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« on: November 03, 2009, 10:11:58 AM »


REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
________________________ _______________
 D E M O N S
Wicked Men or Fallen Angels?
[Part 2]
 
    In 1851 our dearly departed Alexander Campbell, in his Millennial Harbinger, issued a series of 10 essays on The Spiritual Universe.  As with his other writings, they were brilliantly written.  If any of you entertain doubts of there being a spiritual universe, consisting of both good and evil spirits, I would encourage you to review these 10 essays.

    As referenced in our previous communication on this subject, brother Campbell adopted the position that demons are the spirits of evil men, now deceased, and that they are part of that spiritual universe—that unseen cosmic dimension—roaming to and fro throughout to play havoc, to victimize, and to wreck the lives of as many as demonly possible.

    While Campbell was so very correct on a host of issues, and one of the most gifted writers of his day, I find his viewpoint on this subject lacking divine confirmation.  My research in this field, not only from Campbell’s pen but from the insight of others, leads me to conclude there is no celestial testimony that validates the proposition that demons are disembodied spirits of wicked men.  For if demons are the spirits of evil men, Satan, the prince of demons, must also be the spirit of some evil person—a mighty leader in the demoniac community.

    The difficulty with this scene, as pointed out in Part 1, is that no evil man had died prior to Satan appearing in the Garden.  Who, then, is this Satan?  The scriptures indicate rather robustly that he is a disobedient, prideful, rebellious angel who failed to keep his heavenly position of authority and abandoned his own home.  “And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home...” (Jude, v. 6).  “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to tartarus [place of containment or place for future punishment], putting them in gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...”  (2 Peter 2:4).  They are restrained, their powers are limited, but they still constitute the forces of evil—loose, but restricted.

    Even Campbell affirmed that Satan is a fallen angel, and that he still roams the universe deceiving and influencing.  The Spirit’s witness approves the truth that Satan is “like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour”  (1 Peter 5:8).  And Peter says that God did not spare these wicked angels, but sent them to tartarus—a holding station, a prison.  Such does not infer that these wicked angels are without freedom.  Their actions are suppressed, limited, just as Satan’s are.  Our good brother Campbell said as much on page 635 of his 1851 edition:

    “These are fallen angels.  Of these the Devil, or Satan, is the head.  They are, indeed, confined within certain limits, and are said to be ‘reserved in everlasting chains unto the judgment of the great day.’  These have ‘left their own habitation,’ and are beyond recovery.”

    Prisoners in our penal institutions are not totally without freedom.  Many crimes are committed by them while they are bound in a place of containment.  And so it seems to be with fallen angels who are placed in “gloomy dungeons”  (2 Peter 2:4).  Campbell referred to the book of Revelation, chapter 12, and remarked that, indeed, there was war in heaven.  The dragon, Satan, lost the war and his place of authority, and was cast down to the earth.  It is doubtful that this bit of scripture alludes to the rebellion that took place in heaven, when an archangel of great authority and his cohorts were cast out of their heavenly abode.  Rather, I think it communicates Satan’s attempt to abolish the Christian movement from the earth when he used pagan Rome as his weapon.

    Satan’s army consists of demons or fallen angels, and these evil spirits will persist in their wicked pursuits, exerting their diabolical devices upon apathetic men and women until time shall be no more.  In contrast, the forces of good, led by the King of kings, will continue their holy efforts to sway men and women until time shall be no more. 

    I am convinced that the departed spirits of the wicked dead hold no control over our behavior and over our decisions.  Their lot has been cast in the gloomy dungeons of condemnation.  They can no longer rebel, swindle, lie, victimize, deceive, or scoff at celestial beings, for they were “destined to die once, and after that to face judgment”  (Hebrews 9:27).  “Judgment” does not entail freedom to roam and romp throughout the universe in search of people to ensnare.  It means, “That’s it!  You’ve had it!  Sentence is now declared!”
       
    [Look for Part 3 in a few days.  Do evil spirits literally possess people today, as they did 2000 years ago? Let’s try to find out.]
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« on: November 03, 2009, 10:11:58 AM »

 
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 12:43:21 PM »

    [Look for Part 3 in a few days.  Do evil spirits literally possess people today, as they did 2000 years ago? Let’s try to find out.]



I'm anxious to read this.  Should be interesting.
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 12:43:21 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 12:59:28 PM »

    [Look for Part 3 in a few days.  Do evil spirits literally possess people today, as they did 2000 years ago? Let’s try to find out.]



I'm anxious to read this.  Should be interesting.

Thank you, CiscoKid.

Buff
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 03:32:52 PM »

A lot hinges on how you define spirit.  Given that the word spirit means breath, I read that a spirit must proceed from some other entity.

God has a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit of God proceeds from the Father (and the Son, depending on your creed). 

People have spirits, and in my reading of the Bible, they seem to describe a man's internal state.

So if Demons are Unclean Spirits, where or who do they proceed from?

================

On the other hand, fallen angels are something the Bible talks about.

No doubt Paul has a "messenger of Satan."  And no doubt there are "angels that left their first estate."

But, does the Bible ever call fallen angels "demons" ??  I can't find that there.  Help me look?

I think, perhaps, that the word "demon" has been misapplied to indicate something that the Bible calls "fallen angel."

Perhaps, Demon is not the opposite of Angel.

Jarrod
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 05:03:28 PM »


So if Demons are Unclean Spirits, where or who do they proceed from?

But, does the Bible ever call fallen angels "demons" ??  I can't find that there.  Help me look?


Perhaps, Demon is not the opposite of Angel.

Jarrod

   Jarod, go back and read Part 1, which I posted a few days ago.  It should answer most of your concerns.
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 07:25:00 PM »

So if Demons are Unclean Spirits, where or who do they proceed from?

But, does the Bible ever call fallen angels "demons" ??  I can't find that there.  Help me look?


Perhaps, Demon is not the opposite of Angel.

Jarrod

   Jarod, go back and read Part 1, which I posted a few days ago.  It should answer most of your concerns.
Howdy,

I both read and commented on part 1.  But just for good measure I went back and re-read it at your suggestion.

Sorry, but I didn't really get anything new out of it.  You make a good case there that demons are not the spirits of wicked men.  But you don't make a case, really at all, that demons are fallen angels.

Can you show me where the Bible positively says that fallen angels are demons?

I find that demons = unclean spirits.
I find that fallen angels exist, and do mischief.
What I can't find is where fallen angels = demons, or fallen angels = unclean spirits.

Jarrod
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 07:25:00 PM »

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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 09:14:55 PM »

Howdy,

I both read and commented on part 1.  But just for good measure I went back and re-read it at your suggestion.

Sorry, but I didn't really get anything new out of it.  You make a good case there that demons are not the spirits of wicked men.  But you don't make a case, really at all, that demons are fallen angels.

Can you show me where the Bible positively says that fallen angels are demons?

I find that demons = unclean spirits.
I find that fallen angels exist, and do mischief.
What I can't find is where fallen angels = demons, or fallen angels = unclean spirits.

Jarrod
 

   Jarrod, one more time.  I made reference to Jesus casting our demons (unclean spirits) from the man who lived among the tombs.  The demon said he knew who Jesus was, and even called Him the Son of God, or Son of the Most high. 

   How did the demon know Jesus so personally?  It is clear logic to conclude it was because he (the demon) was once with Jesus in heaven, before he and all the other rebellious angels were cast out. The inference is there and cannot be avoided.

Look for Number 3 in a few days.

   
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 10:21:55 PM »

Reformer

I have a question and isn't intended to challenge your ideas. But did Jesus exist in the Old Testament and if so, could they have known Him from that period of time?


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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 10:58:30 PM »

   Jarrod, one more time.  I made reference to Jesus casting our demons (unclean spirits) from the man who lived among the tombs.  The demon said he knew who Jesus was, and even called Him the Son of God, or Son of the Most high. 

   How did the demon know Jesus so personally?  It is clear logic to conclude it was because he (the demon) was once with Jesus in heaven, before he and all the other rebellious angels were cast out. The inference is there and cannot be avoided.

Look for Number 3 in a few days.
It has a certain logic to it, but if that the extent of what you have to show, your case is not very strong.

I could just as easily say that, since demons are spirits, they simply saw the truth in the spiritual and perceived God standing before them.

Did you know that virtually every reference to demons in the New Testament talks about them either possessing or being possessed by people?  I discovered this while I was looking for a verse that links demons to fallen angels.

Still haven't found that verse, btw.

Jarrod
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 10:58:30 PM »

 
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 06:58:58 AM »


Wycliffes_Shillelagh


Quote
Still haven't found that verse, btw.

When you find it let me know. I have been looking also.  I am also looking for a connection between Lucifer and fallen angels. Seems as if the only reference to Lucifer is a statement speaking about  Nebuchadnezzar.

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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 06:58:58 AM »

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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 06:13:57 PM »

Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Quote
Still haven't found that verse, btw.

When you find it let me know. I have been looking also.
Are you?  Let me save you some time...I've understated the scope of my search a little.

I've checked every instance of the Greek word in the New Testament.  I've checked every instance of the verb forms of the word that have separate Strong's numbers.  I've found the cognate word in Hebrew (Shad) by checking its usage in the Septuagint, and researched all the OT usages of that word through Gesenius lexicon, as well as one other derived from it (Shaddai).

The identification doesn't exist in the Bible.

The closest thing is the Pharisee's declaration in the synoptic gospels that Jesus is casting out demons by the power of Beelzeboul archonti twn daimoniwn.  Given that the statement as a whole is immediately said to be false, it's probably not a good place to start building a doctrine.

Paul also appears to disagree with the Pharisaic idea that demons are the gods of the pagans in his epistles.

Quote
I am also looking for a connection between Lucifer and fallen angels. Seems as if the only reference to Lucifer is a statement speaking about  Nebuchadnezzar.
2Cr 11:14 carries the gist of the thought without stating it explicitly: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

The story of the snake in the tree and the apple that the lady oughtn't to have eaten can be spun that way too, if one identifies the snake as Satan.  Oddly enough, the text doesn't demand that bit of interpretation at all, despite what you may have heard in Sunday school at age 9.

That particular interpretation of the story seems to have leaked into Christianity from gnosticism, as part of the "serpent seed" heresy. 

No major wonder here.  The identification of Satan as lucifer is explicit in Sethian (is it Sethite?) gnosticism, where he is worshipped under that title.

Oh!  One last thing.  Campbell wasn't innovating with the idea that demons are the spirits of evil men.  The idea is explicitly stated by Josephus in his 1st century writings.  Make of that what you will.

Jarrod

PS.  Sorry for the offputting technicality of this post.  I usually try to keep it simpler than this for ease of reading/comprehension.
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 07:27:39 PM »




Quote
2Cr 11:14 carries the gist of the thought without stating it explicitly: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

I will investigate that a little more deeply but it seems to be reaching just a little bit. Don't you agree?

Quote
PS.  Sorry for the offputting technicality of this post.  I usually try to keep it simpler than this for ease of reading/comprehension
.

That is OK. I can read it twice.   No worries

GTM
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