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Offline Michael2012

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Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:35:40 »
This had been one of the most debated topic in the Christian faith. Perhaps, one of the reasons why this is very crucial and very important to some, is because it involves the babes, the infants, the young ones, whom many Christians, and even perhaps all the non-Christians or the unbelievers, naturally believe, are innocent and without sin.

This question is not only important for that reason, but is so, because what the Christian believes about this, greatly affects his reading and understanding of God's words in scriptures. So, it is the prayer and intention of this thread on this topic, that this question be settled once and for all, for the benefit of all those who seek the truth.

I invite everyone to give their answer to the topic question "Did all mankind sinned in Adam? " and quote reference supporting scriptures and let each of us study and examine the cited scriptures. 
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 30, 2018 - 05:49:58 by Michael2012 »

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Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:35:40 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:50:06 »
Ah. Good to know this question is finally going to be settled once and for all.

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:50:06 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:52:06 »
NO

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:52:06 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:59:42 »
Ah. Good to know this question is finally going to be settled once and for all.

 ::smile:: I thought the same thing. 

Not possible, I'm afraid, but we each can be convinced in our own minds, and hopefully show grace when others are convinced differently.

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 11:59:42 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 12:02:50 »
My conviction, based on scripture  and what I've observed of myself, others and even my own wonderfully cute practically perfect offspring, is that yes we are born sinners.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--


Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!


Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Romans 5:18 Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 12:02:50 »



Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 12:19:42 »
My conviction, based on scripture  and what I've observed of myself, others and even my own wonderfully cute practically perfect offspring, is that yes we are born sinners.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--


Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!


Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Romans 5:18 Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are you willing to apply the second half of each of those verses the same way you want to apply the first half?

If, in verse 15, the many were born dead by the tresspass of the one man, meaning they died apart from any choice to sin but were just born automatically dead, then will that same many receive God's grace and the gift by that grace apart from any choice?

In verse 18, if all are born condemned by the one tresspass, meaning all did nothing to receive condemnation but were just born that way, will all automatically receive justification and life by the one act of righteousness?

Verse 12 tells us how to read the following verses. The reason all died is because all sinned, meaning they actively sinned their own sins. The passage and its context does not teach born in sin or born dead in sin. It teaches that Adam brought sin and death into the world. It teaches that death comes to all who sin, and inasmuch as all sinned, all died.

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 12:19:42 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 12:27:50 »
Are you willing to apply the second half of each of those verses the same way you want to apply the first half?

If, in verse 15, the many were born dead by the tresspass of the one man, meaning they died apart from any choice to sin but were just born automatically dead, then will that same many receive God's grace and the gift by that grace apart from any choice?

In verse 18, if all are born condemned by the one tresspass, meaning all did nothing to receive condemnation but were just born that way, will all automatically receive justification and life by the one act of righteousness?

Verse 12 tells us how to read the following verses. The reason all died is because all sinned, meaning they actively sinned their own sins. The passage and its context does not teach born in sin or born dead in sin. It teaches that Adam brought sin and death into the world. It teaches that death comes to all who sin, and inasmuch as all sinned, all died.

soterion, I'm not interested in justifying my conviction nor am I trying to convince others that I am right.  I simply shared what I admitted was my conviction and I did what the OP asked by showing the scripture I find, for the reason I believe as I do.

I realize that there are some that do not share my conviction. I realize they are still my sisters and brothers in Christ.  We agree that all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, we simply disagree about *when* that happens. ::smile::

Blessings to you!

Offline RB

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 13:10:29 »
Are you willing to apply the second half of each of those verses the same way you want to apply the first half?
ABSOUTETLY! and no I'm not shouting at you, but overly JOY concerning the doctrine of imputation of our sins to Christ who knew NO SIN! and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS to us who were at enmity against God.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For He hath made Him to be sin for us; who knew no sin: That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
The doctrine of the imputation of our sins, and the doctrine of the imputation of Christ righteousness to his people~ is clearly stated, explained and proven by the holy scriptures.

Romans 5:12-19 teaches BOTH sides of this doctrine so clearly, and to reject Adam's sin being imputeth to his posterity tells me that that person is also in the dark on the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ concerning how we are made the righteousness of God through Christ.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For He hath made Him to be sin for us; who knew no sin: That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
In Consequence of our apostasy in Adam from God, the depravation of our nature, that we received thereupon, and of that personal guilt, and condemnation which we have contracted: We cannot, according to the tenor of God's Law, be admitted to fellowship with our Creator either here, or hereafter, without satisfaction for our violation of it, as through the corruption of our nature we desire it not. Of which doctrine the Paul expounds, in Romans four, five and 2nd Corinthians 5, even in Philemon so beautifully! etc. Read the little book of Philemon and ask yourself why do not preachers preach from this POWERFUL book? My answer is.....Their gospel will not allow them to do so.

God was in Christ reconciling the world (Jews and Gentiles) unto himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation, or, the Gospel of Peace, which Christ gave commission to his apostles and ministers to preach. In the words of 2nd Corinthians 5:21, we are informed, how this reconciliation was effected and brought about. I suppose, that every intelligent reader will easily observe, that they consist of three distinct points ~ Christ knew no Sin ~ He hath made Him to be Sin for us~ That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him, of which Romans 5:12-19, also covers in details.

Paul did say these words:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:12-14~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ask your self, in what biblical sense was Adam a FIGURE OF CHRIST? Answer that question and you have your answer to this question:
Quote
Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
The answer is yes.

"is the figure of him that was to come"~This appears to have been suggested from the immediately preceding clause, and to imply that the persons referred to were sinners, or transgressors of law, just as the saved are righteous ~the former sinners in Adam, although they had not actually sinned as he did, just as the others are righteous in Christ, although not actually righteous like Him. Those who are saved fulfill the law just as the others break the law, namely, in their great head or representative. If one does not accept this, then by default they embrace another gospel! You cannot embrace one without embracing the other, and you cannot deny one without denying the other.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For He hath made Him to be sin for us; who knew no sin: That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
How are we made the righteousness of God? by being IN HIM and him our representative before God's law!



« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 13:36:44 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 13:25:52 »
Ah. Good to know this question is finally going to be settled once and for all.
Settled no... reaffirmed YES! Children born after the flesh are born every second into this world~children born after the Spirit who are children of God's promises not as many.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 13:28:20 by RB »

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 13:25:52 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 13:51:13 »
soterion, I'm not interested in justifying my conviction nor am I trying to convince others that I am right.  I simply shared what I admitted was my conviction and I did what the OP asked by showing the scripture I find, for the reason I believe as I do.

I realize that there are some that do not share my conviction. I realize they are still my sisters and brothers in Christ.  We agree that all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, we simply disagree about *when* that happens. ::smile::

Blessings to you!

Okay. Blessings to you, too. ::smile::

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 14:19:24 »
ABSOUTETLY! and no I'm not shouting at you, but overly JOY concerning the doctrine of imputation of our sins to Christ who knew NO SIN! and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS to us who were at enmity against God. The doctrine of the imputation of our sins, and the doctrine of the imputation of Christ righteousness to his people~ is clearly stated, explained and proven by the holy scriptures.

Romans 5:12-19 teaches BOTH sides of this doctrine so clearly, and to reject Adam's sin being imputeth to his posterity tells me that that person is also in the dark on the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ concerning how we are made the righteousness of God through Christ.


Okay, going by Romans 5:12-19, to the extent that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind, and thus all are born in sin, condemned, guilty, etc., should be to the extent that all will receive Christ's juticification and righteousness by imputation. All are going to be saved to the extent that all were condemned. Verse 18 says so; the "all" in the second half of the verse has to be the same "all" in the first half.

If not, then that context is not teaching what you purport.


Quote

Paul did say these words: Ask your self, in what biblical sense was Adam a FIGURE OF CHRIST?


Adam and Christ were "firsts" of their kind and both introduced something into the world that had far reaching affects on mankind.

Quote

"is the figure of him that was to come"~This appears to have been suggested from the immediately preceding clause, and to imply that the persons referred to were sinners, or transgressors of law, just as the saved are righteous ~the former sinners in Adam, although they had not actually sinned as he did, just as the others are righteous in Christ, although not actually righteous like Him. Those who are saved fulfill the law just as the others break the law, namely, in their great head or representative.


Maybe you can reword that because I can't get anything out of it that relates to Romans 5:12-14. My take:

Verse 12, before the parenthesis, is what defines how to interpret what all follows.

Death spread to all men because all sinned. This sinning is active sinning, meaning that all have committed their own sins. This encompasses verses 13 and 14. The similitude of verse 14 is the breaking of a direct commandment from God given to another in a covenant. This Adam did. From Adam until Moses we do not have any such commandments given from God to men, not until God made covenant with the Israelites on Mt. Sinai.

Nevertheless, Paul says death reigned from Adam until Moses, meaning there was law, just not like what was given to Adam and then to the Israelites. Inasmuch as Paul said death spread to all men because all committed sin, then all those from Adam until Moses were breaking law; they all committed their own sins.

Nothing in this context of scripture teaches that people are born sinners, in sin, slaves to sin, guilty of sin, etc. Each person is guilty of his and her own sin.






Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 14:36:05 »
My highlights in MeMyself's post.
My conviction, based on scripture  and what I've observed of myself, others and even my own wonderfully cute practically perfect offspring, is that yes we are born sinners.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--


Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!


Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Romans 5:18 Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.
Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Clearly these words of Paul tell us that the effect of Jesus' obedience was to negate the effect of Adam's disobedience.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 14:38:19 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 14:43:03 »
To think that God imputed Adam's sin to even one other person is a slap in God's face.  Those of you who believe in original sin or total depravity might actually want to do that.  But God certainly did not want to nor did He.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 15:31:46 »
Michael2012,
Do you mean " "Did all mankind sin in Adam?" Or "inherit sin in Adam?"
In either case no.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It says sin entered the world through Adam, does not say sin entered into every man through Adam. It says death was passed on to all men, for all have sinned.

That's like saying, this one person is infected with a deadly virus. And all the people on the block are going to die because they all slept with this one person. All those people on the Block I'm not going to die because that first person died, they're going to die because they themselves send and sleeping with that one person.

 death was passed on to all men for all have sinned, is what it says.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 16:14:54 »
To think that God imputed Adam's sin to even one other person is a slap in God's face.  Those of you who believe in original sin or total depravity might actually want to do that.  But God certainly did not want to nor did He.

Im confused...might actually want to do what?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 18:44:51 »
Im confused...might actually want to do what?
Punish the son for what the father did to you.  Happens all the time.  The Hatfields and McCoys is a classic example.  But God has not done that.  He is not that petty.

It is important to understand sin.  Sin is imputed by God.  When you disobey the law [or Law], necessarily really happens physically to you.  What happens is the sin of disobedience is imputed to you by God.  That is, sin is ascribed to you and you are held responsible for it in terms of a spiritual separation from God and being obligated to pay the debt that is owed to God for your disobedience.

Therefore if you think that a person is sinful at birth, then that means that God has imputed some sin unto you.  Specifically in the doctrine of original sin, God has imputed Adam's sin upon the whole of humanity.  You should ask the question why would God do such a thing and as I posited, why would God even want to do such a thing.  He has never indicated that He would impute the sins of one upon another.  In fact He specifically noted otherwise in Ezekiel, Chapter 18.  He begins that chapter with a chastisement of Israel which had a tendency to think that the son might be held accountable for the sins of the father.  God said He does no such thing.

Paul reiterates that in Romans, chapter 5, as I indicated.  Specifically verses 18 & 19 spell that out quite clearly.  It doesn't matter what you might think resulted to all men as a result of Adam's disobedience, Paul says the result of Jesus'  obedience is much more powerful in grace applied.  Paul says that Jesus' obedience negated anything and everything that might have affected mankind due to Adam's disobedience.

Now then, since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is applied retroactively to all preceding time, that means that the spirit that God forms in each of us is free from any stain due to Adam.  It is not original sin; rather it is original grace (Rom 5:17).
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 18:57:16 by 4WD »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 19:08:48 »
Punish the son for what the father did to you.  Happens all the time.  The Hatfields and McCoys is a classic example.  But God has not done that.  He is not that petty.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't understand why this seems to make people so *offended* that others may see this differently?  Its not a salvation issue, exactly when and by what means sinners are made sinners.

What matters more is that we agree that all *have* fallen short and that Christ is the way to the Father. ::shrug::

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 20:28:14 »
It matters because the belief in the false doctrine of original sin and/or total depravity generates even more false teachings.

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 20:38:53 »
It matters also because then people have both Adam and God to blame for their sinfulness, instead of themselves. I was born this way takes the blame off of self.

Apart from who to blame, original sin and Total Depravity present a false picture of human nature and of God's nature and treatment of man.

Like 4WD said, more false teaching is generated from that one foundational false teaching. Btw, whether it is a "salvation issue" depends to what degree or extent a person takes that one foundational teaching.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 20:43:31 »
It matters because the belief in the false doctrine of original sin and/or total depravity generates even more false teachings.

I'd agree *if* this were about a salvational issue, but its just not. ::shrug::

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 20:45:04 »
It matters also because then people have both Adam and God to blame for their sinfulness, instead of themselves. I was born this way takes the blame off of self.

I don't blame God, nor do I blame Adam. *I* am responsible for my sin before God, but Christ is my Advocate on High and its by His righteousness I stand.

Quote
Apart from who to blame, original sin and Total Depravity present a false picture of human nature and of God's nature and treatment of man.

Like 4WD said, more false teaching is generated from that one foundational false teaching. Btw, whether it is a "salvation issue" depends to what degree or extent a person takes that one foundational teaching.

Okay. Thanks for your thoughts.

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 21:43:12 »
Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't understand why this seems to make people so *offended* that others may see this differently?  Its not a salvation issue, exactly when and by what means sinners are made sinners.

What matters more is that we agree that all *have* fallen short and that Christ is the way to the Father. ::shrug::

I'm not one who generally gets all bent out of shape over it, but I believe the reason some find it offensive is that it paints God as unjust -- punishing people for crimes they themselves did not commit.  One wonders if such a deity is really deserving of worship.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jun 28, 2018 - 23:41:30 »
It matters also because then people have both Adam and God to blame for their sinfulness, instead of themselves. I was born this way takes the blame off of self.

What does it matter? The fact is plain and simple that we are being punished for something Adam did.
Adam sinned and was send out of paradise and because of him you are now not living in paradise.
So the fact is clear that you and I are suffering the consequences of something Adam did.

Now I am not taking anybody's side in this reply, but it is also clear that God cursed mankind with "something" because of Adams sin.
Either from that moment all mankind suffers from spiritual death, or all mankind suffers physical death...its still the same...we suffer because of what Adam did.

So if we are talking about what is fair and not fair...why would you consider this fair?
Quite obviously the children are suffering because of the sins of the father. We are being "punished" for a crime we did not commit.

Offline RB

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 03:48:50 »
It matters because the belief in the false doctrine of original sin and/or total depravity generates even more false teachings.
I'm not going to waste time and dishonor God by answering such statements but will this one time, and then move on into the word of God and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

It can be said even more so concerning those who deny total depravity and exalt man's free will in the matter of man's salvation from sin and condemnation. Above all, it dishonors Jesus Christ's work of redemption, and exalts works over grace, etc. It comes down to who's preaching the gospel of reconciliation/peace as Paul preached it, or, who are those that have another gospel that Paul pronounced a curse upon under the direction of God himself.
Quote from: soterion Yesterday at 20:38:53
It matters also because then people have both Adam and God to blame for their sinfulness, instead of themselves. I was born this way takes the blame off of self.
A logical fallacy that's not true. Those men and women whose eyes are open to the truth clearly sees the infinite wisdom of God, and his power, in making Adam the representative of his posterity, in his glorious creation state, with a perfect environment surrounding him to allow him to keep "one"simple little commandment of obeying his Creator. There could NOT have been a better plan by our God than the one He chose to use, impossible. Beside history tell us that it was the best, knowing all man and their natural desire to serve sin and love doing so~UNTIL God regenerates them~and even THEN, sin has a powerful drawing influences/temptations on our old man if we are honest with ourselves and to others, EVEN if we know the end results!
Quote from: soterion Yesterday at 20:38:53
It matters also because then people have both Adam and God to blame for their sinfulness, instead of themselves. I was born this way takes the blame off of self.
I ask you based on your unwise statement.... who do we give CREDIT TO for the righteousness of God that ALL SAINTS possess? WHO gets ALL the glory? Christ alone! Again, as I said above, it works BOTH ways!
Quote from: The Apostle Paul
1st Corinthians 1:18-31~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
"it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"~THIS SALVATION is strictly practical in nature, has not one thing to do with being born again, that's apart for the gospel! When one teaches the word of the gospel in truth and we see it and embrace it at THAT POINT God's elect experience a practical salvation of coming to the knowledge of the truth through the truth of the gospel of reconciliation/peace an experience that will last for the rest of his life, of growing in knowledge of the blessed gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified, resurrected and exalted to God's right hand of power as the LORD of lords, and KING of kings, the only Potentate that every knee shall bow to and every mouth will confess, that he's the Almighty God and they were wicked sinners all the days of their life in the flesh from the womb to the grave!
Quote from: MeMyself Yesterday at 20:43:31
I'd agree *if* this were about a salvational issue, but its just not. ::shrug::
Dear soul, it most certainly is. Galatians 2:16-5:4 is given over to address this very subject with some very strong words from Paul.  Read from 2:16-5:4 and THEN read chapter one again and judge for yourself asking God to be your only guide.
Quote from: NorrinRadd Yesterday at 21:43:12
but I believe the reason some find it offensive is that it paints God as unjust -- punishing people for crimes they themselves did not commit.  One wonders if such a deity is really deserving of worship.
If one listens to modern day preachers and let them do the painting then it would if one is not taught by God~yet, when one searches the scriptures apart from outside spirits and let God speak and we then listen to him, then he will guide us into the blessed truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Quote
Ist Samuel 3:4-9~"That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I. And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down. And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again. Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him. And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the LORD had called the child. Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
As we get older we have learned to ask God to speak and guide our understanding and we refuse to lean upon our own and the understanding of others~when God reveals his truth to us, we will know it~it ALWAYS exalts Christ and puts a man down into the dust where he belongs and from whence he came!
Quote from: NorrinRadd Yesterday at 21:43:12
but I believe the reason some find it offensive is that it paints God as unjust -- punishing people for crimes they themselves did not commit.  One wonders if such a deity is really deserving of worship.
The plan of the two covenants by God PROVES to me that it only originated WITH GOD, for its wisdom is far above man's ability to designed such a plan, and even more so to carry it out~ONLY Infinite wisdom and power that designed salvation for sinful man is a most worthy object of my feeble worship.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 05:28:01 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 05:25:14 »
What does it matter? The fact is plain and simple that we are being punished for something Adam did.
Adam sinned and was send out of paradise and because of him you are now not living in paradise.
So the fact is clear that you and I are suffering the consequences of something Adam did.
AVZ, The sins of men often have terrible consequences to others here on earth, not only to themselves but to others, sometimes hundreds, thousands or even millions of others. If you get drunk in a bar, attempt to drive home and run into someone on your way home, injuring or perhaps even killing them, then they have suffered for your sin.  That is not what we are talking about here.  That is not what original sin is all about.  God isn't going to send the person you injured or killed to hell because you sinned.  No one has gone to hell as punishment for what Hitler did to them.  But original sin declares that you deserve to go to hell because Adam sinned.
Quote from: AVZ
Either from that moment all mankind suffers from spiritual death, or all mankind suffers physical death...its still the same...we suffer because of what Adam did.
It may well be argued that we suffer from not having access to the Garden.  I think that is a stretch, but I won't bother with that here.
Quote from: AVZ
So if we are talking about what is fair and not fair...why would you consider this fair?
Quite obviously the children are suffering because of the sins of the father. We are being "punished" for a crime we did not commit.
As I stated above, physically suffering the consequences in this world because of another's actions is not the subject of the debate concerning original sin or total depravity. The debate concerns God's punishment spiritually of one for the actions of another; of God's spiritually separating someone from Himself because of the sins of another.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 06:18:22 »
AVZ, The sins of men often have terrible consequences to others here on earth, not only to themselves but to others, sometimes hundreds, thousands or even millions of others. If you get drunk in a bar, attempt to drive home and run into someone on your way home, injuring or perhaps even killing them, then they have suffered for your sin.  That is not what we are talking about here.  That is not what original sin is all about.  God isn't going to send the person you injured or killed to hell because you sinned.  No one has gone to hell as punishment for what Hitler did to them.  But original sin declares that you deserve to go to hell because Adam sinned. It may well be argued that we suffer from not having access to the Garden.  I think that is a stretch, but I won't bother with that here. As I stated above, physically suffering the consequences in this world because of another's actions is not the subject of the debate concerning original sin or total depravity. The debate concerns God's punishment spiritually of one for the actions of another; of God's spiritually separating someone from Himself because of the sins of another.

4WD,

Thats not what I am addressing here. I am trying to find out what is fair and what is not fair.

Adam did not throw himself out of Paradise. God did that, and together with Adam He also denied access to all Adam's offspring.
God placed a curse on both Adam and Eve, but that curse rests also on all their offspring.

It has been argued here that God does not punish children for the trespasses committed by their fathers.
But it seems to me that God indeed does just that. He does not keep the children responsible for the sins, but He definitely can make them share in the consequences.
If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, their offspring would likely have been sinless as well.
However, when Adam and Eve sinned and became sinners, who is to say God did not make the children share that consequence as well, and would this be unfair?

Here is my argument, and I am not saying it is so, but I like to propose the following as an option:

What if a person who is born sinless would be able to remain sinless in this present world we live in?
That person would be sinless, live forever, but never be able to be with God.
And what if the best thing that could happen to a person is to be with God forever?
Would it then not be better for that person to be born a sinner, so God can save him and be glorified for it, and he can be forever with God?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 06:43:49 »
I'm not going to waste time and dishonor God by answering such statements but will this one time, and then move on into the word of God and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

It can be said even more so concerning those who deny total depravity and exalt man's free will in the matter of man's salvation from sin and condemnation. Above all, it dishonors Jesus Christ's work of redemption, and exalts works over grace, etc. It comes down to who's preaching the gospel of reconciliation/peace as Paul preached it, or, who are those that have another gospel that Paul pronounced a curse upon under the direction of God himself.
The dishonoring of Christ's work comes with the teaching that Adam's disobedience spiritually effects the whole of mankind but that Christ's obedience spiritually effects relatively few by comparison.  That the work of Christ is so much less efficacious than the work of Adam is the epitome of dishonor of God and Christ.
Quote from: RB
It matters also because then people have both Adam and God to blame for their sinfulness, instead of themselves. I was born this way takes the blame off of self.
A logical fallacy that's not true.
Not a fallacy at all and certainly true.
Quote from: RB
There could NOT have been a better plan by our God than the one He chose to use, impossible.
That of course is absolutely true. However God's plan has little similarity and correlation with the plan that you and Reformed Theology present.  Reformed Theology says that God's plan is that most of mankind will go to hell for the simple reason that Adam ate some fruit that God told him not to.
Quote from: RB
Beside history tell us that it was the best, knowing all man and their natural desire to serve sin and love doing so~UNTIL God regenerates them~
This is simply a slap in God's face by Reformed Theology.  First, according to that adulterated theology, He blames all mankind for Adam's sin and condemns them to hell for it. Then He doesn't even give the vast majority any chance whatever to benefit from Christ's work.  The plan described by you and Reformed Theology has God selecting the few "elect" even before the world began, even before Adam sinned.  To those "elect" God has granted eternal life.  One wonders why God even bothered with creation in the first place.  Why not simply create the "elect" spirits, giving them the gracious gift of eternal life? This creation served no purpose.  The whole of creation has produced nothing but fodder for the fires of hell.
Quote from: RB
"it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe"~THIS SALVATION is strictly practical in nature, has not one thing to do with being born again, that's apart for the gospel! When one teaches the word of the gospel in truth and we see it and embrace it at THAT POINT God's elect experience a practical salvation of coming to the knowledge of the truth through the truth of the gospel of reconciliation/peace......
Again with the onorous teaching of a practical salvation apart from the promise of eternal life to those who believe the gospel message.  And all of that nonsense is the direct result of the false doctrine of total depravity.  Having dreamed up the idea of total depravity, then Augustine, and others, have had to find some way around that ludicrous concept.
Quote from: RB
an experience that will last for the rest of his life, of growing in knowledge of the blessed gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified, resurrected and exalted to God's right hand of power as the LORD of lords, and KING of kings, the only Potentate that every knee shall bow to and every mouth will confess, that he's the Almighty God and they were wicked sinners all the days of their life in the flesh from the womb to the grave!
But of course none of that really has any correlation or interrelationship with receiving eternal life with Christ in heaven. None of that is of any real consequence.  That, according to Reformed Theology, had all been established firmly in place even before Adam sinned and so, obviously, before any of that growing in knowledge of anything.
Quote from: RB
As we get older we have learned to ask God to speak and guide our understanding and we refuse to lean upon our own and the understanding of others~when God reveals his truth to us, we will know it~it ALWAYS exalts Christ and puts man down into the dust where he belongs and from whence he came!
But as I have pointed out. none of that has any effect.  Growing older and learning anything is totally ineffective to accomplish anything.  The only thing that matters is that God, before the world began and before Adam sinned, either picked you or not to spend eternity with Him in heaven.  And none of this is about putting man down into the dust where he belongs and from whence he came; that is just the physical body, the flesh and blood.  This entire discussion concerns the spirit of man, not the flesh and blood of man.
Quote from: RB
The plan of the two covenants by God PROVES to me that it only originated WITH GOD, for its wisdom is far above man's ability to designed such a plan, and even more so to carry it out~ONLY Infinite wisdom and power that designed salvation for sinful man is a most worthy object of my feeble worship.
Interesting.  I have often wondered that if Reformed Theology were true, and it is not, what was the purpose of the first covenant.  Given that eternal life is accomplished by and only by God's monergistic regeneration, then obviously nothing up to the point of Jesus' death on the cross is of any consequence whatsoever.  And in fact nothing after that except God's monergistic regeneration is of any consequence either. 

And finally one more time I will simply say that everything that you profess concerning this subject demands at the outset that God gives to all mankind, save Adam, Eve and Jesus, a spirit dead at their very beginning.  A spirit dead and destined to hell by God's design with only a few of those spirits personally preselected by God for better things.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 06:59:46 »
God placed a curse on both Adam and Eve, but that curse rests also on all their offspring.
You call it a curse, God does not.
Quote from: AVZ
It has been argued here that God does not punish children for the trespasses committed by their fathers.
But it seems to me that God indeed does just that. He does not keep the children responsible for the sins, but He definitely can make them share in the consequences.
  But none of that is of any spiritual consequence. None of that has any effect upon whether one receives eternal life in heaven.
Quote from: AVZ
If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, their offspring would likely have been sinless as well.
That is an assumption that has no basis whatsoever; in fact quite the opposite.
Quote from: AVZ
However, when Adam and Eve sinned and became sinners, who is to say God did not make the children share that consequence as well, and would this be unfair?
Who is to say?  God says it.  Read Ezekiel chapter eighteen.  Read Romans five.
Quote from: AVZ
Here is my argument, and I am not saying it is so, but I like to propose the following as an option:

What if a person who is born sinless would be able to remain sinless in this present world we live in?
That person would be sinless, live forever, but never be able to be with God.
But you have inserted another false teaching, that physical death is the result of sin.  It is not.  The physical creation is finite.  It is finite in all aspects, including the life span of man.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 07:26:04 »
You call it a curse, God does not.  But none of that is of any spiritual consequence. None of that has any effect upon whether one receives eternal life in heaven.That is an assumption that has no basis whatsoever; in fact quite the opposite.Who is to say?  God says it.  Read Ezekiel chapter eighteen.  Read Romans five.But you have inserted another false teaching, that physical death is the result of sin.  It is not.  The physical creation is finite.  It is finite in all aspects, including the life span of man.

OK. just for you I will rephrase:

- God placed a "curse" on both Adam and Eve, but that "curse" rests also on all their offspring.
- If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, their offspring would likely have been born sinless as well.


You say "The physical creation is finite."
That's an assumption on your part. You only come to this conclusion because of the interpretation you wish to give to Genesis, which is based on what would be "fair" and "unfair" in your opinion.
Once you can determine if it is indeed necessarily unfair by God to have humanity share in the "curse", you can rather quickly determine if the rest of your arguments hold ground.


Let me ask you a question:
Do you believe that all men sin, none excluded and it is impossible for a man not to sin?
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 07:29:15 by AVZ »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 07:37:25 »
OK. just for you I will rephrase:

- God placed a "curse" on both Adam and Eve, but that "curse" rests also on all their offspring.
- If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, their offspring would likely have been born sinless as well.
Please provide the Scriptural reference to that curse.
Quote from: AVZ
You say "The physical creation is finite."
That's an assumption on your part. You only come to this conclusion because of the interpretation you wish to give to Genesis, which is based on what would be "fair" and "unfair" in your opinion.
No that is an observation of everything around us with no indication that it was ever intended to be otherwise.  The Bible never once even alludes to  the physical universe being anything but limited as it is.
Quote from: AVZ
Once you can determine if it is indeed necessarily unfair by God to have humanity share in the "curse", you can rather quickly determine if the rest of your arguments hold ground.
AVZ, you keep referring to "the curse".  Please  --  post a reference to that curse.

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 08:35:37 »
What does it matter? The fact is plain and simple that we are being punished for something Adam did.
Adam sinned and was send out of paradise and because of him you are now not living in paradise.
So the fact is clear that you and I are suffering the consequences of something Adam did.


Well, odd as it may sound to you, I believe that being "in Christ" is being in Eden. Christ has undone the works of the devil, and we now have Eden restored in Him.

Quote

Now I am not taking anybody's side in this reply, but it is also clear that God cursed mankind with "something" because of Adams sin.
Either from that moment all mankind suffers from spiritual death, or all mankind suffers physical death...its still the same...we suffer because of what Adam did.


Sorry, but physical death and spiritual death cannot be compared. One is separation from God due to our own sins, the other is not separation from God. It matters which is being spoken of and in what context.

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 08:50:35 »

A logical fallacy that's not true. Those men and women whose eyes are open to the truth clearly sees the infinite wisdom of God, and his power, in making Adam the representative of his posterity, in his glorious creation state, with a perfect environment surrounding him to allow him to keep "one"simple little commandment of obeying his Creator. There could NOT have been a better plan by our God than the one He chose to use, impossible. Beside history tell us that it was the best, knowing all man and their natural desire to serve sin and love doing so~UNTIL God regenerates them~and even THEN, sin has a powerful drawing influences/temptations on our old man if we are honest with ourselves and to others, EVEN if we know the end results! I ask you based on your unwise statement.... who do we give CREDIT TO for the righteousness of God that ALL SAINTS possess? WHO gets ALL the glory? Christ alone! Again, as I said above, it works BOTH ways!


Of course its true. If I was born sinful, condemned, etc., then it is not my fault that I am a sinner and condemned. It is a perfectly logical conclusion.

As to who gets the glory for my salvation, Christ 100%. To suggest otherwise nobody here has done or even implied. Let me pose an illustration from the O.T. The Israelites were saved from slavery to Egypt through God's mighty power. At times, the people of God were told to do some things, such as smear blood on their door frames and cross the dry seabed. If they had not done such, they would not have been saved, yet nobody in their right mind would credit the Israelites with saving themselves or with stealing God's glory and trying to save themselves by works.

If God says a person has to do something, such as believe, in order to be born again, then that person's belief is not an affront to God and His glory and power to save. In fact, to charge that person with works salvation that takes away from Christ's power to save is an affront to God. If God says do it, and He does indeed say do it, then just accept it and stop trying to find ways to fight God.

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 09:00:39 »

You say "The physical creation is finite."
That's an assumption on your part. You only come to this conclusion because of the interpretation you wish to give to Genesis, which is based on what would be "fair" and "unfair" in your opinion.


Genesis 3:22-24.
And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever— therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden the Cherubim, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The passage tells us that if Adam could have had continued access to the Tree of Life, he could have continued to eat and not die. I have to conclude that his immortality was dependent on eating from the Tree. Thus, he was a physically mortal being apart from access to the Tree of Life.

Including Adam, I agree with 4WD that the physical creation is finite.

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 09:46:33 »

What if a person who is born sinless would be able to remain sinless in this present world we live in?
That person would be sinless, live forever, but never be able to be with God.


Why believe that a person born sinless would never be with God? Jesus was born sinless and He had constant companionship with God. Sin is what separates one from God. A sinless person has fellowship with God.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 09:49:43 by soterion »

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sinned in Adam?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jun 29, 2018 - 09:49:15 »
OK. just for you I will rephrase:

- God placed a "curse" on both Adam and Eve, but that "curse" rests also on all their offspring.
- If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, their offspring would likely have been born sinless as well.


Regardless of Adam and Eve's sin status, their offspring were born sinless, as are all people.

 

     
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