Author Topic: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23  (Read 4587 times)

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Offline Cally

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Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« on: Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 14:19:40 »
I've found it so remarkable how people into "free will" will avoid the simplest thought experiment possible.

I don't use the words "everyone knows" lightly, but it actually applies in this case: EVERY functional human being, for survival purposes, understands that people's choices come out of who they are because they distinguish between someone they "know" and "trust" versus a stranger. Everyone understands that you don't trust a stranger in ways that you would someone who you've "gotten to know," as understanding who a person is allows a much more accurate prediction of what kind of choice that they will make per situation, whatever the category; the most relevant type of choice that one needs to predict from a person they "trust" is a moral one, like trusting that they are not the kind of person who would (say) choose to steal your car if you let them borrow it for something, which is to say, you also come to understand the pattern of someone's "moral" choices just like any other category of behavior.

Every functional human being simply must understand this to survive, but as soon as the "free will" discussion begins, it goes out the window. The implication is straightforward, obvious, and "everyone knows" it in reality because it's just a matter of functioning as a person: the choices that a person makes simply comes out of what kind of person they are.

And now the parable of the sower, a perfect example of a heredity-meets-environment model: two things combine to (potentially, depending on the heredity) create something completely different, like a caterpillar into a butterfly, heredity of something allows the person/thing to change completely. Jesus describes four different kinds of soil in which a seed may fall; before it falls, nothing grows, but certain soil is able to respond to the seed in such a way that the seed can grow into fruitfulness while in other kinds it cannot; the seed is the same in each case, but the soil -- or the sort of person who received the word -- is fruitful with it r not based on its condition.

But here is what is key: in this model, the seed is the same every time and the state of the soil is NOT described as fluid; heredity is NOT fluid, and the influence of the environment is the same every time, but depending on the heredity, the scattered word may or may not cause the new thing to come up and be fruitful, but if the heredity is fertile soil, a completely new thing comes to life as the person becomes born again.

Is choice excluded from this model? Not at all, but it's just not the terms of the model; choices are simply caused by the heredity of the person, cause-and-effect, and (depending on the heredity) the person can change in response to what is introduced to it by its environment. The choices that will be made in response to the word being introduced depends on the heredity of the person and so does the ensuing fruitfulness; with the example of the plant being choked by thistles, this remains part of what existed in the first place that would later hinder the productivity and growth of the word.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 17:11:42 by Cally »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #1 on: Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 18:09:22 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #2 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 14:05:15 »
Jarrod:

    A BIG Amen to your photo caption above. I had the same feeling of confusion as I read Cally's post. I think he might need to re-read our Lord's words in John 7:17.

    "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God..." The NIV reads, "If anyone chooses to do God's will..." Without free will, no one can choose. A robotic mind, the Calvinist kind, cannot freely choose.

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 19:02:55 by Reformer »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 06:00:11 »
Remember some years ago the discussions about the question of nature vs nurture in the human development was quite prevalent.  Cally's view of that seems to be all nature and no nurture.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 06:00:11 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 10:25:51 »
Quote
Remember some years ago the discussions about the question of nature vs nurture in the human development was quite prevalent.  Cally's view of that seems to be all nature and no nurture.

The seed (the word of God) is the "nurture" element. The discussion of nature vs. nurture is completely the same, that "nurture" has a different effect on different "nature" states.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 10:25:51 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #5 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 10:33:07 »
Quote
Without free will, no one can choose.

Yes, they can.

"Free Will" is simply a theology to hand-wave away the causation of choices.

The whole world goes round on people's abilities to understand others' behavior (moral or otherwise) by "getting to know them," psychology, marketing, business, warfare, etc. It's a day-to-day concept that literally every functional human being understands or else they would simply trust or distrust everyone equally regardless of how well they knew them; you'd trust a complete stranger with your car keys as much (or as little) as your best friend who has a track-record that should make him be more 'trustworthy," since "free will" means choices have no cause rooted in what kind of person a particular individual is -- and yes that includes the results of heredity combined with environment, but one's heredity also determines the outcome of the mix just like in the parable of the seed and the soil.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 10:40:43 by Cally »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #6 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 12:02:56 »
The seed (the word of God) is the "nurture" element.
Unfortunately, that is totally missing for most of the world; therefore your view is that most of the world is completely lacking in nurture and completely dominated by nature.  A really ludicrous idea to the point of being laughable.

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #7 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 12:36:07 »
Quote
Unfortunately, that is totally missing for most of the world; therefore your view is that most of the world is completely lacking in nurture and completely dominated by nature.  A really ludicrous idea to the point of being laughable.

Following from the parable of the sower, which should have been obvious without it being said that that was the realm of the discussion that leads to someone being born again. What's laughable is to willfully confuse the issue.

The rest of the world also has many ways in which a thing is nurtured by its environment. People will feel changed and molded by their experiences, although the end result has different effects based on different situations of heredity and different situations in the environment -- one person might not be changed in the same way by the same event as another, which is exactly what the parable of the sower is talking about, where the seed is of the same kind every time and the correct heredity is capable of resulting in the growth of the particular thing. All things out of the environment can have interactions to different people in different ways.

So no, that statement does not say that everyone who isn't exposed to the word of God is just 'dominated by nature." The particular fruitfulness that the word of God is capable of producing requires THAT particular seed in the parable of the sower. To run with the analogy there can be seeds for other things that we'd judge as being "bad" but doesn't take root, for example some bad childhood experience might give one child a phobia -- a metaphorical "seed" of that phobia that grew into fruitfulness due to the person affected -- but a different child with the same experience, being different "soil," might not grow that phobia.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 12:55:34 by Cally »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #8 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 19:07:59 »
Cally:

    "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God..." The NIV reads, "If anyone chooses to do God's will..." Without free will, no one can choose. A robotic mind, the Calvinist kind, cannot freely choose.

Go to a Greek Lexicon on John 7:17. It might clarify and help. 

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #8 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 19:07:59 »

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #9 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 19:34:43 »
Buff:

No one is saying people don't make choices -- nobody. I mean you can keep posting about people making choices as if it's going to absolutely blow someone's mind that there's such a thing as choices -- while you completely talk over every single word I've said, of course -- but it's only toward some straw man who is declaring that people don't make choices, never heard of the commonplace occurrence of people choosing things, making decisions, or however else you feel like putting it.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #10 on: Sun Nov 07, 2021 - 20:10:33 »
Unfortunately, that is totally missing for most of the world; therefore your view is that most of the world is completely lacking in nurture and completely dominated by nature.  A really ludicrous idea to the point of being laughable.
A logical argument that holds up.  Noice.

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #11 on: Mon Nov 08, 2021 - 06:24:34 »
Quote
A logical argument that holds up.  Noice.


This is called the "circle the wagons" fallacy. In step with that, it causes all actual reason to disappear at the local mob's convenience.

It's a particularly remarkable one to see among professing Christians, too. I mean, countless stories of the Bible involving literally one or two righteous people up against everyone else (Joshua and Caleb, Josiah, Jeremiah, etc.) , and yet a solitary statement to do nothing more than circle the wagons. But then, ultimately, it's still expected.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #12 on: Mon Nov 08, 2021 - 08:49:27 »
Additionally, to emphasize just how foolish 4WD's argument really is, the reality is that it accuses Jesus with the parable of the sower itself since most of the metaphorical soil never encounters the "seed." IOW he's accusing Jesus of the modeling the whole world of being "all nature" and no nurture, blaming him more than anyone who simply retells his parable.

In terms of that discussion, the seed that is the Word of God describes that PARTICULAR interaction with the environment, so this false dilemma is that it's "all nature" if that particular seed isn't introduced. Outside the terms of the parable of the sower, there are various sorts of metaphorical seeds that can encounter soil, potentially growing or not growing depending on the soil. The parable of the sower is a description of a particular environment/nurture interaction, not implying that there are no other possible interactions with the soil (the person who receives or doesn't receive input). The parable of the sower is very much a nature/nurture model.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #13 on: Mon Nov 08, 2021 - 09:23:05 »
Additionally, to emphasize just how foolish 4WD's argument really is, the reality is that it accuses Jesus with the parable of the sower itself since most of the metaphorical soil never encounters the "seed." IOW he's accusing Jesus of the modeling the whole world of being "all nature" and no nurture, blaming him more than anyone who simply retells his parable.
I am just noting that you have so little understanding of the entire arena under discussion here. For some undisclosed reason you object to the term "free will". The term and the concept are well accepted and understood even by those who do not subscribe to the theological aspects of free will.  And in trying to defend your position of aversion to the term "free will" you have gone over to the concept of "determinism" which is not widely theologically accepted;  believers, agnostics, and atheists alike. Mostly it gets wrapped around a faulty view of predestination, which appears to me is what you have done.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #14 on: Mon Nov 08, 2021 - 13:19:51 »
Buff:

No one is saying people don't make choices -- nobody. I mean you can keep posting about people making choices as if it's going to absolutely blow someone's mind that there's such a thing as choices -- while you completely talk over every single word I've said, of course -- but it's only toward some straw man who is declaring that people don't make choices, never heard of the commonplace occurrence of people choosing things, making decisions, or however else you feel like putting it.

Cally,

What is it exactly that you believe you are choosing and why?

You are debating this choice/freewill thing so earnestly that I wonder why.

Offline Cally

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #15 on: Mon Nov 08, 2021 - 16:21:07 »
Quote
Cally,

What is it exactly that you believe you are choosing and why?

Choosing about what?

Quote
You are debating this choice/freewill thing so earnestly that I wonder why.

Studying the way people who oppose determinism think, mostly. Many people are passionately against it and follow a completely invented theology that they think is implied just because Scripture contains depictions of the undisputed occurrence of people making choices.

As I'm seeing on this thread, they only avoid it. If "free will" existed, as opposed to choices simply resulting from the causation within the person making them (complete with any nature/nurture model), no one could pursue anything related to analyzing people's different behaviors (psychology, business, politics, marketing, warfare, etc.), no one would make any distinction between someone they "know and trust" as opposed to a complete stranger. All of that common sense goes clear out the window for people who believe in "free will" which simply hand-waves away the causation of choices that people actually do understand.

It's fascinating, actually -- how many points they have to completely ignore, and then stuff a strawman who somehow has no idea that people make choices. And then there's the reaction to determinism like it's utter heresy except . . . against what? There's no "free will" writing in the Bible and yet it's as sacred to them as anything.

I used to not care so much, except seeing the sheer passion behind it, seeing how it obstructs application of otherwise day-to-day common sense, and considering that what really at stake is that they hate the real, actual sovereign God Who created the universe completely according to His design and for His purposes and self-expression, including the role that both the righteous and the wicked (whom He created) serve in it.

A post like this tells me that I've probably reached closer to the root on account of the fact that they can't reply to any of these points at all; pressing the issue, seeing how people who believe in "free will" simply can't even get into a discussion about the day-to-day "get to know/trust someone." It's remarkable, and it highlights the impasse, demonstrating the sheer averseness to applying any rational thought to their beliefs.

Also, Rella, other people are debating for the other side on their own posts quite a bit. Have you asked them?
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 08, 2021 - 16:23:48 by Cally »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #16 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 04:52:30 »
Studying the way people who oppose determinism think, mostly. Many people are passionately against it and follow a completely invented theology that they think is implied just because Scripture contains depictions of the undisputed occurrence of people making choices.

As I'm seeing on this thread, they only avoid it. If "free will" existed, as opposed to choices simply resulting from the causation within the person making them (complete with any nature/nurture model), no one could pursue anything related to analyzing people's different behaviors (psychology, business, politics, marketing, warfare, etc.), no one would make any distinction between someone they "know and trust" as opposed to a complete stranger. All of that common sense goes clear out the window for people who believe in "free will" which simply hand-waves away the causation of choices that people actually do understand.

It's fascinating, actually -- how many points they have to completely ignore, and then stuff a strawman who somehow has no idea that people make choices. And then there's the reaction to determinism like it's utter heresy except . . . against what? There's no "free will" writing in the Bible and yet it's as sacred to them as anything.

I used to not care so much, except seeing the sheer passion behind it, seeing how it obstructs application of otherwise day-to-day common sense, and considering that what really at stake is that they hate the real, actual sovereign God Who created the universe completely according to His design and for His purposes and self-expression, including the role that both the righteous and the wicked (whom He created) serve in it.

A post like this tells me that I've probably reached closer to the root on account of the fact that they can't reply to any of these points at all; pressing the issue, seeing how people who believe in "free will" simply can't even get into a discussion about the day-to-day "get to know/trust someone." It's remarkable, and it highlights the impasse, demonstrating the sheer averseness to applying any rational thought to their beliefs.
The emphasis in red highlight are mine for discussion.

Good reply in answering Rella's post to you, Cally. I made a post late yesterday afternoon (well, late for me) which was short, but somehow it never made it to thread~probaly something I did wrong in my haste.

In that post, I did mention freewill is the golden calf that Arminianism worship~for without it, they have no room to debate man is not as wicked as the scriptures declare him to be by nature through Adam's generation.

I'll keep this post short since I have to leave early to be in for minor surgery for the removal of skin cancer.

Concerning the parable of the sower, I have a few thoughts.
Quote
Luke 8:18~“Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.”
Brother, this parable has reference to four kinds of hearers that ARE CHILDREN OF GOD, the children of this world have HEARTS OF STONE filled with enmity against God~so, this parable is not about THEM, but children of God.

The entire parable and its full context may be found in Matthew 13:1-23; Mark 4:1-25; and Luke 8:4-18.

The parable is simple, and Jesus explained it fully; little to no time needs to be spent thinking about planting. You know the parable; but the importance is how we respond to preaching, not if you grasp the parable!

Here we see four hearers among the children of God: We make a choice each time we hear the Word of God as to which one we will be.

The lesson is not primarily theological in describing different degrees of preparation God makes in each hearer, but it is rather practical in describing different degrees of attentiveness and obedience by each hearer.

While it is an axiom of truth that God must prepare hearts for men to understand, that is not the lesson here. It does not matter which ground is regenerate or unregenerate; such worries only distract from the true lesson; the unregenerate can only be the first three kinds of ground, (IF they were even under consideration, which we are convinced they are not)  but the regenerate can be all four kinds of ground.

If the truth be told, which it will be one day soon, we have been all four kinds of ground at various times. Our Lord explained and applied the parable to His disciples ~those born again and able to hear and obey.

The purpose of hearing and obeying the preached word is fruitfulness, not obtaining eternal life by a decision. The issue here is not eternal life by missing the invitation, but it is rather fruit bearing by those already saved.

The judgment is severe for not hearing rightly ~ the little knowledge you think you have will be taken away. The blessing is great for hearing rightly~you will be given more knowledge than you hear, by His blessing.

To avoid missing this parable, the key issue is applying and obeying truth, not just hearing more sincerely. You can only do part of being good ground here; the real test is what you do with the truth every other day.

We should fear that many are not bearing the fruit they should (INCLUDING OURSELVES), and some are not bearing any fruit at all, in spite of the blessed Lord giving us extensive knowledge and instruction in the word of God and many motivating lessons.

If you knew what part of the man of God is wasted on chasing, exhorting, worrying, and praying for slipping, sliding, fruitless, discouraged, barely-Christians, you would be angry and sick at the same time. Thus the parable!

The salvation at stake, and mentioned by Luke, is practical salvation from heresy, fruitlessness, and sin. The danger is clear~fruitlessness deserves God’s judgment (Luke 13:6-9; John 15:1-8; 2nd Peter 1:9; etc).

We love the truth of God, and we want more, but we will lose what we have without a godly response and constantly being diligent in PROTECTING the word of God in our hearts already received by us.

It is a great privilege to hear and understand preaching, and we better respond accordingly, or we shall lose what we have received. Sad, but many Christians allow too many distractions to come into their life by serving the flesh while laboring to serve God~again, THUS the parable.

In closing~if this is the truth of the parable among born again children of God how much worse is this true among those men who have never been born of God, who have never been given a heart to even receive the word as truth from heaven? If we who have the new man within us struggle with the things of this life in order to be fruitful and to please God, then we should know that those who have only the old man, could never obey what they hate by nature. Selah.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 04:55:26 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #17 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 05:23:53 »
If "free will" existed, as opposed to choices simply resulting from the causation within the person making them (complete with any nature/nurture model), no one could pursue anything related to analyzing people's different behaviors (psychology, business, politics, marketing, warfare, etc.), no one would make any distinction between someone they "know and trust" as opposed to a complete stranger. All of that common sense goes clear out the window for people who believe in "free will" which simply hand-waves away the causation of choices that people actually do understand.
What do you think "free will" is other than making "choices simply resulting from the causation within the person making them (complete with any nature/nurture model)"?

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #18 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 05:31:49 »
I agree. There is no will other than that.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 07:31:54 by Jaime »

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #19 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 05:46:39 »
Here we see four hearers among the children of God.....
If by children of God you mean the regenerated, then you have missed the lesson of the parable entirely.  The four hearers represent the world of people.

Mat 13:19  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom.....

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #20 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 07:22:21 »
This is called the "circle the wagons" fallacy. In step with that, it causes all actual reason to disappear at the local mob's convenience.

It's a particularly remarkable one to see among professing Christians, too. I mean, countless stories of the Bible involving literally one or two righteous people up against everyone else (Joshua and Caleb, Josiah, Jeremiah, etc.) , and yet a solitary statement to do nothing more than circle the wagons. But then, ultimately, it's still expected.
This is called "agreeing with someone else."  It's a pretty basic part of holding a conversation.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #21 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 07:36:56 »
The heredity is spiritual death.  The environment we are raised in is not spiritually alive either.  That is the nature and nurture of our existence.  The Holy Spirit drawing us is an intervention.  Good seeks us.  Those that hear the gospel of Jesus Christ then have the choice.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #22 on: Tue Nov 09, 2021 - 13:46:18 »
If by children of God you mean the regenerated, then you have missed the lesson of the parable entirely.  Mat 13:19  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom.....
Who else would I have reference to? Pretty sure I can defend my position if you would like to test me on this parable~you would have many points to prove to even get your understanding agreeing with the scriptures overall.
Quote from:  4WD on: Today at 05:46:39
Matthew 13:19~The four hearers represent the world of people.
Prove it.
Quote
Matthew 13:19~When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
When any one heareth does not prove one thing as of yet~you need to get the full context of this parable from the scriptures given above. All Matthew 13:19 said it when the word is preached/taught and the word is sown in the heart of the hearer, and "IF" they do not understand it, then immediately the wicked one catcheth away the word that was sowed so that it bears no fruit.

4WD~fruit-bearing and why some do and others do not is the lesson being taught, not the opportunity of making a decision of inheriting eternal life, base on man's free will. It is impossible to be free when one is a servant of sin and the wicked one. Such a person IS FREE from righteousness being in bondage to sin, and the wicked one.

You would labor in vain to try to insert freewill into any part of this parable for the wicked~for the righteous, it is there for they only have BOTH WILLS at work within them..... The old Adamic nature (the old man) received from Adam and the new man created in them by the Spirit of God at regeneration, after the image of Jesus Christ. To the degree we yield our members unto righteousness is to the degree we will bear fruits, some thirty, some fifty, some more. This truth is taught all through the NT.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 6:6-20~"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #23 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 05:46:21 »
You are proposing that the four hearers described in the parable of the sower are born again children of God.  And yet it seems that out of the four, only the last one bears fruit.  The rest you claim are born again and yet lost.  Interesting.  I would argue that it is only that last group of four, those who hear and understand, that are indeed born again. 

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #24 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 06:43:38 »
You are proposing that the four hearers described in the parable of the sower are born again children of God.  And yet it seems that out of the four, only the last one bears fruit.  The rest you claim are born again and yet lost.  Interesting.  I would argue that it is only that last group of four, those who hear and understand, that are indeed born again.
RB is right, the parable is about saved people and how they handle the word of God.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #25 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 07:08:02 »
 NO it is a parable about all the various conditions of the hearts of all of mankind and how they receive the word or not.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #26 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 07:37:24 »
NO it is a parable about all the various conditions of the hearts of all of mankind and how they receive the word or not.
I'm gonna cast some seed right now and  give a real time example of the parable. Most likely Satan is going to come immediately and take it away. Here's the seed:

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are saved by believing in Jesus. We are born again BY the word of God. The whole parable is about spreading the word of God just like I have done here.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #27 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 07:47:28 »
I've found it so remarkable how people into "free will" will avoid the simplest thought experiment possible.

I don't use the words "everyone knows" lightly, but it actually applies in this case: EVERY functional human being, for survival purposes, understands that people's choices come out of who they are because they distinguish between someone they "know" and "trust" versus a stranger. Everyone understands that you don't trust a stranger in ways that you would someone who you've "gotten to know," as understanding who a person is allows a much more accurate prediction of what kind of choice that they will make per situation, whatever the category; the most relevant type of choice that one needs to predict from a person they "trust" is a moral one, like trusting that they are not the kind of person who would (say) choose to steal your car if you let them borrow it for something, which is to say, you also come to understand the pattern of someone's "moral" choices just like any other category of behavior.

Every functional human being simply must understand this to survive, but as soon as the "free will" discussion begins, it goes out the window. The implication is straightforward, obvious, and "everyone knows" it in reality because it's just a matter of functioning as a person: the choices that a person makes simply comes out of what kind of person they are.

And now the parable of the sower, a perfect example of a heredity-meets-environment model: two things combine to (potentially, depending on the heredity) create something completely different, like a caterpillar into a butterfly, heredity of something allows the person/thing to change completely. Jesus describes four different kinds of soil in which a seed may fall; before it falls, nothing grows, but certain soil is able to respond to the seed in such a way that the seed can grow into fruitfulness while in other kinds it cannot; the seed is the same in each case, but the soil -- or the sort of person who received the word -- is fruitful with it r not based on its condition.

But here is what is key: in this model, the seed is the same every time and the state of the soil is NOT described as fluid; heredity is NOT fluid, and the influence of the environment is the same every time, but depending on the heredity, the scattered word may or may not cause the new thing to come up and be fruitful, but if the heredity is fertile soil, a completely new thing comes to life as the person becomes born again.

Is choice excluded from this model? Not at all, but it's just not the terms of the model; choices are simply caused by the heredity of the person, cause-and-effect, and (depending on the heredity) the person can change in response to what is introduced to it by its environment. The choices that will be made in response to the word being introduced depends on the heredity of the person and so does the ensuing fruitfulness; with the example of the plant being choked by thistles, this remains part of what existed in the first place that would later hinder the productivity and growth of the word.

This is a perfect apologetic for FATALISTIC philosophy.   
(fatalism (def) - the doctrine that all events are determined by fate and are therefore unalterable.)

Whatever will be will be, right? 

Not according to the Bible.

According to the Word of God, the Almighty has inserted Himself into the affairs of man and has chosen in and of Himself to alter destiny - to remove FATALISM as an excuse for the SINs of man.  God has chosen to give man the ability to choose his own fate - life or death.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you
that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses.
Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
- Deuteronomy 30:19

FATALISM is the aberrant doctrine of some that allegedly excuses their wickedness and SIN.   It is the bane of modern society in that we declare to one another that we are not guilty of wrongdoing because "we are born that way" or because "socio-economic factors prohibit moral behavior." or because "everybody else does it." 

SIN is defined by Mosaic LAW (read Exodus & Leviticus).   In this LAW we are instructed as to what God considers SIN against heaven and each other.  The abbreviated version is called The 10 Commandments. 

SIN is a choice and all humans tend to choose it, but we don't have an excuse before God and we don't have to live that way always.  God has provided an escape from SIN in the sacrifice He has provided and in His divine work in our lives (should we decide to accept it).

According to the LAW we are NOT SINNERS unless we break the LAW.   

Am I guilty of robbing a bank even though I've never done so?  I am NOT.   Is a newborn child guilty of lying, adultery, dishonoring its parents, theft or taking the Lord's Name in vain?  Certainly not, therefore IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

The potential for SIN does not make one guilty - according to The LAW.  (Jesus had this potential, yet He SINned not.)
Doing SIN does - by The LAW
God has entered our world and provides a way out of the path to destruction - a path away from SIN by The LAW. (Hebrews 7:25)

REPENT AND TAKE IT.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

ps  If the reader has a problem with The LAW, I suggest you take it up with God and explain to Him which of His 10 Commandments is bad.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 08:02:31 by Choir Loft »

Online RB

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #28 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 08:14:53 »
I'm gonna cast some seed right now and give a real-time example of the parable. Most likely Satan is going to come immediately and take it away. Here's the seed:

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are saved by believing in Jesus. We are born again BY the word of God. The whole parable is about spreading the word of God just like I have done here.


As Lee Corso would say~"Not so fast my friend".

Your example is a faulty interpretation, even if spoken in love for the truth. Your sense of the verse in 1st Peter 1:23 is against the overall truth of God's word. You made an error that many make by going with the sound bites instead of making sure your understanding of the scripture being quoted will and can be supported by God's testimony of the doctrine under consideration.

Men who are at enmity against God and a lover of darkness, who are also dead in trespasses and sin cannot hear, see, nor understand, the spiritual truths of God until they are given a new heart to do so! IMPOSSIBLE!
Quote
1st Peter 1:23-25~"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
My dear friend and brother, please consider: The only sense one can give 1st Peter 1:23 is this and still have a perfect flow of truth throughout God's word....."The word of God gives witness to...give testimony of...how sinners are born of the Spirit of God".
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:1~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
Again:
Quote
1st John 5:7-11~"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
We are born again ACCORDING TO the testimony of God...according to the witness of God which he has testified IN HIS WORD. This is the only sense one can give to 1st Peter 1:23 and at the same time have a perfect flow of truth with all scriptures which speak of being born again or being saved from sin and condemnation.

The word of God is NOT the means of one being born of God~it is only the source of information of how and why we believe as we do. GOd could have chosen many different ways of revealing himself to us, but he chose the foolishness of preaching to save them THAT BELIEVE~saved in a practical sense of coming to the knowledge of the truth!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 13:18-23~Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
I want to come back and consider this parable a little more.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #29 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 08:22:50 »
SIN is defined by Mosaic LAW (read Exodus & Leviticus).   In this LAW we are instructed as to what God considers SIN against heaven and each other.  The abbreviated version is called The 10 Commandments. 

SIN is a choice and all humans tend to choose it, but we don't have an excuse before God and we don't have to live that way always.  God has provided an escape from SIN in the sacrifice He has provided and in His divine work in our lives (should we decide to accept it).
Actually, that would not be "sin," but transgression.  They are different.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #30 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 08:53:45 »
Quote
FATALISM is the aberrant doctrine of some that allegedly excuses their wickedness and SIN.

Just to clear this up, insert "God" as the cause rather than "fate." Secondly, this is absolutely not to excuse anyone's sin.

This is merely an issue of illiteracy as this is addressed by Paul, whoever would make such a protest (as we are seeing people protest now with the "free will" theology that they are forcing into Scripture):

Romans 9:19-22
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[a] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?


God's will was to form an assortment of pottery, some of which prepared for destruction because they sin by design, while (conversely) others were chosen for repentance:

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight


From a human perspective, you have a choice to do absolutely anything. You can sit and contemplate all day long all the different choices you can make to do something, but the thing you will end up doing -- including how you respond to your environment and how you are influenced by it -- is simply the choice that's in character with yourself that originates from God. I repeat, as some apparently have a hard time understanding, the heredity (how one is made) also determines the ways that the surrounding environment influences and changes the person as different people respond different ways to the same outside influence.

Rob

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #31 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 09:08:27 »
As Lee Corso would say~"Not so fast my friend".

Your example is a faulty interpretation, even if spoken in love for the truth. Your sense of the verse in 1st Peter 1:23 is against the overall truth of God's word. You made an error that many make by going with the sound bites instead of making sure your understanding of the scripture being quoted will and can be supported by God's testimony of the doctrine under consideration.

Men who are at enmity against God and a lover of darkness, who are also dead in trespasses and sin cannot hear, see, nor understand, the spiritual truths of God until they are given a new heart to do so! IMPOSSIBLE!
You're saying, that FIRST a person has to be saved, given a new heart  AND THEN they can understand the bible. What do you think I'm trying to say? Salvation comes FIRST and then the NEW MAN is formed in us by the words we read in the bible.

The NEW MAN IS the SECOND BIRTH. What do you think Paul is trying to birth in these SAVED Galatians? These are SAVED Galatians and Christ is not yet formed in them.

Gal 4:19  My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
My dear friend and brother, please consider: The only sense one can give 1st Peter 1:23 is this and still have a perfect flow of truth throughout God's word....."The word of God gives witness to...give testimony of...how sinners are born of the Spirit of God". Again: We are born again ACCORDING TO the testimony of God...according to the witness of God which he has testified IN HIS WORD. This is the only sense one can give to 1st Peter 1:23 and at the same time have a perfect flow of truth with all scriptures which speak of being born again or being saved from sin and condemnation.

The word of God is NOT the means of one being born of God~it is only the source of information of how and why we believe as we do. GOd could have chosen many different ways of revealing himself to us, but he chose the foolishness of preaching to save them THAT BELIEVE~saved in a practical sense of coming to the knowledge of the truth!I want to come back and consider this parable a little more.
I'm not going to spend a lot of time with this because you're asking me to ignore what the bible says and believe "The only sense one can give 1st Peter 1:23 and at the same time have a perfect flow of truth with all scriptures which speak of being born again or being saved from sin and condemnation". That's ABSOLUTELY not true. You just admitted that you don't care what the words actually say because  in your version of salvation and the 2nd birth it doesn't make sense . Think about that RB, you're ignoring the words of the bible and comforming those words to your current level of understanding rather than adjusting your current understanding to conform to the words of the bible.

The only sense one can give 1st Peter 1:23 is that were are born again by the word of God and that has absolute perfect flow of truth with the bible and if it didn't you would post verses that prove your point but you didn't.


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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #32 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 10:51:12 »
From a human perspective, you have a choice to do absolutely anything. You can sit and contemplate all day long all the different choices you can make to do something, but the thing you will end up doing -- including how you respond to your environment and how you are influenced by it -- is simply the choice that's in character with yourself that originates from God. I repeat, as some apparently have a hard time understanding, the heredity (how one is made) also determines the ways that the surrounding environment influences and changes the person as different people respond different ways to the same outside influence.
So you think your choice to sin originates with God.  Interesting concept you have there Cally; blaming God for all you do wrong.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #33 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 12:38:56 »
Actually, that would not be "sin," but transgression.  They are different.
Different, but the same, too.

Whether one does wrong willfully or unintentionally, wrong is still wrong.

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Re: Determinism and the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23
« Reply #34 on: Wed Nov 10, 2021 - 12:43:35 »
Quote
So you think your choice to sin originates with God.  Interesting concept you have there Cally; blaming God for all you do wrong.

I do not "blame" God for anything. He can create each piece of pottery for it to serve its purpose however He pleases, they behave according to plan, like the ones He "bore with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction."