Author Topic: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture  (Read 826 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:15:53 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Deciphering & Reconciling
Scripture

    I would like to suggest a few basic rudiments in understanding and reconciling scripture. These are my recommendations only. You may have a few that transcends mine. Feel free to share them. 

    1] If we perceive a biblical term or statement to be figurative or symbolic only to discover later that it clashes with other terms and statements relative to the same topic, erase the figurative thought and accept it as normal speech. An example is that Jesus called King Herod a fox. Our Lord, of course, did not speak literally. His charge was emblematic in that the king was as shy as a fox.

    2] Rational logic or “native reason” is essential to comprehending any kind of literature. Shakespeare’s writings are an example.

    3] Good judgment or discretion is a must! Inaccurate discernments will always throw us off cue and confuse us even more.


    Do we take a thousand-year terrestrial reign in Revelation literally or figuratively? If literally, how do we rectify that thought with Jesus’ assertion to Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world” [John 18:36]. Jesus’ present-day reignship is spiritual—“not of this world.” It is not like, nor will it ever resemble, earthly kingdoms and governments.

    So the future thousand-year earthly reign, as many believers sincerely advocate, might possibly be a figurative/symbolic number and could very well reference our Lord’s current reignship, the Era of Grace. But whether it alludes to either is not a matter of salvation, nor should we make it a condition of brotherhood.

    Jesus is our Redeemer, not the number “1,000,” not the “Battle of Armageddon,” not the future modern-day “Rapture” persuasion, not the future “Tribulation,” and not other controversial “side dishes.” The backbone of our eternal redemption is our relationship with a Man called Jesus, not a bucket-full of controversial doctrinal issues. It is only in Him that we will stand or fall
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 21:35:24 by Reformer »

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Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« on: Sat Sep 12, 2020 - 14:15:53 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #1 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 20:42:51 »

Small Correction:

    In the column above, I said King Herod was “as shy as a fox.” I intended to say “as sly as a fox.”

    First mistake I've made this year. And if you believe that, you've made your first mistake!

Buff

Offline TrevorL

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #2 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 22:28:55 »
Greetings Reformer,
     I would like to suggest a few basic rudiments in understanding and reconciling scripture. These are my recommendations only. You may have a few that transcends mine. Feel free to share them. 
    1] If we perceive a biblical term or statement to be figurative or symbolic only to discover later that it clashes with other terms and statements relative to the same topic, erase the figurative thought and accept it as normal speech. An example is that Jesus called King Herod a fox. Our Lord, of course, did not speak literally. His charge was emblematic in that the king was as sly as a fox.
    2] Rational logic or “native reason” is essential to comprehending any kind of literature. Shakespeare’s writings are an example.
    3] Good judgment or discretion is a must! Inaccurate discernments will always throw us off cue and confuse us even more.
I endorse the above.
Quote
    Do we take a thousand-year terrestrial reign in Revelation literally or figuratively? If literally, how do we rectify that thought with Jesus’ assertion to Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world” [John 18:36]. Jesus’ present-day reignship is spiritual—“not of this world.” It is not like, nor will it ever resemble, earthly kingdoms and governments.
I disagree with this. The Kingdom that Jesus will establish upon the earth when he returns will replace the present kingdoms of men, and will last 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Luke 1:30-33, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8. Jesus’ Kingdom was not to be derived from what was then the current Jewish world, or order of things.
Quote
    So the future thousand-year earthly reign, as many believers sincerely advocate, might possibly be a figurative/symbolic number and could very well reference our Lord’s current reignship, the Era of Grace. But whether it alludes to either is not a matter of salvation, nor should we make it a condition of brotherhood.
I am in fellowship with those who believe the One Gospel, containing the things of the Kingdom and Name are baptised Acts 8:5-6,12.

Kind regards
Trevor
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 22:35:00 by TrevorL »

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #2 on: Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 22:28:55 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 05:51:42 »
Buff - I take exception to your point #2.  The western Greek logic system laid down by Aristotle is very good for analyzing the physical world around us.  BUT it is NOT the logic system of the Bible.  We are so used to aristotilian logic that we fail to realize there are OTHER logic frameworks.  The one used in the bible is called either Adductive logic (as opposed to deductive, inductive and abductive logic)  or Hebrew Block Logic.  It recognizes the various "levels" of meaning inherent in all Semitic languages.  Hebrew scripture is recognized as having 4 levels.  The arabic in the koran has 7.

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 05:51:42 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 06:35:55 »
Quote
I am in fellowship with those who believe the One Gospel, containing the things of the Kingdom and Name are baptised Acts 8:5-6,12.
So am I. Now I will have to follow your posting to see just how far our agreements go.

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 06:35:55 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #5 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 06:40:08 »
Buff - I take exception to your point #2.  The western Greek logic system laid down by Aristotle is very good for analyzing the physical world around us.  BUT it is NOT the logic system of the Bible.  We are so used to aristotilian logic that we fail to realize there are OTHER logic frameworks.  The one used in the bible is called either Adductive logic (as opposed to deductive, inductive and abductive logic)  or Hebrew Block Logic.  It recognizes the various "levels" of meaning inherent in all Semitic languages.  Hebrew scripture is recognized as having 4 levels.  The arabic in the koran has 7.
I have, in the past and in conjunction with similar statements by you about block logic, reviewed several articles on it.  I think the whole reference to "Hebrew Block Logic" is mostly a farce to explain why they reject what the Bible actually says and means.

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #5 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 06:40:08 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #6 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 14:33:41 »

TrevorL:

    "The Kingdom that Jesus will establish upon the earth when he returns will replace the present kingdoms of men..."
_____

     The Christian community or era of grace is God's kingdom [reign] upon this earth currently. His eternal reign or kingdom will be heaven.

    The writer of Hebrews recognized God's kingdom as existing when he penned the epistle. Note what what he declares:

    "Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire" [Heb. 12:28].

    And please note the other scriptures that speak of God's kingdom as currently existing: Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:20; Heb. 1:8. Plus, Jesus in all four Gospels spoke of the kingdom "at hand."

    It is my persuasion that the one-thousand year reign in Revelation was not meant to be a plain or literal number, but that it represents the entire era of grace under the New Covenant, which had its genesis on the birthday of the grace community, as recorded in Acts 2.

Buff

Offline TrevorL

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #7 on: Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 22:57:39 »
Greetings again Buff (Reformer),
The Christian community or era of grace is God's kingdom [reign] upon this earth currently. His eternal reign or kingdom will be heaven.
Jesus is our Lord, so in a sense he is our King and we are in His kingdom. But the Scriptures that I quoted indicate that Jesus will return and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth. I do not believe that the faithful go to heaven, either at death or at the return of Jesus.
Quote
    The writer of Hebrews recognized God's kingdom as existing when he penned the epistle. Note what what he declares:
    "Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire" [Heb. 12:28].
I understand this to be teaching that the Jewish State then existing was going to be overthrown in AD 70, but the future Kingdom at the return of Jesus will not be shaken or superseded. The writer of your OP did not altogether reject a future Kingdom of God upon the earth and such items as the Battle of Armageddon, but you seem to reject this literal view.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #8 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 03:34:39 »
I have, in the past and in conjunction with similar statements by you about block logic, reviewed several articles on it.  I think the whole reference to "Hebrew Block Logic" is mostly a farce to explain why they reject what the Bible actually says and means.
I don't know anything about block logic, but Hebrew is definitely a language geared for multiple layers of meaning.  Translations can only render one layer of meaning most of the time, and sometimes can't even get that right, when the meaning depends on wordplay.

Biblical Hebrew also seems to abhor abstraction.  Modern languages state factual premises and then make thought experiments to arrive at hypotheses or conclusions.  Not Hebrew... if it needs to convey something abstract, it instead goes into storytelling mode, and attempts to cause the reader to learn by experiencing events vicariously.

Jarrod

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #8 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 03:34:39 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #9 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 05:39:10 »
I don't know anything about block logic, but Hebrew is definitely a language geared for multiple layers of meaning.  Translations can only render one layer of meaning most of the time, and sometimes can't even get that right, when the meaning depends on wordplay.

Biblical Hebrew also seems to abhor abstraction.  Modern languages state factual premises and then make thought experiments to arrive at hypotheses or conclusions.  Not Hebrew... if it needs to convey something abstract, it instead goes into storytelling mode, and attempts to cause the reader to learn by experiencing events vicariously.
If you have seen any of the recent tv ads for Babel Language learning programs they say to learn a new language is to learn a new viewpoint.  The block logic is inherent in the language; in the lack of abstraction and the interplay between the layers of meaning.

Re-framing that into a western mentality with abstractions and linear logic loses much or even most of the meaning.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #10 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 13:23:07 »
If you have seen any of the recent tv ads for Babel Language learning programs they say to learn a new language is to learn a new viewpoint.
More like language family.  Romance languages all tend to be similar, Germanic languages tend to be similar, Semitic languages tend to be similar.  Currently learning Tagalog, my first agglutinative language, and it is very different from Romance/Germanic language.  It actually has some similarities with Semitic language, though, weirdly.

The block logic is inherent in the language; in the lack of abstraction and the interplay between the layers of meaning.

Re-framing that into a western mentality with abstractions and linear logic loses much or even most of the meaning.
I'd never heard of "block logic" before yesterday, but I definitely understand what you mean by "interplay between layers of meaning."  Like there are some Biblical ideas that I can't readily explain in English at all.  For instance, the idea of prophecy being "fulfilled."  The English idea that fulfilled means "came true" misses 90% of the meaning, and if I wrote you a 10-page paper on the subject, we might be able to push that to about 50%.   ::noworries:: ::lookaround::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #11 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 15:47:51 »
Jerrod:  I do not know if you are familiar with Einstein's Relativity; but in it he proposes "frames of reference."  That was kind of my in to starting to grasp the idea of blocks.  IMO he got the idea from the block logic he grew up with.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #12 on: Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 16:01:55 »
Jerrod:  I do not know if you are familiar with Einstein's Relativity; but in it he proposes "frames of reference."  That was kind of my in to starting to grasp the idea of blocks.  IMO he got the idea from the block logic he grew up with.
I was a math geek a few decades ago, but tensor calculus is way over my head.  I topped out with calc-3, linear equations, and the barest beginnings of statistics.  I've read enough over the years to know what "frames of reference" would mean with regards to general relativity. 

I have no idea how that idea would be applied to/from language, but language theory is interesting to me.  If you link a scholarly article, I'll read it.  (If you link a YouTube video, I probably won't watch it.)

Jarrod

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 08:40:02 »
Jerrod:  I do not know if you are familiar with Einstein's Relativity; but in it he proposes "frames of reference."  That was kind of my in to starting to grasp the idea of blocks.  IMO he got the idea from the block logic he grew up with.
Einstein developed his theories of relativity using good old "western logic".  It is highly mathematical and that is not likely coherent under any so-called Hebrew block logic. In fact, Einstein more or less developed tensor calculus as an aid in his work on scientific theories, and that also not from block logic.


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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #15 on: Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 08:43:20 »
Einstein developed his theories of relativity using good old "western logic".  It is highly mathematical and that is not likely coherent under any so-called Hebrew block logic. In fact, Einstein more or less developed tensor calculus as an aid in his work on scientific theories, and that also not from block logic.
If you actually understood anything about block logic and frames of reference you would see the similarity.

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #16 on: Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 08:57:29 »
If you actually understood anything about block logic and frames of reference you would see the similarity.
I understand frames of reference very well thank you.  I have a couple of degrees in that stuff.  And I neither had nor need block logic to understand Einstein's frames of reference.

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #17 on: Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 17:39:03 »
I just ordered a couple of books: Judaic Logic and Logic in the Talmud by Avi Sion.  Should be an interesting read.

https://books.google.com/books?id=L-wI8OGpvTUC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=adductive+logic&source=bl&ots=VhVhFLJrl7&sig=R7UfqoH4cgeggsbpgG7KGT0EpmQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDAQ6AEwA2oVChMIvsi0mOT7xwIVh4I-Ch0Z6Q7G#v=onepage&q=adductive%20logic&f=false
I read a couple pages, and scanned a few more until I arrived at a good idea of what he is calling "adductive logic."   This is pretty dry stuff, but I was able to figure out the relation you're making by combining it with this...

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/language/philosophy-of-the-hebrew-language.htm
This articulated block logic clearly.  It's just a matter of how things are ordered, apparently.  I can see how that dovetails into proving out inductive hypotheses (aka adduction).

I did have a few issues with the first part of this article, though... mainly that while he is trying to contrast Hebrew thought against Greek philosophy.... he doesn't have a very good grasp of Greek thought processes.

Early Greek thought (he cites 600BC) is actually more similar to what he postulates as "Eastern thought," being more rooted in the physical than the abstract, and coming at problems experientially.  Greek thought progresses from concrete towards abstract over time, and it wouldn't be wrong to say that this is the point of muthos.  The literary creation of the various "gods" in Greek mythology IS the building of a vocabulary of abstract notions.  The gods are themselves named as concepts, and their myths serve to define that concept in stories that have a more concrete tone.

To put it another way, Greek is not lacking adduction, this function exists and we usually call it gnosticism.

It finds similar expression in Hebrew in the wisdom literature.  I have sometimes wondered if gnostic thought originated with Solomon.  Proverbs, for example, is essentially gnostic/adductive - it uses concrete examples to back into axioms and principles.  Ecclesiastes reads as an expose' on the fruitlessness of the gnostic life.  Both pre-date Greek myths, mysteries, and philosophy by at least 3 centuries.

Jarrod

Offline Reformer

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Re: Deciphering & Reconciling Scripture
« Reply #18 on: Thu Sep 17, 2020 - 18:00:12 »

TrevorL:

    "The writer of your OP did not altogether reject a future Kingdom of God upon the earth..."

    I'll have more to say about the biblical references relating to a future earthly kingdom later. I will post it under a new heading.

    Look for it within the next 24 hours. I just returned home today after being out-of-town a few days.

Buff