his posterity fell with him. At one fatal stroke Adam was severed from communion with his Maker, and as the result “death passed upon all men.” Romans 5

Here, then, we learn what is the formal ground of man’s judicial condemnation before God. The popular idea of what renders man a sinner in the sight of heaven is altogether inadequate and false. The prevailing conception is that a sinner is one who commits and practices sin. It is true that this is the character of a sinner, but it certainly is not that which primarily constitutes him a sinner. The truth is that every member of our race enters this world a guilty sinner before he ever commits a single transgression personally. It is not only that he possesses a sinful nature, but he is directly “under condemnation.” We are legally constituted sinners neither by what we are nor by what we are doing, but by the disobedience of our federal head, Adam. Adam acted not for himself alone, but for all who were to spring from him.

On this point the teaching of the apostle Paul is plain and unambiguous. The terms of Romans 5:12-19, as we have shown before on this forum, not once, twice, but a few times over, are too varied and distinct to admit of any misconception: that it is on account of their sin in Adam, men, in the first instance, are accounted guilty and treated as such, as well as partake of a depraved nature. The language of 1st Corinthians 15:22 quoted above is equally unintelligible except on the supposition that both Adam and Christ sustained a representative character, in virtue of which the one involved the race in guilt and ruin, and the other, by His obedience unto death, secured the justification and salvation of all who were chosen in him~per Ephesians one. The actual condition of the human race, throughout its history, confirms the same: the apostle’s doctrine supplies the only adequate explanation of the universal prevalence of sin.

The human race is suffering now for the sin of Adam, or it is suffering for nothing at all. This earth is the scene of a grim and awful tragedy. In it we see misery and wretchedness, pain and poverty, decay and death, on every side. None escape. That “man is born unto trouble as the sparks fly upward” is an indisputable fact. But what is the explanation of it? Every effect must have a previous cause. If we are not being punished for Adam’s sin, then, coming into this world, we are “children of wrath,” alienated from God, corrupt and depraved, and on the broad road which leadeth to destruction, for nothing at all!

But it will be said, It was unjust to make Adam our federal head. How so? Is not the principle of representation a fundamental one in human society? The father is the legal head of his children during their minority: what he does, binds the family. A business house is held responsible for the transactions of its agents. The heads of a state are vested with such authority that the treaties they make are binding upon the whole nation. This principle is so basic it cannot be set aside. Every popular election illustrates the fact that a constituency will act through a representative and be bound by his acts. Human affairs could not continue, nor society exist without it. Why, then, be staggered at finding it inaugurated in Eden?

Consider the alternative. The race must have either stood in a full grown man living in a body of sin and death, with a full-orbed intellect or stood as babies, each entering his probation in the twilight of self-consciousness, each deciding his destiny before his eyes were half opened to what it all meant. How much better would that have been? How much more just? But could it not have been some other way? There was no other way that could be more righteous than God's way of doing it. It was either the baby or it was the perfect, well equipped, al~calculating man~the man who saw and comprehended everything. That man was Adam” . Yes, Adam, fresh from the hands of his creator, with no sinful ancestry behind him, with no depraved nature within. A man-made in the image and likeness of God, pronounced by Him “very good,” in fellowship with heaven. Who could have been a more suitable representative for us? NO ONE!

This has been the principle on which and the method by which God has acted all through. The posterity of Canaan were cursed for the single transgression of their parent (Gen. 9). The Egyptians perished at the Red Sea as the result of Pharaoh’s wickedness. When Israel became God’s witness in the earth it was the same. The sins of the fathers were to be visited upon the children: in consequence of Achan’s one sin the whole of his family were stoned to death. The high priest acted on behalf of the whole nation. Later, the king was held accountable for the conduct of his subjects. One acting on behalf of others, the one responsible for the many, is a basic principle both of human and divine government. We cannot get away from it; wherever we look, it stares us in the face.

Finally, a very important consideration~let it be pointed out that the sinner’s salvation is made to depend upon the same principle. Beware, 4WD, of quarreling with the justice of this law of representation. This principle wrecked us, and this principle alone can rescue us. The disobedience of the first Adam was the judicial ground of our condemnation; the obedience of the last Adam is the legal ground on which God alone can justify the sinner. The substitution of Christ in the place of His people, the imputation of their sins to Him and of His righteousness to them, is the good news of the gospel. But the principle of being saved by what another has done is only possible on the ground that we are lost through what another did. The two stand or fall together. If there had been no covenant of works there could have been no death in Adam, there could have been no life in Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Selah
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 14:04:56 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #138 on: Sun Sep 26, 2021 - 13:13:45 »
RB . 1 Corinthians 15:21,22 is speaking of physical death.  In Adam, all men are physical beings, all physical beings die.  That has nothing to do with Adam's sin except for that fact that he was ejected from the garden wherein there was the tree of life to stave off physical death.

I will come back later for the rest of you post.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #3
« Reply #139 on: Mon Sep 27, 2021 - 05:20:15 »
That sign would be false~first, God does not desire all, if He did, then all would come. God has not set His love upon all, only those whom he purpose to love according to the council of his own will~most of them are the nobodies of this world, those that are not.
Red - this point is easily dismissed by scripture.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Not wishing for any to perish.  Wishing for all to come to repentance.

Calvinism makes the HUGE mistake with the concepts of Limited atonement (that He died only for the "elect") and Total depravity (being unable to chose to follow HIM) that the list of the "elect" is unchanged from before time.

Of course, no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him or her. (John 6:44)  But that never says that He draws ONLY those who will ultimately be saved.  The Wesleyan concept of Previenient Grace allows for the Drawing of the Father, the free will choice of the person to accept that draw and come to repentance, or the choice to reject it.  That is much more in keeping with the rest of scripture.

 

     
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