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Offline Reformer

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Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 10:39:42 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Church-Goers & Partisan Religion

     If you’re a News addict, as I am, you have probably seen the report that a large number of church-goers and religious zealots have “given up the ship” and are no longer supporting and promoting partisan religion. Catholicism is losing more ground than her counterpart, Protestantism, as per the report. The report indicates that many past believers no longer show interest in “Chuchianity,” and that denominations and sects across the country are feeling the pinch—financially and in attendance.
 
    It seems that, in general, sincere believers are not surrendering their allegiance to the God of creation and His Son. Nor are they “losing their faith.” They have begun to think independently and are surrendering their allegiance to the Religious Establishment.
 
    It is obvious that evil throughout the world is intensifying, considering how Satan is “having a hey-day.” Yet in my personal observations, I do not see a general shipwreck of the faith among sincere disciples. The shipwreck involves partisan religion—denominations and sects.
 
    It might be of interest that in 1989, thirty-one years ago, I composed a manuscript under the title, The Religious Establishment, wherein I called attention to this very thing that has become newsworthy today—and the reasons behind it. Below are a few excerpts from that manuscript.
______
 
    At the very outset, I want to announce that unless the Religious Establishment undergoes reform, she is on her way out. Unless she’s redeemed, some future historian will write a history on The Rise and Fall of Western Christianity. For without regeneration, the organized church will self-abort. If suicide be her lot, she will be her own author and finisher.
 
    This sect-ridden system is no longer influential or impressive. She has lost her ability to relate to the human predicament. It was Abraham Lincoln who said, “Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma” <www.quotedb.com/quotes/2140>. Lincoln relied heavily on God but leaned away from the Religious Establishment.
 
    Thomas Jefferson wrote, “The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church.” He spoke negatively of “the atrocious writings of theologians” [Ibid.]. But long before our founding fathers came upon the scene, Martin Luther, the Protestant Crusader, insightfully concluded, “The greatest threat to the cause of Jesus always arises from those who lay claim to being his children” [Ibid.].
 
    Many of our founding fathers looked upon the splintered estate of partisan religion with discontent. Judging from their words, they must have felt that the schismatic plight, the endless rituals, the never-ending symbols, and the clerical jargon of sectarian religion had no meaningful message for a troubled world. If Lincoln could have had his way, he might have advocated reforming “Christianity” in an effort to rid it of excess baggage.
 
    The institutional church’s “cargo” of division has defeated her. Her “backpack” of jargon has resurrected the “Tower of Babel.” And when the world looks upon the mess she has created, they see a jumbled mass of rival productions. It is not surprising, then, when they conclude their world is more glamorous than the world the Religious Establishment promotes. If the Christian movement in 70 A.D. had been as splintered as it is today, the resurrection message—the message of salvation—would have had little impact upon the lost world.
 
    The first believers went forth as a united front, an army of dedicated recruits whose message was elementary, not loaded down with ecclesiastical garbage or encumbered with divisive dispatches. They communicated “Jesus and him crucified.” Instead of trying to get the world into our church structures, let the Good News of the resurrection take believers out of our church structures and into the world.
 
    The “world” is next door, down the street, over the hill, at the supermarket and office, and on the bus and plane. Wherever people are, we will find the “world.” As it is not necessary to be specially trained and schooled to go next door to tell a neighbor about gardening, it is not required that one be specially instructed and educated to tell the same neighbor about the Man who came forth from the grave after three days. <end of Excerpts.>

_____
 
    FREE BOOKS—I have a few dozen copies of The Son of Perdition [Roman Catholicism] I’d like to distribute. If you will send me your Postal Address, I will mail you a few copies, free of any postage.—Buff. 
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:13:42 by Reformer »

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Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 10:39:42 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 11:35:18 »
Very valid points.....

The Religious establishment still serves a purpose for those who want to get that hour a week, out of the way, and then they go about their lives as usual. Generally in none to godly a manner.....

And they ARE all partisan in their religion choices... to the point of arguing there's is the only way.

I simply cannot believe that.

Especially with all the debates on GC here of varied opinions of what a given scripture means....


Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #2 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:44:55 »
I think your analysis is wrong, as is evident by the changing morality of this country.  These folks that have given up on "Churchianity" have also given up on Christianity.

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« Reply #2 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:44:55 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #3 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:43:40 »

Rella:

Well said and correctly expressed. Thank you for your insight. Stay afloat!

Buff

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #3 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 13:43:40 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 14:15:26 »
I think your analysis is wrong, as is evident by the changing morality of this country.  These folks that have given up on "Churchianity" have also given up on Christianity.

I can give you personal insight into this....

I agree the changing morality in this country has most giving up on Churchianity. But not all. But many are not even aware that they, in truth, have given up on Christianity and that is because their churches do not preach or teach what God says....

2 examples from my own life that I have known.....

A man who is from Ohio. Had been in prison for attacking the man he walked in on while the man was doing unspeakable things to the wife and 16 year old daughter.

Then , it was not this that he went to jail on until he tried to get sole custody of the daughter, after the divorce, and then the man who was attacked brought charges with the ex wife AND daughter as witnesses.

Well.. this "partisan" religious believing person is very Roman Catholic. Goes to mass
every Saturday night, Makes appointments to go and say the Rosary to a priest from time to time.... You get the idea....

He is not looking to marry again because he trusts no one and never another woman again... but  would like to get it on with me, if not in person then a rousing session of online .........

He does not relate anything physical as wrong.

THEN

A gentleman (?)  who wrote to me by way of a pen pal site, just this past week.

After I first said I was a Christian and also a Trump supporter we got into how great POTUS is and he also said he was very much a Christian to the point he is in church every Sunday, bar any unforeseen circumstances. He never said and I did not ask which one. He lives north of Dallas.

Then, because he never said I asked if he was married.....

The story I got was he is separated. She currently is living with her mother in AZ.

Then he said he was not looking to change that. He would never marry again.

But shortly after they married in 1983 (Might be off a year) she changed in the  bedroom department from what he had assumed was his perfect mate because of dating and pre wedding playing around and then 9 years ago she moved to a separate bedroom.

He further says that drove him to an affair and she knew about it but refused to divorce as she does not work and wants to be kept.

Her dad died a year ago and she went to stay with the mother this past year but he feels she will be back home sooner or later.

He said he never wants another in person affair but wants the online ones ... (I cynically am thinking he is a cheap skate)

I said no and he has not responded.... thank goodness.

But this is another example of one who is into church but without a clue to what he is wanting is wrong.

And I do blame this on the churches ( Partisam Religions) for not teaching as they should.

They need to get back to the hellfire and brimstone sermons and if they lose most of their congregation at least they will be right with God and so will those congregants who continue to attend.

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« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 14:15:26 »



Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 14:52:45 »
I can give you personal insight into this....

I agree the changing morality in this country has most giving up on Churchianity. But not all. But many are not even aware that they, in truth, have given up on Christianity and that is because their churches do not preach or teach what God says....

2 examples from my own life that I have known.....

A man who is from Ohio. Had been in prison for attacking the man he walked in on while the man was doing unspeakable things to the wife and 16 year old daughter.

Then , it was not this that he went to jail on until he tried to get sole custody of the daughter, after the divorce, and then the man who was attacked brought charges with the ex wife AND daughter as witnesses.

Well.. this "partisan" religious believing person is very Roman Catholic. Goes to mass
every Saturday night, Makes appointments to go and say the Rosary to a priest from time to time.... You get the idea....

He is not looking to marry again because he trusts no one and never another woman again... but  would like to get it on with me, if not in person then a rousing session of online .........

He does not relate anything physical as wrong.

THEN

A gentleman (?)  who wrote to me by way of a pen pal site, just this past week.

After I first said I was a Christian and also a Trump supporter we got into how great POTUS is and he also said he was very much a Christian to the point he is in church every Sunday, bar any unforeseen circumstances. He never said and I did not ask which one. He lives north of Dallas.

Then, because he never said I asked if he was married.....

The story I got was he is separated. She currently is living with her mother in AZ.

Then he said he was not looking to change that. He would never marry again.

But shortly after they married in 1983 (Might be off a year) she changed in the  bedroom department from what he had assumed was his perfect mate because of dating and pre wedding playing around and then 9 years ago she moved to a separate bedroom.

He further says that drove him to an affair and she knew about it but refused to divorce as she does not work and wants to be kept.

Her dad died a year ago and she went to stay with the mother this past year but he feels she will be back home sooner or later.

He said he never wants another in person affair but wants the online ones ... (I cynically am thinking he is a cheap skate)

I said no and he has not responded.... thank goodness.

But this is another example of one who is into church but without a clue to what he is wanting is wrong.

And I do blame this on the churches ( Partisam Religions) for not teaching as they should.

They need to get back to the hellfire and brimstone sermons and if they lose most of their congregation at least they will be right with God and so will those congregants who continue to attend.

If these men are going to big churches where they will never be noticed, in my opinion it really isn't the fault of the church.  They may actually be teaching what is right.  A church can teach 100% truth and have tares in their midst.

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 14:52:45 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #6 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 14:58:07 »
Further comments, the epistles of Paul, Peter, etc were written to the 1st century church because they had divisions, and problems.  They were not united as posited by Buff.

Even Peter and Paul had words over a lack of agreement and the error of Peter in his coddling of those who tried to encumber Jewish traditions on all.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #7 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 15:25:19 »
Texas Conservative:

    It is true there were a few divisive problems within some of the local congregations. But the universal one body of believers in the aggregate were united.

    The “party spirit,” the spirit of divisiveness, was not overly prevalent in the early ekklesia. General unity was the order of the day. Compare their level of unity to our level of disunity today—widespread, comprehensive, generic, and panoramic describes it.

    We could not be more divided if the Lord had commanded it. This “spiritual handicap” did not reign in the early decades of the Christian community.

Buff

Offline Rella

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #8 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 16:40:43 »
If these men are going to big churches where they will never be noticed, in my opinion it really isn't the fault of the church.  They may actually be teaching what is right.  A church can teach 100% truth and have tares in their midst.

That is true, but can well be in smaller churches as well.

But we all know that churches today, as a general rule try to accomodate the people.  Hence the incorporation and acceptance of all
things anti- God from divorce and remarriange for any reason to the acceptance of practicing gays preaching from the pulpit.
From gay marriages as they walk down the center aisle of the church to allowing pedophiles to preach against abortion.

By in large the church of today whether Mega, large or small 300 member ones have issues they turn their backs on.

I did not say all, but I do say most.

And I fault the true understanding of the written word as they try to read alternate meanings between the lines. All with the intent of wanting to appease the people and keep them and their money coming.

I'm the one who had a disagreement with a former minister over something you may call trivial... He certainly did.
One Christmas eve a woman called the children up front and was carefully explaining to the excited and wide eyed children ... who desperately wanted to get home to bed to await Santa... that the Wise Men's camels made it to the manger from the East
in record time because the camels had the ability to travel so very fast, and that is how they did it.

And when I challenged the minister on this by asking how he could permit her to lie to the kids like that when the Wise Men NEVER saw Jesus in the manger....

He replied.

"Yes, I know the Wise Men never saw Jesus in the manger, but HE felt it important to not confuse the people."

And this was not a large church by any means.. at that time I remember less then 400 members of our specific church.

And within 15 years give or take a couple... that specific church, through their parent body was well on the way to accepting and ordaining practicing gays.

YOU cannot preach or teach do as I say but not as I do, especially when the one preaching and teaching sees nothing wrong in their own life styles.

All for the people cause they twisted the way the word was written.

And this is compounded by each denomination believing they are the only ones with any truth.

That division, in itself is problematic. You see it every day right here on GC, but in truth I have felt this embodies more of what a church teaching should be then any I have attended.



 

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« Reply #8 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 16:40:43 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 02:11:33 »
I think Texas Conservative hit the nail on the head--they are not only leaving churches they are leaving Christ. Certainly the creeds of men are a contributing cause, but worldliness is the seed.

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 13:05:53 »

johnwayne:

    I left "Churchianity" decades ago. As a result, I am closer to my Lord than ever. I can speak the same for many others.

    True, Consertative's remark is occasionally on target. But as per my observations through the years, most all who desert "Churchianity" do so because they have adopted independence and freedom in Christ as opposed to partisan slavery.

Buff

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #11 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 13:37:38 »
I think Texas Conservative hit the nail on the head--they are not only leaving churches they are leaving Christ. Certainly the creeds of men are a contributing cause, but worldliness is the seed.

I would argue that those who see the hypocrisy of organized religions and choose to leave them, are not leaving the Christ of the Bible, just the christ taught in these religions. They are walking towards the Christ of the Bible.

Matt. 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

There is certainly a reason the Christ gave this admonition. And I don't believe it was just because of the religious men of HIS Time, but also because of the religious men which come in HIS Name that He warned us all about.

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 13:52:37 »
There is certainly a reason the Christ gave this admonition. And I don't believe it was just because of the religious men of HIS Time, but also because of the religious men which come in HIS Name that He warned us all about.
Yes, absolutely.  Men like you for example.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #13 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 14:15:54 »
johnwayne:

    I left "Churchianity" decades ago. As a result, I am closer to my Lord than ever. I can speak the same for many others.

    True, Consertative's remark is occasionally on target. But as per my observations through the years, most all who desert "Churchianity" do so because they have adopted independence and freedom in Christ as opposed to partisan slavery.

Buff

You left the CofC. And a long time ago.

Most folks leaving churches now are leaving the RCC, or mainline Protestant churches that no longer preach Christ but the doctrines of the world, such as tolerance of sexual sin.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 14:44:22 »
Texas Conservative:

   Let me correct your assertion, brother. I officially abandoned three different churches [sects], which included the A Cappella Church of Christ.

    Additionally, I defected the entire partisan system—Protestantism, Catholicism, and all other sectarian isms.

    My God has children in most sects, including yours, and for decades I have advocated a general reformation. "Come out of her my people" is heaven's cry.

Buff

« Last Edit: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 14:50:45 by Reformer »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 14:56:08 »
Texas Conservative:

   Let me correct your assertion, brother. I officially abandoned three different churches [sects], which included the A Cappella Church of Christ.

    Additionally, I defected the entire partisan system—Protestantism, Catholicism, and all other sectarian isms.

    My God has children in most sects, including yours, and for decades I have advocated a general reformation. "Come out of her my people" is heaven's cry.

Buff

What about your current sect? Is it just you, in your home?  You know nothing of my "sect."

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 16:41:57 »

Texas Conservative:

    I am no longer formally associated with any particular body of believers, whether partisan or non-partisan, although I do attend some of their meetings—not to officially identify with them, but to keep in touch with mainline churches and their doctrines in an effort to share and encourage reformation.

    Too, I have hundreds of like-minded readers with whom I'm in fellowship. You happen to be one of them, even though we are not always in agreement. Simply put, I'm an "independent believer at large."

Buff

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 19:13:56 »
Buff I no longer have a home church have a couple that I attend from time to time.  One because the preacher and I are good friends and all the members of a drug and alcohol recovery ministry attend there and are welcomed.  Where I attend most in a street ministry that has grown from 6 to 400 and is also the drug and alcohol ministry I mentioned.  It meets at 4PM so folks can go to their home church.  I occasionally preach there.  I am on the board and work with a ministry that feeds 30,000 plus a year and is supported by nearly every brand of church in the area. Except the CoC of course.  But yes there are many ways to serve without giving your freedom to. an institutional church

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 21:17:56 »

Johnb:

   Ahhh, quite interesting—the nature of the ministries you allude to. If Jesus were on earth today, I think He might pay those ministries a visit. He ministered daily to the poor, the hurts, the crippled, the lonely, the sick, and the dejected.

    He by-passed the clerics and "die-hard" Jewish leaders except to reprimand them. I'm convinced He would do the same today if He were walking the earth again.

Buff

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Re: Church-Goers & Partisan Religion
« Reply #19 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 22:39:02 »
One of my life long friends the first time I took him to the Bread Shed ( that is where we give boxes of food away a box truck load once a month, do another truck load for children in school that counselors have identified as in danger of not having enough food, a free cooked meal served restaurant style every Sunday and we distribute USDA food boxes to seniors and have planted bread sheds in 3 other towns all done with volunteers no one is paid.  Any way on the way home he said John I think if Jesus was physically walking the earth today I believe on the second Saturday He would be at bread shed. 

 

     
anything