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Author Topic: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?  (Read 6455 times)

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Craig Baugher

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Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:09:11 »
That is the question my 16-year-old daughter asked me today.  "Dad, if God determines the time of birth and the time of death of everyone before they are born, then why does he bring babies into this world only to die?"

Well... God sometimes tests us.  It may not seem fair, but those babies were born for a reason, and that is to test the faith of the family members of those babies.  To see if they turn to God or to see if they turn away.

"Well if that is true, then why do we care so much for the babies that die from abortion?  If God already knows the time of of conception and death, and it is a test for the mother, then why do we try and stop them?"

Well... Not all are suppose to die, and it is the interceding that saves those that are suppose to live.  If they are to live, then it was our interceding that brought about the mother changing her mind.

"Then why does God allow kids to die of painful deceases like cancer?"

Man... What's with all the tough questions?  I believe again, it is a test.  We may not fully understand why, but we are to remain strong in faith, and that is the toughest test a parent can go through.  Sometimes, God saves these child, and I believe that occurs all those involve are strong in faith.

Wow, how would you answer these questions.

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Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:09:11 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:00:27 »
The answer to your daughter's question is that God does not make those decisions.  He has set the physical laws in place to govern the natural functioning of His creation and that is the controlling element.  Only very, very occasionally, has God ever set aside the natural functioning of His creation to bring about a very special set of circumstances.

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:00:27 »

Offline memphis

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:37:24 »
The answer to your daughter's question is that God does not make those decisions.  He has set the physical laws in place to govern the natural functioning of His creation and that is the controlling element.  Only very, very occasionally, has God ever set aside the natural functioning of His creation to bring about a very special set of circumstances.





and if you would like to know when those very special circumstances are then just ask Jimmy who is one of the few who know when this occurs.


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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:37:24 »

Offline gator_forChrist

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:46:51 »
Good people pass away, the godly often die before their time. But no one seems to wonder  why. No one seems to understand that God is protecting them from the evil to come.


Isaiah 57:1

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:46:51 »

Offline extranos

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:57:56 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:57:56 »



Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:54:28 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

So your thoughts on this are that babies and children die because God kills them.  Is that about right?

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:54:28 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 20:14:14 »
Good people pass away, the godly often die before their time. But no one seems to wonder  why. No one seems to understand that God is protecting them from the evil to come.


Isaiah 57:1

I believe that is sometimes true.  He sees ahead and spares them of some future event.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 20:42:43 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

So your thoughts on this are that babies and children die because God kills them.  Is that about right?

I wonder what my daughter who was born premature because of an abruption did in the womb to offend God so much that he killed her before she could breathe on her own and live outside the womb?

Offline Terrence

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 21:13:21 »
It is simply not wise for a finite man who cannot possible begin to understand God's ways, to ask the "what if" questions and assume that it is not fair for God to do a certain things. The infinite God has purposes in all that he does.

"The Lord has made all things for a purpose; yea even the wicked for the day of destruction" (Proverb 16:4).


People, we need to learn from Job, that righteous man. We need to realize that God is sovereign in all things, and that though we do not understand the "why's" behind somethings that he does, we must still trust in him. We must be like that great psalmist who said..."I do not concern myself with things to great for me." We must be like Paul, that blessed soul who said..."Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways (Romans 11:33)!

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 21:13:21 »

Offline JerryW

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 22:26:24 »
God determines the length of everybodys life (whether babes, children or adults) because he is GOD. Our every breath comes from him! Job 14:5 states Man"s days are DETERMINED, you have decreed the number of his months, and have set limits he cannot exceed(so much for "freewill").  Also Psalms 139:16 has the words "All the DAYS ORDAINED for me." in it !

Offline memphis

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 07:24:59 »
The answer to your daughter's question is that God does not make those decisions.  He has set the physical laws in place to govern the natural functioning of His creation and that is the controlling element.  Only very, very occasionally, has God ever set aside the natural functioning of His creation to bring about a very special set of circumstances.



This sounds very Deistic and unbiblical. Jim, you are simply stating your opinion of how you think God works and moves. I would suggest that you pick up a copy of Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby which is a basic book on how God is still moving and working through the lives of his children.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 07:39:55 »
The answer to your daughter's question is that God does not make those decisions.  He has set the physical laws in place to govern the natural functioning of His creation and that is the controlling element.  Only very, very occasionally, has God ever set aside the natural functioning of His creation to bring about a very special set of circumstances.



This sounds very Deistic and unbiblical. Jim, you are simply stating your opinion of how you think God works and moves. I would suggest that you pick up a copy of Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby which is a basic book on how God is still moving and working through the lives of his children.

Memphis, in all honesty what anything I say sounds like to you is immaterial.  Yes I am simply stating my opinion.  And when you post you do nothing but state your opinion.  All who post anything are simply stating opinion.  Even when the post contains quotations from a book or the Bible, still the implication that is intended is again simply stating an opinion.  So I don't know about you, but all I can do is simply state my opinion.  Perhaps you have a direct line to God.  It seems that you think you do, but I doubt it.

Why don't you take whatever you think you learned in that book and go back up to Gary's post (Reply #7) and answer his question.  Perhaps you could tell Gary not only why but how.  Was God's killing their daughter a miracle?

Gary asked:
Quote
I wonder what my daughter who was born premature because of an abruption did in the womb to offend God so much that he killed her before she could breathe on her own and live outside the womb?
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 08:00:05 by Jimmy »

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 07:48:44 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

So your thoughts on this are that babies and children die because God kills them.  Is that about right?

God killed many babies in the Old Testament.. even judged some in the womb.  My God has not changed since then.. why has yours?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 08:03:09 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

So your thoughts on this are that babies and children die because God kills them.  Is that about right?

God killed many babies in the Old Testament.. even judged some in the womb.  My God has not changed since then.. why has yours?

Could you provide the scripture for God's judging of some babies in the womb?

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 09:54:28 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

So your thoughts on this are that babies and children die because God kills them.  Is that about right?

God killed many babies in the Old Testament.. even judged some in the womb.  My God has not changed since then.. why has yours?

Could you provide the scripture for God's judging of some babies in the womb?

I find it quite amusing that you would ask for biblical support when it is all over the Old Testament.

1.) When God chose Jacob over Esau and judged Esau before he was even born.

2.) When God instructed Israel to kill every man woman and child in Canaan when they took possession of it... assuming that there were no pregnant women killed according to God's command is being ignorant.

3.) When God killed the 75,000 Israelites for worshiping the Ark of the Covenant.. do you think that magically no women were pregnant?.

4.) When God killed the families of Korah, Dathan and Abiram and the ensuing plague.. do you think no pregnant women received the plague?

And on and on and on.

We have all sinned and deserve death simply because we are human... men, women, children and babies.. even babies in the womb.

5.)

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 10:06:29 »
Babies and children die because they are sinners and God is a just God.
Dan

So your thoughts on this are that babies and children die because God kills them.  Is that about right?

God killed many babies in the Old Testament.. even judged some in the womb.  My God has not changed since then.. why has yours?

Could you provide the scripture for God's judging of some babies in the womb?

I find it quite amusing that you would ask for biblical support when it is all over the Old Testament.

1.) When God chose Jacob over Esau and judged Esau before he was even born.

2.) When God instructed Israel to kill every man woman and child in Canaan when they took possession of it... assuming that there were no pregnant women killed according to God's command is being ignorant.

3.) When God killed the 75,000 Israelites for worshiping the Ark of the Covenant.. do you think that magically no women were pregnant?.

4.) When God killed the families of Korah, Dathan and Abiram and the ensuing plague.. do you think no pregnant women received the plague?

And on and on and on.

We have all sinned and deserve death simply because we are human... men, women, children and babies.. even babies in the womb.

5.)


Tantor,

Once again, you are simply out in left field somewhere running around without a glove and without a clue of what the heck is going on.

When you die, do you think that it will be God who kills you because you have sinned?  Yes you probably do. I needn't even bother to ask.

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 10:53:04 »
Tantor,

Once again, you are simply out in left field somewhere running around without a glove and without a clue of what the heck is going on.

When you die, do you think that it will be God who kills you because you have sinned?  Yes you probably do. I needn't even bother to ask.

Not always... most of us die naturally because of the degenerative effects of sin on us.. but I do believe that God still strikes down individuals personally for their transgressions as he so wishes. 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 12:17:31 »
Tantor,

Once again, you are simply out in left field somewhere running around without a glove and without a clue of what the heck is going on.

When you die, do you think that it will be God who kills you because you have sinned?  Yes you probably do. I needn't even bother to ask.

Not always... most of us die naturally because of the degenerative effects of sin on us.. but I do believe that God still strikes down individuals personally for their transgressions as he so wishes. 

You believe that God strikes down babies even before they are born for their transgressions and then leaves men like Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, de Torquemada, etc., etc., to live long enough to torture. maim, kill or worse millions upon millions of people?  And why?  Because He so wishes?  Absolutely Amazing.

And you would actually expect someone to hear you and believe?  Oh, that is right, you get to believe only if He so wishes also.  And that is how you would portray our great and glorious and righteous and holy God.  Again, absolutely amazing.

Offline extranos

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 22:21:09 »
Jimmy,
Why do you accuse God of killing infants and babies?  I never said that God kills them, but you immediately jump to that conclusion.  An interesting look into how your mind works....

Scripture says that the wages of sin is death.  I don't really think that you dispute that, do you?  So people die because God, being just, sentences us to death because we are sinful beings.  That is not the same thing as being killed by God, but God is certainly not letting people live forever in human flesh, is He?  That is also beyond dispute, is it not?
If we never sinned, then there would be no need for God to put our human flesh to death.  But we have sinned, all of us, and all of us have fallen short of the glory of God, so He puts our flesh to death.
Therefore, because the wages of sin is physical death, and God hates sin, he puts our flesh to death.
I do not consider God to be a killer, but I do not fault him for seeing to it that my flesh will die.  Does that bother you?
Why would you think that kids should get a free pass when you won't get one?

Offline Gracious

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 00:06:49 »
Hello Craig,  ::smile::

To me you are an awesome "spiritual guide" for your daughter and I only pray that she knows it & feels blessed! You appear to be rearing her religiously AND spiritually & she is definitely a "thinker" ... Amen?  I love the way you chose to answer her.  GOD Bless you!!!
   
As far as her questions:

"Dad, if God determines the time of birth and the time of death of everyone before they are born, then why does he bring babies into this world only to die?"

I agree with your answer because what your daughter said was that GOD does choose the time of our "physical"birth & the time of our "physical" death. 
 
Now concerning our why’s  ...  “they” are answers that only HE can "fully" know. Because “we” HIS children are only able to see life through lenses darkly…

1 Corinthians 13[(King James Version)
12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

This scripture I believe speaks about all knowledge & wisdom that our FATHER allows us, yet with all that HE allows - there are still profound answers to "our" questions that will not be known to us while we are confined by our fleshly robes.

Plainly, we may use our intellect & peruse scripture to determine the ”meaning” of LIFE (as in our purpose), which is to bring HIM joy (Hebrews 12:2, Luke 15:10), but to “fully” answer your daughter’s question(s) … we can not & I do not believe that scripture tells us either.  For these (her questions) can only be answered by The FATHER directly … as in face to face (spirit to SPIRIT). 

Sooo, when you said:

“…Well... God sometimes tests us.  It may not seem fair, but those babies were born for a reason, and that is to test the faith of the family members of those babies.  To see if they turn to God or to see if they turn away...”

Judging by what scripture tells us of our Deity’s Imminence (James 1:17, Psalm 33:11, Psalm 18:30, Isaiah 40:8, Hebrews 13:8 ). I would agree that you could be portionally right.

Offline Hehealedme

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 00:31:37 »
.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 23:02:12 by Hehealedme »

Offline Gracious

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 00:41:08 »
Your testimony is so awesome "Hehealedme ", thank you for sharing it!  May i ask when you 1st stopped being angry with GOD for taking your child, or when you understood that GOD wasn't punishing you? ::hug::


Offline Hehealedme

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 01:45:12 »
It is a lonnnnng story but I will give you the short version of it...

It happened a few months before I started reading the Bible and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour...I had written a poem about my son and posted it on a Clay Aiken message board, because I am a fan of his, however I am not obsessed by him in any way...
I wanted people to know about my Gabriel, his short life, his death, and also because I had made a promise to my son just a few minutes before his passing. I wanted to keep that promise...my ''deadline'' for that promise was May 28th 2004, exactly ten years after he had died...
The promise I made to my son was to talk about Folic Acid to women so their babies can have a chance to a life without being born with Spina Bifida...

I thank you Gracious for giving me this opportunity tonight...
May God bless you... ::prayinghard::




The poem I wrote is this one:





Gabriel, this is for you…


~Today is a very special day…
Today I am remembering…

Ten years ago today, you were a gift from God…
You were born on Mother’s Day…
Just like mommy, years ago…
On this rainy Sunday of May…

I will not cry today…
No need to say…
This is so hard…

When a mommy is expecting a baby…
She wishes for him to be beautiful and healthy…
You were so beautiful Gabriel…
But I was hoping for you to be well…
The doctors told us that you would be…
A very sick little baby…

Ten years ago today…
You left us, your daddy and I…
For a better place and now you may…
Not suffer, hurt nor cry…

As I held you in my arms that night…
In my heart I already knew…
I knew you were saying your last goodbye…
As I was saying mine…

You remember the song playing on the radio…
’’Can’t Help Falling In Love With You’’…
I wispered those words to your ear that night…
As I was tenderly looking at you…

Then I said…
You can sleep now Gabriel…
Mommy is here for you…
Suddenly I saw it in your eyes…

As you took your very last breath…
Slowly your heart stopped beating…
I felt it in my heart…
And something in me died…

The doctors kept giving us hope…
But deep down inside I already knew…
That this road was to be for you…
The hardest thing to do…

Those dreadful words…
I will never forget…
‘’Code Blue, we are losing this baby’’…
The nurses surrounded you…
Gently they pushed me aside and started to revive you…
Earlier that day, you had many seizures…
Your heart couldn’t take it anymore…

I begged them to let you be…
Then suddenly…
As I was cuddling you…
In a better place you had gone to be…

How I regretted this moment…
For many years I felt so guilty…
What have I done, I kept asking…
Maybe, just maybe…
You would have survived a little longer…
But in my heart, I knew I had to let you go…

For you, God had other plans…
Your little body was so weak…
It was impossible for you to live…
You had severe Spina Bifida…
The doctors finally admitted…
There was nothing they could do…

Your first steps I will never see…
Your first words I will never hear…
How much I wish I could have seen you smile…
Your heart and soul in my mind will be…
Sweet and precious memories…

Something wonderful happened on this board…
It started slowly a year ago…
I found these songs from a singer…
His name is Clay Aiken…
I found such beautiful words…
As if they came from Heaven…

And suddenly one day, it happened…
A picture on this board helped me…
For many, it may have been just be a picture…
But what I saw was so beautiful and serein…
I couldn’t help but see…

I knew then…
That I was able to accept God in my life again…
For so long I admit,
I hated Him for allowing this to happen…
But suddenly it all came clear to me…

That you were to be our loving Angel…
Your journey on earth was so short…
It lasted only twenty days…
Your daddy named you Gabriel…
It is the name of an Angel…

During these last few months…
I have received many signs…
I thought I was going insane…
I lost my identity…
But now I do accept…
Your departure was for the best…

Gabriel you have taught me…
How short and precious life can be…
One day when the time comes for me…
Together we will fly and finally be free…

My journey is far from over…
There will be other days when I will feel…
Pain and sorrow in my heart…
But I need to keep in mind and remember…
To just stay calm and I will feel better…

Clay simply showed me the way…
To accept God in my life again…
And if I ever lose my way…
God will carry all my pain…

Until I see you in Heaven…
And hold you in my arms forever…
Sleep my dearest Gabriel…
Sleep my sweet little Angel…

I love you so Gabriel and I miss you…
I am so sorry, I tried…
But I can’t help it…I cried…~







What is Folic Acid?
Folic Acid, or folate, is one of the B vitamins important for healthy growth of your unborn baby. It is essential to the normal development of your baby's spine, brain and skull, especially during the first four weeks of your pregnancy. It is, therefore, important to start taking vitamin supplements with Folic Acid before you get pregnant to reduce the risk of neural tube defect.


What are neural tube defects (NTDs)?
Neural tube defects (NTDs) are birth defects that occur when the neural tube fails to close properly during the early weeks of pregnancy, resulting in abnormalities of the spine, brain or skull that can result in stillbirth or lifelong disability. Closure of the neural tube happens early in pregnancy, often before a woman knows she is pregnant. Spina bifida is the most common NTD.

0.4 mg a day
All women who could become pregnant should take a multivitamin containing 0.4 mg of Folic Acid every day. To help reduce the risk of NTDs, you should start taking the vitamin supplement at least three months before you get pregnant and continue through the first three months of your pregnancy. Talk to your health professional to find the supplement best for you.


Your history
If you have had a previous pregnancy affected by an NTD or have a family history of this problem, see your doctor. You may be advised to take a higher dosage of Folic Acid. If you have diabetes, obesity or epilepsy, you may be at higher risk of having a baby with an NTD, and you should see your doctor before planning pregnancy.


Eat a balanced diet
Taking a vitamin supplement does not reduce or replace the need for a healthy, well-balanced diet according to Canada's Food Guide to Healthy Eating. Good or excellent sources of Folic Acid include dark green vegetables (broccoli, spinach, peas and brussel sprouts), corn, dried peas, beans, lentils, oranges and orange juice. Whole grain breads and foods fortified with Folic Acid also provide significant amounts of the vitamin.

Too much of a good thing?
Do not take more than one daily dose of vitamin supplement as indicated on the product label. Increasing your dose of Folic Acid beyond 1 mg per day without the advice of a doctor is not recommended. In large doses some substances in multivitamins could actually do more harm than good. This is especially true of Vitamin A in the retinol form. Try to select a supplement with Vitamin A as beta-carotene rather than as retinol. This difference is indicated on the label.

Can NTDs be detected before birth?
Some NTDs can be detected before birth by prenatal screening tests. If you are pregnant and wish to know more about the prenatal diagnosis of NTDs, talk to your health professional about the prenatal blood test or ultrasound test that can give you more information about whether your unborn baby has an NTD.






www.youngwomenshealth.org/folicacid.html
www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9804/08/cereal.heart/
www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00417.html
www.fetal-surgery.com/
http://www.180medical.com/Case_Spina_Bifida.asp


ps. the picture I was speaking about in my poem was a picture of the universe.
Clay Aiken is a born-again Christian...he is not afraid of sharing his faith in Jesus to others...this is one of the reasons why I respect him so much...
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 02:01:02 by Hehealedme »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 07:46:01 »
Jimmy,
Why do you accuse God of killing infants and babies?  I never said that God kills them, but you immediately jump to that conclusion.  An interesting look into how your mind works....

Scripture says that the wages of sin is death.  I don't really think that you dispute that, do you?  So people die because God, being just, sentences us to death because we are sinful beings.  That is not the same thing as being killed by God, but God is certainly not letting people live forever in human flesh, is He?  That is also beyond dispute, is it not?
If we never sinned, then there would be no need for God to put our human flesh to death.  But we have sinned, all of us, and all of us have fallen short of the glory of God, so He puts our flesh to death.
Therefore, because the wages of sin is physical death, and God hates sin, he puts our flesh to death.
I do not consider God to be a killer, but I do not fault him for seeing to it that my flesh will die.  Does that bother you?
Why would you think that kids should get a free pass when you won't get one?


If you are referring to Romans 6:23 concerning wages of sin and death, I think most agree that physical death is not what is in view.  Paul is talking about spiritual death, or the second death.  That is apparent because he contrast the wages of sin with the free gift of God:

22  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Now it is true that Adam's sin resulted in his getting ejected from the Garden which then precluded our participation in that.  But our physical death is not punishment for our sins.  Just punishment for sins is spiritual not physical death.  

Physical death is what we inherited from Adam since it was the Garden that offered the fountain of youth so to speak.  When the Garden was placed off limits to Adam and his progeny then physical death resulted from that.  And that, not original sin, is our inheritance from Adam.  So we get physical death due to Adam, we get spiritual death due to our own sins and no one else's.  Therefore the wages of sin is spiritual death but the free gift of God is spiritual life with Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

And babies and cildren too young to understand right and wrong and the ramifications of doing right or wrong do not sin.

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 09:09:38 »
Unfortunately your opinion is just that.. it's an opinion extrapolated from that you think scriptures mean.. there is not a single world in the entire bible about children and babies getting a free pass.

But whatever makes you feel better.. I guess.

Jesus will be coming back to rule with a sword, he will kill 1/3 of the inhabitants.. so I guess you feel he is going to kill them physically and give them a free pass when judgment day comes?

In the end, Americans have lost the entire concept of collective punishment that God uses over and over again throughout history.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 10:02:51 »
Unfortunately your opinion is just that.. it's an opinion extrapolated from that you think scriptures mean.. there is not a single world in the entire bible about children and babies getting a free pass.

But whatever makes you feel better.. I guess.

Jesus will be coming back to rule with a sword, he will kill 1/3 of the inhabitants.. so I guess you feel he is going to kill them physically and give them a free pass when judgment day comes?

In the end, Americans have lost the entire concept of collective punishment that God uses over and over again throughout history.


Yes it is an opinion.  An opinion based upon what I believe it says.  Do you offer something more?  No, yours is only an opinion as well.  And with even a cursory reading of Romans, chapter six, it is obvious that your opinion isn't well founded in scripture.

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 10:06:31 »
But one test of scripture has always been to resist the temptation to 'go beyond' what was written.

What is not known is something I prefer to left as being unknown.  Any theories beyond what was written are a result of human pride and the inability to resist the fact that what is known is only what God wants us to know.

You can theorize all you want... whether its consistent with scripture or not is irrelevant.. it's bogus.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 10:14:52 »
To the OP:

Bad things do not necessarily follow sin because God is doling out punishment supernaturally.  Rather, God designed the world, naturally, in such a way that sin always produces negative results.  (A good reason to try not to sin).

Unfortunately, the negative results sometimes land on someone other than the perpetrator of the sin.  Often this is because the perp finds a way to "pass the buck" and so someone else gets screwed over because of his sin.

The effects of sin in the world tend to accumulate.  Small errors - things like poor eating habits, and overexposure to the sun - tend to lead to things like genetic diseases, and miscarried pregnancies.

This is not to say that God does not work in the supernatural.  And God does punish those He loves.  When He does punish us this way, it is a great mercy - it allows us to deal with the problem correctively and preventatively.

If you like word studies, an excellent one deals with the relationship between "judgment" and "light" throughout the Bible.

Offline KingsKid

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #28 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 10:32:24 »
      Thank you, HE HEALED ME sharing your beautiful poem and the info about spina bifida.
I couldn't get through it without crying though.

Offline Gracious

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #29 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 11:17:34 »
Thank you, thank you, thank you HeHealedMe ::kissing::

How beautiful ... You have given more to me through your sharing (your soul-stirring poem), than I have words to express!!! 

I must admit that when I saw your name (your handle) my spirit got excited!!!  Because I could feel the "awesome" testimony that you just gave ... just by reading your "on-line" name. ::smile::   You'd posted right after me & your closing sentence was so inspiring & it made me feel secure enough to actually ask if you would share more of your "heart" with us!

I THANK GOD FOR YOU ... 'cause wherever you go you will show HIS Light of Inspiration!!!

Manna to you!


Gracious

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One more question  ::blushing:: ... Is that your gift ... Inspirational speaking? ::shrug::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #30 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 11:46:54 »
But one test of scripture has always been to resist the temptation to 'go beyond' what was written.

What is not known is something I prefer to left as being unknown.  Any theories beyond what was written are a result of human pride and the inability to resist the fact that what is known is only what God wants us to know.

You can theorize all you want... whether its consistent with scripture or not is irrelevant.. it's bogus.

Please explain your last sentence.  It seems a bit strange to me.  For example, I can only theorize that God loves you since the Bible doesn't say specifically that he loves you personally, Tantor, or whatever your name is.  Now I believe that is consistent with scripture, but you say that is irrelevant and is bogus, meaning that God doesn't love you.  I don't get what you are trying to say.

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 13:18:04 »
What I am saying is that if the Bible does not say some specifically, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify what God has left out intentionally.

Like you on your free will crusade... the end result of your biblical study is prone to error as is those that believe in predestination and election.. God used both types of wording when he talks about humankind.  I am open toward free will or predestination.. I may lean one way or the other, but I am not puffed up and egotistical enough to believe my take (or anyone elses for that matter) is the end all to be all interpretation of any doctrinal issue.  hence, I will not waste much time defending my position.. while I watch so many people on this board waste away hours and hours debating something that only God will be able to clarify when he comes again.

Which is why I have grown highly suspicious of the content of the bible lately, since the index was written by man and there are a few other ancient writings that I believe carry equal weight and should be included.  The content of the Bible is nothing more then a human intellectual exercise and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you are going to bet the farm on some obscure passages.


Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #32 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:36:22 »
What I am saying is that if the Bible does not say some specifically, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify what God has left out intentionally.

Like you on your free will crusade... the end result of your biblical study is prone to error as is those that believe in predestination and election.. God used both types of wording when he talks about humankind.  I am open toward free will or predestination.. I may lean one way or the other, but I am not puffed up and egotistical enough to believe my take (or anyone elses for that matter) is the end all to be all interpretation of any doctrinal issue.  hence, I will not waste much time defending my position.. while I watch so many people on this board waste away hours and hours debating something that only God will be able to clarify when he comes again.

Which is why I have grown highly suspicious of the content of the bible lately, since the index was written by man and there are a few other ancient writings that I believe carry equal weight and should be included.  The content of the Bible is nothing more then a human intellectual exercise and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you are going to bet the farm on some obscure passages.

I don't know where you go from here then Tantor.  The Bible is the only thing that you have to tell you anything about God.  I guess you will just have to make it up as you go along.  But, frankly, based upon some of your postes it sounds like that is what you have been doing all along.

Tantor

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #33 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:41:44 »
What I am saying is that if the Bible does not say some specifically, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify what God has left out intentionally.

Like you on your free will crusade... the end result of your biblical study is prone to error as is those that believe in predestination and election.. God used both types of wording when he talks about humankind.  I am open toward free will or predestination.. I may lean one way or the other, but I am not puffed up and egotistical enough to believe my take (or anyone elses for that matter) is the end all to be all interpretation of any doctrinal issue.  hence, I will not waste much time defending my position.. while I watch so many people on this board waste away hours and hours debating something that only God will be able to clarify when he comes again.

Which is why I have grown highly suspicious of the content of the bible lately, since the index was written by man and there are a few other ancient writings that I believe carry equal weight and should be included.  The content of the Bible is nothing more then a human intellectual exercise and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you are going to bet the farm on some obscure passages.

I don't know where you go from here then Tantor.  The Bible is the only thing that you have to tell you anything about God.  I guess you will just have to make it up as you go along.  But, frankly, based upon some of your postes it sounds like that is what you have been doing all along.

No, I prefer to put the totality of the corruption of man in the forefront when I view spiritual things.

The end is we are all sinful and all corrupt, even those in the church for the last 2k years.

And if God has never brought you to your knees and convicted you of just how worthless you are, I doubt your conversion.


Offline Jimmy

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Re: Dad... Why Do Babies and Children Die?
« Reply #34 on: Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:54:00 »
What I am saying is that if the Bible does not say some specifically, we should not take it upon ourselves to clarify what God has left out intentionally.

Like you on your free will crusade... the end result of your biblical study is prone to error as is those that believe in predestination and election.. God used both types of wording when he talks about humankind.  I am open toward free will or predestination.. I may lean one way or the other, but I am not puffed up and egotistical enough to believe my take (or anyone elses for that matter) is the end all to be all interpretation of any doctrinal issue.  hence, I will not waste much time defending my position.. while I watch so many people on this board waste away hours and hours debating something that only God will be able to clarify when he comes again.

Which is why I have grown highly suspicious of the content of the bible lately, since the index was written by man and there are a few other ancient writings that I believe carry equal weight and should be included.  The content of the Bible is nothing more then a human intellectual exercise and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if you are going to bet the farm on some obscure passages.

I don't know where you go from here then Tantor.  The Bible is the only thing that you have to tell you anything about God.  I guess you will just have to make it up as you go along.  But, frankly, based upon some of your postes it sounds like that is what you have been doing all along.

No, I prefer to put the totality of the corruption of man in the forefront when I view spiritual things.

The end is we are all sinful and all corrupt, even those in the church for the last 2k years.

And if God has never brought you to your knees and convicted you of just how worthless you are, I doubt your conversion.



Conversion to what?  Without the word of God there is nothing to convert to nor is there any reason to convert if there was anything to convert to.