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« on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:07:20 »
According to the January issue of First Things magazine, the COC was the second fastest-growing religous group in the US in the 1990's, measured by percentage growth.  You can check this out on the magazine's web site, under the section marked \"The Public Square.\"

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« on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:07:20 »

Offline kebecer1

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« Reply #1 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:27:18 »
The report that caused quite a stir is the annual report of the Glenmary Missioners Research Institute for 2000--the independent Christian churches and churches of Christ was/were ranked as the second fastest-growing religious group during the 1990's.  
 
The report is accessible here:  

http://www.glenmary.org/grc/RCMS_2000/findings.htm

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« Reply #1 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:27:18 »

Offline charlie

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« Reply #2 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:58:38 »
By the way, that's good news for the Christian Churches! It means they're doing even better than they thought! Maybe we could learn a bit from them.

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« Reply #2 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:58:38 »

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 04:35:18 »
reports of our demise are greatly exagerated, to the consternation of the devil!!  forward to victory!! :thumbup:

dj

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« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 04:35:18 »

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« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:10:27 »
i'm not so convinced that there will be a split, myself
if it's true that most members still around are the older ones, in 20 years they may not be around. instead of a split there may just be a new group of leaders and members who have changed from the faults and/or ideaology of their fathers.

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« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:10:27 »



Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 12:15:09 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 06 2003,08:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Churches of Christ by themselves have actually suffered a loss of membership in the same time period.

Bob's observation, though local and exaggerated to represent the entire group, is not invalid. We are dwindling. [/quote]
then[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, that's good news for the Christian Churches! [/quote]

crisis: suffering \"a loss of membership\"
happy about crisis: \"that's good news\"[/quote]
I think that is out of context.

It is good news for the Christian Churches who as I recall had been losing members at a steady rate.

Their reversing or stopping that trend is not bad news for the churches of Christ and certainly not bad news for the body of Christ.

Being glad that they are getting on better footing is not a celebration of the churches of Christ suffering a loss of members. The two facts exist independently.

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« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 12:15:09 »

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 14:09:18 »
newtome,

I've seen congregations split and new ones form with differing views.  Those occured in a short time frame and are alot of time, IMO, indicative of what is coming in a particular movement.  There was alot of hard feelings in some instances.

History details movement splits (eg: CoC/DoC/CC).  Those occur over a generally extended time frame 20 to 40 years on avg (looking at those particular movements) and the signs of the coming split in the movement are can be seen in the congregational splits that occur before that time.

I personally classify a Christian as one who puts his faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and then tries to live that faith to the best of his ability according to the knowledge he possesses.  IOW, he is a follower of Christ.  I don't personally attach having to have met my criteria for salvation as I understand Scripture to that person's, although I will sure express my understanding of Scripture in Christian love when the door is open to it.

So, in a split, they are still Christians--just with differing views.  The important thing is to remain in fellowship, even though we don't agree and don't worship together in the same location.

Offline baronrlh

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« Reply #7 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 12:09:06 »
I live in Houston Texas.The CoC denomination here is dying out!I hear other parts of the country saying the same thing.
I see the Baptist growing by leaps and bounds.WHY???
Is the devisive nature of the CoC?Is it a poor understanding of Grace?I am not CoC but coC-Just a Christian.I was raised
CoC and dearly love the brothers and sisters but it breaks my
heart to see whats happening.Please comment.Bob Hogue

Offline Bon Voyage

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« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:27:16 »
I think the churches that die spend more time worrying about how the are better than \"the denominations\" then being positive and spreading the gospel.

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« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:27:16 »

Offline s1n4m1n

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« Reply #9 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:31:41 »
Hi,

Here is the numbers from the Glenmary Research Center.

Church Statistics

Maybe some areas are growing by leaps and bounds and other areas are suffering a drought. Whatever the case the \"churches of Christ\" are a small drop in the bucket compared to the larger world of Christianity.

Agape,

Ken

Offline charlie

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« Reply #10 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:57:00 »
A couple months ago, the Christian Chronicle corrected one of its own previous articles. The first article announced that the Churches of Christ were growing similar to the amount stated earlier (second fastest in the 90's), but the corrected article stated that the first data included the Independent Christian Churches. The Churches of Christ by themselves have actually suffered a loss of membership in the same time period.

Bob's observation, though local and exaggerated to represent the entire group, is not invalid. We are dwindling.

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #11 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 02:52:32 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]JB wrote:
I think the churches that die spend more time worrying about how they are better than \"the denominations\" then being positive and spreading the gospel.[/quote]
I agree, Jerry. Aside from the ever growing dogma, and the continual division and fractioning, lack of evangelism is a huge culprit. I believe that the reasons for this are manifold, and have much to do with the message that is being preached.

I no longer identify myself with the Church of Christ church (I suppose that makes me part of the problem... Or maybe, part of the solution?). I am a Christian... And the group that I meet with does not have a formal name. We are just a group of Christians, each individually belonging to the body of Christ. (I know that many others would also make some of these same types of acknowledgments, but I am only speaking for myself).

Many in Church of Christ churches today are generational Churchers. They were \"born and raised in the Church\", and that is why they are part of the membership statistics. Not many are added by outside evangelism, nor by addition from other denominations.

Indeed, some believe in \"evangelism by procreation\" alone... Knowing that it is much easier to teach a child, than it is someone that has already formulated their own beliefs and opinions.

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #12 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:51:14 »
newtome,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]instead of a split there may just be a new group of leaders and members who have changed from the faults and/or ideaology of their fathers.[/quote]

That would indeed be the ideal but I don't think that is what we are seeing at present.  There has been a pulling away from those churches and church members that are identified as being part of the grace-centered movement in the CoC by those of the \"zealot\" classification that Joe Beam talks about in one of his articles.  The public marking that is going on from the zealot side of those on the other side by our very hard line newsletters/magazines/pulpit ministers is already having a visible effect on this.  Whether it becomes a total name differenciation of not remains to be seen, but it seems to be already started -IMO- and seems to be slowly gaining momentem.

I have strong roots in the CoC (SOF) and I personally whould not like to see us split to the point that we quit being associated with the CoC, but I just don't see anyway out of it at this point.  Maybe I'll change my views in the future as future events come to pass, but right now, IMO, there will be a major split, probably in my lifetime--and I'm 54 years old.

Time for work.  I'll check back in from work in a little while if time permits.

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #13 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 12:30:25 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (WileyClarkson @ Feb. 06 2003,08:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]IMO--the CoC's that are growing are the ones that are grace centered churches--having moved away from the extreme legalism and sectarianism that has existed over the last 50 years in the CoC.  One thing I have noticed is a change in the way these churches are starting to view their relationship to the CoC (SOF) with some changing their names to reflect that view--some changing to Family of God, Followers of Christ, etc and using (in small print) \"a church of Christ\".[/quote]
I think that is very true. We have several congregations that would be deemed to be conservative by most here in that they remain firmly acapella, don't clap, don't raise hands, don't use testimonies, shy away from cooperative spending efforts, and may or may not have the \"extra\" buildings.

But they are also congregations that are accepting and do a decent job of outreach and are more grace-centered than most of us grew up with and they are growing. They have also been a blessing to our church plant. They keep us apprised of special events coming and we promote them to our members, one has allowed us to use their building for baptisms (we can't afford to build a permanent baptistry right now), they have just been very inclusive of our efforts and they happen to be the three congregations that have lost the most members to us. One minister has told me that he prays for our plant because with our contemporary service we can meet some needs and desires that they cannot.

These are established congregations that grow, its slow growth but it is not a growth fueled solely because the members have been fruitful and multiplied.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think this is a signal of a pending major split in the CoC (SOF) some time in the next 10 to 20 years based in hermenuetics of several issues, principly grace vrs legalism.  I think that will start being seen in the next census and that will reflect in even lower numbers in CoC (SOF) membership.[/quote]

I don't think a split is imminent. The ingredients are certainly present but I think it is avoidable. Now we may not be reflected in a future census because of the signs we put out front but for the most part the g-c churches that may not have of CofC sign out front aren't turning away from the heritage. They are still sending folks to Tulsa, Streams, Woodmont, Pepperdine and such to interact with those still displaying the CofC sign out front. They are reading New Wineskins and the latest offerings from Rubel Shelly, Mike Cope, and Max Lucado.

Despite the difference in signs and congregational names I don't see a major push to leave behind the heritage for a fresh start.

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« Reply #14 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 13:45:28 »
thanks for the clarification charlie!
didn't mean to take ya out of context, there!
 i just noted what trois might have been referring to in his post
 i think \"his\" that is :wave:

wiley, i'm curious. how does a split really occur? is it just the flocking of individuals out of one building into another, possibly with a new SOF?
is it really a \"split\" or do people just stop attending the church they're at? i've seen elders argue - some left, all resigned.
is split just people in dif. buildings who resent each other?
and would both sides still be Christians saved by grace?
bunch of questions there i guess. just trying to figure out if a split is really a split i guess.
thanks for your wisdom here! :thumbs-up:

Offline janine

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« Reply #15 on: Sun Feb 09, 2003 - 08:34:13 »
When my Mike scanned a page of these posts, as he used the computer to set up an audio sermon  (Jeff Walling, I think?), he saw Wiley's initial post, and his mentions of \"CoC (SOF)'s\", meaning \"churches of christ {labeled as such by the sign out front}\".

Mike thought it a reference to Soldier of Fortune Magazine.  I laughed.  Then I thought about some ways it was just too true... :lookaround:

Ah, well.

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« Reply #16 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 12:47:40 »
hmmm
the churches near me are growing.
 ???

Offline ranger

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« Reply #17 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:32:18 »
I find it surprising the First Things references the C of C as the second fastest growing church (statisitically). I can find no supporting data for this claim.  The stats do not seem to support this . ???

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« Reply #18 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:50:24 »
In that report where it said C of C was the second fastest growing, the actual category was something like \"Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ\" but what it meant was \"Independent Christian Churches/instrumental Churches of Christ\" because later, much further down the list, was the category of \"Churches of Christ - non instrumental\" which included the majority of what we consider Churches of Christ. At least that's what I heard.

Wendy

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« Reply #19 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 22:47:31 »
Trois,

I don't sense much happiness over the statistics. From what I can tell it seems like people are wondering what can be done to stem the tide of decline in numbers.

Agape,

Ken

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« Reply #20 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:06:15 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Churches of Christ by themselves have actually suffered a loss of membership in the same time period.

Bob's observation, though local and exaggerated to represent the entire group, is not invalid. We are dwindling. [/quote]
then[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, that's good news for the Christian Churches! [/quote]

crisis: suffering \"a loss of membership\"
happy about crisis: \"that's good news\"

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #21 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:06:37 »
I've been tied up in another thread and haven't had time to comment on this.  These are my views only :D

The church of Christ (universal) is growing  :clap:

The Church of Christ (SOF) (where my family has its roots) is not :cry:

There are more Chirstians (church of Christ) in the world to day than at any other time in history. :clap: However, there are less members of the Church of Christ (SOF) now than at the last census. :cry:

I live in rural N. Cen. Texas.  In my area, the small town churches for the most part are static or loosing members.  They do not actively evangelize communities, prefering to grow by members of other CoC's moving in to the community, child baptisms, etc.  The only evangelism is from the pulpit, and that is not evangelism IMO.  The average age in upper senior citizen bracket!  There is little or no outreach occuring in these small communities.  They also tend to be on the extreme end of legalism.  The parents of children in school for the most part are taking their children to the SBC's and Assemblies of God in this area because they, especially the SBC in the town I live outside of, have outreach programs to the communities and are actively working on kid's/teen's programs.  Some are choosing non-denom's/independents with kids in the congregations.  

IMO--the CoC's that are growing are the ones that are grace centered churches--having moved away from the extreme legalism and sectarianism that has existed over the last 50 years in the CoC.  One thing I have noticed is a change in the way these churches are starting to view their relationship to the CoC (SOF) with some changing their names to reflect that view--some changing to Family of God, Followers of Christ, etc and using (in small print) \"a church of Christ\".

I think this is a signal of a pending major split in the CoC (SOF) some time in the next 10 to 20 years based in hermenuetics of several issues, principly grace vrs legalism.  I think that will start being seen in the next census and that will reflect in even lower numbers in CoC (SOF) membership.

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« Reply #22 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:51:57 »
I agree with Wileys post.  The more legalistic churches seem to be the ones dwindling.  In my past dealing with the legalists, we were involved in a \"brotherhood\" of about 15 churches at one point.  Then after several splits, the number of churches is now 5 that are still \"in the right\".  I now attend a grace-centered church of Christ and it is growing (internally and evangelically) by leaps and bounds.  

I also agree with newtome's 'foresight' in that I think most of the older generation that holds to their legalistic views will not be around in 10 to 20 years so that a more grace-centered leadership will emerge.  Whichever way it goes, it will be interesting to see it play out.  

Brandt

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« Reply #23 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 13:06:53 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 06 2003,09:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Churches of Christ by themselves have actually suffered a loss of membership in the same time period.

Bob's observation, though local and exaggerated to represent the entire group, is not invalid. We are dwindling. [/quote]
then[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]By the way, that's good news for the Christian Churches! [/quote]

crisis: suffering \"a loss of membership\"
happy about crisis: \"that's good news\"[/quote]
I originally wasn't going to respond to this, but since others have tried to defend me, I thought I might as well explain my words better.

My communication skills are not what they should be. I am sorry for any harm I may have caused. I tend to forget that you can't hear my words, but can only read them. Anyway...

I assumed that in the original survey, the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ were grouped together to show an 18% increase in membership. I further assumed that, if just the Churches of Christ, who experienced a 2% loss, were removed from the combined category, that the Christian Churches alone would have been shown to have an even greater increase than 18%. Hence \"good news for the Christian Churches\".

If you read my full quote, I think I said it was good news because it means \"they did even better than they thought.\"

By the way, my assumption was wrong. The category of Christian Churches/Churches of Christ does not include non-instrumental Churches of Christ. So they still have an 18% increase. Still, that's very impressive!

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« Reply #24 on: Fri Feb 07, 2003 - 12:37:50 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Wasn't that the whole point of the \"Restoration Movement\"?... And isn't that why the term \"undenominational\" was coined?...  [/quote]

When I say it is unhealthy for us to undefine ourselves I mean that we mustn't ignore our history as if it doesn't exist. :thumbup:

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« Reply #25 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:00:47 »
They mostly seem to be doing fine in the Little Rock area but we have a number of active congregations that work hard to not be Sunday/Wednesday Christians.

It isn't a worship style issue because we have a couple congregations that I can't picture ever being \"contemporary\" that are growing but they are very proactive in using small groups and studies based either by personal interest or need (men, women, divorce, addiction, etc) or just small general groups.

I think you will find that active, committed Christians can be quite contagious given a chance to grow and bloom.

Offline Rocketman

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« Reply #26 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 13:39:49 »
Unless I'm mistaken, the Christian Chronicle came out with an article later that said those growth numbers were wrong.  I do think that those growth figures even ran in an AP news story but were later acknowledged as incorrect for us.

I know some growing, some staying the same.  I still think there will be yet another division within cofc between those generally grace centered and those who claim they \"seek the old paths.\"

Offline s1n4m1n

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« Reply #27 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 14:35:55 »
Hi,

I was working on my previous post when kebecer1 was working on his. I think the statistics show a small drop in the size of the \"Churches of Christ\" catagory.

I'm not sure what the First Things articles says because I can't access any link to the Public Square article.

Agape,

Ken

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« Reply #28 on: Wed Feb 05, 2003 - 19:57:28 »
It saddens me that many of us seem happy about our present crisis. Seems like a whole lotta self hate. :(

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« Reply #29 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 13:28:56 »
arkstfan,

I don't believe those who are moving forward in new directions are giving up their heritage or have any desire to give it up. I sure don't!  However, I do believe that the split is slowly occuring and in the early stages.  I will become more \"visible\" over the next 20 years or so.  I don't think it will be a sudden thing that just wham--there it is.  Even the major split that occured in the late 1800's in the RM between the instrumental/non-instrumental took a while to build and take place.  However, we eventually saw the split gel into two different parts, and each part has eventually split one or more times.  All of the splits still claim heritage in the RM.  It's just that some parts don't recognize other parts that claim the same roots. :(  That's a terribly sad thing to me!

Is it avoidable?  I pray it is!  Do I believe it is avoidable?  No.  If the verbal and printed attacks from the legalistic side continue on those who accept a more grace oriented view continue, then it is a very good sign, IMO, that the legalistic side will just keep pulling away from those of us in the GC side who want to remain in fellowship with all sides of the RM.  That will eventually constitute a split, whether we want it or not.  We will continue to claim heritage in the CoC and the RM but they, IMO, will not recognize us at some point in the future.  The church I left a couple of years ago will not hardly recognize anyone that doesn't think just like they think.  The young minister there is already known for preaching against a number of the ministers and elders who are in the GC side of the church of Christ.  I still have a number of friends in that congregation who keep me appraised of what is happening.

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #30 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 14:21:46 »
Honestly I think that the legalists preaching the plan of salvation rather than the man of salvation have been in a split mode for decades. They have constantly found fewer and fewer congregations that they consider to be in the brotherhood as they find fault after fault.  They aren't just splitting from the mainstream but from each other!

With some exceptions that prove the rule, these tend to be smaller congregations, they aren't growing and tend to have older membership. I am reminded of one that cannot be any larger today than it was 25 years ago and is probably down a few members since then, even worse the area population has increased yet they aren't even getting the natural growth that comes with population increases. They remain constantly agitated by a neighboring g-c congregation that has more than tripled in size over the same period growing faster than the area population.

The legalists will always have a devoted core but they are starting to shrink and will become less and less visible.

Their attack bells will be heard by fewer people. I know for a fact that four of our members came to us as a direct result of the write-up about our congregation I posted here some time ago. I doubt it cost us any membership since someone who would be swayed by those arguments would have been unlikely to have wanted to be at our church in the first place.

I suspect that you will even see some blended legalism emerge as the CEO type elders push to make the cosmetic changes of g-c in order to jump on the growth trend.

The last battleground will be the preaching colleges. A school unable to place graduates in decent sized congregations in desireable locations will struggle or change.

But I really think the legalists are moving to the sidelines because their weapons of choice are to break contact and to undertake the written broadside attack. Breaking contact makes you irrelevant because you cannot influence the person you will not fellowship. The written broadside paints you into the corner of appearing to be a cultic fringe on the margins denying you the community respect that leads to growth.

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #31 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 08:51:09 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Trois @ Feb. 05 2003,6:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It saddens me that many of us seem happy about our present crisis. Seems like a whole lotta self hate. :([/quote]
Are you referring to a post here because I can't find one that fits that description.

Offline Trois

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« Reply #32 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 09:09:50 »
Arkstfan,

It's not one post necessarily, but a pervasive attitude that seems to permeate many of the posts.  Not only the posts, but as I talk to many in the church, especially in my own generation. You know me, Ark, I'm not exactly a hooray for the COC guy all the time either. I just think it's unhealthy for us to totally undefine ourselves. (more later) gotta go! :noddingsmiley:

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #33 on: Thu Feb 06, 2003 - 11:53:00 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Trois wrote:
I just think it's unhealthy for us to totally undefine ourselves.[/quote]
Wasn't that the whole point of the \"Restoration Movement\"?... And isn't that why the term \"undenominational\" was coined?...

 

     
anything