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Author Topic: Catholic Infant "Baptism"  (Read 5341 times)

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Offline Jaime

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #140 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 21:40:20 »
Another reason I mention it that Jesus started his ministry AFTER the Holy Spirit came upon him like a dove. He faced Satan's temptations as a man, BUT a Holy Spirit empowered man. An example of the power WE have available to us as humans.

I've got to think more about your comment.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #140 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 21:40:20 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #141 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 21:58:46 »
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
        ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and in earth.

The Spirit or BREATH is how God the Father conveys information and Jesus the Son ARTICULATES the Mind of God which, like WIND as the only literaly meaning of Pneuma, cannot be seen or heard until that breath goes through the mouth of Jesus.  The POWER comes from the FATHER and it is transmitted wiith BREATH.

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the WORD of God:


Psa. 55:21 The WORDS [Dabar-Logos] of his MOUTH were smoother than butter,
        but war was in his heart:
        his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

After Jesus Articulated THE WORD transmitted by God's spirit or breath, He said my WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

The POWER was given to JESUS as the only one who REVEALS or makes. God Known.

G1411.  dunamis, doo´-nam-is; from 1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself): — ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

1Cor. 5:4 In the NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ,
        when ye are gathered together, and MY spirit,
        with the POWER of our Lord Jesus Christ

2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, [Jewish Fables]
        when we made known unto you the POWER and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
        but were eyewitnesses of HIS majesty.

Matt. 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he HEALED them.
Matt. 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

Matt. 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

2Tim. 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit OF fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The spirit OF fear is the mind or mental disposition of fear.

Spirit only produces WORDS.

Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
Is. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;
         My spirit that is upon thee,
         and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
         shall not depart out of thy mouth,
         nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
         nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #141 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 21:58:46 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #142 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 22:07:09 »
I was trying to think of an illustration that might help communicate what I have in mind about Jesus' humanity and divinity. Of course any illustration will fall way short, at least mine, but it is the best I can do for now.

I was thinking of a man who is a husband and a father. Sometimes his job takes him out of town for months at a time, and his wife has to keep up with the hands on parenting without him.

While the man is away on the job, does he cease to be a husband or a father? He is not able to be hands on with either role while he is gone, but he does not stop being either one. That is how I see Jesus while on the earth prior to His resurrection. He was still Jehovah God (there was never a time He was not God), but while here He did not exercise His divinity as such, at least not entirely like He did prior to His incarnation and after His resurrection/ascension.

I think of His calming the storm, walking on water, turning water into wine, and raising the dead. While I agree with 4WD and believe He did works by means of the Holy Spirit, does that include all His works. I would say the works I just listed were by faith, so perhaps that has to mean by the Spirit.  ::shrug::

It deserves careful study.  ::reading::

Soterion,

I think your analogy fails to achieve its goal because what you describe is not a state of conflict.
There is not conflict between being a father and being husband. And there is no conflict between being both at the same time.
What you describe is a state of FUNCTION, where in one scenario the task requires fatherly duties, and in the other scenario it requires the tasks of a husband.

In the case of Jesus being both fully God and fully human, we have a state of conflict.
God, by definition, is not human...and humans, by definition, are not God. These natures are in conflict with each other, and they logically exclude one each other.
So in Jesus' case we are not discussing a state of function, we are discussing a state of BEING.

The question whether Jesus as a human being performed miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit is rather irrelevant.
The power of the Holy Spirit comes from the same source: God. The power of the Holy Spirit is God.
And since Jesus was and is 100% God, He did receive the power from Himself.

The scenario that Jesus had to receive power from an external source to perform miracles, would be in conflict with His divinity.
The Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son are of one accord. What Jesus wants, the Father and the Holy Spirit also want!
What the Father wants, Jesus and the Holy Spirit also want. There is no conflict.

There would be no imaginable situation where Jesus could not have performed a miracle because He was not empowered by the Holy Spirit.
This is different from us, we can only perform miracles if enabled by the Holy Spirit. The apostles could only perform miracles if enabled by the Holy Spirit.
Most of the time we people are unable to perform miracles, because we are not enabled or because we are not in one accord with God.
In Jesus' case such a scenario did not and could not exist.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #142 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 22:07:09 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #143 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 22:17:03 »
Another reason I mention it that Jesus started his ministry AFTER the Holy Spirit came upon him like a dove. He faced Satan's temptations as a man, BUT a Holy Spirit empowered man. An example of the power WE have available to us as humans.

I've got to think more about your comment.

But doesn't that confirm what I said all along? That it was impossible for Jesus to cave in to the temptation of Satan?

In a previous post you stated:
"In other words, if he was tempted in all things just as we are, he did so somehow without his divine attributes."

But now you are saying that the power of the Holy Spirit (which is a divine attribute) caused Jesus to succeed.

If Jesus was fully God, then Jesus had the full power of the Holy Spirit at His disposal.
The Father cannot give in to evil, the Holy Spirit cannot give in to evil, then Jesus who was filled with the Holy Spirit could not have given in to evil.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #143 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 22:17:03 »
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Offline AVZ

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #144 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 22:44:28 »
Why could he not be God when he needed to be God and be a human when he needed to be a man? God can do the impossible. The 100/100 explanation is at least as ludicrous as my toggle theory. On the Mount of Transfiguration, he became who he needed to be in that scenario.

I believe Jesus DID become fully human. He laid aside his Godness in that case, and then picked it back up in other cases. Again if he was tempted as anything but a human, his resisting the devil is not remarkable. He was afterall at that time a Holy Spirit empowered Human. But I don't believe he resisted the temptation with his Godness. And I believe he suffered on the cross without his Godness. All his choice.

I can live with it being an inexplicable mystery, it's just that 100% God and 100% man is a very poor explanation of the inexplicable.

"God can do the impossible."
Yeah that argument can be used everywhere, anywhere and in any circumstance. You say that 100% + 100% is illogical and makes no sense...I could as well use your argument "God can do the impossible" to refute your stance. So I am not really prepared to take that as an applicable argument for this discussion.

"The 100/100 explanation is at least as ludicrous as my toggle theory."
I am of course glad you call your own theory ridiculous   ::smile::
In my defense the 100/100 theory is descriptive and it has been used for many centuries to describe the scenario.
In fact, taken mathematically, even you describe to it.

See, you agree that Jesus was FULLY human and FULLY God.
Mathematically speaking, full means 100%.
99% means less than full, and 50% means half-full.
So even you agree that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God.

What you disagree with is that Jesus could not be both at the same time.
Hence, you propose the toggle theory, where Jesus was OR man OR God, but never man AND God at the same time.

"And I believe he suffered on the cross without his Godness. All his choice."
I don't think that at all. The suffering on the cross is one of the greatest paradoxes that exists in scripture.
Yes, as man Jesus suffered...but as God He was ultimately pleased.

Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him"

I believe Jesus went to the cross BECAUSE He was God, He let Himself be nailed to the cross BECAUSE He was God, He submitted to the suffering BECAUSE He was God, He desired the pain BECAUSE He was God.
The pain was human, the task was divine.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #144 on: Tue Feb 20, 2018 - 22:44:28 »



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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #145 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 03:29:51 »
Soterion, what is your take on Jesus saying you can blaspheme the son, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable?
It's a very fair and logically question, but very simple one to answer. Jesus was speaking of his humanity, and the Spirit of God CANNOT be spoken of it THAT SENSE ever. One may have blasphemed the MAN named Jesus from Nazareth, and STILL could have been forgiven in Jesus' DAY~but to blaspheme the Godhead concerning their DIVINITY in any manner~there is no forgiveness. No man TODAY can blaspheme Jesus CHRIST the Son of the Living God and still be forgiven of such blasphemy, for there is no name under heaven given among men through which they can be forgiven of their sins.

Let me say more in my next post concerning Jesus Christ the Son of God......the most important subject of the word of God. Maybe in a different thread.
Quote
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/who-is-jesus-christ-98847/msg1055094966/#msg1055094966
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 04:51:36 by RB »

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #145 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 03:29:51 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #146 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 05:28:11 »
Soterion, what is your take on Jesus saying you can blaspheme the son, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable?
I am not soterion, but I think the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is very similar if not the same as the fourth of the Ten Commandments.

Exo 20:7  "You shall not take carry the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

Jesus warned about the accusing evil doing in the name of God, the Holy Spirit.  The fourth commandment is very similar; particularly if we use an alternate translation of "carry the name of the Lord your God in vain" rather than "take the name of the Lord your God in vain".  It is a particular interest to note that this fourth commandment is the only one of the Ten for which God says that He will not leave unpunished.  To carry the name of the Lord in vain means, I believe, to commit evil in the name of the Lord.  I think of Islamists who steal, rape and murder all in the name of Allah.  I believe that is taking [carrying] the name of the Lord in vain.

I believe that in Matthew 12 Jesus identified blaspheming the Holy Spirit as the accusation of the Holy Spirit as the source of evil.

When Jesus said, "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him", I believe that is much the same as the fourth commandment "carrying the name of the Lord in vain".  In both cases God will not leave such unpunished; i.e., unforgiveable.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #147 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 05:36:45 »
He desired the pain BECAUSE He was God.
I don't think so.

Luk 22:41  And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,
Luk 22:42  saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
Luk 22:43  Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.
Luk 22:44  And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.


Does that sound like He desired the pain?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #148 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 07:23:55 »
What did Jesus empty himself of if he has the fullness of the God head within him? Is this metaphorical language, or did Jesus actually lay down his Divinity?

AVZ, i am not saying my own toggle theory is ludicrous, I am saying that if YOU or anyone thinks it’s ludicrous, it is no more ludicrous than the 100/100 explanation. I am fine having no answer to the inexplicable, but I don’t have to accept a poor explanation, that being the 100/100 God/man thing.

It’s kinda like the sinners prayer thing. We hear such a notion for so long, we think it is cast firmly into scripture.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 08:33:24 by Jaime »

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #148 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 07:23:55 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #149 on: Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 10:35:06 »
My tenure on the forum is always subject to RAPTURE so I would like to post some SCRIPTURE which is the product of SPIRIT.  Maybe you can go back and take a verse or two at a time.  As for the GODHEAD the Word is theotes and means THE DIVINE NATURE or
       Hosi-otēs  A. disposition to observe divine law, piety,  pros theōn ho. piety towards them, Plu.Alc.34 ; “pros tous theous” Id.2.359f; also, like Lat. pietas, “hē pros goneis ho.” D.S.7.4 ; “pros tēn tekousan” Id.31.27.

If you look at context the Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT OF GOD or Spirit which belongs to God.

Matt. 12:28 But if I cast out devils BY the SPIRIT OF GOD
        then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    GOD:     John 4:24 GOD IS A SPIRIT and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    JESUS: Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;
              for a SPIRIT hath not flesh and bones, AS YE SEE ME HAVE
    JESUS: Luke 2:40 And the CHILD grew, and WAXED strong in SPIRIT, filled with WISDOM:
                   and the GRACE of God was upon HIM.
    JESUS:John 3:34 For HE whom God hath SENT SPEAKETH the WORDS OF GOD
                  for God giveth not the SPIRIT by measure [meter] unto HIM.

Matt. 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods,
        except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Matt. 12:30 He that is not with me is against me;
         and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Matt. 12:31 WHEREFORE I say unto you,
        All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
        but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matt. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the SON OF MAN it shall be forgiven him:
        but whosoever speaketh AGAINST the Holy Ghost,
        it shall not be forgiven him,
        neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

GOD BREATHES HIS SPIRIT AND THE RESULT IS THAT JESUS SPEAKS GOD'S WORDS.

John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing:
        the WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE.

THE SPIRIT is BLASPHEMED BY DENYING THE WORD OR REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE WHICH OUTLAWS MOST OF WHAT "KINGDOMS OUTSIDE OF YOU" DO AS OCCUPATION.

2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure WORD of prophecy;
          whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, AS UNTO A LIGHT that shineth in a dark place,
          until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [further expound]
2Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
            but holy men of God SPAKE as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost

The Same Spirit which breathed God's Word into the Prophets led Jesus to FULFILL THE PROPHECIES so that the TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

             Ezek. 13:3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the FOOLISH PROPHETS,
                      that follow THEIR OWN SPIRITS, and have seen nothing!

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
         even as there shall be false teachers among you,
         who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
         even denying the Lord that BOUGJT them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
         by reason of whom THE WAY OF TRUTH [Narrow Sect] shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3 And through COVETOUSNESS shall they with FEIGHNED words make MERCHANDISE of you:
           whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not,
          and their damnation slumbereth not.

Feigned LOGOS are words anyone sells in song or sermon which are ANTI-LOGOS and therefore Anti the Spirit which God breathed into Jesus and are ANTI-Christ because God made His WORD visible and audible as Jesus SPOKE only what God conveyed to Him by SPRIIT.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #150 on: Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 00:01:13 »
What did Jesus empty himself of if he has the fullness of the God head within him? Is this metaphorical language, or did Jesus actually lay down his Divinity?

AVZ, i am not saying my own toggle theory is ludicrous, I am saying that if YOU or anyone thinks it’s ludicrous, it is no more ludicrous than the 100/100 explanation. I am fine having no answer to the inexplicable, but I don’t have to accept a poor explanation, that being the 100/100 God/man thing.

It’s kinda like the sinners prayer thing. We hear such a notion for so long, we think it is cast firmly into scripture.

Jaime,

Jesus still had the fullness of the Godhead within Him, but in His walk on earth He emptied Himself of His glory.
What the event on the Transfiguration showed was Jesus restored to His full glory. The state to which He was to return.

Glory
- Jesus emptied Himself of the honor and glory that comes with being God.

Jesus became a servant
- Instead of the divine position where humans are to serve God, He took on the position where God served humans.

Humility
- Instead of His position as absolute ruler in heaven, He humbled Himself to a position of shame

Inability to physically suffer
- Jesus gave up His inability to experience physical pain, and voluntarily took on the physicality of human senses to the extend of death

Jesus emptied Himself of the entitlements that are exclusively granted to God.
From glory He went to shame, from undisputed He went to disputed, He lived in the perfect and went to dwell in the imperfect, from king He became servant, from worthy He became unworthy.


I don't think your theory is ludicrous, and I don't think I have even used that word or expressed myself in a denigrating manner about your theory.
I am however of the opinion that your theory fails in many ways and it would be intrinsically impossible.
I also think that I have made a valid point to show that the toggle theory contradicts itself, by means that a person who is fully (100%) human cannot toggle back to being God.


I still don't understand your beef with the 100%/100% explanation. You have already stated that you believe Jesus was FULLY human and FULLY God.
You could as well say Jesus was COMPLETELY God and COMPLETELY human, or ENTIRELY God and ENTIRELY human, or WHOLLY, or TOTALLY, or UTTERLY
All these words can be replaced with the mathematical expression: 100%
Your beef is with the statement that Jesus was BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 00:03:52 by AVZ »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #151 on: Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 10:52:48 »
The GODHEAD means DIVINE NATURE or the willingness to OBEY GOD'S COMMANDMENTS.

Those who are iN or Baptized INTO Christ or Clothed with Christ have THE DIVINE NATURE.

Paul COULD HAVE SAID but DID NOT that "JESUS WAS GOD."  Jesus is in the FORMA or IMAGE of God AFTER God THE FATHER made him to be both Lord and Christ.


Offline Jaime

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #152 on: Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 10:56:57 »
Avz, 100% + 100% does not equal 100%. It is a ohilosophical cliche’ that literally means nothing, but a weak attempt to explain the inexplicable. I think the toggle theory is less weak BUT also inadequate.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 14:04:57 by Jaime »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #153 on: Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 11:34:28 »
When Jesus the SON prays to the FATHER in heaven does he toggle: must make them both really tired. ::doh::

What's wrong with Paul SILENCING both men and women's authentia or SELF-AUTHORING songs and sermons giving the reason as:

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #154 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 09:34:24 »
To get back to the OP on infant baptism, some related questions to Kiwi's post:

1) When the New Covenant is opposed to the Old Covenant, to what does the term "Old Covenent" reference?

2) Can infants be made members of a covenant?






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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #155 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 13:38:18 »
To get back to the OP on infant baptism, some related questions to Kiwi's post:

Thank you! Yes, lets get back on track.


1) When the New Covenant is opposed to the Old Covenant, to what does the term "Old Covenent" reference?

It references the theocracy that God instituted in the Old Testament.


2) Can infants  be made members of a covenant?

Hmm. Good point. This raises a few points. Yes, against their will? I dont know.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #156 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 14:12:31 »
Quote
Thank you! Yes, lets get back on track.


Quote
1) When the New Covenant is opposed to the Old Covenant, to what does the term "Old Covenent" reference?

It references the theocracy that God instituted in the Old Testament.

The Law of Moses?

Quote
2) Can infants  be made members of a covenant?

Hmm. Good point. This raises a few points. Yes, against their will? I dont know.


I think they can be put in covenant without their consent.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #157 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 15:01:09 »
You all should find this interesting:

St Thomas Moore Roman Catholic Church, Bethel Park, PA

PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE BOLDED RED SECTION

The Sacrament of Baptism
Baptism

The Sacrament of Baptism is the first Sacrament of Initiation, often referred to as the “door Sacrament.” It begins our journey of faith in the church. Attendance at a Baptism class is required for first time parents. It provides the couples with a review of the Sacraments and an opportunity to gain knowledge of their responsibility to raise their children in the Catholic faith and how the church will support them on this journey.

The class is offered once a month on the last Sunday of the month at 2pm in the church and parish office. Information is given on the particulars of the Sacrament, selection of sponsors, questions get answered and the couples are taken to the church for a “dry run” and explanation of the ceremony and its symbols.

Baptisms are scheduled on the 1st and 3rd Sundays of the month after the 11:30 A.M. Sunday Mass. (November and December 2015 are exceptions and will have Baptisms on the first and second Sundays of the month.) Sometimes couples are from out of town and have no family around. They may receive permission from Saint Thomas More to have their baby baptized elsewhere. Same is true for out-of-towners who have all their family here. We welcome them back! Exceptions are handled as the need arises.

Parents have a choice of how the child is baptized. Traditional (pouring of water over the child) or Immersion (carried through the water in the font). (Remember it is immersion, not submersion!) Parents are encouraged to call the parish before the child is born to give the necessary information for paper work and to sign up for the class. If the child is already born the same process takes place. Please call the parish office to make the necessary arrangements.

SPONSORS FOR BAPTISM — What is required for a person to serve as a godparent (sponsor)?

The person serving as godparent (sponsor) must meet the following requirements:

Be appointed by the parents or the one serving in their place
Be at least 16 years of age
Be a Catholic who has been confirmed and received the Most Holy Eucharist and who leads a life in harmony with the Church.
If married, be in a valid sacramental marriage.
Not be the father or the mother of the one to be baptized.
May we choose more than two godparents (sponsors) for our baby? May we use two godfathers in place of a godmother?

A maximum of two godparents (sponsors) is allowed for the sacrament of baptism. Only one godparent (sponsor) is required for baptism; however it is customary to have two godparents (sponsors). If two godparents (sponsors) are identified, one must be male and the other female.

May a non-Catholic Christian serve as godparent (sponsor) at a Catholic baptism?

A non-Catholic Christian may only be a witness, together with a Catholic godparent (sponsor), in a Catholic baptism. A former Catholic who now practices another religion may not serve as a Christian Witness nor as a godparent (sponsor). Any questions concerning non-Catholic participation in baptism should be referred to the parish.

If you plan on having your child baptized, please pick up a Baptism Packet at the parish office, or view the baptism resources here:
Tips as You Prepare for Your Child's Baptism
Baptism Rite and Symbols
Godparent Guidelines
Diocese of Pittsburgh's Baptism Handbook for Parents

Adults who have not been Baptized and wish to find our more can find out more from our RCIA program. View their resources here.

And the video of adult baptism on here is odd at best... At least one was fully immersed.

The others????????

https://www.stmpgh.org/rcia/

KiwiChristian

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #158 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 00:37:18 »
You all should find this interesting:

St Thomas Moore Roman Catholic Church, Bethel Park, PA

PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE BOLDED RED SECTION

The Sacrament of Baptism
Baptism

The Sacrament of Baptism is the first Sacrament of Initiation, often referred to as the “door Sacrament.” It begins our journey of faith in the church. Attendance at a Baptism class is required for first time parents. It provides the couples with a review of the Sacraments and an opportunity to gain knowledge of their responsibility to raise their children in the Catholic faith and how the church will support them on this journey.

The class is offered once a month on the last Sunday of the month at 2pm in the church and parish office. Information is given on the particulars of the Sacrament, selection of sponsors, questions get answered and the couples are taken to the church for a “dry run” and explanation of the ceremony and its symbols.

Baptisms are scheduled on the 1st and 3rd Sundays of the month after the 11:30 A.M. Sunday Mass. (November and December 2015 are exceptions and will have Baptisms on the first and second Sundays of the month.) Sometimes couples are from out of town and have no family around. They may receive permission from Saint Thomas More to have their baby baptized elsewhere. Same is true for out-of-towners who have all their family here. We welcome them back! Exceptions are handled as the need arises.

Parents have a choice of how the child is baptized. Traditional (pouring of water over the child) or Immersion (carried through the water in the font). (Remember it is immersion, not submersion!) Parents are encouraged to call the parish before the child is born to give the necessary information for paper work and to sign up for the class. If the child is already born the same process takes place. Please call the parish office to make the necessary arrangements.

SPONSORS FOR BAPTISM — What is required for a person to serve as a godparent (sponsor)?

The person serving as godparent (sponsor) must meet the following requirements:

Be appointed by the parents or the one serving in their place
Be at least 16 years of age
Be a Catholic who has been confirmed and received the Most Holy Eucharist and who leads a life in harmony with the Church.
If married, be in a valid sacramental marriage.
Not be the father or the mother of the one to be baptized.
May we choose more than two godparents (sponsors) for our baby? May we use two godfathers in place of a godmother?

A maximum of two godparents (sponsors) is allowed for the sacrament of baptism. Only one godparent (sponsor) is required for baptism; however it is customary to have two godparents (sponsors). If two godparents (sponsors) are identified, one must be male and the other female.

May a non-Catholic Christian serve as godparent (sponsor) at a Catholic baptism?

A non-Catholic Christian may only be a witness, together with a Catholic godparent (sponsor), in a Catholic baptism. A former Catholic who now practices another religion may not serve as a Christian Witness nor as a godparent (sponsor). Any questions concerning non-Catholic participation in baptism should be referred to the parish.

If you plan on having your child baptized, please pick up a Baptism Packet at the parish office, or view the baptism resources here:
Tips as You Prepare for Your Child's Baptism
Baptism Rite and Symbols
Godparent Guidelines
Diocese of Pittsburgh's Baptism Handbook for Parents

Adults who have not been Baptized and wish to find our more can find out more from our RCIA program. View their resources here.

And the video of adult baptism on here is odd at best... At least one was fully immersed.

The others????????

https://www.stmpgh.org/rcia/

What a ridiculously long list of stupid RULES. I see NOTHING of this in the Bible.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #159 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 10:13:37 »
What a ridiculously long list of stupid RULES. I see NOTHING of this in the Bible.

Ummm. This is the Roman Catholic Church.

They are notorious for adding things that are no biblical, but mandatory for their congregation.

KiwiChristian

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #160 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 13:49:05 »
Ummm. This is the Roman Catholic Church.

They are notorious for adding things that are no biblical, but mandatory for their congregation.

I agree. They add their man-made traditions and make the Word of God of none effect.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #161 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:50:58 »
So is the Old Covenant that opposes the New Covenant the Law of Moses?

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #162 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 12:19:37 »
To get back to the OP on infant baptism, some related questions to Kiwi's post:

1) When the New Covenant is opposed to the Old Covenant, to what does the term "Old Covenent" reference?

2) Can infants be made members of a covenant?

1) Old Covenant can be used:
a. as a synonym for Old Testament
b. to refer to the Abrahamic Covenant
c. The Mosaic Covenant.

2) Yes. of course.

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #163 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 14:19:14 »
IMMERSION. OR BAPTISM IS:

bapt-ismos , ho,
A.dipping in water, immersion, Ev.Marc.7.4, Ep.Hebr.9.10, Antyll. ap. Orib.10.3.9.

BAPTISM A.dip, plunge, of ships, sink , 2. draw wine by dipping the cup in the bowl,
3. baptize, “tina” Ev.Marc.1.4; “en hudati eis metanoian” Ev.Matt.3.11:— dipping IN water INTO the remission of SINS.

bapt-istēs , ou, ho,
A.one that dips: baptizer,

bapt-os , ē, on,
A.dipped, dyed, D.S.5.30; bright-coloured

You cannot DIE a garment without DIPPING it

bapt-os , ē, on,
A.dipped, dyed, D.S.5.30; bright-coloured

Here is the message of God's Holy Spirit to the godly Jews and by His Spirit in Christ in Mark 16.
Blasphemy is despising GOD'S Word by saying that God commanded something He did not Command.
Catholicism is the continuance of the ancient Roman religion where the Pontif Maximus was the Music Leader.

Notice that the FULLER dips garments into a vat and stomps with his feet.  When they are dry they are rubbed with fuller's clay to make the CRIMSON garment as white as snow.  The documents discovered as the Dead Sea Scrolls included much of the Old Testament: The Great Isaiah Scroll was dated to 125 BC so the Enoch could have had a scroll about 175 years old.  The Church or School of Christ is defined inclusively and exclusively in the PROPHETS who refute the Civil-Military-Clergy as the PATTERN to which God has abandoned almost all religionism.  That religion continued to be practiced at Rome and the Catholics confess that they adopted much of their practices from the pagans because THEY WERE COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS.

Watch out for those CRIMSON HATS.






« Last Edit: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 14:24:02 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #164 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 14:44:27 »
Catholicism is the continuance of the ancient Roman religion where the Pontif Maximus was the Music Leader.


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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #165 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 14:46:42 »
That religion continued to be practiced at Rome and the Catholics confess that they adopted much of their practices from the pagans because THEY WERE COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS.


Members of Grace-Centered Message Forum agree to abide by the following rules:

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."]

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #166 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 15:09:12 »
The Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03246a.htm

The word candle (candela, from candeo, to burn)
         was introduced into the English language as an ecclesiastical term, probably as early as the eighth century.

It was known in classical times and denoted any kind of taper in which a wick, not uncommonly made of a strip of papyrus, was encased in wax or animal fat.

We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water,
          were commonly employed in pagan worship and in the rites paid to the dead.
          But the Church from a very early period took them into her service,
          just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves,
          which seemed proper to enhance the splendour of religious ceremonial.

We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc.
           were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular;
           they were common to almost all cults.
           They are, in fact, part of the natural language of mystical expression,
           and such things belong quite as much to secular ceremonial as they do to religion

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #167 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 16:06:24 »
The Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03246a.htm

The word candle (candela, from candeo, to burn)
         was introduced into the English language as an ecclesiastical term, probably as early as the eighth century.

It was known in classical times and denoted any kind of taper in which a wick, not uncommonly made of a strip of papyrus, was encased in wax or animal fat.

We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water,
          were commonly employed in pagan worship and in the rites paid to the dead.
          But the Church from a very early period took them into her service,
          just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves,
          which seemed proper to enhance the splendour of religious ceremonial.

We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc.
           were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular;
           they were common to almost all cults.
           They are, in fact, part of the natural language of mystical expression,
           and such things belong quite as much to secular ceremonial as they do to religion



1. The Catholic Encyclopedia is not an official document of the Catholic Church. Therefore to claim that "Catholics confess" something just because it is in the Catholic Encyclopedia is a lie.

2. Moreover the Catholic Encyclopedia does NOT say that the Catholic Church adopted these things from pagans. It just points out that these things were common to pagan religions. So that is another lie.

These things were more likely to be taken over from Judaism out of which which Christianity grew.

 Candles

Lev 25:31-37 & Rev 1:12-19

Bells

The practice of ringing bells to create a joyful noise for the Lord during the Mass is based to some degree on the use of tintinnabula (or tiny bells) or crotal bells that were a part of ancient Judaic worship.
 (Matthew D. Herrera)
 
Incense was also part of Judaic worship.
On it Aaron shall burn fragrant incense. Morning after morning, when he prepares the lamps, and again in the evening twilight, when he lights the lamps, he shall burn incense. Throughout your generations this shall be the established incense offering before the Lord (Ex 30:7-8)

There is incense in heaven:
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. (Rev 8:3)

Vestments
"And for Aaron's sons you shall make coats and girdles and caps; you shall make them for glory and beauty.” (Ex 28:40) And it was not only Aaron but all the priests who served God.
 
Lustral water
Num 19:9-11
 
Music
Psalm 43:4, 144:9 etc. etc.
 
All these and more come from Judaism

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #168 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 16:29:16 »
It is true that Rome and most churches near you get their pattern from the Jews.  However, because of musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai, God abandoned them to Babylon and Babylonianism. 

Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
        and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
        and rejoiced in the works of their own hands
Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
        and gave them up to worship the HOST of heaven;
        as it is written in the book of the prophets,
        O ye house of Israel,  have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices
        by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Acts 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
        and the star of your god Remphan,
        figures which ye made to worship them:
        and I will carry you away beyond Babylon:

The Levites were an old infant burning priesthood.  Jacob warned NOT to join in the levites "synagogues" nor their covenant.

God didn't command king, kingdom, temple, priests or levites to make noise during the burning of Infants.  After all but the worshipers of Assyrian gods Hezekiah held exorcism for the Nation, kingdom and temple. The Levite noise makers could not enter into the holly place eve to clean out the garbage and the instruments of the Assyrians.




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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #169 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 13:40:12 »
I'm not sure of the reference to the Abrahamic covenant?

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Re: Catholic Infant "Baptism"
« Reply #170 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 18:30:34 »
Quote
1) Old Covenant can be used:
a. as a synonym for Old Testament
b. to refer to the Abrahamic Covenant
c. The Mosaic Covenant.

The Only Spiritual Covenant was made to Abraham by God in Christ.

The Book of THE LAW did not altar that Covenant.
In Genesis 49 Jacob commanded the Israelites NOT to enter into covenant with Levi NOR to attend their synagogues.

When God saved Israel BY grace when they obeyed that did not prevent the now defacto-Egyptians from bringing their abominations with them.

The Book of The Covenant which is Patriarchal or Abrahamic was offered by God but the people refused to HEAR and demanded a mediator.

The Book of The Covenant is in Deut 18 to 23.  There was no priesthood and the elders governed and TAUGHT the people (Ex 18)

The Laws are conditional: Deut 21:32 IF the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

While Moses was on the mountain getting the original tablets and the Covenant the people rose up to PLAY which was musically and with one another (Romans 10)

The original tablets were broken and never restored to their original form.
God gave the The Book of The Law of Moses to control the lawless people until God transshipped them THROUGH Canaan AND back to Babylon.

THE MONARCHY separated the Covenant people from the Civil-Military-Clergy until they were exiled. That invited God to ABANDON the Jews and DESTROYED the Patriarchal leadership of the first-born and replaced it with the KING SET OVER US.

Hos. 13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

The New Covenant is with the HOUSES of Israel and Judah and every which is the LAITY and excludes Priests or Levites.

Paul in Galatians 3 defines that original Abrahamic Covenant where we are the sons of God and Abraham

Gal. 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Notice the parallism

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:27 For [What I mean is] as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Law of Moses or the new laws of the MONARCHY are LEAPFROGGED because they concern an abandoned race.  The godly Jews attended synagogue or The Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness.  They were quarantined on the Babylonish Sabbath as WORSHIP violating the sabbath as REST.  The word REST includes the refreshing as a SKHOLE.