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Author Topic: Cornelius  (Read 6800 times)

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Offline yogi bear

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #105 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 10:31:33 »
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Those assumptions are, in part at least, what generate all the controversy about the conversion process.  Those assumptions, in some measure, are at the heart of such things as faith alone versus baptism for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Again with the subdividing.  OY! That is not subdivided in scripture. It is taken as a whole.

That need to subdivide is what has led to centuries of animus between camps. (one source of it anyway)

Don't be so needy for an answer; but let the question draw you closer to God.

i.e, leave it as a question.

Subdivide??  Dave, it is not a matter of subdividing.  The two are just plain different.  One is red the other is green. And those are not the same.  That question is probalby one of the most fundamental in all Christendom.  It was the question which started the whole thing going:
Act 2:37  ... "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Unless you can answer that question properly, everything else is moot.
Amen lets get an answer to that question boys lets put our heads together surely we can get the answer

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #105 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 10:31:33 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #106 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 10:33:40 »
The answer given by Peter was this:

"Repent.  Be baptized. Receive the Holy Spirit. " Acts 2.38

It was given as a package deal. So can you say that if you repent but are not baptized you are saved or not? or if you get baptized but have not received the Holy Spirit you are saved or not?  

Before you do all that you are not saved.  
After you finish the entire process you ARE saved.

There are other passages that include other steps like calling on the name of the Lord, believing the gospel, confessing sins, confessing HIM as Lord, belief in the resurrection, etc.

There is no pulling this step or that step out of the process and saying whether or not it is salvic.

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #106 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 10:33:40 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #107 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 10:36:43 »
But yet that is what most want to do the divorce the baptism in water

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #107 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 10:36:43 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #108 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:04:11 »
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You will certainly get a lot of push back on that from many who post here.
I know that.  BTDT GTSTPI

But that is just the thing.  The church world has been so steeped in a western modernisitic mindset for so long that to try to take it back to something approximating the original mindset sounds heretical.

But in that process a lot of the dividing factors (both in doctrine and practice) go away.

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #108 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:04:11 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Gomer

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #109 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:22:19 »
Why are you so hung up on which exact verse he was saved at? At 10.34 he was not and by the end of 10.48 he was.

Is that not good enough?

There is a lot of debate as to how Cornelius was saved.  Just trying to pinpoint as to when/how Cornelius was saved to eliminate all the false ideas.

You picked verses 34 through 48.  What happened and where in those verses that  Cornelius  gained salvation?

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #109 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:22:19 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #110 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:33:10 »
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What happened and where in those verses that  Cornelius  gained salvation?
::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh::

I thought I made it clear that it was UNWISE to try to determine WHERE in that process it happened.

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #110 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:33:10 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #111 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 11:45:02 »
Quote from: Jimmy

1 Cor 12:13  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


This verse would be a reference to the Corinthians having been born again per Christ's words of Jn 3:5.


Jn 3:5-------------Spirit+++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------Spirit+++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body


Being 'in the kingdom' and 'in the body' are equivalent terms, they both represent a saved position.  Since there is but only one way to be saved, then both verses must express the same idea.  Spirit is equivalent to spirit and water is equivalent to baptized.  So 1 Cor 12:13 is a reference to the water baptism of the new birth.



1 Cor 1:14, 16 "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius.....And I baptized also the household of Stephanas..."

Paul baptized some of the Corinthians himself.  Only God can administer baptism with the HS.  In Acts 2 and Acts 10 God baptized the apostles and Cornelius directly without intervention of humans hands.  Therefore Paul could only administer water baptism to the Corinthians.  Paul, like all disciples, was under the great commission, Mt 28:19,20, Mk 16:15,16, which is disciple (human) administered water baptism, the same baptism Paul administered to some of the Corinthians himself.  1 Cor 1:14,16 is water baptism of the great commission.  If 1 Cor 12;13 is some kind of spirit baptism that that is two baptisms and not one baptism per Eph 4:5.


1 Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

This washing would be a reference to the Corinthians having been water baptized and having those sins washed away by the blood of Christ.  No verse in the NT says baptism with the Holy Spirit washes away sins.

Lastly, Jn 4:1,2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"

Verse 1 says Jesus baptized yet verse two says He baptized not. This is not a contradiction for Jesus did not baptize anyone Himself personally, but He baptized by giving His authority to baptize to His disciples.  Likewise the Holy Spirit baptizes the same way.  The HS does not baptize anyone personally Himself, but baptized by giving authority through His word to the disciples to baptize.  The HS baptized the Corinthians by giving Paul the authority to water baptism them.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #112 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 12:04:07 »
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What happened and where in those verses that  Cornelius  gained salvation?
::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh::

I thought I made it clear that it was UNWISE to try to determine WHERE in that process it happened.

It is never unwise to try and learn something from the bible, especially when it has to do with salvation.

It could be that some people do not really have a desire to learn how Cornelius was saved for how he was saved may not fit their theology.

It can be determined from the context of Acts 10 as to how Cornelius would be saved else Peter failed in his mission to tell Cornelius words whereby he shall be saved.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #113 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 17:48:50 »
 ::reading:: ::prayinghard:: ::eatingpopcorn:

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #113 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 17:48:50 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #114 on: Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 18:22:52 »
Sorry Gomer...


God's power is in His Word,

Just like God's Life is in Jesus, not the tree of Life

God's power to wash and cleanse is His Word not in water

The power of Baptism resides in the Word of God and not in a pool of water

Faith comes by hearing the Word

We are sanctified by the Word

We are washed by the Word

Cleansed by the Word

The Word is the means by which a believer is converted and baptized into the Body of Christ  ::reading::

Offline pointmade

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #115 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 05:14:39 »
gospel: "God's power to wash and cleanse is His Word not in water."

One who knew the Word put it this way to Saul of Tarsus: Why tarries thou?
arise and be baptized and WASH away your sins." ( Acts 22:16).

Water seems to be your hang up...you cannot comprehend what water has to do with salvation.
You are a modern day Nicodemus..."How can these things be?"
You are hung up on Augustine's doctrine of salvation that Salvation is wholly of God.

I read on another post of yours that God is "speaking to you."
Wonderful! next time you have a chat, ask God why Saul of Tarsus was not baptized with the Holy Spirit
as you claim......





Offline DaveW

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #116 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 05:23:54 »
It is never unwise to try and learn something from the bible, especially when it has to do with salvation.
In general I agree with that, but if you try to divide down to the individual steps, you end up adding to scripture.  If the bible itself does not flat out say that at step b or step c or step q is when salvation occurs, we should not try to force a definition of that when one is not there.

THAT is what I am calling "unwise."

I see nothing that defines specifically when Cornelius was saved so to say otherwise is going extra-scriptural IMO.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #117 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 06:37:08 »
DaveW: "I see nothing that defines specifically when Cornelius was saved so to say otherwise is going extra-scriptural IMO."

Dave...just where do you believe salvation occurs?
I ask this due to the teachings of Augustine and Calvin's theology of "Election"?


Offline DaveW

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #118 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 08:57:44 »
My position on salvation is somewhat unique - especially on these boards.

I believe in salvation by covenant.  To cut a covenant with the Lord, many steps are included in scripture which I have listed above, and in addition is a mental agreement with or acceptance of the New Covenant.

I will not define any point between first hearing the Good News and finishing all those steps as where salvation occurs.  To me that all is a "black box" unsaved goes in and saved comes out. If you are still in the middle of those steps to me your condition is undefined.

ETA:

As to Augustine and Calvin, I have very little use for Augustine period.  He stated that he was a student of Aristotle, and as such moved the church into using Greek logic for understanding scripture, a grave mistake in my opinion.

Calvin and Arminius both built on that and ended up in vastly different understandings of election (among other things) and I cannot help but think they both are right to a degree but that means that both are ultimately wrong.
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 09:23:51 by DaveW »

Offline Glorious

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #119 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 11:51:05 »
I see nothing that defines specifically when Cornelius was saved so to say otherwise is going extra-scriptural IMO.

I agree that the passages concerning Cornelius never say specifically when he was saved.  However, there are sufficient other passages in Scripture to conclude that he was saved when he was baptised (Acts 10:48).

Acts 10:48 declares: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

What other scriptures suggest a conclusion that Cornelius was saved when he was baptised per Peter's command?

Just curious!


Offline pointmade

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #120 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 12:09:11 »
Glorious: "Acts 10:48 declares: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

What other scriptures suggest a conclusion that Cornelius was saved when he was baptised per Peter's command?

Just curious!

Yes...that statemen cuts through the chase....
Jesus said, if you love me you will keep my commandments.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #121 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 12:52:32 »
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:44-48 (KJV)

Notice in the wording there that the baptism in the name of the Lord is in water and where else did we see this same command?? Try looking at Acts 2:38 when the church began.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.  Acts 2:37-41 (KJV)

Cornelius sent for Peter to be told what he must do to be saved and was told the same thing the 3,000 sould that were added on the beginning of the church were told. See the connection??

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #122 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 12:53:30 »
The two put together shows beyond doubt that the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is indeed in water.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Cornelius
« Reply #123 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 13:27:14 »
There is no doubt in any regular christian group that Chirstian baptism (Father Son Holy Spirit) is a water baptism.

Indeed, every use of the word unless SPECIFICALLY modified is in water.

All in all there are 6 baptisms that I have found:

John's baptism
Christian water baptism
Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Baptism in fire
Baptism of suffering
Baptism into the body

 

     
anything