Author Topic: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1  (Read 1963 times)

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jul 31, 2021 - 13:25:59 »

4WD:

    I need to do a little revising and correcting to my most recent response to you, RB, and Texas Conservative. I do not wish to be misunderstood or embrace a flaw.

    If a correction is warranted, and at this juncture I think it is, I will turn my compass in that direction. I will contrive the changes later today. Please look for them.

Buff



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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jul 31, 2021 - 16:09:07 »
4WD – RB – Texas Conservative:

    As you will note below, I have revised my earlier post by deleting “quickened” and “regenerated.” In the first paragraph, however, I have retained “regenerated.” Please re-read it as it now appears. I have checked numerous biblical Versions. The oldest Versions carry “quickened” in Eph. 2:5 & Col. 2:13 while the newer Versions use “made alive.”

    Additionally, I have checked Greek scholars and they do not translate “quickened” as “made alive,” but they employ the terms “reanimate,” which means “to give new life,” and “conjointly,” which means to “join together.” So, in essence, they are saying the same as “made alive.”

    That one is aroused when he is exposed to the message from  heaven relative to salvation, none of us will deny. But since the usage of “quickened” by the apostle Paul seems to have its roots related to “making alive” or “made alive,” I withdraw the term from the sense I have been using it. In the secular sense, however, as per Webster, I have been correct. But Webster is not Bible! Anyway, here is the revised post.—Buff.


<><><>

    As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, and Calvin himself, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is regenerated or made alive. Hyper-Calvinists claim that he must be born anew before he can come to the Lord. I know assuredly they make this claim, because I’ve debated the issue with them.

    If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven. Jesus clearly says a man may choose whether or not to obey God. But how may he choose unless he is endowed with free will? He cannot. Note, please, Jesus’ words in John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God...”

    But is he aroused or stimulated prior to his choosing to obey God? A receptive person is aroused when he hears the message of salvation. Up to that point, he is “dead”—inactive, dormant—to the things of God. But when he hears the message of salvation, he is aroused or excited.

    However, this does not translate into being born again. It is only the beginning of the new birth process, as “faith comes by hearing the message” [of salvation] [Rom. 10:17]. The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation [repentance], and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions. Listen to the writer of the Book of Hebrews. “And without faith it is impossible to please God” [Heb. 11:6].

    On the birthday of the Christian community, 3,000 people, after being mentally awakened—“cut to the heart”—with the message of deliverance, cried out, “Brothers” [that is, brother Jews], what shall we do?” Peter responded by informing them what they must do [Acts 2:37-38]. You will carefully note that, even though aroused by the redemptive message, they had not yet been born again or received the forgiveness of sins. Peter informed them how to finalize their initial belief and obedience.

    True, the unregenerate man is aroused—not born again—prior to faith and repentance, as he is made aware of his need for salvation. His awareness occurs while he is steeped in sin or “dead in trespasses,” as he has not at this point been delivered or saved. The average Calvinist confuses arousement with the “new birth.” They are not the same.

    As I equate the new birth with salvation, Calvinists seem to be saying a man is saved, becomes a Christian, a child of God, a member of His household, and has been redeemed prior to his having faith, prior to his repenting, and prior to everything else. This collides with numerous scriptures, which places forgiveness of sins and salvation after faith and repentance.

    Let it be said that our God has never compelled anyone to possess faith or to alter his lifestyle [repent].  A man’s faith is not forced upon him. Nor is he compelled to believe. Also, he is not irresistibly drawn—that is, he cannot resist. The apostle Paul made it clear when he said, “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ” [Rom. 10:17].

<><><>

Thanks for reading my revision.—Buff.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 31, 2021 - 16:13:36 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #37 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 04:23:52 »
But none of that has to do with the meaning given to the term "quicken" or "quickened" in the NT.  And for what it is worth, those words are found only in the older English versions; the newer versions have "make alive" and "made alive" respectively and are not what is found in Acts 2:37 as you suggested.  To be quickened or made alive in the spiritual sense can only refer to being born again, i.e., regenerated.
I see clearly why you are steering Reformer away Acts 2:37, for THEN he could NOT use Acts 2:38 to teach Baptismal regeneration, or, one's sins are not remitted UNTIL they are baptized in water. Basically, the same doctrine preached by those in Acts 15:1~only they used circumcision as a MEANS OF the new birth.
Quote
Acts 15:1~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."
But, those in Acts 2:37 were pricked in their hearts by the preaching of the apostles, mainly Peter~being pricked is a evidence of a person already born of the Spirit, which is so clear by using others scriptures. We look for evidence of the new birth and then look for water to baptize them into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ~just as Philip did to the eunuch, who afterward went on his way rejoicing. Selah. 

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #37 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 04:23:52 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #38 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 04:53:55 »
I see clearly why you are steering Reformer away Acts 2:37, for THEN he could NOT use Acts 2:38 to teach Baptismal regeneration\.....
No, I wasn't trying to steer him away from Acts 2:37; he was just wrong in his thinking about the relation between the new birth and regeneration.  And neither he nor I teach baptismal regeneration.  He does teach baptism for the forgiveness of sin and the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit as is consistent with the NT teaching throughout.
Quote
author=RB] .....or, one's sins are not remitted UNTIL they are baptized in water. Basically, the same doctrine preached by those in Acts 15:1~only they used circumcision as a MEANS OF the new birth.
Acts 15:1 doesn't say anything about the new birth.  That was just the usual Judaizing that Paul dealt with throughout his ministry.
Quote from: RB
But, those in Acts 2:37 were pricked in their hearts by the preaching of the apostles, mainly Peter~being pricked is a evidence of a person already born of the Spirit, which is so clear by using others scriptures.
It doesn't say anything in Acts 2:37 about the new birth. But typically you see it there as you seem to see it everywhere, but it is nowhere that you seem to see it.
Quote from: RB
We look for evidence of the new birth and then look for water to baptize them into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ~just as Philip did to the eunuch, who afterward went on his way rejoicing. Selah.
As I said, you see it everywhere that it isn't.  There is nothing in the account of Philip and the eunuch that says one thing about the new birth, except that He was baptized which, from John 3, is the water part of born of water and Spirit.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 04:56:03 by 4WD »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #38 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 04:53:55 »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #39 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 05:18:48 »
As you will note below, I have revised my earlier post by deleting “quickened” and “regenerated.” In the first paragraph, however, I have retained “regenerated.” Please re-read it as it now appears. I have checked numerous biblical Versions. The oldest Versions carry “quickened” in Eph. 2:5 & Col. 2:13 while the newer Versions use “made alive.”

 Additionally,   I have checked Greek scholars and they do not translate “quickened” as “made alive,” but they employ the terms “reanimate,” which means “to give new life,” and “conjointly,” which means to “join together.” So, in essence, they are saying the same as “made alive.”

    That one is aroused when he is exposed to the message from  heaven relative to salvation, none of us will deny. But since the usage of “quickened” by the apostle Paul seems to have its roots related to “making alive” or “made alive,” I withdraw the term from the sense I have been using it. In the secular sense, however, as per Webster, I have been correct. But Webster is not Bible! Anyway, here is the revised post.—Buff.
Same confused message, I do not see any changes~and it seems to me you had a hard time confessing your use of words when in fact you said the very same thing as you said the first time~so, why even post again.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 16:09:07
That one is aroused when he is exposed to the message from  heaven relative to salvation, none of us will deny.
I will reject that because it is not biblically and you have no proof from the scriptures supporting your corrupt view of man by nature and the purpose of the gospel. The natural man CANNOT be "aroused" or, awaken by preaching of the cross, ONLY a child of God can be. (Romans 13:11; 1st Corinthians 15:34; Ephesians 5:14 etc.) A natural man cannot hear, see or even desire to do so.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
1st Corinthians 2:14~"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your use of the natural man being aroused through preaching is against the testimony of the scriptures and so, all that follows in your man-made system is likewise in defiance against heaven's testimony.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 16:09:07
  As per the mindset of the average Calvinist, and Calvin himself, man has a free will and can choose to do anything in his natural environment, but his free will and ability to choose ends at that point. He cannot exercise free will and choose to obey God until he is regenerated or made alive. Hyper-Calvinists claim that he must be born anew before he can come to the Lord. I know assuredly they make this claim, because I’ve debated the issue with them.
True statement and it is according to the very same doctrine that Jesus taught in John 3:1-8. I have looked at John 3:1-8 several times and would love to take you there and prove that Jesus taught the very same truth that EXCPET a man be born again he CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God and the truths contained in that kingdom.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST THE HYPER CALVINSIT ACCORDING TO REFOREMER
John 3:3~"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Reformer, I would love to debate John 3:1-8 with you but I'm sure will decline and probably a wise choice on your part just as Jesus at time ask questions and the Jews and Pharisees refuse to answer, knowing if they did, they would expose themselves for who they were!
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 16:09:07
If you will compare that sentiment to numerous biblical passages that teach the opposite, you will find that this dogma collides with heaven.
Show me those numerous passages, I desire to see them. I will not hold my breath until you do so.

I have already answered the remaining part of your post the first time around and see no need to do so again.

Reformer let us go to John 3:1-8 and see if your system will work there. I know Romans 3 and 8 would bury you alive if you bring your system there, but about John 3?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #39 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 05:18:48 »



Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #40 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 06:42:49 »
No, I wasn't trying to steer him away from Acts 2:37; he was just wrong in his thinking about the relation between the new birth and regeneration.  And neither he nor I teach baptismal regeneration. 
Well, you did see, if they were quicken, or made alive, then this happened before water baptism, which would contradict his understanding on WHEN a person's sins are forgiven. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error!
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 04:53:55
He does teach baptism for the forgiveness of sin and the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit as is consistent with the NT teaching throughout.
Red highlight are mine for discussion.

Then he and whoever else teaches this doctrine are teaching another gospel. The word of God teaches that the forgiveness of sins is THROUGH CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE, not ours! Every sinner is saved from sin and condemnation by grace through Christ's faith, obedience, and righteousness~IF NOT, then Christ died in vain. Do you and others not hear Paul?
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:19-21~"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Queestion for you and Reformer~HOW are we dead to the law? Hear Paul again:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 7:4~"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
4WD, to be short~we cannot be dead to God's broken law by OUR obedience, but solely upon the obedience of Christ who offered HIMSELF up for our sins, that we should be made the righteousness of God through him and on his behalf~ It can not be both ways! We are quickened to life BY GRACE ALONE through the faith of Jesus Christ~this is the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16 is the truth of the gospel in a nutshell.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 16:09:07
The new birth cannot be experienced without faith, without reformation [repentance], and without complete surrender to the Lord’s injunctions.
This is another gospel according to the epistle of Galatians. It could not be defined any clearer by those who know nothing of the gospel of JESUS CHRIST that exalts HIS life of perfect obedience and love for his God in the room of God's elect~and in due time each one of them is quickened to life and giving the free gift of eternal life.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:20-24~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
Redeemption is IN JESUS CHRIST, not in any works that a man thinks he has to do BEFORE he has the righteousness of God upon him.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #40 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 06:42:49 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #41 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 07:14:43 »
It would help if you would use a better translation.

Quote from: Paul
[size=10pt]Romans 3:20-24~For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. The Righteousness of God Through Faith. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,[/size]

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #42 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 07:23:30 »
Well, you did see, if they were quicken, or made alive, then this happened before water baptism....
No, I didn't see that because it doesn't say that. You say that but the Bible doesn't.  It doesn't say anything about being quickened or made alive before water baptism.  Again with your eisegesis.

More later--
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 07:25:38 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #43 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 14:56:07 »
It would help if you would use a better translation.
Two things~
Quote
2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
Many ways this is done, the first and foremost one is with rejecting the most reliable translation since the printing press invention for the English speaking people of this world, and truly the only one that was used for around three hundred years~the all-out attack upon the holy scriptures begun only a little over one hundred years ago with the RV to where we are now where there are hundred's to pick from that best goes along with one's beliefs/doctrines and lifestyle~and it is not going to stop until the Lord comes.

I have said this a few times and will repeat it again~I have read behind hundreds of old divines from different nations and you would think we ALL HAD THE SAME TRANSLATION of the scriptures, but this is no longer the case~when Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and hundreds more gave their commentary on the scriptures it was a word for word quote as our English version!

Secondly,
Quote
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
I care less how any man read these fourteen words, the truth here is clearly expressed: Sinners are justified FREELY by grace! If that is so, and according to God own testimony it IS SO, then no work can a sinner do to secure his justification, if so, then justification becomes work that must be performed, and can no longer be said we are justified freely by grace.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 11:5,6~Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Justification of a sinner whereby he/she is no longer under condemnation is 100% of grace without the deeds of the laws performed by the flesh.

We will add this one more thought~ if a sinner could be saved by his works, then he could glory, yet that will never happen before God.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:2~"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:23-31~"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
So, any works in time are the results of being born of God giving us a new nature, new man, which cannot sin and desires 100% to please only Him who created the new man after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ, the second Adam. The old man is at enmity against our new man and wars daily with him. The old man (the first Adam) loves darkness, lust, lies, pride, everything that is of this world the spirit of this world. Selah
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 03:25:28 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #43 on: Sun Aug 01, 2021 - 14:56:07 »

Offline RB

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #44 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 03:58:03 »
No, I didn't see that because it doesn't say that. You say that but the Bible doesn't.  It doesn't say anything about being quickened or made alive before water baptism.
4WD, it does not have to use those exact words, the context proves the doctrine and Peter knew they were by the very fact they were pricked in their hearts, which he knew those still in the flesh, or unregenerated without being IN THE SPIRIT could not be.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:23:30
Again with your eisegesis.
You being biased toward what you have been taught and have received will not allow you to see this truth that regeneration of the Spirit must precede any remorse for sins~to be pricked in one's heart is to be affected with sharp pain; to sting with remorse; it is a godly sorrow for one's sins....unregenerated sinners defend their sins and will not confess with godly sorrow and ask how can I make this right. Peter KNEW THIS TRUTH and so should all who read the scriptures seeking God's testimony on the doctrine they are seeking to understand. Romans 3 taking from the Psalms of David should make this so clear to all whose only desire is to defend the scriptures even when they expose us all of as wicked sinners capable of any sin under heaven for every sin dwells in our old man Adam, they just do not show up one day, sin is in our members, EVERY SIN! Righteous folks HATE their flesh and look forward to that day when we shall forever be free from this body of SIN and DEATH.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:23:30
It doesn't say anything about being quickened or made alive before water baptism.
So you do believe in baptismal regeneration! Only those who are disciples of God qualify for baptism.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 4:1~"When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,"
You have to "make" disciples through preaching~for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The order is this: God regenerates sinners by his Spirit; discipleship comes through preaching, where those who have been born again have the power to hear, see, and believe and submit to the preaching of the word of God by the NEW MAN within them given freely by grace on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

It is not that difficult to understand, yet it does remove ALL OPPORTUNITY for man to glory and exposes man for who he is a wretched individual who is at enmity against the God of Heaven.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 04:06:05 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #45 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 06:51:07 »
Many ways this [corrupt the word of God] is done, the first and foremost one is with rejecting the most reliable translation since the printing press invention for the English speaking people of this world.....
That is what you believe, but there is absolutely no way to verify that.  And, moreover, most biblical scholars wouldn't agree with you.  It is a real shame that given all the study tools available to us today that you reject so many.

Quote from: RB
.....and truly the only one that was used for around three hundred years....
That is totally immaterial to the question of reliability of translation/interpretation.

Quote from: RB
the all-out attack upon the holy scriptures begun only a little over one hundred years ago with the RV to where we are now where there are hundred's to pick from that best goes along with one's beliefs/doctrines and lifestyle
First of all, it is not an attack upon the holy scriptures; and certainly not an all out attack.  It is, in all but a very few cases, an honest attempt to produce the best version of God's word.  And that is all the more reason why you ought to take advantage of what is available.  Most of the more well known translations agree on just about everything; it is only in some limited instances where they differ in significant and important ways. I use E-Sword for most of my study; it puts nearly all of the more common translations immediately at my finger tips.  And at the click of the mouse it produces a comparison of all of them for any selected verse.

Quote from: RB
I have said this a few times and will repeat it again~I have read behind hundreds of old divines from different nations and you would think we ALL HAD THE SAME TRANSLATION of the scriptures, but this is no longer the case~when Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and hundreds more gave their commentary on the scriptures it was a word for word quote as our English version!
You have got to be kidding.  Do you really think that Luther, who was German, or Calvin, who was French, or Zwingli, who was Swiss, used the KJV?  Seriously?  The KJV wasn't even around yet when they produced their work.  Even their work was not originally in English.  Most of them most likely used the Latin Vulgate, but still published in their own language.  Thus even their work comes to us in translations from their own languages into English. Literally nothing that they produced comes to us in English; not their work or their scriptural references.

Quote from: RB
Secondly, I care less how any man read these fourteen words, the truth here is clearly expressed: Sinners are justified FREELY by grace! If that is so, and according to God own testimony it IS SO, then no work can a sinner do to secure his justification ...., if so, then justification becomes work that must be performed, and can no longer be said we are justified freely by grace.
It is certainly true that we are saved by grace and not of work.  However, you are incorrect because you do not understand the biblical meaning of the word "work" in that statement. As I have pointed out so often  in the past, in the statement "not by works", Paul means not by works of law. It does not preclude doing something. There is works and there is works of law.  There is doing something and there is doing works of law.  They are not the same. You have to be blind to not see the importance God has placed upon obedience throughout the scriptures, importance before and after being saved. Believing is a work, but it is not a work of law. Christ, Himself said so (John 6:28-29), Paul essentially repeated that in so many ways.

Quote from: RB
Justification of a sinner whereby he/she is no longer under condemnation is 100% of grace without the deeds of the laws performed by the flesh.
That is true, but that does not preclude the sinner from having to do something to be justified.  God's placing a requirement to do something in order to obtain salvation does not negate salvation being 100% of grace.
 
Quote from: RB
We will add this one more thought~ if a sinner could be saved by his works, then he could glory, yet that will never happen before God. 
The truth is that if a sinner could were not a sinner and did the works of law perfectly he would be saved; more accurately he would not even need to be saved. The failure is not in God's law being able to save. If one could obey perfectly then he would not be a sinner.  And if that were the case, then most definitely he could boast of that.  The fundamental rule of God's law says, "Obey the law perfectly and receive the reward of eternal life; disobey even the least bit of the law and receive the punishment of eternal condemnation".  But as Paul has pointed out, "all have sinned".

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #46 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 07:27:34 »
4WD, it does not have to use those exact words, the context proves the doctrine and Peter knew they were by the very fact they were pricked in their hearts, which he knew those still in the flesh, or unregenerated without being IN THE SPIRIT could not be.
Again that is what you think, but that is not what the Bible says. That is just more of your eisegesis that is required by your adherence to the false doctrine of Total Depravity.
Quote
You being biased toward what you have been taught and have received will not allow you to see this truth that regeneration of the Spirit must precede any remorse for sins~to be pricked in one's heart is to be affected with sharp pain; to sting with remorse; it is a godly sorrow for one's sins....unregenerated sinners defend their sins and will not confess with godly sorrow and ask how can I make this right. Peter KNEW THIS TRUTH and so should all who read the scriptures seeking God's testimony on the doctrine they are seeking to understand.
I am sorry to say, but that is pure garbage.
Quote from: RB
Romans 3 taking from the Psalms of David should make this so clear to all whose only desire is to defend the scriptures
RB, there is not a single word in all of Romans 3 that even suggests that regeneration is necessary before one can believe. 
Quote from: RB
So you do believe in baptismal regeneration!
No, I do not believe in baptism regeneration.  I believe in regeneration by God.  I do believe that God regenerates one when he hears the gospel, repents, and is baptized as Peter declared. I believe Paul agreed with Peter about that.
Quote
You have to "make" disciples through preaching~for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The order is this: God regenerates sinners by his Spirit; discipleship comes through preaching, where those who have been born again have the power to hear, see, and believe and submit to the preaching of the word of God by the NEW MAN within them given freely by grace on the behalf of Jesus Christ.
Again, that is just garbage.  You are positing here that God is incapable of communicating with any human being that He has not first regenerated.  That is garbage. That makes a mockery of God.  First of all, it is patently clear here that you really do not even know what it means when you say "God regenerates sinners by his Spirit".

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #47 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 07:39:40 »
I will add this:  Whether or not you or I agree with Reformer in his opening post here and subsequent entries or whether either of us beleive that anything that he posted was correct, there certainly is truth in the title of his post; It is Calvinism vs Heaven's [God's] Oracles.  Calvinism does indeed stand squarely in opposition to God's truth expressed in His written word. It is as WS stated in his reply #5 above:
This is why I mostly stay out of the "Calvinism" discussions... it's hard to dialogue with others when there are flaws in the foundation on which they are building.
And there are indeed serious flaws in the foundation upon which Calvinism [and your version of soteriology] is built.

That foundation is, as I noted above, the fraudulent and deceitful perception that God is incapable of communicating with a human being unless He has first regenerated him.  Again, as I noted above, that makes a mockery of God.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 07:47:07 by 4WD »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #48 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 15:24:07 »
4WD:

    "And there are indeed serious flaws in the foundation upon which Calvinism [and your version of soteriology] is built.

    "That foundation is, as I noted above, the fraudulent and deceitful perception that God is incapable of communicating with a human being unless He has first regenerated him. Again, as I noted above, that makes a mockery of God."


    Well said. Right on target. It is almost impossible to follow or to get a clear picture of Calvinism's jumbled up belief system and inconsistencies. I have sincerely tried through the years to grasp their doctrinal puzzles and offer a brighter light, but to no avail.

Buff

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #49 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 15:44:20 »
You have got to be kidding.  Do you really think that Luther, who was German, or Calvin, who was French, or Zwingli, who was Swiss, used the KJV?  Seriously?  The KJV wasn't even around yet when they produced their work.  Even their work was not originally in English.  Most of them most likely used the Latin Vulgate, but still published in their own language.  Thus even their work comes to us in translations from their own languages into English. Literally nothing that they produced comes to us in English; not their work or their scriptural references..
I DID NOT say they did!  I said what they wrote in their tongue and as it was translated into English the scriptures they used were word for word IN OUR ENGLISH BIBLE OF 1611! I meant nothing more than that. Please slow down and read what I'm saying.

I'm going to rest for the remainder of the day, I'll consider your posts tomorrow.

Could you do me a favor? Kick Reformer out from hiding under your coattail  ::hiding:: and tell him to fight his own battles.   ::smile::  ::smacking::
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 15:48:46 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #50 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 17:53:02 »
I have sincerely tried through the years to grasp their doctrinal puzzles and offer a brighter light, but to no avail.
There is no puzzle.  The false doctrine of Total Depravity is the fundamental source of their soteriology.  Once that is accepted as truth, then all of the rest of the nonsense must follow, no matter what the Bible actually says about any of it.  And as I have said many times here, the doctrine of Total Depravity is truly an affront to God, Himself.  The very notion of original sin is bad enough, but Total Depravity is so much worse.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #51 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 17:58:56 »
I DID NOT say they did!  I said what they wrote in their tongue and as it was translated into English the scriptures they used were word for word IN OUR ENGLISH BIBLE OF 1611! I meant nothing more than that. Please slow down and read what I'm saying.
What? The translators used ENGLISH BIBLE OF 1611?  What in the world does that prove besides absolutely nothing? 

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #52 on: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 21:57:54 »
RB:

    I'm curious. In regards to the Version of the scriptures you use—and/or Versions—is it, or they, errorless? If it, or they, are not free of errors or mistranslations, on what level of imperfections do you consider it, or them, when compared to the more modern-day translations, such as the English Standard Version?

    Also, if I might inquire, are you familiar with Tyndale's Version, written in about 1526, long before the original KJV was written? When convenient, please give me your sentiments.

Buff
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 02, 2021 - 22:00:26 by Reformer »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #53 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 02:18:03 »
What? The translators used ENGLISH BIBLE OF 1611?  What in the world does that prove besides absolutely nothing?
::doh::  I DID NOT say that either! What the translators said in translating the works of those men of old the scriptures that the old divines used one would think they quoted word for word from our English bible, but actually, Luther's German bible or WHATEVER TEXT he quoted from ( Latin Vulgate, etc.) was NO DIFFERENT from our English translation of 1611~ the same with Calvin and others, I KNOW I have read much behind many of them. 

Do I need to give you an example?
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 02:32:47 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #54 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 03:42:48 »
I'm curious. In regards to the Version of the scriptures you use—and/or Versions—is it, or they, errorless?
It's going to be a short reply.  I trust and use only one version, and since I'm of the English tongue, I use the 1611 KJV which I believe is absolutely perfect, without errors! By faith, I would never question if I had a bible that had errors in it. I believe totally in Psalm 12 where God promised to protect his word from "THIS GENERATION", meaning, evil and wicked men!
Quote from: Holy David
Psalms 12~"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."
God has promised us that he will keep his word and preserve them from the hands of the wicked, and that FOR EVER, I believe in His promises, and you would be wise to do the same. I could spend so much time here, but I answered your question.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 21:57:54
English Standard Version?
ESV is a corrupt version of God's word~if you desire for me to prove it, then I will. There are certain scriptures concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ from KJV of 1611 or Tyndale's Version which can prove how the ESV corrupts the scriptures.

Okay, I'll give you a simple test to see if the ESV is God's word. Reformer do you know who killed Goliath? Well, you do if you read the KJV that tells us David killed Goliath with a sling~ but if read for your bible the ESV, then you do not. The ESV says Elhanan killed Goliath.
Quote
2nd Samuel 21:19~“And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam”.
Well now, who shall believe? ESV, or the KJV? I believe God's word over a so-called bible that cannot even get that simple truth right! God has nothing to do with the ESV, it's a corruption of God's word from start to finish~but there's so much more I could say~but you do not like to read long posts.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 21:57:54
Also, if I might inquire, are you familiar with Tyndale's Version, written in about 1526, long before the original KJV was written? When convenient, please give me your sentiments.
I know of it, yet have read very little of that wonderful work, and wonderful it was for that day and time. It is not easy to read, yet knowing what my 1611 said, makes it much easier for me. I basically have much of the NT memoized or close to it and almost all of the OT I'm very familiar with and know if it is there when I hear someone saying this or that is in the bible.

Tyndale's version is not much different, if any from the 1611 of what I have read, I could be wrong since I have not given myself over in reading all of it. But, I do know what he believe in, would you like to know? https://www.ligonier.org/blog/william-tyndale-gods-sovereign-election/  Look how he translated the most important verse in the NT on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Tyndale Bible 1526
Galatians 2:16~"knowe that a man is not iustified by ye dedes of the lowe: but by the fayth of Iesus Christ. And therfore we have beleved on Iesus Christ yt we myght be iustified by ye fayth of Christ and uot by the dedes of the lawe: because that by ye dedes of ye lawe no flesshe shalbe iustified. "
The exact same words that are in our KJV and teaches the same doctrine of free justification BY The FAITH OF Jesus Christ! Actually, John Calvin was not very good at bringing this doctrine to the forefront of his gospel message as he could have been, yet there were men here and there that did!

One more thought: Geneva Bible, also called Breeches Bible, English translation of the Bible published in Geneva (New Testament, 1557; Old Testament, 1560) by a colony of Protestant scholars in exile from England who worked under the general direction of Miles Coverdale and John Knox and under the influence of John Calvin. Is a well-accepted version before the KJV that I see no fault with.

These bibles have NO copyrights attached to them and were not done for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ but for the spreading of the truths of God.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 06:07:43 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #55 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 05:00:57 »
Somebody better prove something and it has to do with earlier manuscriots in some of the later versions earlier maniscriots closer to the time of the iriginal writing considered more accurste, as well they should, the reason for the differences in the KJV and the NKJV.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #56 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 06:45:15 »
It's going to be a short reply.  I trust and use only one version, and since I'm of the English tongue, I use the 1611 KJV which I believe is absolutely perfect, without errors! By faith, I would never question if I had a bible that had errors in it. I believe totally in Psalm 12 where God promised to protect his word from "THIS GENERATION", meaning, evil and wicked men! God has promised us that he will keep his word and preserve them from the hands of the wicked, and that FOR EVER, I believe in His promises, and you would be wise to do the same. I could spend so much time here, but I answered your question.
God did not even preserve, in the sense that you intend here, His word in the language in which it was written.  So clearly, the meaning you attach to Psalms 12 and what you think God meant by Psalms 12 is just not true.

RB, I know that you have studied diligently, but in this your studies are lacking.  There are four great fields of study of the NT; these are the critical, the historical, the exegetical and the theological. The critical study seeks to know and understand the text and the canon of the NT as a whole and the authorship, occasion, date, design, destination, etc. of each separate book; the historical study traces the course of the life of Christ and the origin and growth of the Church in the NT; the exegetical study seeks to ascertain the exact meaning of the statements of the writers in the contexts and that of the books they have written; and the theological study formulates the teaching of the separate books and of the authors of the NT into a self-consistent doctrinal system.

Now even though we can distinguish these four legitimate fields of study, we must not overlook the fact of the interrelation of these four fields of study.  We must always be constantly obliged to consider the contribution of each and every one of the four fields if we are to come to a correct understanding of any one of them. 

RB, while you have been diligent in the last of these four arenas of study, i.e., the theological, you have not given much thought to the first three fields, and have rejected outright some elements of the first three.  It shows in your statement that I quoted above.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #57 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 07:27:07 »
The original 1611 kjv had the Apocrypha.  Do you use those books?

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #58 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 07:48:15 »
The original 1611 kjv had the Apocrypha.  Do you use those books?
No~I do have a copy of the 1611 and yes it has Apocrypha books. They (the translators) made it very clear they were not part of the scriptures~and of cource it is easy to see they were not inspired.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #59 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 08:21:35 »
God did not even preserve, in the sense that you intend here, His word in the language in which it was written. 
David thought so, for he said
Quote
Psalms 19:7-11The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward."
Jesus thought so, or he would have never said what he did here:
Quote
Matthew 4:4~"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
The early Christians thought so, or they would have never tested Paul with the scriptures, to see what he was saying came form the mouth of God:
Quote
Acts 17:11~"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Paul thought so:
Quote
2nd Timothy 3:16~""All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Peter thought so:
Quote
2nd Peter 1:20,21~"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
There has never been a question about God gave to his people the scriptures and THEN preserved the same up UNTIL OUR DAY and will do so forever...... until the last 100 years or so. .
Quote from: 4WD
RB, I know that you have studied diligently, but in this your studies are lacking.  There are four great fields of study of the NT; these are the critical, the historical, the exegetical and the theological. The critical study seeks to know and understand the text and the canon of the NT as a whole and the authorship, occasion, date, design, destination, etc. of each separate book; the historical study traces the course of the life of Christ and the origin and growth of the Church in the NT; the exegetical study seeks to ascertain the exact meaning of the statements of the writers in the contexts and that of the books they have written; and the theological study formulates the teaching of the separate books and of the authors of the NT into a self-consistent doctrinal system.
Concerning the critical aspect of studying I will get back soon, I just received a phone call that will take me away for while. Later....RB
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 08:24:23 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #60 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 08:41:54 »
I repeat:
God did not even preserve, in the sense that you intend here, His word in the language in which it was written.  So clearly, the meaning you attach to Psalms 12 and what you think God meant by Psalms 12 is just not true.
None of the original manuscripts are available to us.  They were not preserved. What we have are many, many copies.  Clearly not all agree perfectly with each other, let alone with the original.  Which best represent the original is a huge field of study and one that continues even today.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #61 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 14:12:31 »
I repeat: None of the original manuscripts are available to us.  They were not preserved. What we have are many, many copies.  Clearly not all agree perfectly with each other, let alone with the original. 
I never said the original manuscripts are preserved for us, of course they are not, and God does not need them to preserved his word.

Brother, just reason with me for a moment~no one has ever seen any original manuscripts , from Moses to John, yet men of God could say~ALL scriptures are given by the inspiration of God, for God by his own power can THROUGH TRANSLATION of scribes preserved the very words that were first given to those holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost! Languages have and will change in spelling etc. but with God, he has kept his OWN TESTIMONY perfectly intact as when it was first given. Why do you think this is incredible and far-fetched, for with God all things are possible. Brother, we MUST believe this, for we are not at liberty to think the scriptures said this, or that or something else~when men take it upon themselves to write a bible after their own thoughts we have corruption, after corruptions, after corruption, etc. just as I pointed out above in the ESB.

God moved men around the world to gave bibles in the saint's mother tongue when the printing press first came available and they did so without COST or profit for themselves, a work solely out of love for the truth, but things have changed greatly in the last one hundred and fifty years with a flow of Babel bibles  https://letgodbetrue.com/bible-topics/index/scripture/the-bible-babel/
Quote
Which best represent the original is a huge field of study and one that continues even today.
Brother, for me it is not, I'll go with the generation that had nothing to gain, but a lot to lose, even their own life at the hands of RCC/EOC for then it took the power out of their hands to controls people by them using the Latin Vulgate, or, whatever they used the common man had no means to or could even read. The early translated bibles in English and Germany set a multitude FREE from the man of sin in Rome. Thank God for men like Luther and Tyndale. The plowboy in the field became wiser in the scriptures than the educated men in high places in the false churches in Mystery Babylon mainly the RCC/EOC~who thought they were wise~but they were and still are..... nothing more than wolves in sheep clothing~lying hirelings, chasing after little boys who minds have been rewired. 
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 14:20:52 by RB »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #62 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 16:03:01 »
RB:

    I'm scratching my head because I am totally amazed you believe what you're saying, namely, "It's going to be a short reply. I trust and use only one version, and since I'm of the English tongue, I use the 1611 KJV which I believe is absolutely perfect, without errors!"

    Number 3 of King James' instructions to his translators reads, "The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c." The Greek ekklesia has never, in all of it's history, correctly translated ekklesia "church."

    I have a copy of all of King James' instructions to his translators. Do you have a copy of them? If not, I will happily send you a copy. But a question before I leave. In Acts 12:4 of the KJV, "Easter" replaces "Passover," an all-out mistranslation, however you flip your coin. Check your Greek

    Will you now be up-and-above-board with us, or will you continue distort history in favor of King James' "bible"? Additionally, I find it almost impossible to dialogue with you on any biblical subject. No offence, my brother, but I envision you as an addicted "student" of King James and Calvin.

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 23:03:43 by Reformer »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #63 on: Tue Aug 03, 2021 - 18:12:55 »
I never said the original manuscripts are preserved for us, of course they are not, and God does not need them to preserved his word.
Nearly every English translation of the NT is derived from one of two basic Greek Texts.  God seems to have preserved both in one way or another.  It is an on-going topic of study concerning which of the two is the best and it is not clear that could ever be determined.  Some would like to say that the one constructed from the oldest manuscripts is the best; but we know, or least suspect, that is not necessarily true.  Maybe the best is some as yet undetermined combination of the two or perhaps a combination of those and still other sources.  For my part, I believe that what we have, be it from one or the other, is sufficiently accurate to convince of the truth of the gospel message, particularly if we make use of what information is available to us; and that includes the existing Greek versions.

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #64 on: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 03:54:27 »
God did not even preserve, in the sense that you intend here, His word in the language in which it was written.  So clearly, the meaning you attach to Psalms 12 and what you think God meant by Psalms 12 is just not true.

RB, I know that you have studied diligently, but in this your studies are lacking.  There are four great fields of study of the NT; these are the critical, the historical, the exegetical and the theological. The critical study seeks to know and understand the text and the canon of the NT as a whole and the authorship, occasion, date, design, destination, etc. of each separate book; the historical study traces the course of the life of Christ and the origin and growth of the Church in the NT; the exegetical study seeks to ascertain the exact meaning of the statements of the writers in the contexts and that of the books they have written; and the theological study formulates the teaching of the separate books and of the authors of the NT into a self-consistent doctrinal system.

Now even though we can distinguish these four legitimate fields of study, we must not overlook the fact of the interrelation of these four fields of study.  We must always be constantly obliged to consider the contribution of each and every one of the four fields if we are to come to a correct understanding of any one of them. 

RB,d  while you have been diligent in the last of these four arenas of study, i.e., the theological, you have not given much thought to the first three fields, and have rejected outright some elements of the first three.  It shows in your statement that I quoted above.
well I think you missed one. It’s also  understanding the scriptures by spiritual understanding. This never gets unlocked to one UNTIL they have a spiritual encounter with HIM. You can be thick as a 2x4 ..never understand this and that......but when you read the word, you get it when all the priests fell to the ground in the O.T. You understand now a small fraction to what it is like to be slain by the Spirit of God. You see if you have never felt the power of God come upon you like that.....you will explain it by the other 4 ways of understanding the Bible. It would be incomplete. We all have a piece of the pie.


Jesus would say stuff like this....the kingdom of heaven is like.

He spoke about the kingdom.why?

Because God is Spirit

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #65 on: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 03:57:51 »
 I use all the other ways to help me unlocking the spiritual kingdom so his kingdom comes . So I can be there and he can be here
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 04:08:25 by Bemark »

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #66 on: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 04:46:44 »


    Number 3 of King James' instructions to his translators reads, "The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c." The Greek ekklesia has never, in all of it's history, correctly translated ekklesia "church."

    I have a copy of all of King James' instructions to his translators. Do you have a copy of them? If not, I will happily send you a copy.
I would have to read up on this again for it has been several years since I have done so. No comment on something I do not know, and truly make very little difference as far as I can see, but will search this out again.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 16:03:01
But a question before I leave. In Acts 12:4 of the KJV, "Easter" replaces "Passover," an all-out mistranslation, however you flip your coin. Check your Greek
Not so fast, you may flip a coin but I would never do so, I will search out the matter as any wise person would do so.
Quote
Acts 12:1-4~"Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."
Reformer, sadly, many are amused or confused by the use of “Easter” in Acts 12:4, like yourself and others gloat about it, because they want to find fault with the King James Bible like yourself.

They may accuse the King James translators of a mistranslation, especially if they know the underlying Greek word is pascha, for Passover. They may conclude that Herod Agrippa I celebrated pagan Easter. They may twist scripture to make Passover and the feast of unleavened bread two different things.

“Easter” in Acts 12:4 is Passover, which is the feast of unleavened bread, clearly identified in the context (Acts 12:3). This is simple enough by reading the passage, but especially if it is known that Passover and unleavened bread are the same feast and/or that Easter in English and European languages can easily mean Passover.

In English and the languages of Europe … Easter = Passover … if not as the first or primary definition, it is as a secondary and significant definition. You are supposed to be a smart man, and you do not know this?

The English word “Easter” means the spring Christian festival to commemorate the resurrection of Christ in timing with the spring Jewish celebration of Passover.

Here is part of the entry for “Easter” in the Oxford English Dictionary, which is the standard of the English language:

Easter. 1. One of the great festivals of the Christian Church, commemorating the resurrection of Christ, and corresponding to the Jewish Passover, the name of which it bears in most of the European languages. 2. The Jewish Passover.

When quoting a source for an example of definition 2, the OED quoted Acts 12:4 in the King James Bible.

The Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread are synonyms in the Bible unless context distinguishes the Passover lamb or supper from the week-long celebration.

Ezekiel 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

There are other similar verses showing the names as synonyms for the same feast.

These verses show that the Passover and feast of unleavened bread are synonyms, when there is no context limiting either one of them, as is the case in Acts 12:3-4.

It is clear in Acts 12:3-4 by reading the verses together that “days of unleavened bread” (12:3) is the same as “Easter” (12:4). There is no reason to seek any other explanation, especially once the facts listed above about English usage of “Easter” and the Bible use of Passover terms as synonyms are understood.

The King James Version is perfectly accurate and consistent for readers that will check the context, confirm Bible use of terms, and check the meaning of the English word “Easter.”

Checking the underlying Greek word pascha is further confirmation to some, but provides no additional proof for those trusting the English words of the KJV.

It should be obvious that Herod was not waiting for the Jews to finish the pagan celebration of Astarte’s Day or the celebration of the Christian Easter Sunday.

He was waiting for the seven-day feast of Passover to end so that his murder of Peter would not draw as much political or social opposition from the Jews, whom he sought to further please after having killed James.

Let all amusement or confusion about Acts 12:4 end.

Let all criticism of the English King James Bible and its translator's end.

Let all wresting of scripture to make Passover and the feast of unleavened bread separate things end.

A child of God may trust the King James Version perfectly~there are no other options as trustworthy~God has stamped the KJV with His approval by 400+ years of spiritual fruit and all the internal and external measures of His divine revelation.
Quote from: Reformer Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 16:03:01
Will you now be up-and-above-board with us, or will you continue distort history in favor of King James' "bible"?
Is this up-and-above-board? This is more than you bargain for, but, you deserve it as much as any person here. Do you have something else for me to address?
Quote from: Reformer Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 16:03:01
but I envision you as an addicted "student" of King James and Calvin.
I'm addicted to defending God's truth in any form that may come my way. I say very little about the KJV only when I'm forced to defend it do I speak up.

No student of Calvin, for he believed in some doctrines I do not hold to, but I DO respect him on many issues, which he taught, yet the same doctrines were taught by men way before Calvin! He was a brilliant person which is seen in his writings as early as 26 years of age at which time he did his greatest work.... Institutes of the Christian Religion.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 04:56:06 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #67 on: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 07:09:10 »
The book of Acts is dated about 61-62 AD.  There was no such thing as Easter in 61-62 AD.  Even today they are not the same "festival" and do not, in any sense whatsoever, celebrate the same event.  The KJV screwed up; it is wrong.  Your reverence for the KJV is nothing more that a personal choice.  There is no Godly basis for your views that it is superior in any way, shape for form to some other English versions.  It is all in your head. And some of that is not good; it leads you astray.  You failed attempt to defend the KJV is surely evidence of that.

Quote from: RB
In English and the languages of Europe … Easter = Passover … if not as the first or primary definition, it is as a secondary and significant definition. You are supposed to be a smart man, and you do not know this?
That is simply not true.  Easter is a celebration of the risen Savior, Jesus Christ.  Passover, even today among both Christians and Jews, is the celebration of freeing of the Hebrews from slavery under Egypt.  I believe it was not happenstance that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross occurred in the Passover week; therefore Christ died, was buried and rose again in that week; but in no way does that make Jesus' death, burial and resurrection the same thing as God's bringing the Hebrews out of slavery under Egypt.

In English and the languages of Europe … Easter IS NOT Passover ! !

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #68 on: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 14:26:43 »

4WD:

    "The book of Acts is dated about 61-62 AD. There was no such thing as Easter in 61-62 AD.  Even today they are not the same 'festival' and do not, in any sense whatsoever, celebrate the same event. The KJV screwed up; it is wrong.  Your reverence for the KJV is nothing more that a personal choice.  There is no Godly basis for your views that it is superior in any way, shape for form to some other English versions.  It is all in your head. And some of that is not good; it leads you astray. Your failed attempt to defend the KJV is surely evidence of that."
______

    Amen, 4WD! Brother RB can twist, turn, distort, change, disfigure, or misshape Acts 12:4 "until his cows come home," but he will not be successful in proving the KJV is perfect and contains no errors. He's my brother, but I'm beginning to doubt his sincerity.

    I'll repeat again, He is addicted to King James and Calvin. And that addiction prevents him from seeing and acknowledging reality allied to King James and his KJV.

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Calvinism vs. Heaven's Oracles #1
« Reply #69 on: Wed Aug 04, 2021 - 17:49:03 »
Amen, 4WD! Brother RB can twist, turn, distort, change, disfigure, or misshape Acts 12:4 "until his cows come home," but he will not be successful in proving the KJV is perfect and contains no errors. He's my brother, but I'm beginning to doubt his sincerity.
Oh Reformer, please do not doubt his sincerity.  He is sincere in all of it, perhaps even more so than many of the rest of us.  However, he is sincere in his allegiance to the KJV; and it is not because he has any real evidence of its superiority; rather it is because it is about the only English version that will allow him to hold onto his faulty soteriology.