Author Topic: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23  (Read 4588 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #35 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 12:46:23 »
So you think your choice to sin originates with God.  Interesting concept you have there Cally; blaming God for all you do wrong.
What choice?

Apparently, God created a bunch of sin-bots.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #36 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 12:48:13 »
I do not "blame" God for anything. He can create each piece of pottery for it to serve its purpose however He pleases, they behave according to plan, like the ones He "bore with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction."
It seems to me that what you're proposing goes well past that.  Are you not saying that God create ALL the pots in a flawed condition?  And He sometimes sees fit to repair a few...

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #37 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 13:04:17 »
Quote
It seems to me that what you're proposing goes well past that.  Are you not saying that God create ALL the pots in a flawed condition?  And He sometimes sees fit to repair a few...

No, I am not saying that.

As far as getting clear on what I am saying, I would suggest re-reading the other posts that I made on this thread.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #38 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 13:06:13 »
What choice?

Apparently, God created a bunch of sin-bots.
Agreed.  However, I was giving him his choice of words.  It seems that he does admit to each having a "choice" but that choice is dictated by God's creating everything, whether nature or nurture, within man that leads to that choice.  The net result is as you have noted, his view is that God created a bunch of sin-bots.

But in fact that is the general view of the Calvinist types.  That is the net result of Total Depravity.  Whether or not they try to lay the blame at the feet of Adam, whatever change occurred as a result of Adam's sin must be God's doing.  No one else, including Satan, has the creative powers to alter God's creation.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #38 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 13:06:13 »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #39 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 13:12:18 »
No, I am not saying that.
That is precisely what you are saying.  And that is what the Calvinist says.  That is the false concept that they read into Romans 9.  And it is a terrible affront to God's character.  That is what I noted just previously.  The Calvinist tries to lay the blame on either Adam, himself, or Satan; but neither has the power to substantially alter the fundamental character of the human being as God created him.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #39 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 13:12:18 »

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #40 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 13:25:13 »
Quote
Agreed.  However, I was giving him his choice of words.  It seems that he does admit to each having a "choice" but that choice is dictated by God's creating everything, whether nature or nurture, within man that leads to that choice.  The net result is as you have noted, his view is that God created a bunch of sin-bots.

The only correction I'd make is that this swings the other way also:

Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. "

If you didn't believe the same thing, then you wouldn't trust/distrust people any differently whatsoever. Do you trust/distrust friends, complete strangers, and people with criminal records all equally? If not, it shows that you understand that "net result" of who they are (the combination of nature + nurture leading to what kind of person they are) is what causes their choices; you have "gotten to know them." It's the same thing with psychology in general, marketing, business, military strategies and so on -- the world goes round on the predictability of people's choices because choices originate from who each particular person is, and therefore with more knowledge of the individual, the better your success in predicting their choices.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #41 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 14:09:41 »
Cally, your view is nonsense.  Consider the scenarios that result:

1) A man is given a good nature.  He hears the gospel and accepts it and is saved.  No problem so far.

2a) A man is given a reprobate nature.  He hears the gospel, rejects it and is damned.  Seems ok. 

2b) A man is given a reprobate nature.  His nature makes him unable to understand the gospel, so he is damned.  Seems unfair, but at least it follows logically.

3) A man is given a reprobate nature.  He never hears the gospel.  He is damned.  Somewhat unfair, but again the logic at least works.

4) A man is given a good nature.  He never hears the gospel, so he never accepts it.  He is damned.  What?

That last one makes absolutely no sense.  The result here is that God elects some men, and His will to save them simply fails. 

We know this is not the case; it cannot be true.  So there is something wrong in the logic that underlies that.  You have a flaw in the foundation.  Go find it and fix it.

Jarrod

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #42 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 14:33:23 »
Quote
Cally, your view is nonsense.  Consider the scenarios that result:

1) A man is given a good nature.  He hears the gospel and accepts it and is saved.  No problem so far.

2a) A man is given a reprobate nature.  He hears the gospel, rejects it and is damned.  Seems ok.

2b) A man is given a reprobate nature.  His nature makes him unable to understand the gospel, so he is damned.  Seems unfair, but at least it follows logically.

3) A man is given a reprobate nature.  He never hears the gospel.  He is damned.  Somewhat unfair, but again the logic at least works.

4) A man is given a good nature.  He never hears the gospel, so he never accepts it.  He is damned.  What?

That last one makes absolutely no sense.  The result here is that God elects some men, and His will to save them simply fails.

We know this is not the case; it cannot be true.  So there is something wrong in the logic that underlies that.  You have a flaw in the foundation.  Go find it and fix it.


Your last issue, of those not hearing the gospel, doesn't have anything to do with the predestination question like the others do and has not been addressed yet, but it's another one that's plastered all over Scripture with the directive to spread the word. It seems like nonsense to post any particular reference to such a prevalent subject of "spreading the gospel" all over the New Testament if we are all the slightest Bible literate, but:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 - 16 You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.

I can't imagine a concept more basic for the Bible-literate, but surely there's a reason to spread the Gospel, isn't there? The "good news"?

It's a hard question with the answer found in Romans chapters 1 and 2. I don't want to paste this here but given the generally uncooperative nature of those wanting to argue (so many of the repeated appeals to day-to-day common sense just get talked over, for example), I may end up having to do that anyway. In the meantime, what you see in Romans chapter 1 and 2 refers to God's revelation to all with his "invisible qualities" -- there is your "nurture"/environment element as it were, that causes all men to be without excuse -- and a reference to conscience where some Gentiles show that the law of God is written on their hearts, which is their nature/heredity side. I would deduce that judgment follows accordingly.

Once again, that has nothing to do with the point I've been addressing and it conflates the issue, and/or your protest sounds like a remarkable ignorance of why some thought it worthwhile to make an effort to spread the gospel, but that's a perfectly fine question anyway, and that's what I see.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #43 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 18:08:56 »
Cally, your view is nonsense.
Amen!

Halleluiah!

Hear, Hear!

::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

Right on!

Preach it, Brother!


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #43 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 18:08:56 »

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #44 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 20:46:56 »
Quote
Right on!

Preach it, Brother!

4WD, so, so desperate. You have to talk over every point, throw insults, and circle the wagons to get away from acknowledging something you don't like to hear. It all reeks of the exact same kind of reaction from a pagan towards the truth -- totally indistinguishable.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 20:52:46 by Cally »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #45 on: Thu Nov 11, 2021 - 05:18:30 »
4WD, so, so desperate. You have to talk over every point, throw insults, and circle the wagons to get away from acknowledging something you don't like to hear. It all reeks of the exact same kind of reaction from a pagan towards the truth -- totally indistinguishable.
No, not desperate at all; just expressing agreement with an obvious response by another to your nonsensical view.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #46 on: Fri Nov 12, 2021 - 06:33:27 »
You're saying, that FIRST a person has to be saved, given a new heart  AND THEN they can understand the bible.
Correct.
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
What do you think I'm trying to say? Salvation comes FIRST and then the NEW MAN
Not quite correct, let me explain why.

Regeneration comes first, at which time God creates a new man within us, from whence we get the phrase BORN again.
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
is formed in us by the words we read in the bible.
This is incorrect. The word of God has no affect upon a man dead in trespasses and sin, he must be given spiritual life, before he can hear, see, and understand any spiritual truth. The new man created IN him gives him this power.
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
The NEW MAN IS the SECOND BIRTH.
Correct.
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
What do you think Paul is trying to birth in these SAVED Galatians? These are SAVED Galatians and Christ is not yet formed in them.

Gal 4:19  My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Notice the word~again Paul again affectionately sought to save (practically speaking) these Gentile converts through tender gentleness.

He calls them his little children, because he had been their first teacher in the gospel, under whose ministry they had been converted (not regenerated, that's the work of the Spirit of ALONE) to Christianity, like the Corinthians (Ist Corinthians 4:14-16).

It is possible to lose Jesus Christ and need to have him formed in you again~in your knowledge and understanding. This language has nothing to do with losing eternal life and the need to be born again.

Paul had converted these Gentiles to full trust in Christ for eternal salvation, and now he was laboring to do it all over again, since they had fallen for the bewitching lies of heretics.

Though birth is used here, the new birth or regeneration is not under consideration at all, for Paul does not fear the loss of vital salvation by these brethren, only their understanding (See Galatians 5:4).

He did not regenerate them the first time, and he could not do it again (John 1:13; 3:8)! If anyone forces regeneration into Ist Corinthians 4:15, then we will bring them here, which requires them to preach regeneration, un-regeneration, and regeneration again by a mere man! How foolish!
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
"The only sense one can give 1st Peter 1:23 and at the same time have a perfect flow of truth with all scriptures which speak of being born again or being saved from sin and condemnation". That's ABSOLUTELY not true.
Then prove I'm not understanding 1st Peter 1:23. Give me your understanding of 1st Peter 1:23 with scriptures supporting your understanding as I did above.
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
You just admitted that you don't care what the words actually say because  in your version of salvation and the 2nd birth it doesn't make sense . Think about that RB, you're ignoring the words of the bible and comforming those words to your current level of understanding rather than adjusting your current understanding to conform to the words of the bible.
Not sure what you are attempting to say~you need to be clearer. Show me with my quote what you are saying. I did take 1st Petr 1:23 and use other scriptures to give the biblical sense that would flow with the doctrine that the new birth is a birth of the Spirit of God APART from all means including the word of God as a source of the new birth. The Bible is our source of INFORMATION concerning how we are born again, it is NOT the means thereof~the new birth is by God's almighty power, the same power used in resurrecting His Son from the dead. (See Ephesians 1:19,20)
Quote from: Rob on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27
The only sense one can give 1st Peter 1:23 is that were are born again by the word of God and that has absolute perfect flow of truth with the bible and if it didn't you would post verses that prove your point but you didn't.
Rob, I did give the biblical sense of 1st Peter 1:23 here: Reply # 28 Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 08:14:53 beginning reading at 1 Peter 1:23-25 down to the end of the post.

I rushed this a bit, so forgive my typing errors.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 14, 2021 - 11:49:56 by RB »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #47 on: Fri Nov 12, 2021 - 09:14:59 »
Correct.
Such injustice and cruelty you ascribe to God.

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #48 on: Sun Nov 14, 2021 - 09:31:25 »
Quote
No, not desperate at all; just expressing agreement with an obvious response by another to your nonsensical view.

The only part you showed to comprehend was just the negativity with absolutely no depth of thought for anything else in the entire discussion. Basically like being one in this mob:

Acts 7:57
Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;


All of your reactions amount to this: talking over the point, plugging your ears and screaming in a rage in spite of absolutely no Scripture supporting your outlooks, and not even really paying attention to the people with whom you're circling the wagons except for the negativity,. I fully addressed what was actually said in the reply even though it completely confused the subject, but you keep showing that the actual reason and points are unimportant.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #49 on: Sun Nov 14, 2021 - 11:29:53 »
I fully addressed what was actually said in the reply even though it completely confused the subject, but you keep showing that the actual reason and points are unimportant.
Nah, you just keep rolling out your complete and total denseness on the subject of free will.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17472
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #50 on: Mon Nov 15, 2021 - 05:13:55 »
This is merely an issue of illiteracy as this is addressed by Paul, whoever would make such a protest (as we are seeing people protest now with the "free will" theology that they are forcing into Scripture)
I find that concept of someone "forcing" free will into scripture to be laughable.  It is quite the other way around. 

All thru the Hebrew scriptures GOD tells His people to choose. And our Lord did not change that.  Indeed, had He taught against the free will that Moses and the Hebrew Prophets taught He would have been counted a sinner and His atoning death would have been rendered meaningless.  So it is the idea (based on so-called "total depravity") that man does NOT have a choice that is being forced into scripture.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #51 on: Tue Nov 16, 2021 - 12:17:48 »
I find that concept of someone "forcing" free will into scripture to be laughable.  It is quite the other way around. 

All thru the Hebrew scriptures GOD tells His people to choose. And our Lord did not change that.  Indeed, had He taught against the free will that Moses and the Hebrew Prophets taught He would have been counted a sinner and His atoning death would have been rendered meaningless.  So it is the idea (based on so-called "total depravity") that man does NOT have a choice that is being forced into scripture.
Indeed. 

The book of Deuteronomy is largely built around the declaration of the covenant promises and curses, and the people are called upon to choose to follow the covenant and receive its blessings.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live (30:19)

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #52 on: Wed Nov 17, 2021 - 11:32:43 »
Quote
Nah, you just keep rolling out your complete and total denseness on the subject of free will.

Scripture does not teach it, period.

It portrays the common, day-to-day occurrence of people making choices just like we experience it every day. There is literally no one who doesn't acknowledge that people make choices. The "free will" theology, insofar as it negates that God is the origin and therefore the cause of the resulting choices, is not taught.

Quoting Scriptures containing the word "choice" to negate determinism demonstrates a concept of "god" who simply exists along with people, not actually being their creator and origin. If you acknowledge that God is creator of all things and all people, then the cause-and-effect behind choices absolutely must trace back to God; that is fully acknowledging choices, but not "free will" hand-waves away the relationship between the creation and the creator. There is no "concept" to be taught, literally everyone understands choices.

But as so many are simply talking over: you believe in determinism too but are just refusing to acknowledge it. Otherwise you'd trust and distrust everyone equally and never attribute the choices people make to the person making it.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #53 on: Wed Nov 17, 2021 - 13:30:54 »
Scripture does not teach it, period.
Wow.

I literally just outlined the book of Deuteronomy doing so.  I don't know how much clearer it can get.  Israel was elected and brought out of Egypt by the hand of God.  They went to meet God at Mt Sinai, they all cut the covenant in literal blood.  There is no way to say that they weren't elect.  They are the very definition of elect.

And yet, a scant few chapters later, these elect still have a choice to uphold the covenant or not.  They are promised death and perdition if they don't.  And yet, most of them don't!  They worship idols and mix with the Canaanites, they backslide and suffer defeats and death and never ever ever fully take their inheritance!

Offline Cally

  • I am Christian. The rest is details.
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4714
  • Manna: 152
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #54 on: Wed Nov 17, 2021 - 14:24:50 »
Quote
I literally just outlined the book of Deuteronomy doing so.

To borrow your words: "Wow." I explained dozens of times on this thread that nobody denies that there's such a thing as choices. Has this entire discussion gone that much over your head? Who are these people who are unaware that God gave commands that people chose not to follow?

Please re-read this entire thread -- like all of it. You might consider saying something in acknowledgement of what is actually said, which is what everyone saying "free will" simply isn't doing and talking over every single point that was made -- obviously if you think that this is the issue.

As it is, it's as if you haven't read a single word since you're still acting like I (or anyone, really) somehow isn't aware that God gave commands and people chose not to follow them. All of the other ideas going along with "free will" do not have anything to do with that, but rather try to negate that God is the creator of people in general and therefore the original cause of what everything does and how it chooses -- that was the whole nature/nurture or heredity/environment equation.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 17, 2021 - 14:43:55 by Cally »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #55 on: Wed Nov 17, 2021 - 16:09:15 »
Cally,

Yes, you keep saying the same thing over and over again.  It completely misses the points that others are making.  It isn't some trump card that negates every other argument.  Try reading someone else's argument rather than just repeating your own. 

1) Post-exodus Israel was clearly the elect.  The Bible says so over and over.

2) Yet some of them (almost all of them, really) failed to uphold the covenant and perished as a result.

How did that happen?  Don't say 'they made a choice.'  That's a given.  Look at what underlies that choice.

You have claimed that God pre-determines the natures and nurtures of men in such a way that they will choose God or against God.  Were these Israelites elected against?  No!  Such a thing is impossible.  They cannot be both the elect and elected against.

It's only possible because their will WAS free.  God elected them, literally hand-picked them and brought them out of Egypt, and they STILL managed to reject God and perish.

Jarrod

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #56 on: Thu Nov 18, 2021 - 05:03:27 »
Israel as a nation was elected of God to be the source of God being among them and all the benefits that come with Him being so, yet there was a "secret election of grace" among the nation of Israel, these alone were the very elect of God who loved and kept his commandments, much like the church in our day~not all, well, not even most are God's very elect, only a very small remnant among them as it was in the OT. Romans 9:1-11
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 18, 2021 - 07:49:42 by RB »

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #57 on: Thu Nov 18, 2021 - 06:34:55 »
There is not one word in Romans 9:1-11 about any "secret election of grace";  nor is even the concept that you attach to that "secret election of grace" there either. First of all, the KJV puts the parentheses in the wrong place.  The parenthetical phrase is, or should be, (that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth). Then pulling out the parenthetical phrase we see that what is said is  For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Most will agree that what is being revealed to Rebecca is about the nations formed from Jacob and Esau and not about Jacob and Esau personally.  We know this by going back to the original in Genesis 25: 19-28.  God tells Rebecca that " Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. " (v.23)

Then back to the parenthetical phrase;  in this comment Paul is explaining why ("in order that") God's choice of Jacob, and thus the choice of the nation Israel, was unconditional (v.11a), namely so that His purpose according to election might not fail. What was that purpose for choosing one or the other of the twins? It was the same purpose He had for choosing Abraham in the first place and then Isaac. It was the purpose expressed when God first made His covenant with Abraham; "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. " (Gen 12:3) That purpose was fulfilled with the birth of the Messiah (Rom 9:5b; see also Acts 13:32-33).

How this applies to the issue under discussion should be clear enough. At stake here is God's faithfulness in His dealings with the Jews.  How could He shower them with the covenant blessings of 9:4-5 and allow them to be last at the same time? The answer is that the covenant did not include a promise of individual salvation for all Jews; it was limited to God's special use of the nation of Israel as the conduit for bringing Christ into the world. Paul's argument here is that God determined that He was going to do this, regardless of whether any individual Jews were saved.  Just as "God's purpose in election" did not depend upon the spiritual status, i.e., salvation, of the twin He chose from Rebecca's womb, so also it did not depend upon the salvation status of the Jews in Paul's day.

It is quite clear here that God's purpose of choosing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob here is to bring Jesus Christ into the world and not of saving them personally.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10690
  • Manna: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #58 on: Thu Nov 18, 2021 - 07:57:33 »
There is not one word in Romans 9:1-11 about any "secret election of grace";  nor is even the concept that you attach to that "secret election of grace" there either.
I'll come back to prove that there was an election among the elect nation of the Jews. I have some meetings, and then I shall return to consider your post.

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #59 on: Thu Nov 18, 2021 - 08:31:11 »
I'll come back to prove that there was an election among the elect nation of the Jews. I have some meetings, and then I shall return to consider your post.
I have no argument that there were elect individuals saved by grace among the elect nation of the Jews.  But Romans 9 does not deal with elect individuals saved by grace.  It is not the elect individuals saved by grace that are described as clay in the potter's hands to save some and not others. Neither salvation nor condemnation are actions that can be observed by others.  Therefore such actions are not actions in which God, "wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory" (vv.22-23).  The power over the clay to "show His wrath and make His power known" can only be the power exercised in this existing physical realm; the power exercised in the election for service, wholly independent from His actions of salvation.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #60 on: Thu Nov 18, 2021 - 12:34:10 »
Israel as a nation was elected of God to be the source of God being among them and all the benefits that come with Him being so, yet there was a "secret election of grace" among the nation of Israel, these alone were the very elect of God who loved and kept his commandments, much like the church in our day~not all, well, not even most are God's very elect, only a very small remnant among them as it was in the OT. Romans 9:1-11
The elect of the elect?  That's a new one to me.

Romans 9...

Looking at the chapter, the mention there of election refers to the election of Jacob, and the non-election of Esau.  This is clear in verses 12-13.  You may have stopped a few verses short, I see you only referenced up to verse 11.

You can take that logic and apply it to the earlier verses in the chapter, I think... Isaac was elect, and not Ishmael.  Paul states this.

You can take that logic and apply it to the subsequent generations as well.  Paul doesn't say that here exactly, but he does establish a pattern over several generations in which some in each generation are elect and others are not.  I'll buy that.

What you can't do, is take that and apply it to the group that came out of Egypt (which is who we were talking about).  They're special.  Here's why:

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1Corinthians 10:1-4)

Every single individual in that generation was baptized together at once.  This event was the founding of Israel.  They ALL partook of Christ, Paul says so explicitly.  And yet...

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they lusted. 

Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
Neither commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.  Therefore let him that judges himself to have standing take heed, lest he fall.  (1Corinthians 10:5-12)


Did you get that?  The Israelites in the Sinai were elected, and yet Paul mentions 4 occasions in which groups of them lost their standing.  And Paul applies this to the Corinthians!  He warns them of the danger of falling from grace.

There are no levels of election.  Election is binary - one is either elect, or not.  The Bible does teach that there was a remnant of faithful within Israel during times of national wickedness.  Perhaps this is what you are thinking of?  But the remnant are not the 'elect of the elect.'  They are simply the elect. 

The rest of those who were nominally Israel, but spiritually wicked, LOST THEIR STANDING.  They started off as part of the elect, but they changed their status.  They fell from grace.

Finally, let's remember that election is tied to heredity.  To think of election in terms of God electing (or dis-electing) each individual from eternity past is antithetical with Hebrew thought.  The Bible does not approach the topic that way.  The elect are Abraham's children.  In Isaac shall they be reckoned.  Israel is so-called firstly because they are the descendants of a man named Israel.

But it's possible to change one's heredity.  A stranger can be adopted and become a son; a son can be dis-owned and lose his status.

The elect is not a group of pre-elected individuals.  The elect is Israel; the sons of Israel.

It's possible for one to start out a stranger, and become part of the elect group.  It's possible for one to start out an elect son, and leave the family.

Jarrod

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #61 on: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 06:09:35 »
The elect of the elect?  That's a new one to me.
It shouldn't be.  There is election for service and there is election for salvation.  The nation Israel was an elected [chosen] nation.  That election was for service.  There were individuals within that nation that formed the "Remnant" that were saved, i.e., elected for salvation (Rom 9:27).
Romans 9...

Looking at the chapter, the mention there of election refers to the election of Jacob, and the non-election of Esau.

But that election speaks only of God's election of Jacob for service, not for salvation.  And in the same way Esau was elected (chosen) for service also.  His descendants became the nation of the Edomites just as Jacobs descendants became the nation of the Israelites. But in neither case is the election of Romans 9 the election for salvation of either Jacob or Esau. You need to look elsewhere to confirm whether either Jacob or Esau were saved. Note that Paul says in Romans 9 that Pharaoh was one of God's elect, an elect for service (v.17).

The real problem in all of this is that while God's choosing an individual, a tribe or a nation for service is declared in Romans 9 to be His sovereign choice independent of what they might have wanted or might have done (vv.15,16,18), no such statement is ever given concerning God's choosing an individual for salvation.  That is the fundamental error of the Calvinistic rendering of Romans 9.

It would benefit most if the word "election" were changed to "selection" or "choice".  Once again, a special [unbiblical] meaning has been attached to the word elect by those holding to the Calvinist theology. That rendering  of "election" wrongfully shades the meaning in nearly every place it occurs. And you have yielded to that wrongfully shaded meaning in your post.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 06:22:52 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17472
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #62 on: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 06:42:19 »
Quote from: 4WD
There is election for service and there is election for salvation.
Wow.  We have some serious eisegesis going on here. 

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #63 on: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 06:54:17 »
Wow.  We have some serious eisegesis going on here.
Perhaps you could explain that.

Was Pharaoh chosen, selected, elected for something?  If so for what? 

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #64 on: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 10:00:35 »
No response, DaveW?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #65 on: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 13:03:07 »
I don't know how to respond to that.  It seems like you just made something up.  ::shrug::

Maybe you could point out where you're getting this doctrine from, and we can break it down starting from that point?

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #66 on: Fri Nov 19, 2021 - 14:06:25 »
I don't know how to respond to that.  It seems like you just made something up.  ::shrug::
Is that for DaveW or me? 

Online 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13652
  • Manna: 332
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #67 on: Sun Nov 21, 2021 - 05:21:21 »
Still nothing but a Huh Uh from either DaveW or Wycliffes_Shillelagh.

Offline Choir Loft

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 632
  • Manna: 6
  • Gender: Male
  • REPENT - the hour of judgment is upon us
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #68 on: Sun Nov 21, 2021 - 12:59:36 »
Actually, that would not be "sin," but transgression.  They are different.

SIN is active disobedience of God's will.   Transgression is by definition almost the same except that it was once used by clerics to fog the issue of WICKEDNESS.  Clerics don't use it any more because they're busy promoting the lie that God loves everybody's filth and that we don't even need to worry about repentance for it.  Clerics just want their money.  They care nothing about spiritual responsibility.

To be a transgressor doesn't sound as bad as being called a SINNER.   The latter carries a connotation of evil, which such a term ought to do.  Transgressor is technically the same, but in the ear of the listener carries no special hook or guilt with it.   SIN does.

The LAW defines SIN.  It's purpose is to convince the SINNER of God's point of view regarding human actions and attitudes. 
The LAW tells us God's plan of redemption and tells us we CAN and MUST avail ourselves of His provision for removal of guilt. 
The LAW says it isn't impossible to keep the LAW and the LAW says God expects us to do so.

Christians, who really don't give a damn about God, are far too busy with their own filth and perversions to bother to recognize the efficacy and requirement of the LAW.   Instead we boast "the devil made me do it" or "I'm better than the other SOB who deserves judgment".   Christians hate the LAW or anything related to Jews, including Jesus Christ who most don't realize IS a Jew.

The LAW is the basis and pattern for God's pattern of redemption.  Nobody can be saved apart from it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 21, 2021 - 13:02:18 by Choir Loft »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14699
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #69 on: Sun Nov 21, 2021 - 22:04:41 »
Still nothing but a Huh Uh from either DaveW or Wycliffes_Shillelagh.
You just kind of made something up that the Bible doesn't talk about at all.  You may as well have contended that salvation is hand-delivered in festive boxes at the holidays by pygmy puffs.

There isn't a pressing need to say much of anything about it, for the same reason there isn't a need to refute the idea of salvation-by-pygmy-puffs.  ::shrug::