Author Topic: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23  (Read 4589 times)

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Online 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #70 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 04:29:21 »
You just kind of made something up that the Bible doesn't talk about at all.  You may as well have contended that salvation is hand-delivered in festive boxes at the holidays by pygmy puffs.
What do you think I just made up that the Bible doesn't talk about at all?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #71 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 06:03:20 »
SIN is active disobedience of God's will.   Transgression is by definition almost the same except that it was once used by clerics to fog the issue of WICKEDNESS.  Clerics don't use it any more because they're busy promoting the lie that God loves everybody's filth and that we don't even need to worry about repentance for it.  Clerics just want their money.  They care nothing about spiritual responsibility.

To be a transgressor doesn't sound as bad as being called a SINNER.   The latter carries a connotation of evil, which such a term ought to do.  Transgressor is technically the same, but in the ear of the listener carries no special hook or guilt with it.   SIN does.

The LAW defines SIN.  It's purpose is to convince the SINNER of God's point of view regarding human actions and attitudes. 
The LAW tells us God's plan of redemption and tells us we CAN and MUST avail ourselves of His provision for removal of guilt. 
The LAW says it isn't impossible to keep the LAW and the LAW says God expects us to do so.

Christians, who really don't give a damn about God, are far too busy with their own filth and perversions to bother to recognize the efficacy and requirement of the LAW.   Instead we boast "the devil made me do it" or "I'm better than the other SOB who deserves judgment".   Christians hate the LAW or anything related to Jews, including Jesus Christ who most don't realize IS a Jew.

The LAW is the basis and pattern for God's pattern of redemption.  Nobody can be saved apart from it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
In your "hollering from the choir loft," take a few minutes to look up what the original Hebrew and Greek words translated "sin" mean, and then look up what the English word meant in the 1500s.  If you don't have time, I will give you the answer: they were all archery terms meaning to aim at a target and shoot, but to miss the "mark" or the bulls eye. They did NOT mean to intentionally disobey.  That would be "Transgression."

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #72 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 08:06:45 »
What do you think I just made up that the Bible doesn't talk about at all?
You said that Israel was NOT elect with regards to salvation, which is disprovable.

But really just creating some fictitious distinction between elections.  There aren't multiple elections, unless you're counting 'elected against' as a separate thing.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #73 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 08:50:09 »
You said that Israel was NOT elect with regards to salvation, which is disprovable.
National Israel was not saved; yet national Israel was a chosen, i.e., elect, people (Duet 26:17-19).  Was that spoken of only the remnant who were saved?  I don't think so.  The whole chapter of Romans 9 was a declaration by Paul that the nation was chosen for a purpose, such as he listed in verses 4 and 5. And yet though they were all Israelites (v.4), they were not all saved.  There are two Israels, national Israel and spiritual Israel. Some of those of spiritual Israel were also of national Israel. Paul called them the remnant (v.27).  The election of national Israel and the election of spiritual Israel are separate and distinct elections. I am surprised that you take issue with that.

The only real question with respect to Romans 9 is that when Paul speaks of God's power to mold the clay, was that "molding" dealing with national Israel or spiritual Israel.  It seems clear enough to me that he was speaking of national Israel.
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 08:55:14 by 4WD »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #73 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 08:50:09 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #74 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 09:52:27 »
There are two Israels, national Israel and spiritual Israel.
This is off topic, but there is no such thing biblically as a "spiritual Israel."  That is a made up fiction.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #74 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 09:52:27 »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #75 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 10:26:40 »
This is off topic, but there is no such thing biblically as a "spiritual Israel."  That is a made up fiction.
Who are the Israelites that Paul referred to in Romans 9:4? Are they not all descended from Israel?  Are they not all Paul's  kinsmen according to the flesh?  Who then are they of whom Paul said that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (v.6)?

By your argument there is no such thin\g biblically as "national Israel" or "ethnic Israel".  But no matter what words you want to object to, there clearly are two separate Israels spoken of in Romans 9.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #76 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 18:25:13 »
This is off topic, but there is no such thing biblically as a "spiritual Israel."  That is a made up fiction.
Biblically, there's just Israel, and not-Israel.

Also Biblically, paternity is reckoned by looking at behavior.  Abraham's children are those who act like Abraham; not those with meticulously put together genealogies.

Historically, there have been people who self-identified as "Israel," but whose actions say they are not.  Because of this, there has been a need to differentiate the true Israelites from the impostors.  Hence the term "spiritual Israel."  If you'd prefer, just think of it as "actually Israel."

Jarrod

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #77 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 18:28:08 »
National Israel was not saved; yet national Israel was a chosen, i.e., elect, people (Duet 26:17-19).  Was that spoken of only the remnant who were saved?  I don't think so.  The whole chapter of Romans 9 was a declaration by Paul that the nation was chosen for a purpose, such as he listed in verses 4 and 5. And yet though they were all Israelites (v.4), they were not all saved.  There are two Israels, national Israel and spiritual Israel. Some of those of spiritual Israel were also of national Israel. Paul called them the remnant (v.27).  The election of national Israel and the election of spiritual Israel are separate and distinct elections. I am surprised that you take issue with that.

The only real question with respect to Romans 9 is that when Paul speaks of God's power to mold the clay, was that "molding" dealing with national Israel or spiritual Israel.  It seems clear enough to me that he was speaking of national Israel.
And yet, just 2 chapters later, Paul says,

And so all Israel shall be saved:

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #78 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 18:39:40 »
...though they were all Israelites (v.4), they were not all saved.
Well, the ones who weren't saved were a combination of people who were either (a) never really Israelites, or (b) were once Israelites but became something else.

There are two Israels, national Israel and spiritual Israel. Some of those of spiritual Israel were also of national Israel. Paul called them the remnant (v.27).  The election of national Israel and the election of spiritual Israel are separate and distinct elections. I am surprised that you take issue with that.
There is one real Israel - the ones who act like Abraham.  The ones who don't... they aren't Israel at all, despite what they might call themselves.  Jesus said they were no children of Abraham's, and that their true father was the devil.  Pseudo-Israel or False Israel might be better names.

As for National Israel, it has always been a mixture of the true and false, the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats.  There was a sorting in the late 1st century and early 2nd century.  After that, there was no such thing as National Israel until very recently.  The re-established nation of Israel is like the old one - a hodgepodge of mostly apostates, with a sprinkling of people who are actually attached to THE ROOT.

Jarrod

P.S.  Why is it that 60% of all questionable theology is supported from the same few chapters in Romans?

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #78 on: Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 18:39:40 »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #79 on: Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 05:00:25 »
And yet, just 2 chapters later, Paul says,

And so all Israel shall be saved:

Yes, spiritual Israel.  If you don't like the designation spiritual Israel, then all Israel that shall be saved are the "children of the promise" (v,8).  Also if you prefer, you can differentiate between Israelites (v,4), where Israelites designate all who are descended from Israel (v.6), and those who belong to Israel (v.6).  It is just easier and just as clear to designate all who are descended from Israel as national or ethical Israel and the children of the promise as spiritual Israel.

Nevertheless, the whole point of Romans 9 is that the Israelites, all those who descended from Israel, constituted a chosen, an elect, nation (Duet 26:17-19).  The reason for God's choosing (electing) the Israelites was not to save them; but rather to bring the Christ who is God over all (vv.1-5).  The mercy and compassion spoken of in verse 15 concerns God's dealing with the Israelites for the purpose of bringing the Christ: Rom 9:17  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #80 on: Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 05:08:27 »
Well, the ones who weren't saved were a combination of people who were either (a) never really Israelites, or (b) were once Israelites but became something else.
Not true.  The great sorrow and anguish in Paul's heart was for Israelites (vv. 2,4).  "to them [the Israelites] belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them [the Israelites] belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. "

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #81 on: Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 05:22:39 »
P.S.  Why is it that 60% of all questionable theology is supported from the same few chapters in Romans?
Not 60% of all questionable theology, but perhaps 60% of all questionable soteriology comes from a few chapters in Romans.  Why that might be is perhaps because 60%, or more, of all soteriology is found in Romans and it gets interpreted through the lens of previously inculcated bad soteriology.  And 60%, or more, of that previously inculcated bad soteriology derives from the false premise of Total Depravity.  Thus Total Depravity is read into verses like Romans 9:16, not deduced from them.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #82 on: Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 05:44:35 »
And yet, just 2 chapters later, Paul says,

And so all Israel shall be saved:
Rom 11:26a
and so all Israel will be saved;


And if you notice, the Israel Paul is writing about is NOT saved:

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #83 on: Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 14:31:42 »
It is just easier and just as clear to designate all who are descended from Israel as national or ethical Israel and the children of the promise as spiritual Israel.
The problem there is that the Bible very clearly states that those who apostatize cease to be the descendants of Israel.  They are literally disowned.  The branches are pruned.  They are no longer Israel's descendants (if in fact they ever were, Israel has been a mixed group for a very long time.)

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #84 on: Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 14:45:31 »
Paul calls them Israelites, his brothers, his kinsmen according to the flesh (v.3). Also one cannot cease to be a descendent in the flesh; that is a done deal.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #85 on: Wed Nov 24, 2021 - 10:29:20 »
Paul calls them Israelites, his brothers, his kinsmen according to the flesh (v.3). Also one cannot cease to be a descendent in the flesh; that is a done deal.
It ties back into what I was saying in the other topic, which you can't seem to understand there, either.

It's true that one cannot change their flesh, the human material they are made from.  This matters very little.  The Bible does not reckon heredity according to the flesh.  Not at all.  Never.

What is dealt with there is the training of the man, his mental attributes and upbringing, the principles in which he believes.  These CAN be changed.  A man may reject the path on which he was nurtured, and choose his own path, his own principles, his own beliefs.

The Bible regards such a change as a change of paternity.  To reject one's upbringing and to believe in a different set of values is to reject one's father, and to gain a new father.

For Gentiles who heard the word and believed, this meant that they gained Abraham as a father.  They became Israelites.  They were "grafted in."

For Israelites who grew up under the tutelage of the Law, and rejected it or willfully subverted it, this meant that they lost Abraham as a father.  They became "children of the devil," per Jesus (John 8).  They were "pruned."  Consider the words of John the Baptist:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (Matthew 3)

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #86 on: Tue Nov 30, 2021 - 05:33:40 »
When John the Baptist declared that " And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' " (Matt 3:9), he wasn't talking about descendants or heredity.  In Romans 9 Paul was speaking of his physical kinsmen, the Israelites, the descendants of Israel and thus of Abraham (v.4).  That is Paul's whole point in Romans 9, namely, that chosen by God for service in His intended purpose is not a road to salvation.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #87 on: Tue Nov 30, 2021 - 12:42:54 »
When John the Baptist declared that " And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' " (Matt 3:9), he wasn't talking about descendants or heredity.
What?  Yeah he definitely was!

That's why he called them "generation of vipers."  That's why he alluded to God creating OTHER descendants for Abraham.

In Romans 9 Paul was speaking of his physical kinsmen, the Israelites, the descendants of Israel and thus of Abraham (v.4).  That is Paul's whole point in Romans 9, namely, that chosen by God for service in His intended purpose is not a road to salvation.
I don't really want to get into a Romans 8-11 argument.  Nobody can seem to agree on what those chapters teach exactly. 

There's 1,189 chapters in the Bible, and about 1,180 of them agree with regards to salvation.  Let's not force the 1,180 to match the 9.  Let's do the other way round, okay?

Jarrod
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 30, 2021 - 13:10:57 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #88 on: Tue Nov 30, 2021 - 12:52:10 »
 I see no problem with the 9 matching up perfectly with your other 1180. If you think they don't, then the problem is you not me.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #89 on: Tue Nov 30, 2021 - 13:18:43 »
I see no problem with the 9 matching up perfectly with your other 1180. If you think they don't, then the problem is you not me.
I don't think they necessarily disagree. 

I just think most bad theology happens to come out of the same few suspects - Romans 8-11, Ephesians 2, 1Thessalonians 4, 1Corinthians 15, Hebrews 7, and Revelation 20.  It's probably fair to say that these chapters are harder to understand than most...

As also in all [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things; in which some things are hard to understand, which those that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2Peter 3:16)

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #90 on: Tue Nov 30, 2021 - 13:23:58 »
I mostly agree with you on that.  However, I think the bad theology does not come out of those passages; rather the bad theology goes into those passages.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #91 on: Thu Dec 02, 2021 - 09:03:13 »
In your "hollering from the choir loft," take a few minutes to look up what the original Hebrew and Greek words translated "sin" mean, and then look up what the English word meant in the 1500s.  If you don't have time, I will give you the answer: they were all archery terms meaning to aim at a target and shoot, but to miss the "mark" or the bulls eye. They did NOT mean to intentionally disobey.  That would be "Transgression."

Are we justifying SIN by attempting to qualify the act with five hundred year old terms?  MY POINT is that modern clerics will do ANYTHING or say ANYTHING to justify SIN to their congregations so as to milk them of their contribution$.  They don't care about spiritual responsibility.

"I preach happy talk to fill seats." - a quote of a local leader during a religious service here in west central Florida

Are we shooting arrows at a target or picking at nits?   I suspect the latter is the issue - an attempt to fog the true meaning of deliberate disobedience of God's Will.

The penalty for SIN is death.

If we're shooting arrows at a target and miss what is the penalty for missing?  The penalty for missing a target is simply that the shooter won't win the tournament.   The penalty for SIN is death.   (Romans 6:23) The penalty and the risk is quite different.

I can go even further with this.

God considers PASSIVE INDIFFERENCE to be the same as SIN.  (Revelation 3:16)

American Christians are guilty of the SIN of passive indifference, which is equal in God's mind to ACTIVE MALICE.  Indeed our culture now expresses with pride and arrogance those attitudes and words and actions that despise God's Holy LAW, God's NAME and God's gift of redemption.  American culture is proud of SIN. 

God does not hear the prayers of SINNERS (Job 35:12 & John 9:31) 

Are we confusing MISTAKES with SIN?  Is a child who tries to learn to ride a bicycle and falls to the ground guilty of SIN or a simple mistake?  Mistakes are good because we learn from them.  SINs kill us.

Church leaders are guilty of spiritual IRRESPONSIBILITY when they fail to preach repentance of SIN.  Several major denominations in America have already denied God's Word and rejected this precept among others.   To them God's Word speaks clearly;

I will no longer shepherd you. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish; and let those who remain devour one another’s flesh.”  - Zechariah 11:9

The church is Ichabod - the spirit has departed.  1 Samuel 4:21

Why is the church and our country in decline?  It's because of deliberate actionable SIN.  We aren't missing the target.  We are refusing to aim at all. 
THIS IS the nature of SIN.

Jesus declares in John 3:19 that personal refusal is self-imposed judgment.  It isn't necessary for saints to judge the wicked BECAUSE THEY JUDGE THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF GRACE TO BE SAVED.

SIN = DEATH   

It's not a case of bad aim.   Let's focus on real issues instead of picking at obsolete points of verbiage.   We get closer to God when we understand clear words clearly.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 02, 2021 - 09:07:01 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #92 on: Thu Dec 02, 2021 - 09:38:33 »
Are we justifying SIN by attempting to qualify the act with five hundred year old terms? 
I am justifying nothing.  That shrinks the definition. I am EXPANDING the definition.

Quote
Are we shooting arrows at a target or picking at nits?   I suspect the latter is the issue - an attempt to fog the true meaning of deliberate disobedience of God's Will.
Deliberate disobedience is not just sin, it is TRANSGRESSION, which is worse.

Trying to obey but missing it, falling short is SIN. PERIOD.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Quote
The penalty for SIN is death.

If we're shooting arrows at a target and miss what is the penalty for missing?

Death.  as you said: The penalty for SIN is death.   (Romans 6:23)

Quote
God considers PASSIVE INDIFFERENCE to be the same as SIN.  (Revelation 3:16)
American Christians are guilty of the SIN of passive indifference, which is equal in God's mind to ACTIVE MALICE.  Indeed our culture now expresses with pride and arrogance those attitudes and words and actions that despise God's Holy LAW, God's NAME and God's gift of redemption.  American culture is proud of SIN.

Not "same as," but willful disobedience.  Transgression. Worse than sin.

Quote
God does not hear the prayers of SINNERS (Job 35:12 & John 9:31) 
Interesting that you take a person that got it wrong by accusing Job of bringing his disaster on himself by his own sin, and a Pharisee who is trying to condemn our Lord as authoritative in their statements.

If God never hears the prayer of sinners, then no prayers of repentance were ever heard.

Quote
Are we confusing MISTAKES with SIN? 
By the definitions of chatah (OT) and hamarta (NT) every mistake IS a sin.

Quote
Church leaders are guilty of spiritual IRRESPONSIBILITY when they fail to preach repentance of SIN.  Several major denominations in America have already denied God's Word and rejected this precept among others.
   
Absolutely.  But most of them have no clue what repentance even is, let alone how to do it.


Quote
Why is the church and our country in decline?  It's because of deliberate actionable SIN.  We aren't missing the target.  We are refusing to aim at all.  THIS IS the nature of SIN.
Actually that is the nature of transgression, which is worse than sin.
Quote
Let's focus on real issues instead of picking at obsolete points of verbiage. 
The Word of God concerning Transgression is "obsolete? ? ?"

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #93 on: Thu Dec 02, 2021 - 14:44:00 »
I am justifying nothing.  That shrinks the definition. I am EXPANDING the definition.
Deliberate disobedience is not just sin, it is TRANSGRESSION, which is worse.

Trying to obey but missing it, falling short is SIN. PERIOD.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
 
Death.  as you said: The penalty for SIN is death.   (Romans 6:23)
 
Not "same as," but willful disobedience.  Transgression. Worse than sin.
Interesting that you take a person that got it wrong by accusing Job of bringing his disaster on himself by his own sin, and a Pharisee who is trying to condemn our Lord as authoritative in their statements.

If God never hears the prayer of sinners, then no prayers of repentance were ever heard.
By the definitions of chatah (OT) and hamarta (NT) every mistake IS a sin.
   
Absolutely.  But most of them have no clue what repentance even is, let alone how to do it.

Actually that is the nature of transgression, which is worse than sin. The Word of God concerning Transgression is "obsolete? ? ?"
This is why we need a Bible that shuns jargon and uses modern words.  There've been a few attempts, but I haven't found a good one.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #94 on: Fri Dec 03, 2021 - 05:50:27 »
This is why we need a Bible that shuns jargon and uses modern words.  There've been a few attempts, but I haven't found a good one.
OR Pastor/Teachers could be doing what they are supposed to; and teach their congregants to start looking at the original language sources and give the historical and cultural background of the writers and original audience.

Eph 4: 11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #95 on: Fri Dec 03, 2021 - 09:09:35 »
OR Pastor/Teachers could be doing what they are supposed to; and teach their congregants to start looking at the original language sources and give the historical and cultural background of the writers and original audience.
You want them to give us the keys to the car?  But it's so much more comfortable if they just drive us around...

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #96 on: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 19:39:17 »
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1) Post-exodus Israel was clearly the elect.  The Bible says so over and over.

2) Yet some of them (almost all of them, really) failed to uphold the covenant and perished as a result.

How did that happen?  Don't say 'they made a choice.'  That's a given.  Look at what underlies that choice.

You have claimed that God pre-determines the natures and nurtures of men in such a way that they will choose God or against God.  Were these Israelites elected against?  No!  Such a thing is impossible.  They cannot be both the elect and elected against.

Revisiting this thread after some time away. I think I'm getting to the bottom of such a simple but profound ignorance of Scripture's teachings as the answer is spelled out so many ways and so many times such as by Jesus who speaks to Israelites as some of them not being true descendants of Abraham:

John 8:39
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.


And you need to comprehend Romans 9 to get the answer to this question, which directly confronts the very question of how Israel could have fallen way despite being "chosen" and the answer is absolutely not "free will." Scripture contains no discussion of "free will" at all and no one needed any exploration of this theology to understand the concept of people making choices and experiencing consequences.
 
 Israel was a fleshly elect that was symbolic of the spiritual one, and so "Natural branches" were "broken off" for ingrafted ones. This is discussed in Romans 11.

What's the concept of "natural branches"? Yes, Israel was the elect in the fleshly sense, but ultimately, not the spiritual elect.

You can see this all over Jesus' message and also Paul's epistles that the true "sons of Abraham" were those of faith, which perplexed many faithless Israelites. There is a fleshly "chosen people" which was Israel, just as they were fleshly descendants of Abraham, but this is overridden by the spiritual elect, who are spiritual children of Abraham. Israel was chosen as they were fleshly descendants but broken off for lack of faith.

Who can pick his parents? And yet Jesus said to those chosen Israelites that they were not true descendants of Abraham, whereas believing Gentiles were -- the spiritual election, the spiritual Israel, even.

Romans 9:6 "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

And that is a head-on statement: "Israel" is indeed the elect, and yet many fleshly Israelites in fact are not true Israelites and it is as spelled-out as much as it possibly could have been. Fleshly Israelites can't pick their ancestors, and SPIRITUAL Israelites can't pick their actual "author and finisher of their faith" (Hebrews 12:2) either. Israelites is indeed synonymous with those elected for grace, and not all of them are fleshly Israelites.

Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

These Gentiles were "appointed" (meaning chosen) to CHOOSE to believe, as I see that people feel comfortable inserting the word "choose" in front of anyone's behavior which is perfectly fine -- I don't dispute the implication of doing something meaning "choosing" to do something and, as some seem to struggle to comprehend, pretty much no one really does.

As far as others' arguments, here is what I see people coercing their Bibles into saying in Romans 9:20

"Will that which exists on its own say to someone who just happens to exist alongside it: why did you decide to use me for these purposes? Doesn't the potter have the right to use these pieces of pottery that happen to be lying around for whatever his purposes are?"

Basically, people who are opposing determinism take everything about the message of a creator/creation relationship out of the message and so fill the exact role that Paul actually describes. Because what it actually says is,
"Why have you MADE me like this."

Romans 9:20  But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

Not, "why did you manage to 'use' me for these purposes?" No, this hypothetical figure says: "why have you made me like this." The potter has the right to MAKE pieces of pottery for the purposes of his will, not just use them after the fact. "Free will" is clearly the phrase used by those who are disturbed by what Scripture actually says and aren't admitting it. Many are concocting a detailed "free will" theology, utterly foreign to Scripture, and revile God as creator.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 19:43:23 by Cally »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #97 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 07:48:34 »
Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

These Gentiles were "appointed" (meaning chosen) to CHOOSE to believe, as I see that people feel comfortable inserting the word "choose" in front of anyone's behavior which is perfectly fine --
I have two things to say about that.  First, the usual translation/interpretation of verse 48 is simply atrocious, and most likely wrong.  Briefly, the Greek word for "appointed" is τάσσω [tassō ].  As it appears there, it is either in the passive voice or the middle voice since the two forms for tasso are the same.  When taken in the passive voice as in the version you posted, it is completely inconsistent with the rest of the passage, specifically with verses 44-46. The better interpretation is in the middle voice, meaning they appointed themselves to believe.  Just as it says there were Jews who decided against eternal life (v.46), it says there were Gentiles who decided in favor of eternal life (v.48). I can go into that in some detail if you would like. 

Second, your interpretation of what the verse, even as it most often appears, is even worse. That verse as you presented it does not say that the gentiles were appointed to choose to believe.  It says that the gentiles who were appointed to eternal life believed.  Those are not the same.  If you do not know and understand the difference, then it becomes apparent why you have such a difficult time reading and understanding anything about free will.  Even a good ole Calvinist understands the difference.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #98 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 09:01:29 »
Quote
Second, your interpretation of what the verse, even as it most often appears, is even worse. That verse as you presented it does not say that the gentiles were appointed to choose to believe.  It says that the gentiles who were appointed to eternal life believed.  Those are not the same.  If you do not know and understand the difference, then it becomes apparent why you have such a difficult time reading and understanding anything about free will.  Even a good ole Calvinist understands the difference.

Then by all means, revert what it says which is perfectly adequate: "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." They were appointed for salvation, therefore they believed, no "free will" doctrine necessary to explain this phenomenon just like it was never needed in the entirety of choices in all of Scripture.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #99 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 09:10:10 »
You choose a poorly, more likely wrongly, translated/interpreted verse in the Bible to prove your point.  Not a very good move.

What does your view of no free will say about verse 46: Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles ?  Maybe only the Jews have free will?

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #100 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 09:37:23 »
Quote
You choose a poorly, more likely wrongly, translated/interpreted verse in the Bible to prove your point.  Not a very good move.

What does your view of no free will say about verse 46: Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles ?  Maybe only the Jews have free will?

I've chosen MANY verses to make the point and didn't get around to citing anywhere near all of them.

You and others keep citing these examples of people making choices, being commanded to make choices, or rebelling against God in their choice to disobey Him all over Scripture.

My response to that is: EXACTLY!

EVERYONE gets it -- like literally everyone understands choosing or not choosing God (or anything else) and experiencing consequences. Everyone across the thousands of years of Old Testament and New Testament Scripture understands all of this and did not need the slightest mention of this "free will" heresy to "explain" or "understand" any of it.

"Free will" doctrine is only a rebellion against what Scripture actually does say. Yes, the falling away of most of Israel needed explaining and it IS explained, especially in Romans chapters 8-11. And none of it is about "free will" until someone inserts words in their imagination.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #101 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 10:50:02 »
Revisiting this thread after some time away. I think I'm getting to the bottom of such a simple but profound ignorance of Scripture's teachings as the answer is spelled out so many ways and so many times such as by Jesus who speaks to Israelites as some of them not being true descendants of Abraham:

John 8:39
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.
I'm glad you're looking at John 8.  It's the right place to look.

But I'm not sure you've fully comprehended it, because immediately afterwards you say...

Israel was a fleshly elect that was symbolic of the spiritual one...
This is the opposite of what Jesus preaches in John 8.  Jesus says that heredity and election are reckoned according to behavior... Abraham's children act like Abraham.  The devil's children act like the devil.  God's son acts like God.

There's no such thing as a "fleshly elect."  God has reckoned election the same from one end of the Bible to the other.  Let's look at the Old Testament.

It was Abraham's faith that originally secured for him the election.

Ishmael was Abraham's biological son.  But he wasn't elect.  He did not believe as Abraham, and he did not inherit the Promise.  Abraham's seed was reckoned as Isaac, the child who did believe.  Ishmael's flesh did not make him elect.

Esau was Isaac's natural son, and his favorite son.  He could have been the elect son and inherited the Promise; Isaac intended it.  But before he inherited anything at all, he sold his birthright to his brother.  Jacob (Israel) was reckoned as the son of Promise.  Esau's flesh did not make him elect.  Jacob's belief made him elect.

Israel had 12 sons.  Which one received the birthright and the Promise?  That would be... Ephraim, who was not one of Israel's 12 sons at all, but a grandson who was adopted on Jacob's deathbed.  The flesh profits nothing, not even at the very beginning of the OT.

Seventy of Abraham's descendants went down to Egypt.  Four generations later, 2 million Israelites left in the Exodus with Moses.  Seventy people can't become 2 million in four generations.  You do the math; it's impossible.  Yet ALL of those 2 million people are reckoned as Israel, because of adoption:

1Co 10:2  They were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

I could keep going, this continues literally through the entire Bible.  Who is Israel? It is not reckoned by genealogies.  It is reckoned by righteousness, and by adoption.  The righteous are adopted.  The wicked are disinherited.

Rev 2:9  I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

"Natural branches" were "broken off" for ingrafted ones. This is discussed in Romans 11.

What's the concept of "natural branches"? Yes, Israel was the elect in the fleshly sense, but ultimately, not the spiritual elect.
Election is spiritual, and corporate.  There is no such thing as elect flesh, nor are individuals often elected.

Israel was/is elect.  Yet many who started off as part of the elect group perished, because they left the elect group!  The elect shall be saved, but it remains possible to sell the birthright, or reject their Father and be adopted by another.

Do we call that free will?  The Bible doesn't, but it teaches it anyway.  The Ishmaels and Esaus stand for warning.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #102 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 11:52:46 »
There is no such thing as elect flesh, nor are individuals often elected.
God's plan of salvation is one of individuals who are elected. Salvation is to individuals; the saved individuals are the elect.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 11:54:55 by 4WD »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #103 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 16:54:25 »
God's plan of salvation is one of individuals who are elected. Salvation is to individuals; the saved individuals are the elect.
No no no... not at all.  Salvation is for a group - Abraham's descendants, the Israelites.

There are precious few people who are elected individually, and the Bible makes a big deal out of it when it happens (King David, John the Baptist, etc). 

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #104 on: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 18:40:54 »
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Israel was/is elect.  Yet many who started off as part of the elect group perished, because they left the elect group!

Straight-up wrong, says Paul:

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Consider this very carefully: you said, they were all the elect, but then fell away for lack of faith and then were no longer the elect.
You cannot then say that they obtained something and then became the elect -- in that sequence.

The elect obtained something because they were the elect in the first place -- "the elect among them"; they were the elect and THEN obtained it.

If they were ALL the elect in the first place, then ALL of them should have obtained it. The reason for it is that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." Not all Israel obtained it, "but the elect among them did."

According to what you're saying, this verse should be saying that they were ALL the elect, but then when some were hardened they were no longer the elect. But that's not what it says -- it says "the elect among them" implying that not all of them were and then they obtained what they sought, "the rest" implies that the rest of them were not the elect and so were hardened.

There's so much to say about Romans 8-11 as it has all of the answers about Israel's falling away and so much of it addresses these questions about God apparently (when viewed the wrong way) failing to do what He promised with Israel as Abraham's descendants. But there sure isn't a word of it that implies a whole doctrine of "free will" -- anything but.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 18:43:19 by Cally »