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Author Topic: Can Women Be Elders?  (Read 34302 times)
stevehut
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2008, 11:14:48 AM »
Quote from: davidandme on October 09, 2008, 06:50:46 PM
Usually God does not interferes with a culture if it doesn't contradict His own laws.

God told Eve to submit to her husband.  And I don't think Adam and Eve were bound by any social customs, were they?   No worries

All through the Bible, God tells us that women should submit to their husbands.  All of the leaders in Jewish and Christian society were men. (Yeah, go ahead and make an issue of Deborah.  Doesn't change the principle.)  Seems strange that God would require a women to be submissive at home, and at the same time be in charge at church.
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Steven Hutson

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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2008, 11:14:48 AM »
 
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stevehut
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2008, 11:16:46 AM »
Quote from: bemark on October 09, 2008, 05:52:19 PM
In our church we have no women elders   We have women pastors

I don't see a real distinction there.  Either women are permitted to lead a Christian assembly, or they're not.
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Steven Hutson

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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2008, 11:16:46 AM »
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Bocephus
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2008, 11:17:45 AM »
Quote from: w8ing4daybreak on October 09, 2008, 09:16:07 PM
I used to be pretty conservative on this issue.  My views are beginning to change.

There were a few women who were in leadership positions during Biblical times.  Deborah comes to mind.  I know she wasn't an elder, but she definitely was a leader. 


Gary, This one's for you brother:
http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Irving-Bible-Church-Puts-First-Woman-in-the-Pulpit

If I ever make it to Irving, I will visit another one then.  Joking aside, I am a complementarian, not an egalitarian.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2008, 11:18:03 AM »
Quote from: stevehut on October 10, 2008, 11:16:46 AM
Quote from: bemark on October 09, 2008, 05:52:19 PM
In our church we have no women elders   We have women pastors

I don't see a real distinction there.  Either women are permitted to lead a Christian assembly, or they're not.

Biblically, pastor=elder.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
stevehut
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2008, 11:23:11 AM »
Quote from: Gary on October 10, 2008, 11:18:03 AM
Biblically, pastor=elder.

But not always so, in modern practice.

My only real point there, was that women should have authority over men in either capacity.
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Steven Hutson

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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 11:28:34 AM »
Quote from: stevehut on October 10, 2008, 11:23:11 AM
Quote from: Gary on October 10, 2008, 11:18:03 AM
Biblically, pastor=elder.

But not always so, in modern practice.

My only real point there, was that women should have authority over men in either capacity.

I don't look at the issue primarily in terms of authority, but in terms of responsibility and service.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 11:28:34 AM »
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bemark
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 11:37:12 AM »
Quote from: stevehut on October 10, 2008, 11:16:46 AM
Quote from: bemark on October 09, 2008, 05:52:19 PM
In our church we have no women elders We have women pastors

I don't see a real distinction there.  Either women are permitted to lead a Christian assembly, or they're not.
Just stating it how it is in our church   Then reading that article   it does say  elder is like pastor


So if that is the case      do you go as far and say that even on this forum   that is should be only men to men

no woman allowed to teach or instruct another man?      

I really don't know    I think I will eat popcorn and let the scholars teach while I stay silent  Watching the show and eating popcorn
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Imabear
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 01:42:47 PM »
Quote from: Gary on October 10, 2008, 11:17:45 AM
Quote from: w8ing4daybreak on October 09, 2008, 09:16:07 PM
I used to be pretty conservative on this issue.  My views are beginning to change.

There were a few women who were in leadership positions during Biblical times.  Deborah comes to mind.  I know she wasn't an elder, but she definitely was a leader. 


Gary, This one's for you brother:
http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Irving-Bible-Church-Puts-First-Woman-in-the-Pulpit

If I ever make it to Irving, I will visit another one then.  Joking aside, I am a complementarian, not an egalitarian.
Smile I learned some new words. 
I hadn't read anything but the headline.
I'm on the fence.  I have no aspirations of being an elder or in a leadership position in Church or anywhere else.   (I am a "ministry team leader", but that just means I am the librarian, and I have a few helpers... I report to and am accountable to an elder.)  We have occasional meetings with the elder team to discuss goals, direction, ideas, special needs.
I see some women as being extraordinarily gifted and would like them to be able to use their gifts in the church. 
Analogy: Maybe like a Physician's Assistant.  They can perform a physical, and write a prescription, under the direction of an MD.  Does that make sense? 
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 02:27:21 PM »
Quote from: stevehut on October 10, 2008, 11:14:48 AM
Quote from: davidandme on October 09, 2008, 06:50:46 PM
Usually God does not interferes with a culture if it doesn't contradict His own laws.

God told Eve to submit to her husband.  And I don't think Adam and Eve were bound by any social customs, were they?   No worries

All through the Bible, God tells us that women should submit to their husbands.  All of the leaders in Jewish and Christian society were men. (Yeah, go ahead and make an issue of Deborah.  Doesn't change the principle.)  Seems strange that God would require a women to be submissive at home, and at the same time be in charge at church.
God made a prophesy after sin.  That does not mean that He was pleased with it.  Please read Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee

The Lord did not bring sorrow to anybody.  But He makes Himself responsible for everything that happens in this world.
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 02:27:21 PM »
 
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OkiMar
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 04:00:51 PM »
Quote from: Gary on October 09, 2008, 04:55:39 PM
Is it Biblical?
It's not biblical. Women do not meet the qualifications for elders according to Paul's letter to Timothy.
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 04:00:51 PM »
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Johnb
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2008, 04:17:19 PM »
I the greek the word for elder just means older man.  The female version means older woman.  I don't see either as an official office of the assembly.  We are told what a widow is so we can reconize one when we see them.  Paul explained what an older man in the faith should look like so we could reconize them and seek their wisdom.  I do not see this as a list of qualifications for some official office.

If it is an official office how do we get them?  The only way they were reconized in NT times was by the HS or an inspired preacher.  So how shall we meet this NT requirement if it is an official office?     
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OkiMar
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 04:25:40 PM »
I Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
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Johnb
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 04:47:44 PM »
Quote from: OkiMar on October 10, 2008, 04:25:40 PM
I Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

One of the problems with proof text is they seldom prove the point.  Your quote is from the KJV.  One of the flaws is seen here.  King James insisted that bishop be in the KJV even though it certainly is not in the Greek.  Also he was justifying his office by having bisops in the church.  He said " where there is no bishop there is no king.  That being said the word office is not in the Greek.  A betterliteral rendering is If any man desires (oversite or to be out front) he desires a good work.  Office is not in the Greek.

That being said if God intended this to be a perpetual office where is the process for making one an elder?
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 04:47:44 PM »
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Sherman Nobles
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 05:22:19 PM »
Leadership talents and character traits are not limited by gender.  Rather, a person's gifting makes place for them. 

So, is male leadership in the Bible "Descriptive" or "Prescriptive".  I believe it is "Descriptive".  In other words, the Bible predominantly speaks of and even assumes men in leadership positions because men were the leaders in those cultures; but that's not necessarily the way it should be.  Rather, I believe we should walk in mutual respect and honor seeking to grow in servant leadership. 

Frankly, I don't care whether the messenger is male or female, what matters is the message.  And I don't care who leads as long as we're following the Lord.  As for leadership in a local community of faith, I believe a team of people, men and women, with differing gifts and talents is the healthiest expression of a local body of believers. 
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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
davidandme
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 06:57:56 PM »
Quote from: stevehut on October 10, 2008, 11:16:46 AM
Quote from: bemark on October 09, 2008, 05:52:19 PM
In our church we have no women elders   We have women pastors

I don't see a real distinction there.  Either women are permitted to lead a Christian assembly, or they're not.
In Bible times women could not  ask a question in church.  Not even to their husbands.  This was a cultural issue and many years ago.  In my opinion Jesus and His followers did not want to interfear with this culture.  It would cause to much confusion.  It was not practical.  However, today we live in a more knowledgeable culture where science has made us aware that intellectually and spiritually both sexes are the same.  If Jesus was on this earth today.  I am sure that He and His followers would have teach certain things a little different, including this very subject.
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Jesus said:  I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the father except through Me.  John 14:6
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