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Author Topic: Can a Christian lose salvation?  (Read 9993 times)

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larry2

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 12:58:14 »

ONCE we do our first sin,after leaving the baptismal waters, guess what?!...we now lost that gift. meaning we are once again, a sinner. this is why we,(any who claim to follow Jesus and serve his Father Jehovah GOD),... ask daily for forgiveness.

(1).Heb.10:26,27- For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



Wow you are good. As soon as you lose your gift of eternal life, are you lost again? Do you receive Jesus again and get baptized again?

What of willful sin? Ever had even one little white lie? Ever purposefully disobeyed a law of the land that you were told to obey? And it goes on and on if you want it to; how about selling all you have and giving to the poor, loving your neighbor as yourself, one coveting thought, etc.; you really don't think you accidentally sin do you? or that the devil made you do it?

Do you realize that for what you consider willful sin cannot be again repented of? Hebrews 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. It sounds as if you are in deep trouble without hope.

No, I do not believe that. Like most law keepers I suppose your attempts fall 100% short of the glory of God, but we have a gracious Savior that keeps us, and He will lose none of us who He has been given.

Thank God and may He continue to keep us in spite of ourselves in Jesus' name.
 

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 12:58:14 »

JMT

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 13:00:15 »
"Can a Christian lose salvation?"

though many wants to believe .."once saved,always saved", that's a false teaching,in a sense. meaning Jesus dead was a gift for ALL humans,who decides to follow his Teachings,and do HIS Father's WILL,(Matt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven). when we get baptized,we are blessed with the gift of everlasting life, because of Jesus death. at that point of coming out of the water,we are sinned-free. so at that point,we have the gift of salvation.

NOW!... here's what many refuse to believe,simply because they're NOT TRUELY living the way Jesus taught us to live, and refuse to serve his Father. ONCE we do our first sin,after leaving the baptismal waters, guess what?!...we now lost that gift.

If we have lost it, why does the word tell us that Jesus is our advocate on high when we sin?  
Why does He give us parables about going to find the sheep that wandered away?
Or the Father waiting for his son to return to him?
God promises that He holds us in His righteous right hand and NOTHING can snatch us from His grasp.  ::smile:: Not even our very own selves.

(1).Heb.10:26,27- For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(many Christians don’t realized from about 10 minutes after coming out of the baptismal water, we might have sin,even if it was a small lie. Be-it willfully or unknowingly. Therefore we made void,what was meant to be.in other words…we’re NOT SAVED,now standing in judgement).

So the shed blood of Jesus wasn't that powerful then?  If all it takes to void what He did on the cross is us goofing up and sinning...man, that's depressing!

(2).1John :9 ,10-If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
color]

AMEN!  He forgives us because He knows us. loves us and calls us His own!

Hebrews 10:11-18
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

 16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
   after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
   and I will write them on their minds.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 13:00:15 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 17:08:33 »
"Can a Christian lose salvation?"

though many wants to believe .."once saved,always saved", that's a false teaching,in a sense. meaning Jesus dead was a gift for ALL humans,who decides to follow his Teachings,and do HIS Father's WILL,(Matt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven). when we get baptized,we are blessed with the gift of everlasting life, because of Jesus death. at that point of coming out of the water,we are sinned-free. so at that point,we have the gift of salvation.

NOW!... here's what many refuse to believe,simply because they're NOT TRUELY living the way Jesus taught us to live, and refuse to serve his Father. ONCE we do our first sin,after leaving the baptismal waters, guess what?!...we now lost that gift. meaning we are once again, a sinner. this is why we,(any who claim to follow Jesus and serve his Father Jehovah GOD),... ask daily for forgiveness.

(1).Heb.10:26,27- For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(many Christians don’t realized from about 10 minutes after coming out of the baptismal water, we might have sin,even if it was a small lie. Be-it willfully or unknowingly. Therefore we made void,what was meant to be.in other words…we’re NOT SAVED,now standing in judgement).

(2).1John :9 ,10-If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(3).1John 1:7-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.  (pray to God for forgiveness of our sins, then they are wiped clean). If not, we’re not forgiven. We also need to make sure we’re walking in God’s way).

being baptized doesn't mean we can sin all we want,then repent on deaths bed. as many so WRONGLY believe and teach. that's playing God for a fool,it's like saying look God i called myself a christian. yet i was totally part of the word,in which you told me NOT to be. now i repent because i think i'm going to die,and you have to accept my repentance. WRONG!... GOD ISN'T TO BE PLAYED WITH,(Gal.6:7 -Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap).

we must do our best to follow Jesus teachings,and serve his Father,UP to the end of our days. in order for that gift of salvation  to be enforced,(Matt.24:13 -But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved). peace


Wow.  Pretty hard to have "joy unspeakable and full of glory" with that type of "salvation"!!!  If we become "unsaved" every time we sin we're ALL in a lot of trouble!!    No---the Bible doesn't teach that jojo50.  When we are born-again we are saved eternally.  ALL OF OUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN FOREVER.  And why?  Because Jesus said IT IS FINISHED when he had paid for every last sin we could ever commit.  The person who receives Christ and is born-again is eternally forgiven.  ::smile::

We confess our sins to remain in fellowship with the Lord.  If we don't confess our sins we begin to turn away from the Lord, and the love we have for the Lord will go cold.  But we do not lose our salvation as a result.  We do not become "un-born-again"---that is impossible.  We lose fellowship with God. When we confess our sins we are cleansed, and we remain close to our Father in a daily walk.

To teach that one becomes lost when they sin is not scriptural at all.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 17:08:33 »

Offline candy

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 17:20:03 »
Amen fish. ::clappingoverhead::

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 17:20:03 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 19:34:39 »
"Can a Christian lose salvation?"

though many wants to believe .."once saved,always saved", that's a false teaching,in a sense. meaning Jesus dead was a gift for ALL humans,who decides to follow his Teachings,and do HIS Father's WILL,(Matt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven). when we get baptized,we are blessed with the gift of everlasting life, because of Jesus death. at that point of coming out of the water,we are sinned-free. so at that point,we have the gift of salvation.

NOW!... here's what many refuse to believe,simply because they're NOT TRUELY living the way Jesus taught us to live, and refuse to serve his Father. ONCE we do our first sin,after leaving the baptismal waters, guess what?!...we now lost that gift. meaning we are once again, a sinner. this is why we,(any who claim to follow Jesus and serve his Father Jehovah GOD),... ask daily for forgiveness.

(1).Heb.10:26,27- For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(many Christians don’t realized from about 10 minutes after coming out of the baptismal water, we might have sin,even if it was a small lie. Be-it willfully or unknowingly. Therefore we made void,what was meant to be.in other words…we’re NOT SAVED,now standing in judgement).

(2).1John :9 ,10-If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(3).1John 1:7-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.  (pray to God for forgiveness of our sins, then they are wiped clean). If not, we’re not forgiven. We also need to make sure we’re walking in God’s way).

being baptized doesn't mean we can sin all we want,then repent on deaths bed. as many so WRONGLY believe and teach. that's playing God for a fool,it's like saying look God i called myself a christian. yet i was totally part of the word,in which you told me NOT to be. now i repent because i think i'm going to die,and you have to accept my repentance. WRONG!... GOD ISN'T TO BE PLAYED WITH,(Gal.6:7 -Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap).

we must do our best to follow Jesus teachings,and serve his Father,UP to the end of our days. in order for that gift of salvation  to be enforced,(Matt.24:13 -But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved). peace


Wow.  Pretty hard to have "joy unspeakable and full of glory" with that type of "salvation"!!!  If we become "unsaved" every time we sin we're ALL in a lot of trouble!!    No---the Bible doesn't teach that jojo50.  When we are born-again we are saved eternally.  ALL OF OUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN FOREVER.  And why?  Because Jesus said IT IS FINISHED when he had paid for every last sin we could ever commit.  The person who receives Christ and is born-again is eternally forgiven.  ::smile::

We confess our sins to remain in fellowship with the Lord.  If we don't confess our sins we begin to turn away from the Lord, and the love we have for the Lord will go cold.  But we do not lose our salvation as a result.  We do not become "un-born-again"---that is impossible.  We lose fellowship with God. When we confess our sins we are cleansed, and we remain close to our Father in a daily walk.

To teach that one becomes lost when they sin is not scriptural at all.

Righto, fishy baby.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 19:34:39 »



Offline INJ

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 20:51:02 »
A christian can shipwreck their faith and lose their salvation. But they Lord knows who are his and they will not be taken from his hand.

Shipwrecked doesn't mean lost.

God doesn't renege. We do. Once He moves into his temple ---the spirit of a man---He doesn't move out.

What is a shipwreck? If you were in one you would certainly suffer lose, you wouldn't get to where you were going. You might even die. The dichotomy of scripture it the responsibility of man and the grace of God working together in unity.  It cannot be earned but you need to choose it. You cannot make it happen, but you should seek it. You cannot save yourself but can win others. You do not start it or finish salvation but you working it out in due course. He never leaves nor forsakes you but if you do not acknowledge him before men he will not acknowledge you before his father. He sends his Holy Spirit to comfort, convict, teach and exhort but if anyone does not recognise his spirit there is a danger of blaspheming the spirit, from where there is no forgiveness.

We are seated with Christ in heavenly places and we are co-heirs with him. We are co-workers and are to judge all things yet be as innocent as lambs.

No-one really knows who is saved, which is my point. We can get an idea from the fruit, and a witness in our spirit. But sometimes we just do not know. God allows the wheat to grow with the tares. I never want to be in a position to tell someone they can continue sinning because they are a Christian and the Lord loves them if in doing so I condemn them to hell. Anyone who is born of God does not continue sinning. The Holy Spirit teaches them to say no to ungodliness with great patience.

But in all things there is balance. Because God is a God of order.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 21:01:12 by INJ »

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 20:51:02 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #41 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 20:57:58 »
I praise my Saviour---a Saviour saves----that when I was shipwrecked and on the rocks, spiritually, He sent me the Holy Spirit to speak to me words of truth and reconciliation.

That Saviour is the Captain of the ship---He threw me a LIFESAVER. He will never allow anyone or anything to pluck me out of His hand, praise God!


John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

Offline INJ

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #42 on: Mon Jul 25, 2011 - 21:03:56 »
I praise my Saviour---a Saviour saves----that when I was shipwrecked and on the rocks, spiritually, He sent me the Holy Spirit to speak to me words of truth and reconciliation.

That Saviour is the Captain of the ship---He threw me a LIFESAVER. He will never allow anyone or anything to pluck me out of His hand, praise God!


John 10:28-29
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.


Amen. Let us all be sure to follow the Lord.

His mercy endures forever. I never set aside the grace of God. Thank God for Jesus

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 10:32:20 »
The acronym OSAS should really stand for "Once a Son, Always a Son"

This is such a tattered, dog-eared topic of discussion that I hesitate to add to the stack of comments.   Until now, though, I haven't yet encountered anyone bringing up the following simple text as proof of this point before.  I am going to trust Christ's words themselves on this matter.   He presented this topic in a basic metaphor to the Samaritan woman at Jacob's fountain.  His words to her in John 4:13 (Interlinear) were as follows:

"...Everyone that drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him in no wise shall thirst for ever, but the water which I will give to him shall become in him a fountain (pege) of water springing up into life eternal."

This fountain (pege) is not just an ordinary well (phrear), a dug pit which fills up with water.  A spring, or a fountain of living water is another thing altogether.  Once Christ gives the gift of "living water" (John 4:10), the recipient is given eternal life in Christ which becomes an inexhaustible source of life within the person.  Springs do not ever stop producing water, just as the source of life given to a child of God never ceases.  To say that one can lose their status as a child of God (or walk away from it) would be to rip out Christ's metaphoric message from the John 10:12 context entirely.

We are not given a bucket of water that can be dumped when we once become a child of God - we are given an unending spring of living water within.  As John 7:38 also says, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."   Can we "quench the Spirit" of God so that the flow of living water is slowed down?  Surely.  One can throw all kinds of junk into a spring to muddy the water, but the source of the pure, underground fountain is never changed. 

Our adoption as sons of God is a covenant sealed by the unchanging Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).  Sheep never turn into goats.  Wheat never turns into tares.  Sons never turn into bastards, even when these same sons need scourging or reproof.   While sitting in the pigpen, the Prodigal Son was still a son, and still spoke of having a Father, even though the fellowship between them had been broken off by his behavior.

This is a doctrine that the child of God can truly REST upon.  ("Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you REST...")  That was the very purpose behind the picture of the Sabbath rest imposed on the children of Israel from ancient times.  Why would God be so adamant that not a single act of labor be done on that day?  It was to  provide a picture for all time and all ages that the child of God has not done, and cannot do a single work to earn or to preserve their status as a child of God.  This is why we have that one lone example of the man picking up sticks on the Sabbath that received the death penalty for it.  You can't so much as pick up a stick to earn your way into the family of God, or to preserve your standing in the family.  It's a God thing totally.  We cannot take credit for the implanted spring within us, and we cannot get rid of this fountain once it is imparted.


 

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 10:32:20 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #44 on: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 11:13:22 »
3 Resurrrections---

I am sure you will receive posts attempting to repudiate your thoughts. I wanted to share one of my favorite parts of "Pilgrim's Progress" by
John Bunyan. In his famous book this small part appears under the heading "The Fire Against the Wall":


Then I saw in my dream, that the Interpreter took Christian by the hand, and led him into a place where was a Fire burning against the wall, and one standing by it, always casting much water upon it, to quench it; yet did the Fire burn higher and hotter.

Then said Christian, What means this?

The Interpreter answered, This Fire is the Work of Grace that is wrought in the heart; he that casts water upon it, to extinguish and put it out, is the Devil: But in that you see the Fire notwithstanding burn higher and hotter, you will also see the reason of that. So he had him about to the backside of the wall, where he saw a Man with a Vessel of Oil in his hand, of which, he did also continually cast (but secretly) into the Fire.

Then said Christian, What means this?

The Interpreter answered, This is Christ, who continually with the Oil of His Grace maintains the work already begun in the heart: By the means of which, notwithstanding what the Devil can do, the souls of His people prove gracious still. And in that you saw, that the Man stood behind the wall to maintain the Fire; this is to teach you, That it is hard for the Tempted to see how this Work of Grace is maintained in the soul.


I believe this to be absolutely true. Once a work of Grace has started in the soul through the GIFT of salvation and eternal life, it cannot be stopped. It is a continuous flowing of living water from the soul (as John 4 states, and as you have pointed out). There are those on this board who will insist that eternal life must be maintained by US.  But this teaching is false----eternal life is maintained in us by GOD HIMSELF.  Once we have been born-again through his Will, we are children of God forever.

Thank you for your post!   And God bless you!   ::smile::

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 15:13:58 »
fish153 -  Thank you, I appreciate your voice of agreement on this.  There will always be some of God's children with a restless temperament who have difficulty relaxing in their relationship with their Savior.  I have been there myself before as a very young Christian, and the uncertainty wondering if I had done enough is a tormenting state of mind that I well remember.  A rough comparison might be similar to a wife who is obsessed with cleaning her house to prove that she loves her husband, when he would really prefer time in fellowship with her instead of her frenzied efforts sanitizing what he already had the maid service take care of.

The scriptures put so much emphasis on the REST we have in Christ.  For just one example, Isaiah 11:10 prophesied that "...in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and His rest shall be glorious."  If one's doctrinal position does not promote this glorious state of rest in Christ and the peace with God which it causes, how will our faith appear any different from the prophets of Baal  who spent the entire day working themselves into a lather to get a response from their god?

It's not without reason that Isaiah 54:13 promised that "great shall be the peace of thy children."  This promise of peace was pronounced fulfilled in Romans 5:1.  "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." 

We are not foster children who risk being shuttled to another family if we offend the foster parents.  Scripture is very clear on who and what our salvation's security is dependent.  Romans 5:10, "For if, while we were enemies, (and weren't capable of performing any action pleasing to God) we were reconciled to God through the DEATH of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved (finally and completely in the resurrection) BY HIS LIFE" (not by our life and how well we perform as Christian sons and daughters).

 

Offline justbyfaith

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 18:23:08 »
In John 10:28 there is a three-fold proclamation, for Jesus' sheep, of eternal security in the Lord:

And I give unto them 1) eternal life, and they 2) shall never perish, 3) neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So then,

1) the life that is given is eternal or everlasting--that means it will last for ever.

2) the person who has eternal life will never perish--never is a very strong word, and I leave it to the reader to understand what it means that I, as one of God's sheep, will never perish.

3) no one will pluck me out of Jesus' hand.  This is reinforced by John 10:29-30, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able ot pluck them out of my Father's hand.  I and my Father are one.

Here it is not only true that no one will pluck me out of Jesus' hand, it is also true that Jesus' hand is also the hand of the Omipotent Father, and no one is able to pluck me out of His hand.

To which the opponent of this sound doctrine of eternal security will say,

"Yes, but it is possible for one of Jesus' sheep to walk away from Him, and if they do so they are lost.

I reply that we ought to consider this as a possibility, but that in considering this possibility it ought to create in us the fear of the Lord.

And in Jeremiah 32:39-40 it is written, And I will give them one heart, and one way, 1) that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:  And 2) I will make an everlasting covenant with them, 3) that I wil not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will 4) put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Now compare #'s 1 and 4.  God will give to the true believers one heart, and one way, so that they might fear the Lord for ever, and through that fear they shall not depart from Him.  Therefore it is an eternal fear of the Lord by which the servants of the Lord will never volitionally leave the palm of His hand for ever.

#'s 2 and 3 also have a bearing on eternal security, but numbers 1 and 4 help us to understand something that we may not find in John 10:28-30, and that is that the true believer will never volitionally leave the service of God and being in the palm of HIs hand; and we know also from John 10:28-30 that no one can pluck the same person out of the Father's hand.

How then can one lose their salvation?  No outside force can take us out of salvation; the fear of the Lord means that we will never leave; is it possible that God would simply thrust us out?

No; for it is written (John 6:37) that Jesus said, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 23:47:47 by justbyfaith »

Offline fish153

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #47 on: Thu Jan 19, 2017 - 23:41:06 »
3 Resurrections, justbyfaith---

Thank you so very much! The joy we as Christians have (or should have) is due to wonderful assurance. And the Lord desires we have that assurance (we see this clearly as we read 1 John) and rejoice greatly in Him.

We are His "dear Children"(Eph. 5:1) and he loves us with an everlasting love!

God bless you both for your wonderful comments!   ::smile::

Offline Glorious

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #48 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 01:42:32 »
John 10:28 is not a supporting scripture for "eternal security" that, according to some folks, translates as a believer's inability to lose salvation.

John 10:27-29 KJV declares the six steps/levels (from flesh on earth, passing through the world, unto Christ in Heaven) journey of a believer who receives the witness of Jesus Christ and is raised up to conform to the image of Christ who is the Son of God:
  • My sheep hear my voice,
    Hearing the voice (witness of) Jesus Christ brings about the gift of faith into the believer's flesh. 

  • and I know them, and they follow me:
    In being known by Jesus Christ are truth and grace given to the flesh and blood believer. The believer now becomes a disciple (disciplined follower) and candidate to be raised into eternal life that is at the foundation of the world.

  • And I give unto them eternal life;
    Death of the soul is the absence of eternal life in the soul of a believer who is a candidate to be raised from the foundation of the world into everlasting life  that is at the end of the world.

  • and they shall never perish,
    Perishing (destruction) of the soul is the absence of everlasting life in the soul of a believer who is a candidate to be raised from the end of the world into the kingdom ofind God. The kingdom is throne and right hand of the Christ in Heaven.

  • neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    No man can pluck out a spiritual believer from the kingdom (righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost) that is the right hand of the Christ in Heaven.

  • My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    The Word (the Christ, Son) of God is the Father's right hand. No man can pluck away the pure and spiritual believer who is already in and conformed to the image of Christ.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 03:35:11 by Glorious »

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #49 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 05:32:13 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false. 

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #50 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 06:13:20 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.
You are a thorn in the flesh of believers of free grace. Your gospel exalts the pride of man, and give him an occasion to glory in something that he does not possess~ namely a free will. Once loved, ALWAYS LOVED, is the testimony of God himself to his sheep.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #51 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 06:40:33 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.

Hard nosed Calvinism does not agree with OSAS exactly.  Calvinism teaches that the saints will endure to the end and finish the race aka Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints.  OSAS does not.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #52 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 06:43:34 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.
You are a thorn in the flesh of believers of free grace. Your gospel exalts the pride of man, and give him an occasion to glory in something that he does not possess~ namely a free will. Once loved, ALWAYS LOVED, is the testimony of God himself to his sheep.
No, RB, my gospel exalts the grace of God who created mankind giving him a free will.  As I noted, the rejection of free will places mankind in a strict puppet-puppeteer relationship with God.   I once had a pet Capuchin monkey, named Linus. The non-human animal kingdom operates on a mostly instilled instinct. But even Linus exhibited a far greater free will to choose than you will acknowledge for mankind.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #53 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 06:56:09 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.

Hard nosed Calvinism does not agree with OSAS exactly.  Calvinism teaches that the saints will endure to the end and finish the race aka Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints.  OSAS does not.

Yes, strictly speaking you are correct.  Preservation of the saints says that God will work through the person so that the person will persevere throughout his life and not lose his salvation.  OSAS basically says that the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved.  The difference is moot in terms of whether the Christian can lose salvation.  But perhaps I should have said that I think OSAS derives ultimately from Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #54 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 07:13:06 »
Quote
The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.

Of what use is a believer's free will if/as the exercise of that free will does not please God?

Let's dump all aspects our free will that can neither never please God nor add a single value to our lives in this world and in the world to come.

The sooner we realized that we are wired to do only the will of God, the better it shall be for us even as the Lord taught us to pray in Matthew 6:10 KJV:
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Indeed, our free will is nothing before God. But, God's will that abides forever is given to replace all the will (desires) of man. Whosoever is once saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, but fails to do the will of God, risks falling away and frustrates the grace of Jesus Christ.

As a matter of absolute superiority and preference, Jesus spoke of the Father's will in Matthew 26:39 KJV:
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Again, Jesus said in John 4:34 KJV:
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 07:17:23 by Glorious »

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #55 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 07:31:47 »
I didn't understand much of that.  You suggested that we are wired to do only the will of God; but then you said,"Whosoever is once saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, but fails to do the will of God, risks falling away and frustrates the grace of Jesus Christ."

How can we be wired to do only the will of God but fail to do the will of God?

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #56 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 07:49:07 »
Answer to OP yes. ::eatingpopcorn:

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #57 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 08:06:41 »
4WD asked:
Quote
How can we be wired to do only the will of God but fail to do the will of God?

By "we" I meant Christians (disciples of Christ). We are wired (as in formed or prepared) to do God's will only.

But, some Christians do get enticed and ensnared by other things. In being enticed and ensnared, they fall short of doing the will  of God.

Doing the will of God is the summary of all works and labour we must do on earth and in the heavens in order to fulfill the law of Christ/God.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #58 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 09:28:06 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.

Hard nosed Calvinism does not agree with OSAS exactly.  Calvinism teaches that the saints will endure to the end and finish the race aka Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints.  OSAS does not.

Yes, strictly speaking you are correct.  Preservation of the saints says that God will work through the person so that the person will persevere throughout his life and not lose his salvation.  OSAS basically says that the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved.  The difference is moot in terms of whether the Christian can lose salvation.  But perhaps I should have said that I think OSAS derives ultimately from Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever.

It may be a derivation, but deviation does not reflect poorly on Calvinism.  Some of Mormon theology derives from the RM, that does mean the RM is to blame.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #59 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 09:47:18 »
Once Saved Always Saved is hard-nosed Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever you wish to call it.  The doctrine demands the complete rejection of free will.  It demands the puppet-puppeteer relationship between man and God. It demands strict determinism at every level of life here on earth.  The individual is what he is without any influence on input of the individual himself for anything, not just salvation.  The very fact that God has given us the Scriptures, His written word, proves that OSAS is false.

Hard nosed Calvinism does not agree with OSAS exactly.  Calvinism teaches that the saints will endure to the end and finish the race aka Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints.  OSAS does not.

Yes, strictly speaking you are correct.  Preservation of the saints says that God will work through the person so that the person will persevere throughout his life and not lose his salvation.  OSAS basically says that the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved.  The difference is moot in terms of whether the Christian can lose salvation.  But perhaps I should have said that I think OSAS derives ultimately from Calvinism, Reformed Theology or whatever.

Calvinism reasons that true faith produces true Christians.
Endurance in faith is a property of a true Christian. Those who do not endure are not true Christians.

The logic of this argument comes from scripture 1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

There are only two kinds of people. True Christians or non-Christians. God does not recognize half-Christians.
So can a true Christian lose salvation? Absolutely not!
Would a Christian lose his faith, then he may have been a half-Christian or non-Christian...but neither can be saved.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 09:54:18 by AVZ »

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #60 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 09:52:19 »
Has anyone posting here ever lost theirs?  If so, how did you know it was lost?


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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #61 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 10:01:28 »
OSAS basically says that the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved. 

That is not what OSAS says.
OSAS says "Once saved, always saved" full stop.

The rest of the sentence "the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved." is not doctrine of OSAS.
You added it.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #62 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 10:09:34 »
Has anyone posting here ever lost theirs?  If so, how did you know it was lost?

No, but know of at least one person that I am quite positive lost his.  Of course he can get that back if he so chooses. I doubt that he will but I can't be sure of that.  What makes me think that? Jesus said, " You shall be known by their fruits"  I knew him before and I have known him since.  But it is in the final analysis up to God isn't it?

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #63 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 10:13:06 »
OSAS basically says that the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved. 

That is not what OSAS says.
OSAS says "Once saved, always saved" full stop.

The rest of the sentence "the Christian will not lose salvation no matter what he does, since what he does has no bearing whatsoever on becoming saved or staying saved." is not doctrine of OSAS.
You added it.

Well since you cannot find your definition stated in the Bible, who is to say what the doctrine of OSAS is?  I think if you do a search, you are likely to find a lot of statements about OSAS that line up quite well with what I stated.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #64 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 10:31:31 »
Has anyone posting here ever lost theirs?  If so, how did you know it was lost?

No, but know of at least one person that I am quite positive lost his.  Of course he can get that back if he so chooses. I doubt that he will but I can't be sure of that.  What makes me think that? Jesus said, " You shall be known by their fruits"  I knew him before and I have known him since.  But it is in the final analysis up to God isn't it?

So, your salvation is secure, but you know of one man whose was not.  How do you know that, for certain?

See...there are a LOT of people I know that tell me all the time who is and who is not a Christian.  The measuring stick is *always* their own conviction, and if someone doesn't live up to *their* personal standards, they are lost, or have lost their salvation.

I have been judged as such a one.  I am shunned and rejected because we watch Disney animated movies, or because my son has a tattoo (as a married adult, living on his own) or my (adult) daughter got her nose pierced; can you imagine what they would say if I announced that one of my children is sincerely struggling with a REAL sin issue?!  ::eek:: ::hiding:: I am judged all the time by the "righteous" among us; but they do not know a thing about my heart, or my standing and relationship with God!

God wants relationship with us...relationships are often messy, ugly, imperfect things. They live, the grow, they mature...and they stay faithful when the going gets tough, and others think we bear rotten fruit. 

He has never left me, even at my lowest, when Satan's lies were all I could believe, and I was without much hope...He never left me when I couldn't produce beautiful perfect fruit.  He was patient, continued to love me, challenge me, teach me...He has never lost me once.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #65 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 11:05:41 »
4WD said----

>>>Of course he can get that back if he so chooses.<<<

That is completely false.  Read John 1:12----we are not "born-again" through our own power or decision----it is "of God"----it is His will and
decision.  One cannot "choose" to be born-again.  One cannot become a Child of God and then become "unborn" again.  We are placed into the
Family of God by God Himself.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #66 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 11:47:13 »
Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer: Before this question is answered, the term “Christian


Since the term "salvation" properly understood is a one time, historical event in the life of a person - just as being born physically is also - the answer is no. Even when a person dies, the fact that he was born can never become a lie.

However, the question ignores the fact that eternal life and salvation are two different things entirely, right down to their individual natures (the fact that some NT writers use the terms as metonyms for one another does NOT change the fact of their Scriptural definitions or natures).

A person can cease to walk with God in covenant relationship, since eternal life is a state of being always in the now, and when they do that they no longer have eternal life because it is a covenant gift accorded only to those who are in Christ.

When one ceases to remain in Christ, he no longer has eternal life. That is a Scriptural fact...

I John 5:11-12
11   And this is the testimony, that God gives us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12   Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

There is only one way to have the Son...

I John 3:23-24
23   And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us.
24   Whoever keeps God’s commandments abides in Him, and He will abide in him, and by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

As long as one remains abiding in Christ, then Christ will remain abiding in him - that is the only way to have the Son.

Blessings!


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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #67 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 12:22:45 »
Ridiculous.  So you can be saved forever, but lose eternal life?  Not scriptural, and nonsense.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #68 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 12:25:11 »
  We are placed into the  Family of God by God Himself.

Of course, but there are conditions to be met by each of us upon which God Himself promises to place us into the Family of God.

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Re: Can a Christian lose salvation?
« Reply #69 on: Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 12:28:17 »
  We are placed into the  Family of God by God Himself.

Of course, but there are conditions to be met by each of us upon which God Himself promises to place us into the Family of God.

What conditions? Other than to be humble enough to acknowledge  and confess our need for our Savior, what others are there?

 

     
anything