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Author Topic: Destroy Body & Soul in Hell  (Read 2196 times)

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marc

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« on: Tue Apr 19, 2005 - 21:08:15 »
I posted this over in the Spiritual Sword thread and--surprise!--it seems to have been lost.  I would like to get a response, though, so maybe it'll get more attention here.

I believe that Hell is eternal, although I'm not sure we have a good grasp on what that means.

I think one verse Edward Fudge uses for the opposite view is the one in Matthew that says to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and Spirit in Hell, or some such thing.  Since I'm studying Matthew in two different classes right now (one with adults, one with kids), I'd be interested in hearing any insights people had on this verse.

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« on: Tue Apr 19, 2005 - 21:08:15 »

Offline Skip

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 07:39:06 »
Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #1 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 07:39:06 »

marc

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #2 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 08:03:07 »
Sure, and I agree.  But how are body and soul destroyed?

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #2 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 08:03:07 »

Offline mike

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #3 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:32:08 »
marc,

My current take on the matter is that we are  a soul, not someone who has  a soul. To state it differently, our body, mind, and soul are intricately interconnected and make us what we are. I don't think our soul is a ghost with a disembodied existence that happens to be inside a body for the moment.

If I am correct, then we are dead, our body is dead, our mind is dead, and our soul is dead. We will be resurrected at the last judgment, complete with body, mind, and soul. Those who do not receive eternal life will be killed/destroyed in some way. There will be no further resurrection, so their death (of body, mind, and soul) is then eternal.

Mike

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #3 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:32:08 »

boringoldguy

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #4 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:36:02 »
I think that the destruction is continuing -  I don't know how that could happen.  I know it seems contradictory,  but that looks like the only way to believe the body and soul can be destroyed but also believe that \"the worm never dies . . . \"

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #4 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:36:02 »



Offline Skip

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #5 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:57:30 »
From the other passages that use the same Greek word for destroy, I am left with the impression that those in hell will be 'destroyed' in the sense that their soul will not be reunited with a resurrected body and enter into heaven.

The same word \"destroy\" (same Greek behind it, but I'm not sure about the tenses) is used in the parable of the vineyard in Mark 12, with the same sort of idea at work -- the Jews who were of the kingdom of Israel would be destroyed in the sense that they would be separated from the kingdom if they did not enter into the new Covenant.

Something to think about, anyway...

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #5 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:57:30 »

Offline mike

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« Reply #6 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 13:58:01 »
bog,

This is a confusing matter for me at times, since there are several scriptures that will be difficult to explain in a straightforward fashion regardless of the position we take.

Regarding the undying worm and the unquenchable fire, one school of thought is that the fire will not be put out and the worm will not be stopped until they accomplish their purpose --- the complete and utter destruction of the dead corpses. In other words, a second death that is eternal because there will be no further resurrection.

Mike

Offline tidbit

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« Reply #7 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 21:32:39 »
I'm not sure if hell is eternal damnation or permanent extinction, but I am sure that I don't want to go there.

Offline Mere Nick

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« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 21:50:48 »
Quote
I'm not sure if hell is eternal damnation or permanent extinction, but I am sure that I don't want to go there.
Sounds like the choice between spending a week in Detroit or moving there permanently.  I don't want either one.

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 21:50:48 »

marc

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #9 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 21:54:22 »
I'm definitely not dogmatic about this.  On the whole, I think that some things are spoken of in language that gives us an idea of the truth, but there's no way our earth-bound selves can fully comprehend the truth.

Offline Jim Abb

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« Reply #10 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 22:06:51 »
I agree with Mike and Fudge and Cecil Hook about hell being destruction and death. There are just so many verses in scripture that describe it that way. Also, the idea of \"hell\" as we understand it today seems totally absent from OT teaching. It is truly an invasion of Greek thought into the church, just like purgatory and limbo.

Nowing having said all that, I also believe that the afterlife does not have time as we know it. God created time and rules it. So, to speak of eternity in suffering may be meaningless to us in the here and now.

Offline memmy

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #11 on: Wed Apr 20, 2005 - 22:12:46 »
I believe that where I don't want to be is eternally separated from God.

Can you imagine never having Him to go to, never having Him to be there for us always? I can't.

I believe that this is the worst imaginable place to be...........away from God for eternity.  :(

I do know that if we choose to stay away from Him time and time again, and continue to do so, we will live out our choice............eternally separated from Him.

That would be pure *h*e*l*l*  in my opinion!

Memmy

Offline stan peck

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« Reply #12 on: Fri Apr 22, 2005 - 14:35:47 »
I posted a similar topic on christianforums.com many months ago.  I received a reply from a theologian in australia that contended that 'forever and ever' in the greek actually was a set unit of time, unlike our minds which say, hell would go on and on..  If he is correct, then God would have to have written the bible with 'forever and ever' and all the worm stuff with the purpose of placing something in our minds about hell that would satisfy the amount of suffering that would take place.  In other words, it would be quite a bit of suffering.


see what i'm blogging about
http://www.calltodiscipleship.blogspot.com

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #13 on: Wed Apr 27, 2005 - 08:55:53 »
Hey I was reading the review of Jimmy Allen's biography and there is a (confusing to me) reference to him saying he isn't so sure about Hell being eternal punishment but that he hasn't been convinced that it is anhiliation.

Anyway there was a further mention that the Spiritual Sword folks weren't happy about his waffle but trusted that he would come to the right conclusion soon because he is a good guy or something like that.

marc

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #14 on: Wed Apr 27, 2005 - 20:58:37 »
I thought they'd given up on Jimmy Allen because of the rebaptism thing.

btw, I agree with this view of Hell--I wouldn't characterize it as punishment throughout all time, but I don't think it's annihilation.

Offline memmy

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« Reply #15 on: Wed Apr 27, 2005 - 21:40:19 »
Again, I think it would be enough to be away from God, even if there were no literal \"burning\" as some seem to believe it is.

Who here can say even if they have been away from God for any time at all (on our part/forgetting to go/thanking/asking etc. to Him), that we could ever exist without Him?

Imagine the torment of us needing Him and He is not there for us?

That is what I imagine hell to be like.

Memmy             :(

Offline Annie

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #16 on: Wed Apr 27, 2005 - 22:08:59 »
Memmy,
I agree that for me to be separated from God would be hell.  If I told people that hell is to be forever separated from God, and they don't believe in God, or just don't care, they would have no fear of hell and maybe even would prefer it.

Offline memmy

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Destroy Body & Soul in Hell
« Reply #17 on: Wed Apr 27, 2005 - 23:56:07 »
Yeah I understand but that is exactly what they will get then.

That is what free will is all about. God gives us choices, if we refuse to choose Him, then we get exactly what we choose...........total separation.

Every knee will bend, but those who do not accept His offer, will not get the chance to be with Him. We have that chance now, not after the chance is gone.

Most people when faced with eternal pain or suffering without God will surely decide to choose Him. Meaning that we may live on, but in our worst nightmare life, without God, then we would have no relief in sight.

If they don't believe in God, they won't believe in an eternal burning hell either, right?

I believe that a greater picture is painted of God when He is seen as a loving Father (our \"Daddy\") wanting to share with us His glory as in life eternal, with no pain, no hunger, and always happiness in Him forever.

Some shy away from Him because they don't understand His love for us and His wanting us to be with Him in glory. They think that if He has the authority to do anything He can click His fingers and do it for us. Well, He can but that would not be free will at all.

We need to choose Him, since afterall, He first chose us. :D

Thankfully!

Memmy

 

     
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