Author Topic: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23  (Read 4586 times)

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Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #105 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 20:13:02 »
Straight-up wrong, says Paul:

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Consider this very carefully: you said, they were all the elect, but then fell away for lack of faith and then were no longer the elect.
You cannot then say that they obtained something and then became the elect -- in that sequence.

The elect obtained something because they were the elect in the first place -- "the elect among them"; they were the elect and THEN obtained it.

If they were ALL the elect in the first place, then ALL of them should have obtained it. The reason for it is that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." Not all Israel obtained it, "but the elect among them did."

According to what you're saying, this verse should be saying that they were ALL the elect, but then when some were hardened they were no longer the elect. But that's not what it says -- it says "the elect among them" implying that not all of them were and then they obtained what they sought, "the rest" implies that the rest of them were not the elect and so were hardened.

There's so much to say about Romans 8-11 as it has all of the answers about Israel's falling away and so much of it addresses these questions about God apparently (when viewed the wrong way) failing to do what He promised with Israel as Abraham's descendants. But there sure isn't a word of it that implies a whole doctrine of "free will" -- anything but.
Yeah, I'm sure it's a good idea to base your whole theology off 3 of the most hotly disputed chapters in the Bible.

2Peter 3:15-16  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #106 on: Wed Jan 19, 2022 - 01:41:32 »
well freewill without consequences that happen immediately.... give us a mindset...i can do it and I will not feel any immediate pain. i take now pleasure over pain that may or may not be in given out in the future. I say my prayers.....i'm forgiven. people ..good people say again  live your life like what has been written , as whats in the good book. you will do well. Most of the time , and it hurts, the ones whomare spreading the good news ......there lives are in a shambles.

The youth don't get this.......its fast food , is it right or wrong. when the church says its wrong , they don't get it because there is no pain. only pleasure.

pain is given to us to help us decide what is good or bad for us.

king David didn't feel the pain of his sin until a prophet came along .

most will not feel the reward or loss until once we stand before our maker.

1 who is born into a household of loving God fearing  parents  are going to do better that the Cannibal child just striving to stay alive on remote islands , after a storm blew in and stole there crops. lol insurance companies call that a act of God.

then we have free will

likes its my choice now?  once i have tasted the goodness of God?  once he have captivated me with his presence? like i have a choice now. i have none .

i was blind but now i see.

free will to deny  that he is God ? after he revealed himself to me is like saying .....i dont believe in the sun nor the moon.

if i was a cannibal and needed and liked , was driven to eat the flesh of man. where was my choice?

now i am a born again who needs to drink his blood and eat his flesh to be spiritually alive. to be with him

now what choice do i do. eat rotten flesh or dine at his table with him?

So the kingdom is being preached . one who takes the sin of the world and gives life abundantly.

the life of Christ , eternally life removing the wages of sin....

this is the fast food of the kingdom of God. its his goodness forgiving sin then infilling us again with his life force.

when it get darker and it will ...we have to understand this . just go through the driveway again. get filled with his spirit again and again and again.

you sin , you die. you eat , you live. you see. it was once you eat you die. now you sin then you eat of him and live. im talking about your soul man being brought to life by him. Christ Jesus

most people just wan to wallow in there sins until they feel they have paid the price.




Offline Bemark

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #107 on: Wed Jan 19, 2022 - 01:52:10 »
The choice of a believer is do I live or die.

do i wallow in this stuff that i am in. and if so how long?

or eat of him and live and proclaim the goddess of God.

yes as spiritual leaders over the house of God there must be boundaries for people as well.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #108 on: Wed Jan 19, 2022 - 05:58:12 »
No no no... not at all.  Salvation is for a group - Abraham's descendants, the Israelites.

There are precious few people who are elected individually, and the Bible makes a big deal out of it when it happens (King David, John the Baptist, etc).
Good grief, Jarrod; you have bought into the Calvinist doctrine of election.  Salvation is not for a group.  Those who are saved, those individuals who believe and are baptized, become Abraham's descendants; it is not the other way around as Calvinist proclaim. Read Romans 4 again.  He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised (vv. 11-12). It is the individuals who "walk in the footsteps of the faith" who become a part of the group.  Faith is not a group thing; it is an individual thing. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith (v.13).

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #108 on: Wed Jan 19, 2022 - 05:58:12 »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #109 on: Sat Jan 22, 2022 - 08:54:04 »
I've found it so remarkable how people into "free will" will avoid the simplest thought experiment possible.

I don't use the words "everyone knows" lightly, but it actually applies in this case: EVERY functional human being, for survival purposes, understands that people's choices come out of who they are because they distinguish between someone they "know" and "trust" versus a stranger. Everyone understands that you don't trust a stranger in ways that you would someone who you've "gotten to know," as understanding who a person is allows a much more accurate prediction of what kind of choice that they will make per situation, whatever the category; the most relevant type of choice that one needs to predict from a person they "trust" is a moral one, like trusting that they are not the kind of person who would (say) choose to steal your car if you let them borrow it for something, which is to say, you also come to understand the pattern of someone's "moral" choices just like any other category of behavior.

Every functional human being simply must understand this to survive, but as soon as the "free will" discussion begins, it goes out the window. The implication is straightforward, obvious, and "everyone knows" it in reality because it's just a matter of functioning as a person: the choices that a person makes simply comes out of what kind of person they are.

And now the parable of the sower, a perfect example of a heredity-meets-environment model: two things combine to (potentially, depending on the heredity) create something completely different, like a caterpillar into a butterfly, heredity of something allows the person/thing to change completely. Jesus describes four different kinds of soil in which a seed may fall; before it falls, nothing grows, but certain soil is able to respond to the seed in such a way that the seed can grow into fruitfulness while in other kinds it cannot; the seed is the same in each case, but the soil -- or the sort of person who received the word -- is fruitful with it r not based on its condition.

But here is what is key: in this model, the seed is the same every time and the state of the soil is NOT described as fluid; heredity is NOT fluid, and the influence of the environment is the same every time, but depending on the heredity, the scattered word may or may not cause the new thing to come up and be fruitful, but if the heredity is fertile soil, a completely new thing comes to life as the person becomes born again.

Is choice excluded from this model? Not at all, but it's just not the terms of the model; choices are simply caused by the heredity of the person, cause-and-effect, and (depending on the heredity) the person can change in response to what is introduced to it by its environment. The choices that will be made in response to the word being introduced depends on the heredity of the person and so does the ensuing fruitfulness; with the example of the plant being choked by thistles, this remains part of what existed in the first place that would later hinder the productivity and growth of the word.

The Bible does not deal in hypotheticals as are the case in the above post.

Humans have one great surmounting choice - to obey the LAW of God or to reject it, to accept Jesus Christ as lord and savior or to reject Him.  This is not a hypothetical.  It is fact.

Martin Luther once wrote that humanity is like a horse.  It can choose its rider - satanic self-destruction or Godly direction by the Holy Spirit.

If there is no real choice, then what is all this discussion about?  Why is it going on if there is no choice regarding the one we choose to save us?

If there is no real choice, then why are there so many religions and churches and people willing to tell us we need to choose their particular church over all others?

Sounds like Madison Avenue to me, not the Bible.

Sounds like authoritarian dictatorial religious extremism to me, not the liberty granted by God's Holy LAW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #109 on: Sat Jan 22, 2022 - 08:54:04 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #110 on: Wed Apr 20, 2022 - 09:22:43 »
Quote
Yeah, I'm sure it's a good idea to base your whole theology off 3 of the most hotly disputed chapters in the Bible.

2Peter 3:15-16  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
WS,

And your response is a lovely confirmation that you are unable to refute what I had said. I run into similar situations when the opponent just resorts to insults -- it's affirming.

And by "affirming," I don't mean that I need affirmation that my claim is accurate; on that I never have any doubt. I mean that this sort of response reaffirms that I did a solid job in the way I made the point -- all the opponent has left is void rantings or insults, not unlike the way Stephen's opponents could only squeal, plug their ears and stone him in a rage or many situations that Jesus came across. Likewise your response is simply puff, which I appreciate a great deal, and God used you for good practice on my end.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 20, 2022 - 09:31:06 by Cally »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #111 on: Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 06:01:30 »
Without free will, the whole concept of sin is moot.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #112 on: Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 11:02:15 »
WS,

And your response is a lovely confirmation that you are unable to refute what I had said. I run into similar situations when the opponent just resorts to insults -- it's affirming.
Refute it?  I can't even understand it.  rofl

I replied only to the last bit because that was the only part I could decipher.

Jarrod