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Cally
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« Reply #525 on: September 04, 2009, 06:02:56 AM »

Here's why this issue is important, and isn't "legalism".

The spirit behind egalitarianism, in question, says something like this, and this is hardcore (and obviously varies in severity by its followers): "we will avoid being servants, such as in a kingdom, when we make servants out of each other--then we can be each others' master." A mistaken concept, that that's how you become more equal to God, where being counted worthy really comes from submission to headship.

Since God has become man's slave, it empties God of his true power (accurately, of course, what man can access when not his servant), and in turn, everyone's. And that's what happens to the church becoming "effeminate" and the culture's men becoming weaker and weaker. One thing you'll hear from that camp a LOT that is common in modern America is a God who does whatever a spoiled brat of a human being wants.

He doesn't. Why not?  Crying and sad.

I mean, really, folks: he died for my sins, but he isn't giving me a yacht!!!!! HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?!

Because man must realize that he was MADE to glorify God--God wasn't made for man, but man for God. And . . .

"Man was not made for woman, but woman for man." (1 Corinthians 11:9)


So when woman defiantly claims in her heart, "I was not made for man!" there is the beginning of the gross error with severe consequences, a path that also leads in "I was not made for God," but rather . . .

<re-enter the spoiled brat> "God was made to do whatever I want."

For obvious reasons men are part of this problem too, some also aspiring to become spoiled brats of God.

1 Corinthians 11:3-14 show something very important:who was made for who, on principle of who came out of who.

Relationally, women like to marry when they see a man with whom she will be part of something exciting; research female infidelity--70% of divorces--and that's the most common story in America, of Mr. domesticated nice guy becoming boring and she wants a new guy in order to be part of something interesting again. Of course, we want the man's head to be Christ whom it really is, and then when the head of woman is man, she is part of the higher purpose that man was (Adam, originally) created to serve.

Atheists are usually at an advantage here (hence the lower occurrence of this happening in that demographic). Unlike non-denominational Christians, in which "Man treats woman like Christ did the church" is erroneously emphasized like he does nothing but go out of his way for his wife (somehow this spin is so popular these days, in such a way that effectively nullifies instruction to the wife practically altogether), they don't have to hear any teaching AT ALL. Catholics, and more "traditional" cultures, fare in other parts of the world has the most success, there.

Once again, it's true that some things need proper balance, understanding how men and women are truly the same, and ways they're different, and admittedly culture (although it's NOT the same in all "oppressive" cultures) has some unfortunate ways of defining gender differences, and it's true that leaders can have a general tendency to "Lord it over" their subordinates which also makes it incomprehensible for some that authorities are in fact servants of the people from God. (Romans 13:1-3)
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« Reply #525 on: September 04, 2009, 06:02:56 AM »

 
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« Reply #526 on: September 04, 2009, 06:38:23 AM »

Quote Volkmar
It's interesting how elders/overseers are commonly thought of in business terms--CEO's.  Misses the point of the NT perspective.  The chief metaphor that the Bible gives for the church is not organization, but organism. Consequently, the corporation metaphor is a distorted one.

Yes and many times by men frustrated because they have not been able to make it in the business world but feel qualified to be rulers and call the shots in God's world.  ( The answer to the obvious question in your mind is yes I have had some bad experiences with elderships. That is because they were trying to be authoritative rulers and not loving spiritual guides)  Christ is the head of His church and it needs no other.  He has all power and all authority and that leaves none for anyone else.
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« Reply #526 on: September 04, 2009, 06:38:23 AM »

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Cally
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« Reply #527 on: September 04, 2009, 07:13:38 AM »

For the anti-authority crowd, what about what Paul says about judges in the church between disputes (and Paul says "appoint," as in give them make them "judges")? Are you going to claim that a judge between disputes doesn't have authority?
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« Reply #528 on: September 04, 2009, 07:24:39 AM »

Dueling Greek word studies.
Tit.1:5
KATHISTEMI
"Titus was to appoint in every city in Crete. Not a formal ecclesiastical ordination is in view, but the appoitment for the recognition of the churches, of those who had already been raised up and qualified by the holy spirit, and given evidence of this in their life and service"   Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament words.

In Tim it is TITHEMI  "to put is used of appointment of any form of service....I set you would be more in keeping with the metaphor of grafting."

Not even the Greek is always a sure understanding.

I really don't have a problem with elders as spiritual shepards (not a board of directors) however, these men should already posses the life and attitude that makes them an elder.  If not all the voting or putting before a congregation will not make them one.  There also is no evidence of them being the decision makers for the assembly.

I don't know about "formal ecclesiastical ordination" or what that even entails, but I'm not sure how the above quote changes anything.  I feel like we're arguing over semantics here.

"Appointment for recognition of the churches"-- fine, describe it that way.  But, we're still talking about men who were designated to hold positions of some responsibility, aren't we?

Were they already raised up and qualified by the Holy Spirit?  Perhaps, and I have no problem with that either.  That's not even the issue.

At the end of the day, Paul instructed Titus to appoint/designate/recognize certain men to be in positions of responsibility, based on the criteria given. 


The appointment of elders even goes back to Acts 14:23, where elders were appointed in every church on Paul's missionary journeys, where different Greek words are used, by the way:

χειροτονέω,v  {khi-rot-on-eh'-o}
1) to vote by stretching out the hand  2) to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some  office or duty  3) to elect, create, appoint

πρεσβύτερος,a  {pres-boo'-ter-os}
1) elder, of age,  1a) the elder of two people  1b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior  1b1) forefathers  2) a term of rank or office  2a) among the Jews  2a1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in  early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were  selected from elderly men)  2a2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and  administered justice  2b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies  (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and  presbyters interchangeably  2c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court  seated on thrones around the throne of God
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« Reply #529 on: September 04, 2009, 07:38:13 AM »

DCR
I don't think we have a disagreement on if there are to be elders or that they have a work and a responsibility in the assembly.  We may have a disagreement over authority.  ( I find no record of them making decisions for the whole assembly. ) I see them leading by example of their life, folks we would naturally turn to for advise in spiritual matters, one who we would listen to and usually heed their advise but not be obligated to turn the whole decision making process of the assembly over to them.
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« Reply #530 on: September 04, 2009, 07:57:36 AM »

Derek,

Still enjoying your wry wit ;o)

Sorry, I sometimes don't intend to come across that way.  Wink

Yeah, right. ;o)

Jonhb answered well concerning "appoint".

See my response to him above this.  What do you think about that?


Have you noticed Vine's def.?

Quote
<2,,2525,kathistemi>
a strengthened form of No. 1, usually signifies "to appoint a person to a position." In this sense the verb is often translated "to make" or "to set," in appointing a person to a place of authority, e.g., a servant over a household, Matt. 24:45,47; 25:21,23; Luke 12:42,44; a judge, Luke 12:14; Acts 7:27,35; a governor, Acts 7:10; man by God over the work of His hands, Heb. 2:7. It is rendered "appoint," with reference to the so-called seven deacons in Acts 6:3. The RV translates it by "appoint" in Titus 1:5, instead of "ordain," of the elders whom Titus was to "appoint" in every city in Crete. Not a formal eccelesiastical ordination is in view, but the "appointment," for the recognition of the churches, of those who had already been raised up and qualified by the Holy Spirit, and had given evidence of this in their life and service (see No. 11). It is used of the priests of old, Heb. 5:1; 7:28; 8:3 (RV, "appointed"). See CONDUCT, MAKE, ORDAIN, SET.


See my response to Johnb, who also quoted this.  I've not used the term "formal ecclesiastical ordination," so I'm not sure what Vine means by that.  But, I have no particular problem with what he says is the more accurate meaning.  So, I'm not sure how that poses a problem toward what I've been saying, unless you can elaborate.  I suspect some assumptions are floating around here.


How do you understand the word "oversee" as Paul uses it?

"episkopos" is the word used in 1 Timothy 3 and in Titus 1.

ἐπίσκοπος,n  {ep-is'-kop-os}
1) an overseer  1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done  by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or  superintendent  1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

(http://www.greekbible.com/index.php)

A popular term I've heard used in recent years for "elder" is "shepherd."  A shepherd's role is to protect the sheep from the wolves and guard the sheep from going astray.  Peter (I think it was) warns against elders "lording over" the flock though.  So, there is a boundary placed even on these overseers... so that they might not "micro-manage" (to use a business term) the church.


You have the basic, normative definition.  I would add that the usual situation is that too much is read into the word when we use it in religious jargon.  "Oversight" or "overseer" (episcopos) as you note comes from compounding two words, epi, "over," skopeo, "to look or watch",  I've read that the word was commonly used in that time to refer to the guy in the tower watching over the vineyard or crops to keep away predators--animal and human.  The "look-out".  

Also, as you note, several other words are used to describe other aspects of this "leadership"; elder and shepherd.  "Elder" denotes age and experience; "shepherd" involves protection and guidance.

It's interesting how elders/overseers are commonly thought of in business terms--CEO's.  Misses the point of the NT perspective.  The chief metaphor that the Bible gives for the church is not organization, but organism. Consequently, the corporation metaphor is a distorted one.

Quote
...a chief metaphor for the church is that of a living family. For this reason, the Biblical model for Christian leadership is that of a spiritual mother and father (1 Thes. 2:6-12). Notwithstanding, even the parental image of leadership can become distorted and turned into cold prose if not viewed against the backdrop of the general priesthood of all believers and our primary relationship with one another as brothers and sisters (Matt. 23:8). Plainly stated, the leaders of the New Testament church led in a non-hierarchical, non-aristocratic, non-authoritarian, non-institutional, and non-clerical way. Moreover, the leadership that is envisioned in the New Testament is primarily functional, and more importantly, it is relational.

Thus, to have the leadership of the local church function according to the same principles as that of a corporate executive in a business or an aristocrat in an imperial caste-system was never the Lord's thought. It is for this reason that the New Testament authors never chose to use hierarchical and imperial metaphors to describe church leadership. Rather, the leaders of the New Testament church are depicted as slaves and as children, rather than as lords and masters (Luke 22:25-26). While this sort of thinking comes in direct conflict with today's popular ideas of authority, it meshes perfectly with the Biblical teaching of the kingdom of God--the sphere in which the weak are strong, the poor are rich, the humble are exalted, and the last are first.

As far as I can tell, I agree with all of that.  I've never compared elders to corporate executives nor described them as lords and masters (in fact, I cited Peter's statement that elders should not be lording over the flock).  So, if these are concerns you're addressing in what I've said, then you're reading some things into what I've said that I haven't said.

There's structure, and then there's Structure.  Some structure is necessary for the good of the people.  In your understanding how much structure is "necessary" and what is it's purpose?



V

Agreed.  So, maybe we're not that far apart.  I don't believe in overly authoritarian elderships, if that's what you're getting at.

Not that far apart.  However, I don't trust in any form of "authoritarian elderships".  I do think it is possible to function  under Christ's authority for the benefit of the ekklesia.


Quote
The chief reason why our ideas of church leadership have strayed so far from the Biblical teaching can be traced to our tendency to project our American political notions of authority, position, and office onto the Biblical writers and read them back into the New Testament text. Hence, when we read words like "pastor," "overseer," and "elder" in the New Testament, we tend to think of them in terms of executive officials like "President" and "Senator." In this way, we regard elders, pastors, and overseers as sociological constructs (offices). We view them as vacancy slots that possess a reality independent of the persons that populate them. Accordingly, we ascribe church officials with unquestioned authority over all other believers in the assembly simply because they "hold office."

The New Testament notion of leadership, however, is markedly different. There is no Biblical warrant for the idea that church leadership is official, nor for the notion that some believers have authority over other believers. The only authority that exists in the church is Christ Himself. Humans have no authority in themselves. Divine authority is only vested in the Head. Therefore, authority in the New Testament is representative. This means that while believers can represent and express Divine authority, they never assume such authority.

The task of Biblical leadership, then, is simply to discover, express, and model the will of the Head. As far as a member of the Body is reflecting the Mind of the Head, to that degree he is representing Divine authority. And to the degree that a member is modeling the will of God, to that degree he is leading. In this connection, Biblical leadership is service-oriented; leaders are those who excel in service and ministry. This enables them to model and pattern how the whole church ought to function. Therefore, it is no wonder that the Apostle Paul never chose to use any of the 40 plus common Greek words for "office" and "authority" when discussing Christian leadership. The startling reality is that Paul's favorite word for defining Biblical leadership is the opposite of what natural minds would suspect--it is diakonos, which means "a servant."

In his beautiful exposition of Mark 10:42-43, Ray Stedman remarks,
Authority among Christians is not derived from the same source as worldly authority, nor is it to be exercised in the same manner. The world's view of authority places men over one another, as in a military command structure, a business executive hierarchy, or a governmental system...Urged by the competitiveness created by the Fall, and faced with the rebelliousness and ruthlessness of sinful human nature, the world could not function without the use of command structures and executive decision. But as Jesus carefully stated, '...it shall not be so among you.' Disciples are always in a different relationship to one another than worldlings are. Christians are brothers and sisters, children of one Father, and members one of another. Jesus put it clearly in Matthew 23:8, 'One is your Master, and all you are brethren.' Throughout twenty centuries the church has virtually ignored these words. Probably with the best of intentions, it has nevertheless repeatedly borrowed in total the authority structures of the world, changed the names of executives from kings, generals, captains, presidents, governors, secretaries, heads, and chiefs to popes, patriarchs, bishops, stewards, deacons, pastors, and elders, and gone merrily on its way, lording it over the brethren and thus destroying the model of servanthood which our Lord intended...Somewhere, surely, the words of Jesus, '...it shall not be so among you,' must find some effect. Yet in most churches today an unthinking acceptance has been given to the idea that the pastor is the final voice of authority in both doctrine and practice, and that he is the executive officer of the church with respect to administration. But surely, if a pope over the whole church is bad, a pope in every church is no better![/color] ("A Pastor's Authority," Discovery Paper #3500, Discovery Publishing).

Let's not forget the fact that New Testament elders were servants of the Master, the Lord Jesus, who alone owned the rights to the church. Thus, throughout the entire New Testament, no church leader is ever referred to as "the head" of a church. Such a title is exclusively reserved for the Lord Jesus. Since the elders of the early assembly did not view the church as belonging to them, they did not push their agendas through by sheer force nor roadblock others into mindless submission by an appeal to "their position." In other words, the elders of the early church did not operate as an oligarchy (absolute rule by a few) or a dictatorship (monarchical rule by one person).  

By the same token, the early assembly did not operate like a modern democracy. The New Testament never envisions the affairs of the church being resolved through majority rule. While we may think that our American democratic system is rooted in Biblical theology, there is not a single example in the entire New Testament where we find decisions being made by a show of hands.



V

That's all fine.

I think that what we can agree on is that there were recognized positions for elders in the churches.  You're really venturing into the issue of how they lead.  That's never been the issue in our discussion though, as far as I am concerned.  What we were talking about regards the issue of the prerequisite qualifications and/or criteria of these individuals, as far as how strictly or loosely we should apply Paul's instructions today. 

If you want to discuss how these elders/shepherds/pastors should function and/or lead in the churches, that's really a separate issue.
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« Reply #530 on: September 04, 2009, 07:57:36 AM »

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« Reply #531 on: September 04, 2009, 08:08:05 AM »

Here's why this issue is important, and isn't "legalism".

The spirit behind egalitarianism, in question, says something like this, and this is hardcore (and obviously varies in severity by its followers): "we will avoid being servants, such as in a kingdom, when we make servants out of each other--then we can be each others' master." A mistaken concept, that that's how you become more equal to God, where being counted worthy really comes from submission to headship.

Since God has become man's slave, it empties God of his true power (accurately, of course, what man can access when not his servant), and in turn, everyone's. And that's what happens to the church becoming "effeminate" and the culture's men becoming weaker and weaker. One thing you'll hear from that camp a LOT that is common in modern America is a God who does whatever a spoiled brat of a human being wants.

He doesn't. Why not?  Crying and sad.

I mean, really, folks: he died for my sins, but he isn't giving me a yacht!!!!! HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?!

Because man must realize that he was MADE to glorify God--God wasn't made for man, but man for God. And . . .

"Man was not made for woman, but woman for man." (1 Corinthians 11:9)


So when woman defiantly claims in her heart, "I was not made for man!" there is the beginning of the gross error with severe consequences, a path that also leads in "I was not made for God," but rather . . .

<re-enter the spoiled brat> "God was made to do whatever I want."

For obvious reasons men are part of this problem too, some also aspiring to become spoiled brats of God.

1 Corinthians 11:3-14 show something very important:who was made for who, on principle of who came out of who.

Relationally, women like to marry when they see a man with whom she will be part of something exciting; research female infidelity--70% of divorces--and that's the most common story in America, of Mr. domesticated nice guy becoming boring and she wants a new guy in order to be part of something interesting again. Of course, we want the man's head to be Christ whom it really is, and then when the head of woman is man, she is part of the higher purpose that man was (Adam, originally) created to serve.

Atheists are usually at an advantage here (hence the lower occurrence of this happening in that demographic). Unlike non-denominational Christians, in which "Man treats woman like Christ did the church" is erroneously emphasized like he does nothing but go out of his way for his wife (somehow this spin is so popular these days, in such a way that effectively nullifies instruction to the wife practically altogether), they don't have to hear any teaching AT ALL. Catholics, and more "traditional" cultures, fare in other parts of the world has the most success, there.

Once again, it's true that some things need proper balance, understanding how men and women are truly the same, and ways they're different, and admittedly culture (although it's NOT the same in all "oppressive" cultures) has some unfortunate ways of defining gender differences, and it's true that leaders can have a general tendency to "Lord it over" their subordinates which also makes it incomprehensible for some that authorities are in fact servants of the people from God. (Romans 13:1-3)


Methinks that what you say in that post has more to do with your own problems and struggles...


V
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« Reply #532 on: September 04, 2009, 08:13:15 AM »

DCR
I don't think we have a disagreement on if there are to be elders or that they have a work and a responsibility in the assembly.  We may have a disagreement over authority.

Do we?  How so?  As I said to Volkmar, I think some assumptions are being made about the concepts I have in mind regarding elders and authority, assumptions that may not be accurate.

The only thing I've discussed are the qualifications of these men, according to Paul... not so much how they lead or execute their authority.  These are two separate issues.  My interest here has been the former.  I have no argument with you on the latter.

( I find no record of them making decisions for the whole assembly. )

I'm not exactly sure what this means.  I will point out how the apostles and elders of the churches met in Acts 15 to discuss and make decisions on the circumcision question, and then they wrote letters sent to the churches, informing them of the decision made (what does that say about congregational autonomy, by the way? Look around ).

But, as far as elders serving as dictators controlling everything in each congregation, that's something I've not said.  Again, what I was interested in here was the question of what Paul gave as criteria for who was qualified to be "recognized" (if you like that word better than "appointed) as elders as well as how strictly we should also apply the criteria he gave.

That's a completely separate issue from how they function once they've been qualified, recognized, and/or appointed, as far as I'm concerned.

I see them leading by example of their life, folks we would naturally turn to for advise in spiritual matters, one who we would listen to and usually heed their advise but not be obligated to turn the whole decision making process of the assembly over to them.

I completely agree with this.  I will add, however, that it would be the elders' responsibility to take action and address any problems that come up in the churches.  So, they should not simply be passive gurus on the sidelines that are available for consultation.

But, they shouldn't be dictators either.  On that, I agree.
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« Reply #533 on: September 04, 2009, 08:33:16 AM »

DCR
That is why I said we may have a disagreement.. I did not know your views on that part.  I don't think we are that far apart.  If you will notice even in Acts 15 the congregation was involved in this decision.  "The apostles, and elders along with the whole assembly..."  The assembly was pursuaded not dictated to.
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« Reply #533 on: September 04, 2009, 08:33:16 AM »

 
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« Reply #534 on: September 04, 2009, 08:55:50 AM »

In 1 Timothy 5:17, Paul recognizes elder who "rule" well - the NIV says "directs the affairs of the church."

Are elders to be authoritarian? No.  Do they give oversight with full authority to make decisions?  Yes.
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« Reply #534 on: September 04, 2009, 08:55:50 AM »

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« Reply #535 on: September 04, 2009, 09:02:38 AM »

DCR
That is why I said we may have a disagreement.. I did not know your views on that part.  I don't think we are that far apart.  If you will notice even in Acts 15 the congregation was involved in this decision.  "The apostles, and elders along with the whole assembly..."  The assembly was pursuaded not dictated to.

The assembly must always be persuaded, just like anyone else.  Even though as OD points out, that elders have authority to make decisions for the local body, said local body can vote with their feet.
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« Reply #536 on: September 04, 2009, 07:11:30 PM »




Methinks that what you say in that post has more to do with your own problems and struggles...


V

Methinks you haven't even started on yours, yet, especially without showing much of a concept of something like Romans 13:1-3. But I am very accustomed to your attitudes, as you can see.

Authorities can be your servants. Did you know that, V? It doesn't sound like you or Pheobe have a grasp of that. And like I said, that suggests a great deal of issues.

---------

It's unfortunate that it doesn't occur to pew-sitters to help their leadership. The issue behind that is complicated, and part of it has to do with the way churches used to be: groups truly stuck together with every aspect of their lives, so elders could be counted on for a great deal more . . . however, I hope pastors learn how to get people helping out/supporting the elders more if possible, while making sure the group knows what it's doing with itself actively . . .
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 07:40:43 PM by Cally » Logged

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« Reply #537 on: September 05, 2009, 10:35:07 AM »




Methinks that what you say in that post has more to do with your own problems and struggles...


V

Methinks you haven't even started on yours, yet, especially without showing much of a concept of something like Romans 13:1-3. But I am very accustomed to your attitudes, as you can see.

Authorities can be your servants. Did you know that, V? It doesn't sound like you or Pheobe have a grasp of that. And like I said, that suggests a great deal of issues.

---------

It's unfortunate that it doesn't occur to pew-sitters to help their leadership. The issue behind that is complicated, and part of it has to do with the way churches used to be: groups truly stuck together with every aspect of their lives, so elders could be counted on for a great deal more . . . however, I hope pastors learn how to get people helping out/supporting the elders more if possible, while making sure the group knows what it's doing with itself actively . . .



Ahh...which "authorities" are we talking about in Rom. 13 ?

Interesting how you seem to know so much about me.  Also interesting that from your perspective people are either "pew-sitters" or "leaders".  Thank God that them pastors know how to teach people to support the elders...(?)


V
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"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
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« Reply #537 on: September 05, 2009, 10:35:07 AM »

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« Reply #538 on: September 05, 2009, 04:53:10 PM »

Here's why this issue is important, and isn't "legalism".

The spirit behind egalitarianism, in question, says something like this, and this is hardcore (and obviously varies in severity by its followers): "we will avoid being servants, such as in a kingdom, when we make servants out of each other--then we can be each others' master." A mistaken concept, that that's how you become more equal to God, where being counted worthy really comes from submission to headship.

Since God has become man's slave, it empties God of his true power (accurately, of course, what man can access when not his servant), and in turn, everyone's. And that's what happens to the church becoming "effeminate" and the culture's men becoming weaker and weaker. One thing you'll hear from that camp a LOT that is common in modern America is a God who does whatever a spoiled brat of a human being wants.

He doesn't. Why not?  Crying and sad.

I mean, really, folks: he died for my sins, but he isn't giving me a yacht!!!!! HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?!

Because man must realize that he was MADE to glorify God--God wasn't made for man, but man for God. And . . .

"Man was not made for woman, but woman for man." (1 Corinthians 11:9)


So when woman defiantly claims in her heart, "I was not made for man!" there is the beginning of the gross error with severe consequences, a path that also leads in "I was not made for God," but rather . . .

<re-enter the spoiled brat> "God was made to do whatever I want."

For obvious reasons men are part of this problem too, some also aspiring to become spoiled brats of God.

1 Corinthians 11:3-14 show something very important:who was made for who, on principle of who came out of who.

Relationally, women like to marry when they see a man with whom she will be part of something exciting; research female infidelity--70% of divorces--and that's the most common story in America, of Mr. domesticated nice guy becoming boring and she wants a new guy in order to be part of something interesting again. Of course, we want the man's head to be Christ whom it really is, and then when the head of woman is man, she is part of the higher purpose that man was (Adam, originally) created to serve.

Atheists are usually at an advantage here (hence the lower occurrence of this happening in that demographic). Unlike non-denominational Christians, in which "Man treats woman like Christ did the church" is erroneously emphasized like he does nothing but go out of his way for his wife (somehow this spin is so popular these days, in such a way that effectively nullifies instruction to the wife practically altogether), they don't have to hear any teaching AT ALL. Catholics, and more "traditional" cultures, fare in other parts of the world has the most success, there.

Once again, it's true that some things need proper balance, understanding how men and women are truly the same, and ways they're different, and admittedly culture (although it's NOT the same in all "oppressive" cultures) has some unfortunate ways of defining gender differences, and it's true that leaders can have a general tendency to "Lord it over" their subordinates which also makes it incomprehensible for some that authorities are in fact servants of the people from God. (Romans 13:1-3)


Quote
"...then we can be each others' master."


What a bunch o' malarky.  You obviously still don't understand egalitarianism.

I understand patriarchy, however, having lived in it all my life.  Patriarchy says that men are women's masters. 

As for V and me, together we "grasp" about 70 years more than you.

BTW, cally, all of the men I know came out of a woman. 

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« Reply #539 on: September 05, 2009, 05:25:44 PM »

I was a test tube baby, cloned.   In fact, there are more of me lurking around in various stages of development.   
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