Welcome, Guest. Login or register to use the forums.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 21, 2010, 07:44:07 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Bookstore | Support | Newsletter


+  Christian Forums
|-+  Christian Interests
| |-+  Theology Forum
| | |-+  Can Women Be Elders?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 39 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Can Women Be Elders?  (Read 34706 times)
kensington
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 306
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 5096


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2008, 07:04:28 PM »

No, woman should not have power over men in church.  Although I think sometimes we are much more fitted to the job than some men are.   LOL

Actually, depending on the bylaws of the denom, an Elder may not have authority over men, but the Pastor would have the authority over all of them. So... then a woman could be an elder. 
Logged

Wimpy Christians won't survive spiritual warfare. - Carman

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called, "The Word Of GOD".  {Revelation 19:13}
Christian Forums
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2008, 07:04:28 PM »

 
 Logged
davidandme
Senior Member
****

Manna: 56
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 1279


Me, at St. Louis.

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2008, 07:04:40 PM »

Leadership talents and character traits are not limited by gender.  Rather, a person's gifting makes place for them. 

So, is male leadership in the Bible "Descriptive" or "Prescriptive".  I believe it is "Descriptive".  In other words, the Bible predominantly speaks of and even assumes men in leadership positions because men were the leaders in those cultures; but that's not necessarily the way it should be.  Rather, I believe we should walk in mutual respect and honor seeking to grow in servant leadership. 

Frankly, I don't care whether the messenger is male or female, what matters is the message.  And I don't care who leads as long as we're following the Lord.  As for leadership in a local community of faith, I believe a team of people, men and women, with differing gifts and talents is the healthiest expression of a local body of believers. 

I agree 100%  I was beginning to fear that I was alone on this subject.
Logged

Jesus said:  I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the father except through Me.  John 14:6
Christian Forums
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2008, 07:04:40 PM »

 Logged
Bonnie
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 336
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 8172


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2008, 07:10:23 PM »

In our church we have no women elders   We have women pastors

I don't see a real distinction there.  Either women are permitted to lead a Christian assembly, or they're not.
In Bible times women could not  ask a question in church.  Not even to their husbands.  This was a cultural issue and many years ago.  In my opinion Jesus and His followers did not want to interfear with this culture.  It would cause to much confusion.  It was not practical.  However, today we live in a more knowledgeable culture where science has made us aware that intellectually and spiritually both sexes are the same.  If Jesus was on this earth today.  I am sure that He and His followers would have teach certain things a little different, including this very subject.

I believe Jesus would have stood by His word.  He would have revealed to Paul the truth and not have people going down the wrong path.
Logged

Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Bonnie
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 336
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 8172


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2008, 07:14:06 PM »

No, woman should not have power over men in church.  Although I think sometimes we are much more fitted to the job than some men are.   LOL

Actually, depending on the bylaws of the denom, an Elder may not have authority over men, but the Pastor would have the authority over all of them. So... then a woman could be an elder. 

I believe it goes against the Bible for a woman to have authority over the man.  We don't have elders, just a Pastor and 7 deacons.
You have the right to believe as you see it.  We each have to decide for ourselves what we believe and why.
Logged

Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Bocephus
Global Moderator
Lee's Inner Circle Member
*****

Manna: 400
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 16219


I'm a little more country than that

Blog entries (1)

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2008, 07:16:15 PM »

No, woman should not have power over men in church.  Although I think sometimes we are much more fitted to the job than some men are.   LOL

Actually, depending on the bylaws of the denom, an Elder may not have authority over men, but the Pastor would have the authority over all of them. So... then a woman could be an elder. 

I believe it goes against the Bible for a woman to have authority over the man.  We don't have elders, just a Pastor and 7 deacons.
You have the right to believe as you see it.  We each have to decide for ourselves what we believe and why.

While I don't believe in women being a bishop/presbyter/overseer/elder/pastor, I also do not agree with a church leadership model of a single pastor/elder and deacons.  I believe in the plurality of overseers who take care of the spiritual needs of the church, and deacons who take care of the physical needs of the church.
Logged

"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
OkiMar
Hero
*****

Manna: 83
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 2577


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 07:57:56 PM »

I Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

One of the problems with proof text is they seldom prove the point.  Your quote is from the KJV.  One of the flaws is seen here.  King James insisted that bishop be in the KJV even though it certainly is not in the Greek.  Also he was justifying his office by having bisops in the church.  He said " where there is no bishop there is no king.  That being said the word office is not in the Greek.  A betterliteral rendering is If any man desires (oversite or to be out front) he desires a good work.  Office is not in the Greek.

That being said if God intended this to be a perpetual office where is the process for making one an elder?
In the words of Lee Corso, "Not so fast, my friend." "Bishop" in 1 Tim 1:3 is from the Greek word episcopas, and refers to overseers or, put another way, elders. Episcopas appears four times in the NT:
1) Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
2) Phil 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
3) Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
4) 1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word literally mean "one who watches over." Episcopas refers to the office of an elder.
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 07:57:56 PM »

 Logged
WileyClarkson
Global Moderator
Hero
*****

Manna: 157
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4135


Moderator

Blog entries (1)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2008, 08:10:00 PM »

Coming in on this a little late!  Can you guess what my answer is? A GREAT BIG YES!

This subject cannot be effectively understood by just reading a verse that, in all but a very small number of NT versions, is not translated correctly and without having a good foundation in the early church's history, geographical laws and geographical customs.   I have discussed this issue before with others and it usually ends up in both sides holding their own particular choice of translation--restrictive or not restrictive.

The best study I have found on this subject is a small book written by Richard and Katherin Clark Kroeger.  It is a thorough study but is not so large that one feels that they will never get through it.  There are two versions available.  A pdf that is an earlier version than the book and the book, which can be ordered from http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/index.shtml .  The pdf version can be downloaded from http://www.pcusa.org/womensministries/history-theology/women-elders.pdf .  The Kroegers als wrote a very in depth study of 1 Tim 2 11-15 under the title "I SUffer Not A Woman."  It is available through a number of book retailers, including CBE and Amazon.  This book is worth every penny you will spend on it.  I highly recommend it as it presents a very good explanation of some of the most mistranslated and misunderstood verses in our modern Bible.

I used to be of the opinion that women could never be elders.  However, after doing my own study using available resources from numerous church fellowships (not just CoC) I came to the conclussion that the Church of Christ (sof) has a lot to learn where women are concerned.  I came to the definite conclussion that not only can women be elders, but we are probably sinning in God's eyes by refusing to let women stand equal with men and use their God supplied talents and abilities equally with men in the church.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 08:18:46 PM by WileyClarkson » Logged

Grace to you and peace.

Wiley

On the Ham Bands:  WC5WC

My Personal Web Site:  http://www.clarksons.org/

Looking for information on Gender Equality in the churches of Christ:
http://www.clarksons.org/spiritleads/spiritleads.htm
WileyClarkson
Global Moderator
Hero
*****

Manna: 157
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4135


Moderator

Blog entries (1)

View Profile WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2008, 08:12:12 PM »

Bonnie,

Please note in my previous post, I did not say women were to be over men.  They are to serve equally with men at all levels.

Galations 3:26-29 is about as clear as it gets as to how we are to view and treat each other when we are immersed in Christ.  Equally!
Logged

Grace to you and peace.

Wiley

On the Ham Bands:  WC5WC

My Personal Web Site:  http://www.clarksons.org/

Looking for information on Gender Equality in the churches of Christ:
http://www.clarksons.org/spiritleads/spiritleads.htm
Johnb
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 94
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 5826

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2008, 09:46:23 PM »

I Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

One of the problems with proof text is they seldom prove the point.  Your quote is from the KJV.  One of the flaws is seen here.  King James insisted that bishop be in the KJV even though it certainly is not in the Greek.  Also he was justifying his office by having bisops in the church.  He said " where there is no bishop there is no king.  That being said the word office is not in the Greek.  A betterliteral rendering is If any man desires (oversite or to be out front) he desires a good work.  Office is not in the Greek.

 at being said if God intended this to be a perpetual office where is the process for making one an elder?
In the words of Lee Corso, "Not so fast, my friend." "Bishop" in 1 Tim 1:3 is from the Greek word episcopas, and refers to overseers or, put another way, elders. Episcopas appears four times in the NT:
1) Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
2) Phil 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
3) Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
4) 1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word literally mean "one who watches over." Episcopas refers to the office of an elder.



Okimar
In part you are making my point for me.  Yes I said it is one who has the over site that does not a bishop make.  The word bisop as used in the KJV refers to a bisop an official office in the COE and the RC.  It literally said "If any one (not man) desire the WORK not office.  Again how do you scripturally get men into an official office of an elder in the assembly??   If one is following a pattern for the "church" the pattern must be complete.  The only way elders were ordained (reconized) in the NT was by the Holy Spirit or by an inspired preacher.  So which one of those 2 do you want to use to ordain elders?   Now if we are talking about a man made institutional church.  I think they are free to set up their leadership by their rules.   

We can get down in the weeds of the Greek text if that is what you wish.  But to keep it simple here is I Tim 3:1 from Young's literal translation.


1 Timothy 3
 1Stedfast [is] the word: If any one the oversight doth long for, a right work he desireth;


The rest of the NT talks about older men well worn in the faith who are to persude us with their live and ensample.  They are to watch out for warn and be there for the younger converts.  It is not a position of power and authority.  I know this for at least 3 reasons.  1.  Jesus (when He was ask about who could sat on His right hand..) said the power and authority of a ruler would not be in His Kingdom.  2.  Jesus said all power and authority was given to Him that leaves none for men.  3. The letter to the assemblys were not addressed to elders and there is no example of elders ever making a decision on any thing seperate and apart from "the whole assembly".

Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2008, 09:46:23 PM »

 
 Logged
OkiMar
Hero
*****

Manna: 83
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 2577


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2008, 11:12:45 PM »

Actually, I am showing you that one of the offices is the eldership. The fact that there are qualifications for Elders demonstrates that the office exists. Further, your three points conflict with scripture. Just b/c all authority resides with Christ does not mean that He has not delegated some of that authority (i.e. the Apostles and the Elders of today). FInally, the elders in Ephesus ware charged with overseeing the flock in Acts 20. Elders are absolutely in a position of authority.
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2008, 11:12:45 PM »

 Logged
Bonnie
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 336
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Female
Posts: 8172


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2008, 08:15:33 AM »

Bonnie,

Please note in my previous post, I did not say women were to be over men.  They are to serve equally with men at all levels.

Galations 3:26-29 is about as clear as it gets as to how we are to view and treat each other when we are immersed in Christ.  Equally!

I believe we are equal in God's love for us.  He doesn't love the Jew more than the Gentile, or a man more than a woman.  Although some would argue over that. LOL
He is also referring to our future state in heaven.
Logged

Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Johnb
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 94
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 5826

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2008, 08:44:53 AM »

Okimar
A wave of the hand argument won't work.

An elder is told he has a work not an office,   Jesus said there would be no positions of power where one is over another in His kingdom.  If elder was a position of power and not a loving ensample for the assembly why were not Paul's letters addressed to the elders?   Why do we not have an example of an elder or a group of elders making a decision on anything separate and a part from "the whole assembly"??
If it is a God given office how do we put men in  that office.  Again in NT times only the Holy Spirit and and inspired preachers ordained elders.

Think about what you are saying.  God gave an office in His church but gave no system for placing men in this office.  He gave no examples of them exercising this power to make decisions for the assembly.  When he inspired Paul to write letters to the assembles he did not inspire him to address them to the elders.

Elders are spiritual leaders by their life and ensample not by man given power.  We are to be persuaded by their life and ensample not to be knuckled under by a power structure.  Because they are well worn in the faith they have the obligation (work) of teaching , warning and watching out for the souls of less experienced Christians.  A person is an ensample or elder by their life.  All the voting, putting before a congregation or what ever will not make the an elder if their life does not persuade folks.  Likewise the lack of a vote or official recolonization will not stop one from being an ensample .

 
Logged
Johnb
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 94
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 5826

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2008, 11:03:42 AM »

Okimar here is another thought for you.

Ephesians 4:11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

   
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

 Now why are not these other works made official offices in an institutional church?

If you look at verse 10 you will see that God made all of these folks what they were not man.  Jesus came to set up a spiritual kingdom not another version of the Jewish system where one had to do certain things and follow a certain pattern to be acceptable to God.  Later my brother
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2008, 11:03:42 AM »

 Logged
flapjacklambo
Junior Member
**

Manna: 5
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 18


Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2008, 09:33:18 PM »

hello everyone, this is my first post here and thought this to be an interesting topic to start with.

I certainly agree that women are not to be Pastors, Elders, or in any other position that includes authority over men or in a teaching position over men in the church. The bible is very plain about these topics and although some would say these were cultural rules laid down,, God did not send His Apostle to the Gentiles to teach them cultural rights and wrongs. Paul was sent to teach the Gentiles about Jesus and how they (and we) were (are) to live.

2 Tim 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;17.that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
[/color]

If this scripture is true that would mean that all scripture should be used and taught regardless of the time, place, and culture.

To me it falls down to this, God placed the responsibility of these positions on men and other responsibilities he gave to women. Its not about who is more important or who is better. Sure there are plenty of women that are wonderful speakers and are gifted with a great knowledge of the Word of God; but to go outside the parameters set forth by God isn't right.

God Bless

Jason
Logged

Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Rev. Denny Brake
Johnb
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 94
Online Online

Mood:

Posts: 5826

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2008, 10:01:30 PM »

Jason
When God told the slave to obey his master and the master to treat the slave fairly was He upholding slvaery or telling folks to work within the culture and circumstances they found themselves in?   
Logged
Can Women Be Elders? - Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 ... 39 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Grace-Centered Christian Forums
Bible concordance | abortion ticker | is God real? | galaga | play tetris | copter game | mini golf games | arcade | donkey kong | Christian marriage help | articles | privacy
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC