Author Topic: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous  (Read 1049 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 12:49:19 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
________________
 
Church Edifices And Alcoholics
Anonymous

    Consider with me, please: We no more need fancy, elaborate, luxurious church structures to meet in than AA—Alcoholics Anonymous—needs to construct a whimsy, extravagant edifice to meet in.

    In AA meetings there are no paid speakers or professional orators. They mutually share, exchange ideas, encourage each other, and either cry or laugh on each other’s shoulder—the very things we should be doing. But no! We pay big bucks to import a professional to do our ministries by proxy! It ain’t right. Heaven does not condone, nor ever has condoned, this digressive practice.

    If all saints deserted church edifices or idols among us and began to meet in private homes or similar places, as the early believers did, all pulpit ministers would be forced to either find a job or go full-time into evangelism, which would surely be a blessing. For as long as our ecclesiastical orators are tied down to a pulpit, barricaded from us “peasants,” and financially kept afloat, they will never find a job and go to work or get themselves involved in full-time evangelism—that is, taking the message of salvation to the unsaved. 

    We have come a long ways since A. D. 33, but in the wrong direction. If, for the first 200 years, the early saints could set the world on fire without the assistance of church edifices [idols], and they did, why is it so strange to think we cannot do the same?

    Look at AA and how far they have come with their alcohol abuse programs. They own no alcohol edifices or structures and have no budget to underpin. They meet in a communal setting, just anywhere they decide to meet—schools, libraries, homes, fire stations, and other places. 

    Perhaps we should think seriously about changing our direction, thus changing the course of matters to concur with heaven’s early and thriving blueprint.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 20:25:44 by Reformer »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #1 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 13:50:16 »
Buff with all due respect can you not think of something else to write about this is getting old real quick.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #2 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 14:44:49 »
It's his hobby horse.

Offline Alan

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #3 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 17:53:02 »
Buff with all due respect can you not think of something else to write about this is getting old real quick.


He's evangelizing others to share in his anger toward the church, not working though.  ::crackup::

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #3 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 17:53:02 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 20:21:19 »
yogi bear - johntwayne - alan:

    Odd, fellows, that you failed to include the myriads of Calvinistic topics and replies, which appear on Grace Centered, in your list. I'm talking about hundreds of them.

    Another possibility is that you're lacking any candid substance in reply to the principles I submit—such as, Why hasn't Alcoholic Anonymous, as popular as they are, constructed luxurious edifices to meet in?

    And by the way, I have been writing about a diversity of subjects. Check me out. At least you seem to be reading what I write, and I appreciate that gesture.

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 20:28:42 by Reformer »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 20:21:19 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #5 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 20:47:40 »
 ::beatingdeadhorse::

Offline Reformer

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #6 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 20:54:38 »
Texas Conservative's Responses:  ::destroyingcomputer::
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 11:22:53 by Reformer »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #7 on: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 21:56:46 »
yogi bear - johntwayne - alan:

Fellows, here's a little more on the subject at hand.

<><><>

    I think it is proper to affirm that our God got out of the Real Estate business a long time ago. His last piece of “Real Estate” was the Jewish Temple, which was demolished in A. D. 70 by the Roman Army. Today, in this new age, the era of grace, our God desires hearts, not hardware.

    Not one piece of Real Estate hardware was constructed by the early believers for religious purposes. History tells us the first piece of Real Estate or church edifice was erected 200 years after the Christian community was ushered in. Where, then, did the early believers meet? In homes and in public places.

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 22:11:15 by Reformer »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #8 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 05:47:07 »
Where, then, did the early believers meet? In homes and in public places.
SO WHAT???  There is not one word in the NT that speaks to the conditions that are be met by the place where believers meet.  Not one word.  Perhaps that is the model you should be taking with respect to that subject.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #8 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 05:47:07 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #9 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 05:59:47 »
I find it very interesting that you would use the AA meeting as a point of comparison with the congregational meeting. As much as I appreciate the efforts of the AA, I have to point out that it is not really all that effective.  Even though it has helped a lot of alcoholics in their recovery, there have been a lot more that have entered into the program that never see it through.  I know whereof I speak.  I spent too much of my life in that very dark place of the alcoholic. The meeting together for AA is not a good model for the meeting together of the saints of God; it is rather just the opposite; the meeting together of Christians is the model for the meeting together for AA.  And that is precisely what so many AA meetings take place in church buildings.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #10 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 06:40:38 »
Exactly 4WD! With AA you are convicted as an alcoholic for life, whereas with Christ in your life, you can be healed and freed of such bondage. AA meetings are a requirement on your life, church meetings are voluntary for the purposes of edification through Christ.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #11 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 07:09:01 »
AA meetings are a requirement on your life, church meetings are voluntary for the purposes of edification through Christ.
I don't understand what you are saying there.  How are AA meetings a requirement?  And I think that church meetings are a requirement or need to be a requirement.  Those are claim to be Christian, but do not meet together with other Christians, more than likely, are weak in their faith.  But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the meetings are held in homes or in church buildings.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #12 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 07:14:42 »
Speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent

If the above were followed, the OP would have never been written.

To focus on external things and form over function is just absurd. 

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #13 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 07:18:07 »
Speaking of Calvinism, I think Buff was predestined to talk about church buildings being the biggest problem in Christendom every five minutes.   ::tippinghat::

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #14 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 09:52:11 »
I don't understand what you are saying there.  How are AA meetings a requirement? 
For alcoholics, the meetings are a requirement. AA tells it's members that you will never be healed from alcoholism.
Quote
And I think that church meetings are a requirement or need to be a requirement.  Those are claim to be Christian, but do not meet together with other Christians, more than likely, are weak in their faith.
That isn't what I meant, I was referring to church membership being voluntary, yes we should attend for multiple reasons, but it isn't a requirement for our faith and salvation.


It is a bit of a rabbit hole, but I believe AA to be a kind of cultish organization, so comparing AA with the church isn't really getting much of a point across.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #15 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 10:13:29 »
For alcoholics, the meetings are a requirement. AA tells it's members that you will never be healed from alcoholism.
It is not true that one cannot "be healed" from alcoholism, but that is a discussion for another time.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #16 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 11:44:32 »
4WD:

    As respects your Reply #9, I will add that many of my functions as a Psychiatric Aide for 34 years [in addition, of course, to my "pulpit ministries"] revolved around conducting AA meetings. I've never been an alcoholic, but I have worked with and aided alcoholics and drug addicts on numerous occasions.

    And I can comfortably say that, according to the new testament scriptures, the meetings of the early believers were almost identical to today's AA meetings. You noted in Reply #8:

    "There is not one word in the NT that speaks to the conditions that are be met by the place where believers meet. Not one word."

    Come on, brother, get serious. I Corinthians 12 & 14 speak of the very matters you are denying. Furthermore, have you forgotten that, biblically, we are taught by COMMANDS or instructions, by EXAMPLES, and by strong INFERENCES?

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #17 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 11:58:17 »
Texas Conservative:

   "Speaking of Calvinism, I think Buff was predestined to talk about church buildings being the biggest problem in Christendom every five minutes."

    Speaking of church edifices, I think Texas Conservative was predestined to condone them every other response.  ::tippinghat::

Buff

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #18 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 13:03:48 »
4WD:


    "There is not one word in the NT that speaks to the conditions that are be met by the place where believers meet. Not one word."

    Come on, brother, get serious. I Corinthians 12 & 14 speak of the very matters you are denying. Furthermore, have you forgotten that, biblically, we are taught by COMMANDS or instructions, by EXAMPLES, and by strong INFERENCES?
I don't know what you see there, but chapters 12, 13 and 14 are all addressed to the saints, the body of believers, themselves, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the place of meeting. There is no CENI in those chapters with respect to the buildings or places of meeting.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 13:08:33 by 4WD »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #19 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 14:59:26 »
Texas Conservative:

   "Speaking of Calvinism, I think Buff was predestined to talk about church buildings being the biggest problem in Christendom every five minutes."

    Speaking of church edifices, I think Texas Conservative was predestined to condone them every other response.  ::tippinghat::

Buff

I do condone them.  They are just buildings.  Any real problem is with the hearts of those that use any building, including a house.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #20 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 20:28:54 »
4WD:

    Here is what I need to say again in reference to your Reply #18. "Furthermore, have you forgotten that, biblically, we are taught by COMMANDS or instructions, by EXAMPLES, and by strong INFERENCES?"

   By "strong inference," I mean credible deduction or conceivable presumption. You wrote, "There is no CENI in those chapters with respect to the buildings or places of meeting."

    Really? Here is one example among others, "As in all congregations of the saints, the women should keep silent in the assemblies..." [I Cor. 14:33-34]. When Paul issued instructions pertaining to the assembly, the obvious deduction—inference—is that they were inside some structural building located in some place.

Anyway, thanks for your Reply,

Buff

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #21 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 20:40:13 »
Texas Conservative:

    As to your Reply #19, let me say that "buildings" and "church edifices" are not the same issue. It seems you were predestined to condone church edifices.

Goodnight to all,

Buff

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #22 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 22:08:26 »
CENI is an obtuse way to look at scripture.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #23 on: Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 22:33:27 »
From Dictionary.com:

a building , especially one of large size or imposing appearance.


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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #24 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 05:07:11 »
    Really? Here is one example among others, "As in all congregations of the saints, the women should keep silent in the assemblies..." [I Cor. 14:33-34]. When Paul issued instructions pertaining to the assembly, the obvious deduction—inference—is that they were inside some structural building located in some place.
Buff, there is absolutely nothing there that says anything one way or another about any building that they might be meeting in, if in fact they were even meeting in a building.  And there is certainly nothing there that would support your distain for the congregation meeting in a "church" building instead of someone's home.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #25 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 05:09:30 »
From my limited experience with promoters of CENI, it is simply a means or a technique to draw out of a passage of scripture something, anything, that really isn't there.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #26 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 06:27:32 »
Church is "BIG" business in our day, for many, yet NOT for all. It is no secret that I for the most part withdrew from public worship many years ago, NOT because of a single pastor, even though I see evil in that, and it is against scripture, but there may be a place and time for it, so I do not harp on that. I personally left the churches of Judea for doctrinal reasons only, not because of the size of the building folks met in, or even if they met in homes, I refuse to be part of their meetings. My own grandmother met in homes when she was alive, yet I refuse to even met with them, even though I was approach several times by their home groups. 

A church building is not sinful and neither is it condemned, by God~ God's word said nothing pro or con toward this. So WHY should we. I do not judge the building folks chose to worship in, that's very immaterial, since God's word is SILENCE on this~so we should lest we are guilty of throwing out the baby with the dirty water as the old saying goes.

What I do judge is the doctrine folks teach and preach, whether home groups, or a small building, or large, again it IS immaterial.

So Reformer is wasting his time going after WHERE folks worship, or meet to preach and teach and exhort one another. 
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 06:34:50 by RB »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #27 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 06:31:43 »
 
A church building is not sinful and neither is it condemned, by God~ God's word said nothing pro or con toward this. So WHY should we. I do not judge the building folks chose to worship in, that's very immaterial, since God's word is SILENCE on this.

What I do judge is the doctrine folks teach and preach, whether home groups, or a small building, or large, again it IS immaterial.

So Reformer is wasting his time going after WHERE folks worship, or meet to preach and teach and exhort one another.



::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #28 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 13:56:21 »
RB:

    "So Reformer is wasting his time going after WHERE folks worship, or meet to preach and teach and exhort one another."

    Would you then say the early believers wasted their time and ministries for meeting in homes, by the river side, and a few other public enclosures, but never once met in any kind of a man-made church structure built at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars—more or less?

   Let me be as clear as I can. I have never indicated it is wrong to meet in some structure. I have said that our church structures are monuments that testify of our idolatry. A few readers—somehow—understood me as being opposed to meeting in any structure.

    The issue is not whether it’s right or wrong to meet somewhere. That is not what I have been addressing. The issue is whether or not we have built church structures and edifices and set them apart—sanctified them—as holy articles or entities. I say we have. If I’m correct, we are as guilty of idolatry as were the children of Israel who erected Asherah poles as symbols of worship. God told Israel in no uncertain terms:

    “Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved [consecrated] stone in your land to bow down before it” [Lev. 26:1].

    According to history, the first church structure was built in Alexandar, EGYPT about 200 years after the grace era was ushered in. They didn't even exist in seasons of peace, and there were seasons of peace—as opposed to persecution—during those first 200 years.

    Men seem to learn but little from history. Moved with pride, swept with unreasoning fears, in every generation there are those who spend their time and money to erect the same idols and to perpetuate the same errors of their sectarian forefathers. There has never been a human idol erected that did not betray God’s trust and eventually bring disaster to its erectors and their idolatrous followers.
_______

    Before closing this post, I have a question for 4WD. What is your definition of "inference," and do we learn from scripture via that principle of communication?

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 13:59:25 by Reformer »

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #29 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 15:42:43 »
 Buff, with all due respect your rambling is getting old and unscriptural. You have made  many post attacking the church in one manner or another and what few members we have here have already heard all of your disagreements with the church so let this be you last thread on this topic. All of your complaints about the church whether it be preachers, buildings, or whatever, you need to keep within this thread and not start any new ones on such subjects.

That being said the church has to meet someplace and homes do not have to be the only place. People's homes are not big enough for some assemblies and a building just to accompany it is just as good as a house and is not an idol in anyone's mind but yours.

    “Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved [consecrated] stone in your land to bow down before it” [Lev. 26:1].

Does not apply to a building to hold the assembly it is a stretch to find any passage to fit your thought.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #30 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 20:17:08 »
A couple fresh (?) thoughts:

1. the Pnux and
2. the Agora

Ancient cities in the Greek and Roman world contained these two features.  Both were open-air meeting places large enough to accommodate huge crowds of people, and they were available to use for free.  When ancient churches grew beyond the size where a house could, uh...  ::lookaround::  house them... then they typically moved weekly meetings to the Pnux.  Meetings of multiple house-churches were also there.

Where's the modern version of the Pnux?

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #31 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 20:30:49 »
The modern version was  large tents but even they have gone by the way side.

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #32 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 20:37:26 »
yogi bear:

   "Buff, with all due respect your rambling is getting old and unscriptural. You have made many post attacking the church in one manner or another and what few members we have here have already heard all of your disagreements with the church so let this be you last thread on this topic."

    I hear you, yet you added a couple other thoughts of your own on the subject! Should you, too, be ask not to add anything more on the subject? And may I suggest that since RB and a few others have rambled over and over, one post and thread after another, on Calvinism, would it not be best to notify them to cease as you have notified me?

    I'm only trying to see a little consistency here, yogi. Yes, I'm willing to cut back on my threads relating to the "church" topic. Yet I think it would be fairer on your part to apply your suggestion [or demand] to others who have posted far more threads on their favorite subjects than I have posted on "church."

    Perhaps it would be a helpful idea if one of us contacted Lee Wilson about this matter. Tell me what you think, please.

Kindly,

Buff   

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #33 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 20:57:55 »
yogi bear:

    Here are only a few of the threads I have composed over the past few months that do not, or at least very little, relate to the "church" topic. I’m wondering if you might be missing some of the threads I submit.

What In The World Is The Prophet Saying?
A Story Worth Pondering
“Toto, We’re Not In Kansas Anymore”
“He Has Scattered The Proud”
An Evil King & His Wife, Jezebel
My Personal Testimony
An Interesting Question
What Life Should Be All About
My Reflections On Immersion In Water
Did The Devil Know Something He Wasn’t Telling?
Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
The Liberal Lobbyists & Monkeypox
Looking At It From The Inside


I could add more, but these are enough for the moment.

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Church Edifices & Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #34 on: Fri Nov 25, 2022 - 21:52:50 »
Buff perhaps you misunderstood what I asked of you. I did not ask that you not discuss this topic what I asked is if you could just keep remarks on this topic in one thread and not make more of the same.

I did not ask you to not make new topics but to confine a topic to one thread not many. I realize that in posting some if not most threads get derailed but there is no need to make several new threads on the same topic.

My question to you is why do you feel the need to make new threads that deal with what you already started in another why not continue it there?

You said that some ramble over and over about Calvinism but to be honest it is not threads that are started on the topic but are derailed and they cover many topics in which it becomes a debate.

I never said you haven't started threads under differing topics which I know you have and that is no problem we welcome them but one thread per topic is efficient is it not? I really do not understand why this ruffled your feathers as it seems it has but by all means if you feel you need to cry to Lee be my guest.

Just bear in mind Lee's words Rule 2.6 You will not publicly question a moderator's decision or accuse him/her of being biased or dishonest because of a decision. This will result in deletion of your post and possibly cause your account to be banned or suspended. Questioning of a moderator's decision may be done by sending a polite private message to the moderator who made the decision or other moderators.