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Author Topic: Did all mankind sin in Adam?  (Read 5986 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #210 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:30:23 »
Jesus: No one can come to the Father but through the Son.
vs
4WD: Children can come to the Father without going through the Son.

Scripture: Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
vs
4WD: Children do not need to seek salvation in Christ.

Scripture: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
vs
4WD: Children need no grace, no free gift. They can boast.

Scripture: For all have sinned and have come up short of the glory of God.
vs
4WD: Not all. Some have not sinned and some live up to the glory of God.

Scripture: For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
vs
4WD: All things on earth or in heaven excludes children

Scripture: In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
vs
4WD: Redemption can also be obtained without the blood of Christ.


When you say that children do not need to be saved, and that children do not need to appeal to the blood of Christ for salvation, you are expounding a different message from scripture.

Your reference to Matthew 18 & Matthew 19 never states that children obtain heaven without Jesus. In fact Matthew 19 states "Let the children come to Me". Only in Jesus is salvation!

Scripture: Unless you believe that He is, you will die in your sin. This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
AVZ: Babies can be saved without believing in anything or anybody.

Scripture: Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. With the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
AVZ: Babies do not have to call on the name of the Lord to be saved. Babies do not have to confess with the mouth for salvation.

Scripture: Those who turn from serving to sin and become servants of obedience are set free from sin (Romans 6:16-18).
AVZ: Babies can be set free from sin without serving anything or anybody.

Scripture: Those who put on Christ in baptism become heirs of the promise of justification.
AVZ: Babies do not have to put on Christ but can still receive justification.

Scripture: A person must repent for sin to be blotted out.
AVZ: Babies do not have to repent and sin will still be blotted out.

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #210 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:30:23 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #211 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:41:51 »
AVZ, You lie through your teeth. 

I have pointed out to you that Romans 5:12-19 states specifically that IT IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN HIS OBEDIENCE THAT ALL ARE BORN RIGHTEOUS.

Therefore everything you attributed to me is an out an out lie.

But you stated that babies are born righteous. So what has Jesus' obedience to do with the rigtheousness of babies?

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #211 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:41:51 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #212 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:44:10 »
Scripture: Unless you believe that He is, you will die in your sin. This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
AVZ: Babies can be saved without believing in anything or anybody.

Scripture: Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. With the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
AVZ: Babies do not have to call on the name of the Lord to be saved. Babies do not have to confess with the mouth for salvation.

Scripture: Those who turn from serving to sin and become servants of obedience are set free from sin (Romans 6:16-18).
AVZ: Babies can be set free from sin without serving anything or anybody.

Scripture: Those who put on Christ in baptism become heirs of the promise of justification.
AVZ: Babies do not have to put on Christ but can still receive justification.

Scripture: A person must repent for sin to be blotted out.
AVZ: Babies do not have to repent and sin will still be blotted out.

Ah, but now you are getting your knickers in a twist elsewhere.
How about the mentally handicapped, or the deaf people?
They have all personally sinned but they do not have the capability to hear the gospel and believe.

So if indeed you want to apply the above scripture to all people, then the logical conclusion is that mentally handicapped and deaf people go to hell.

See, I am saying that belief in Christ, to profess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and belief in your heart are measured by God taking in account your ability to do these things.
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:46:53 by AVZ »

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #212 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:44:10 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #213 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:53:04 »
But you stated that babies are born righteous. So what has Jesus' obedience to do with the rigtheousness of babies?
[/size]
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. The many, of course, include babies.

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #213 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 09:53:04 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #214 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 10:01:27 »
Ah, but now you are getting your knickers in a twist elsewhere.
How about the mentally handicapped, or the deaf people?
They have all personally sinned but they do not have the capability to hear the gospel and believe.

So if indeed you want to apply the above scripture to all people, then the logical conclusion is that mentally handicapped and deaf people go to hell.

See, I am saying that belief in Christ, to profess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and belief in your heart are measured by God taking in account your ability to do these things.
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.
Are you really so ignorant that you think deaf people lack understanding?  Gross !!

As for the mentally handicapped, if you understood the biblical meaning of sin, you would understand that there are people so mentally handicapped that they really can not and do not sin:  "....sin is not counted where there is no law" (Rom 5:14). There is no law for those so mentally handicapped as to neither comprehend law nor understand the consequences of disobedience to the law.

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #214 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 10:01:27 »



Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #215 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 10:16:34 »
Ah, but now you are getting your knickers in a twist elsewhere.
How about the mentally handicapped, or the deaf people?
They have all personally sinned but they do not have the capability to hear the gospel and believe.

So if indeed you want to apply the above scripture to all people, then the logical conclusion is that mentally handicapped and deaf people go to hell.

See, I am saying that belief in Christ, to profess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and belief in your heart are measured by God taking in account your ability to do these things.
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.

You are the one who wants to apply all of those concepts in your previous post to all people, including babies, and when I post to show you how that is irrational, you then say that all of the concepts I posted cannot apply to all people. And the concepts we both posted go together to describe who need salvation and how to receive it. In effect, you want to say that the need for salvation is universally applicable to all people, but the remedy supplied by God is not universally applicable.

Who is Jesus, Paul, and others speaking of that have to do those things to be set free from sin and be saved unto eternal life? Those who have sinned is the answer. Whenever we read about how to have sin removed, taken away, forgiven, etc., we find some requirement on the part of the sinner that has to be met, such as believing in Jesus. We should be able to take away from this that only those of such a level of understanding of such things are capable of committing sin and becoming sinners in need of salvation.

A person who is guilty of sin is capable of understanding and seeking to obey what God says must be done to be set free, such as believe in Jesus and call on Him for salvation, repent of sin, and put on Christ. Those who are not capable mentally of doing any of those things is also not a sinner. Sinning takes a certain level of understanding to commit just as hearing the gospel and obeying it unto salvation takes a certain level of understanding.

Those of such mental immaturity or disability are not sinners and do not have to seek out salvation in any form. They are innocent and have God's love as such.

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #215 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 10:16:34 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #216 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 11:10:38 »
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. The many, of course, include babies.

But according to you babies are already righteous.
So how do you suggest Jesus makes righteous babies righteous?

And if "the many" does include babies, can we conclude that in "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners", this also includes babies?
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 11:25:34 by AVZ »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #217 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 11:21:34 »
You are the one who wants to apply all of those concepts in your previous post to all people, including babies, and when I post to show you how that is irrational, you then say that all of the concepts I posted cannot apply to all people. And the concepts we both posted go together to describe who need salvation and how to receive it. In effect, you want to say that the need for salvation is universally applicable to all people, but the remedy supplied by God is not universally applicable.

Who is Jesus, Paul, and others speaking of that have to do those things to be set free from sin and be saved unto eternal life? Those who have sinned is the answer. Whenever we read about how to have sin removed, taken away, forgiven, etc., we find some requirement on the part of the sinner that has to be met, such as believing in Jesus. We should be able to take away from this that only those of such a level of understanding of such things are capable of committing sin and becoming sinners in need of salvation.

A person who is guilty of sin is capable of understanding and seeking to obey what God says must be done to be set free, such as believe in Jesus and call on Him for salvation, repent of sin, and put on Christ. Those who are not capable mentally of doing any of those things is also not a sinner. Sinning takes a certain level of understanding to commit just as hearing the gospel and obeying it unto salvation takes a certain level of understanding.

Those of such mental immaturity or disability are not sinners and do not have to seek out salvation in any form. They are innocent and have God's love as such.

Ok so now we have arrived at a new dimension.
Not only babies are intrinsically righteous, so are mentally handicapped people and deaf people.

How about people who never heard of God or never heard the gospel.
They are equally unable to call upon Christ because they never even knew there is a Christ.
Are they righteous as well?

Anyway, you say this:
"You are the one who wants to apply all of those concepts in your previous post to all people, including babies, and when I post to show you how that is irrational, you then say that all of the concepts I posted cannot apply to all people."

That's not at all true, and that's likely because you did not read my response.
Let me repeat:

See, I am saying that belief in Christ, to profess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and belief in your heart are measured by God taking in account your ability to do these things.
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.


I am applying all the concepts to babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people.
But where people are incapable of exercising the concepts, God is a fair and understanding God and He will apply His grace.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #218 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 11:59:01 »
And if "the many" does include babies, can we conclude that in "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners", this also includes babies?
It is apparent from Romans 5 that the many, obviously including babies, would indeed have been made sinners had Jesus' obedience not negated any effect of Adam's disobedience.

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #218 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 11:59:01 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #219 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 12:13:11 »
Ok so now we have arrived at a new dimension.
Not only babies are intrinsically righteous, so are mentally handicapped people and deaf people.
You are the one who apparently thinks deaf people are incapable of understanding God's word.  That in itself is disgusting.
Quote from: AVZ
How about people who never heard of God or never heard the gospel.
They are equally unable to call upon Christ because they never even knew there is a Christ.
Are they righteous as well?
They were when they were born and before they committed any sin. We are not really told how God plans to deal with those who have not heard.
Quote from: AVZ
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.[/i]
Again with your disgusting idea that deaf people are unable to understand God's word.
Quote from: AVZ
I am applying all the concepts to babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people.
But where people are incapable of exercising the concepts, God is a fair and understanding God and He will apply His grace.
And where did you pick up that little gem? 

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #220 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 12:52:04 »
Ok so now we have arrived at a new dimension.
Not only babies are intrinsically righteous, so are mentally handicapped people and deaf people.

How about people who never heard of God or never heard the gospel.
They are equally unable to call upon Christ because they never even knew there is a Christ.
Are they righteous as well?


First, I never said the mentally incapable are righteous; I said they are innocent.

Second, there is no on topic comparison between the mentally incapable and those who are capable but have never heard. This is apples and oranges.

Quote

Anyway, you say this:
"You are the one who wants to apply all of those concepts in your previous post to all people, including babies, and when I post to show you how that is irrational, you then say that all of the concepts I posted cannot apply to all people."

That's not at all true, and that's likely because you did not read my response.
Let me repeat:

See, I am saying that belief in Christ, to profess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and belief in your heart are measured by God taking in account your ability to do these things.
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.


I am applying all the concepts to babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people.
But where people are incapable of exercising the concepts, God is a fair and understanding God and He will apply His grace.

I did read your previous response and again you are still not applying all the concepts to the mentally incapable. You negated those requirements as being unnecessary in their case. You said where people are incapable of applying all the concepts, God is fair and understanding...

You don't see the bigger problem with that response, do you?

God is fair and understanding in charging the innocent with the guilt of another's sin, and then requiring zero faith response from them to forgive them after falsely charging them. It's kind of like your response to a question from 4WD:

Why would God give all babies a spirit dead in Adam's sin, condemning to hell and then make the ones who die among the elect? Why give them  a dead spirit to begin with? 

Because God is a Saviour and He wants to save them.

Why does God charge them with guilt and condemn them? So He can save them. ::frown::

Have you heard the one about what you get when you cross Cujo with Lassie? A dog who chews off your arm and then runs to gets help.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #221 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 12:54:10 »
You are the one who apparently thinks deaf people are incapable of understanding God's word.  That in itself is disgusting. They were when they were born and before they committed any sin. We are not really told how God plans to deal with those who have not heard.Again with your disgusting idea that deaf people are unable to understand God's word.And where did you pick up that little gem?

Actually my daughter was born deaf, still is deaf and will forever be deaf.
I know exactly what most deaf people are able to understand and what not.
So why don't you humor me and tell me again how disgusting I am?

Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #222 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 20:18:06 »
The innocent in the old testerment were punished for anothers sin and deamed to be unclean. Just for being a women with her monthly cycle was enough for her to be isltated out side the city camp until she was voncidered clean again. Offerings made etc. Then there is the issue of unfairness in regards to child birth. With a baby boy.im on my phone at the mo so cant copy and paste scripture because i find it hard to do so facts not 100 right but you get the point. The baby boy she was isolated like 1 month but wth a bay girl 2 months. Punished for a sin also like her monthly periods. How fair is that. Yes Adams sin was passed on and people was considered unclean

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #223 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 21:09:03 »
The innocent in the old testerment were punished for anothers sin and deamed to be unclean. Just for being a women with her monthly cycle was enough for her to be isltated out side the city camp until she was voncidered clean again. Offerings made etc. Then there is the issue of unfairness in regards to child birth. With a baby boy.im on my phone at the mo so cant copy and paste scripture because i find it hard to do so facts not 100 right but you get the point. The baby boy she was isolated like 1 month but wth a bay girl 2 months. Punished for a sin also like her monthly periods. How fair is that. Yes Adams sin was passed on and people was considered unclean

You seriously out to do more study about these things before you post them and claim they are related to the topic of this thread.

I'll give you two hints. First, a woman's monthly cycle and child birth are not sins and her being isolated for a period of time was not punishment. Second, the uncleanness of a woman because of monthly cycles and child birth has zero to do with the false concept of Adam's sin being passed on to mankind and making all unclean.

Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #224 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 21:16:44 »
Really. Did she have any children in Eden. Did she have a period in Eden and had to have filthy rags

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #225 on: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 22:49:24 »
This had been one of the most debated topic in the Christian faith. Perhaps, one of the reasons why this is very crucial and very important to some, is because it involves the babes, the infants, the young ones, whom many Christians, and even perhaps all the non-Christians or the unbelievers, naturally believe, are innocent and without sin.

This question is not only important for that reason, but is so, because what the Christian believes about this, greatly affects his reading and understanding of God's words in scriptures. So, it is the prayer and intention of this thread on this topic, that this question be settled once and for all, for the benefit of all those who seek the truth.

I invite everyone to give their answer to the topic question "Did all mankind sinned in Adam? " and quote reference supporting scriptures and let each of us study and examine the cited scriptures.

Christians have been misled by their leaders for a very long time.  The answer to this question rests clearly in the Bible, not among those who use scripture like machine gun bullets to force others to accept their argument.

All mankind didn't sin in Adam because we weren't all there at the time.   This phrase begins the misconception and suggests some sort of automatic guilt process. The Bible suggests otherwise.

The fall of mankind is recorded in Genesis chapter three.  Read it.  God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  God's purpose in this was a good one.   It was God's intent to give the pair of humans the opportunity to demonstrate their love for God by means of obedience.   

Consider that it is impossible for anyone to give any gift to God which God hasn't given to us already. It's like using a friend's credit card to by them a birthday present.  It isn't honest and it isn't appropriate.  The only thing Adam and Eve could give to God was obedience to His command.   The addition of temptation to break the command added great power to the gift they could have given.  How great is such a gift to God - given in spite of temptation and in full obedience?  It comes from the deepest part of a man's heart.  This and trust are the only ways humans have to show love to God.   Instead of love Adam and Eve chose to disobey - to sin and to hate God.   This tendency to sin and hate God is born of human self-importance, human appetite and weakness in the face of temptation.  It has become a trademark of our common race.  Thus Adam is the father of disobedience.

Second point is greater.  What is sin? God has said that all souls belong to Him and the soul that sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:20)  So what's a sin?  Again the Bible interprets itself.  Exodus 20 lists the Ten Commandments.   This is called the Law of Moses or the moral law of humanity.   The Law applies to all mankind without qualification.   Breaking the Law is a sin and is punishable by death.   Therefore we see that sin is an ACTION.    It is not a sin to be born human, but those born of the seed of Adam tend to sin.

The doctrine of original sin is therefore not of the Bible and therefore not of God.   If sin is an act of violation of God's Law, then please tell me what baby has sinned.   If the child dies will it be punished for something it hasn't done?  Certainly not.  It is not a sin to be born human.   This is God's word, not mine.  Read the book.  A person is guilty of the ACT of sin.   There is no punishment listed in the Bible for being born human, yet those who wish to inflict us with the toxic dogma of original sin would have us believe we are guilty from birth.  We are not.   

There are a total of 613 laws passed to the Hebrews by God through Moses.   These additional laws provide for atonement (payment) for sin.  Atonement is paid by sacrificing animals of various kinds depending upon deliberate sin, guilt, unintentional sin, disease, healing, etc.  The birth of a child required the sacrifice of doves or pigeons as a thank offering.   Jesus' parents, Mary and Joesph, sacrificed birds upon the occasion of Jesus' birth.   According to God's Law, there is no sacrifice for sin for a baby.  It is not a sin to be born human.   

This is the Law of God.  I didn't make this up and the reader can review it for himself or herself.  If someone tells you otherwise, they are not acting according to God's law and therefore are telling you a lie.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus as quoted by Mathew 5:17

When Jesus died on the cross He fulfilled the requirement of the Law.  That requirement states that the payment for sin is death.  Prior to the crucifixion animals were a temporary sacrifice until a perfect one-time death could pay the penalty, to atone for sin.  It should be pointed out, however, that the Law still stands.   Jesus' death did NOT DESTROY THE LAW.   Jesus' death fulfilled it by serving its requirements for the penalty to be paid.   Those that do not accept Jesus' death are still under the Law and those that do accept His death are still required to obey its commands.   The Bible says believers would be given grace and power SO THAT they may live by the Law, which they can not do themselves.  The Law still stands and those who disobey, though they may be of the second birth, can still be punished though they may not lose their eternal inheritance.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2018 - 22:57:15 by Choir Loft »

Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #226 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 01:12:13 »
Sin is not just the transgression , its iniquity as well. The bent or desire to do wrong. Sin is crouching at your door wanting to desire you.
Genesis 4:7 New King James Version (NKJV)

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is [a]for you, but you should rule over it.”

 Cain killed before the law was written because sin was crouching at his door.Within Him because the knowledge of evil was passed by Adam into the human race. A bent or desire to do wrong that came from his new father satan

John 8:44


King James Bible
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Isaiah 53:5 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 But He was wounded[a] for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes[c] we are healed.

He bleed in his flesh , by the the bruises that he endured ,   for our iniquities that are within us. Within our flesh.Our desire to do wrong. He didnt just die because we transgressed but because of the sin that is within each and every one of us.




Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #227 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 03:03:12 »
Do I believe that the unborn and those in the brackets who have never heard or  can conceive his love are saved ? I just dont know when i relate the Bible to Gods prescence in my life, and i do not have enough knowledge of those in the 1000 year rein. Whats that about? Is it bringing those to life again who died without knowledge so they can choose like we have done?

I myself have had a baby die in my wife’s womb . But i see the word and see life experience a certain way. I see quilty when i look upon the young or handicapped. I see transgression

I look at Job and he never saw the whole picture and he was blessed beyond what he had. I believe beyond what i know that God is Kind , I know he is. I hope i see my child in heaven

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #228 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 03:34:29 »
We are not really told how God plans to deal with those who have not heard.
You are so wrong.... we ARE told, you and others just cannot and will not receive it from Paul's teachings!
Quote from: 4WD Reply #219 on: Yesterday at 12:13:11
Again with your disgusting idea that deaf people are unable to understand God's word...........And where did you pick up that little gem?.
Your false doctrine and loose lips got you into trouble! You picked the wrong person to say that too.
Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #225 on: Yesterday at 22:49:24
The answer to this question rests clearly in the Bible, not among those who use scripture like machine gun bullets to force others to accept their argument.
At least they did not come using a kid's water gun like you have done!

We do not come with using water guns, playing kids games but with a sharp sword of the Spirit of God. Take that statement any way you desire to take it, it really makes to difference to me~my point is this: You made a long post proving not one thing with the scriptures, not "ONE thing", and the reason why is you do not have truth on this subject and I really have not seen very much truth you have ever posted. So, no surprise here for sure.

I will address these many proud, weak, and false points from our opponents when I finish Romans 5:19 and may even address v. 20 and a summary of what we have said before addressing them.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 03:36:35 by RB »

Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #229 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 03:51:46 »
I will not water down the word of God .

Online RB

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #230 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 03:54:35 »
I have pointed out to you that Romans 5:12-19 states specifically that IT IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN HIS OBEDIENCE THAT ALL ARE BORN RIGHTEOUS.
That's "not" what that verse teaches~ALL are not born righteous through Jesus Christ's obedience~all of those that were IN CHRIST are made the righteousness of God THROUGH HIM! Sir, between those two statements of faith there is a world of differences! I have a post coming today the Lord willing that will deal this very point.

You lost you composure answering AVZ.....that tells me you are holding to a lie that you cannot defend much like the Pharisees sought to kill Jesus when he exposed them and their lies. Those who have truth can not be rattled~even if someone tries to do so.

Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #231 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 04:56:14 »
Ok so soterion lets do a study on discharges from the human body and see how they are considered unclean? Maybe Eve didnt bleed in Eden and so was not shut outside the gates as unclean.for a week or so?

Are discharges our fault, Adams or God? Did we see females seperated from God because of this out side the camp , seperated from God almighty. And why 2 fold penalty against female born? Please answer because males are dirty dogs as well. But females bleed acording to age .Are males dirty as well in Gods standard?  Are males more pure in mind than females? Why dose God target this?


I have so many questions and lots more and i value teachers in the body of Christ
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 05:05:52 by bemark »

Online RB

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #232 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 05:03:52 »
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:19~"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
"FOR" indicates a consequence and further explanation from what has been concluded and established in the previous verse and its corollary (Romans 5:12,18).

The careful and precise argument by analogy or comparison (AS …SO) continues here in this verse. This verse is so clear of the conclusion of Paul's argument concerning how and why humans are sinners! They just did not wake up one day and become sinners, as though a Black Mamba one day turns from an innocent garden snake into one of the world's deadliest snake. But, that's what people believe, who reject the doctrine of representation of Adam and Christ~and they want you to believe this as well....BEWARE. 
 
The disobedience of one man~Adam.....made the many related to him all sinners ~which are all mankind. This is exactly what we learned in the first verses of Paul's teaching,.... “for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). The obedience of one man~Jesus Christ~made the many related to him righteous~ the elect of God.

This is the doctrine of imputation~God charging to men either sin or righteousness by another.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:19~"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
This is as strong as any statement in Holy Scripture of salvation by the free grace of God in Christ.

You are condemned by Adam’s sin whether you know, believe, accept, receive, or obey it. It makes no difference whatsoever.  "YOU" do not have to accept Adam as your personal sin representative to be judged for his sin. If you never hear about Adam or deny his existence when you do hear, you will die by his sin.

LIKEWISE....we are justified by Christ’s obedience the very same way~by imputation and representation. Regardless what people believe otherwise....faith or obedience on our part is merely evidence that Jesus Christ obeyed for us; it has no more cause-effect for eternal life than do your sins have a cause-effect for death in Adam.

This is the only doctrine of salvation that can save infants, idiots, and all others consistently~even IF 4WD said God has not spoken concerning certain members of Adam's race. He is so wrong, thereby, deceived...on this doctrine.
 
If anyone adds their obedience in faith or works, they have made salvation by the obedience of TWO! Whereas, Paul said clearly by the obedience of "ONE", not Christ and the sinner.  If anyone adds the witnessing of a soul winner, they make salvation by the obedience of THREE! Again, Paul said by the obedience of ONE.  If anyone adds the organist playing the funeral dirge, they make salvation by the obedience of FOUR! Paul said by the obedience of ONE.  If anyone adds a prayer warrior praying for a decision, they make salvation by the obedience of FIVE! Again, Paul said by the obedience of ONE. If you add the giver paying the preacher to beg, you make salvation by the obedience of SIX! Again, Paul said clearly, by the OBEDIENCE of ONE. If anyone adds a priest sprinkling baby’s head, they make salvation by the obedience of SEVEN! Again, Paul said by the obedience of ONE. Who are we to believe...he who is hollering from the choir loft, or Paul? I'll go with Paul.

True believer, we are God’s elect! And God had chosen us in Jesus Christ before creating Adam! Never forget! Adam’s sin did not surprise God! It was part of His drama to magnify Himself! Do you know this (John 7:38-39; 10:15-16; 17:2; Romans 8:29-39; Ephesians 1:3-12; 2nd Timothy 1:9-10)?
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 14:02:08 by RB »

Offline bemark

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #233 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 05:11:05 »
I agree RB you are a true scholar in the word of God .  Teacher that dosent pull back into the doctrines of man. You have 2 sink into the spirit to believe the word and you sir all around you generates life. The life of Christ. Haters going To hate. Please never stop

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #234 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 06:44:16 »
Actually my daughter was born deaf, still is deaf and will forever be deaf.
I know exactly what most deaf people are able to understand and what not.
So why don't you humor me and tell me again how disgusting I am?
If that be the truth concerning your daughter, you have placed her with new born babies and the mentally handicapped with respect to the ability to understand.  I truly do pity your daughter. If deafness is her only significant handicap, I suspect that she has far more ability to understand than you seem to have.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #235 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 07:30:51 »
Christians have been misled by their leaders for a very long time.  The answer to this question rests clearly in the Bible, not among those who use scripture like machine gun bullets to force others to accept their argument.

All mankind didn't sin in Adam because we weren't all there at the time.   This phrase begins the misconception and suggests some sort of automatic guilt process. The Bible suggests otherwise.

The fall of mankind is recorded in Genesis chapter three.  Read it.  God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  God's purpose in this was a good one.   It was God's intent to give the pair of humans the opportunity to demonstrate their love for God by means of obedience.   

Consider that it is impossible for anyone to give any gift to God which God hasn't given to us already. It's like using a friend's credit card to by them a birthday present.  It isn't honest and it isn't appropriate.  The only thing Adam and Eve could give to God was obedience to His command.   The addition of temptation to break the command added great power to the gift they could have given.  How great is such a gift to God - given in spite of temptation and in full obedience?  It comes from the deepest part of a man's heart.  This and trust are the only ways humans have to show love to God.   Instead of love Adam and Eve chose to disobey - to sin and to hate God.   This tendency to sin and hate God is born of human self-importance, human appetite and weakness in the face of temptation.  It has become a trademark of our common race.  Thus Adam is the father of disobedience.

Second point is greater.  What is sin? God has said that all souls belong to Him and the soul that sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:20)  So what's a sin?  Again the Bible interprets itself.  Exodus 20 lists the Ten Commandments.   This is called the Law of Moses or the moral law of humanity.   The Law applies to all mankind without qualification.   Breaking the Law is a sin and is punishable by death.   Therefore we see that sin is an ACTION.    It is not a sin to be born human, but those born of the seed of Adam tend to sin.

The doctrine of original sin is therefore not of the Bible and therefore not of God.   If sin is an act of violation of God's Law, then please tell me what baby has sinned.   If the child dies will it be punished for something it hasn't done?  Certainly not.  It is not a sin to be born human.   This is God's word, not mine.  Read the book.  A person is guilty of the ACT of sin.   There is no punishment listed in the Bible for being born human, yet those who wish to inflict us with the toxic dogma of original sin would have us believe we are guilty from birth.  We are not.   

There are a total of 613 laws passed to the Hebrews by God through Moses.   These additional laws provide for atonement (payment) for sin.  Atonement is paid by sacrificing animals of various kinds depending upon deliberate sin, guilt, unintentional sin, disease, healing, etc.  The birth of a child required the sacrifice of doves or pigeons as a thank offering.   Jesus' parents, Mary and Joesph, sacrificed birds upon the occasion of Jesus' birth.   According to God's Law, there is no sacrifice for sin for a baby.  It is not a sin to be born human.   

This is the Law of God.  I didn't make this up and the reader can review it for himself or herself.  If someone tells you otherwise, they are not acting according to God's law and therefore are telling you a lie.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus as quoted by Mathew 5:17

When Jesus died on the cross He fulfilled the requirement of the Law.  That requirement states that the payment for sin is death.  Prior to the crucifixion animals were a temporary sacrifice until a perfect one-time death could pay the penalty, to atone for sin.  It should be pointed out, however, that the Law still stands.   Jesus' death did NOT DESTROY THE LAW.   Jesus' death fulfilled it by serving its requirements for the penalty to be paid.   Those that do not accept Jesus' death are still under the Law and those that do accept His death are still required to obey its commands.   The Bible says believers would be given grace and power SO THAT they may live by the Law, which they can not do themselves.  The Law still stands and those who disobey, though they may be of the second birth, can still be punished though they may not lose their eternal inheritance.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...


Choir Loft,

Thank you for responding to the topic question. Now let me respond to your post.

Quote
All mankind didn't sin in Adam because we weren't all there at the time.   This phrase begins the misconception and suggests some sort of automatic guilt process. The Bible suggests otherwise.

All of mankind sinned in Adam.

Consider the following scriptures. In it, one will see why the sinful act of disobedience by Adam is the sinful act of disobedience by all of mankind in Adam. And this includes all, even infants, babes, children, the young.

In reading, keep a keen eye on Abraham and Levi.

Hebrews 7: 9-10

4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

From the passage, it was Abraham who did the actual act of giving/paying of tithes to Melchizedek. Yet it clearly speaks of Levi as having paid tithes to Melchizedek. Now, Levi was not yet born at that point in time. He is still in the loins of Abraham. The righteous act of Abraham is said to be the righteous act of Levi. And that, even while Levi was not there at the time.

Take that to Adam and mankind. It is Adam who did the actual act of disobedience. Now, all mankind is still in the loins of Adam, as was Levi in Abraham. By that then, mankind in that sense disobeyed God through Adam. All then are sinners in Adam. The sinful act of Adam is said to be the sinful act of all of Adam's descendants, that is, mankind. And that even while all mankind were not there yet at the time.

Quote
Second point is greater.  What is sin? God has said that all souls belong to Him and the soul that sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:20)  So what's a sin?  Again the Bible interprets itself.  Exodus 20 lists the Ten Commandments.   This is called the Law of Moses or the moral law of humanity.   The Law applies to all mankind without qualification.   Breaking the Law is a sin and is punishable by death.   Therefore we see that sin is an ACTION.    It is not a sin to be born human, but those born of the seed of Adam tend to sin.

While transgression of the Law is sin, sin is not defined by that alone. Generally, sin is not doing the will God. And scriptures also says, whatever is not from faith is sin.

Taking the case of Adam, God commanded him not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He added to that a warning for Adam to consider, that on the day he eats of it, he shall surely die. While that is a command, it is, strictly speaking, not a law. It is a command that comes out from God who loves and cares for the well being of Adam and not to mention, all of mankind, Adam's posterity. But we know that scriptures refer and calls the eating of the fruit by Adam to be sin. And that is, because the eating of the fruit is one that is not the will of God.

Let me expound a little bit more. Consider Abram for example. God said to him, “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you." Yes Abram obeyed. But consider, if Abram disobeyed, can we say that Abram sinned? The answer is Yes. Not because he transgressed a law or the Law, unless every instruction and command of God is law. It is clear that sin is not solely defined as the transgression of a law or the Law. Adam would have sinned if he had not followed God's instructions, and that because, his doing so is clearly not the will of God, as also is something not of faith.

You referred to Ezek.18:20, and I understand and accept what it says. However, there the point is that people do not die for the sins of their parents, grandparents, children, or grandchildren, but for their own sins. It is of a sense entirely different from that of mankind, who are yet in Adam's loin, so to speak, as participating in the sin of Adam. So, the point that you put forth as a counter argument against the argument that all sinned in Adam does not refute it.

Quote
Therefore we see that sin is an ACTION.

Consider this scriptures:

Mt.5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Quote
It is not a sin to be born human.

Of course it is not that he is born human. That is not the point of the argument that all have sinned in Adam.

Quote
If sin is an act of violation of God's Law, then please tell me what baby has sinned.   If the child dies will it be punished for something it hasn't done?  Certainly not.

That is exactly the argument here, that all have sinned in Adam. All mankind, babies included, have sinned in Adam. We are all participants in the disobedience of Adam. And that sense can be seen in the case of Abraham and Levi, though the act involved there was not that of a sinful act, but that of a righteous act.

If you find the truth that all have sinned in Adam as a lie, do you find the truth that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek  , a lie?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #236 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 07:38:41 »
Quote
Just a thought here to ponder on. I was reading the back and forth and the thought came to me. What is sin? what is the biblical definition of sin? If we answer this then maybe it can make it more clear as to whether we are born with sin or it is something we commit.

My understanding is that sin is a transgression of the law. If that is the case it appears to me that it is something I do not that I was born with.

That leads to another question  which is what is the law in this rendering? May take is it is the commands of God.

In Adams case it was of eating of the fruit he was told not to do. In our case it is to go against the teaching of God as well.

It is my transgression that is credited to me not Adams.

I do not have handy at this time scripture but I thought some where in the scriptures I read that God clearly said that he does not transfer sins of the parents upon the descendants but I may have dreamed that up. I have always understood that each and every man is responsible for their own sin and own relationship with God it is not something transferred from person to person. We only answer for our own walk and ours alone.


So if sin is a transgression of the law then it is something we do after birth not something we were born with correct?

yogi bear,

Thank you for participating in this thread.

In response to your post, I'll refer you to my post in Reply #235, just above this post.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #237 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 07:52:06 »
If that be the truth concerning your daughter, you have placed her with new born babies and the mentally handicapped with respect to the ability to understand.  I truly do pity your daughter. If deafness is her only significant handicap, I suspect that she has far more ability to understand than you seem to have.

You are a lowlife.
Using the handicap of my daughter to make yet another insult. You must be very proud of yourself.
You are the living proof of how depraved humans are.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #238 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:04:09 »
The disobedience of one man~Adam.....made the many related to him all sinners ~which are all mankind. This is exactly what we learned in the first verses of Paul's teaching,.... “for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12). The obedience of one man~Jesus Christ~made the many related to him righteous~ the elect of God.
You just could not let that verse stand as written.  You had to add in words to make it mimic Reformed Theology.  There is nothing in that verse that says "related to him".  The words "related to him" are not there either actually or by implication.  But of course if those words aren't there then in doesn't say what you want it to.  Once again, there is no logical analysis of that verse or that entire passage that would allow you do differentiate between "the many" made sinners and "the many" made righteous.  They must be the same.  And the truly sad fact is that when you do differentiate as you have you have made the disobedience of Adam so much more powerful and efficacious.  And that of course is just the opposite of what Paul said earlier in verse 15.
Quote from: RB
This is the doctrine of imputation~God charging to men either sin or righteousness by another.This is as strong as any statement in Holy Scripture of salvation by the free grace of God in Christ.
That is almost a true statement.  There is nothing in that verse that limits anything to just those in Christ.  Clearly the grace of God is to be found in the negation original sin in favor of original grace. Verse 19 is a repeated statement of verse 18:

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Quote from: RB
You are condemned by Adam’s sin whether you know, believe, accept, receive, or obey it. It makes no difference whatsoever.  "YOU" do not have to accept Adam as your personal sin representative to be judged for his sin. If you never hear about Adam, or deny his existence when you do hear, you will die by his sin.
You just refuse to accept the truth of what God says.

Eze 18:4  "Behold, all souls are Mine.......The soul who sins will die.

Eze 18:20  "The person who sins will die. ......... the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Quote from: RB
LIKEWISE....we are justified by Christ’s obedience the very same way~by imputation and representation. Regardless what people believe otherwise....faith or obedience on our part is merely evidence that Jesus Christ obeyed for us; it has no more cause-effect for eternal life than do your sins have a cause-effect for death in Adam.
Actually there is nothing whatsoever in verse 19 about faith or obedience on our part.  It is speaking only about obedience on Jesus' part.  It is strictly a correlation between the effects of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience and the relative effects upon mankind.  You claim that the effect of Adam's disobedience is that mankind is born in sin.  If that be true and verse 19 says the effect of Adam's disobedience is for all mankind to be born in sin, then verse 19 says the effect of Jesus' obedience is for all mankind to be born in righteousness and the effect of Adam's disobedience is countermanded by Jesus' obedience.  Be assured, if the many effected by Adam's disobedience is the whole of mankind, then the many effected by Jesus's obedience is the whole of mankind.
Quote
This is the only doctrine of salvation that can save infants, idiots, and all others consistently~even IF 4WD said God has not speoken concerning certain memebers of Adam's race. He is so wrong, thereby, deceived...on this doctrine.
That is the nonsense from Pink that you posted.  We could discuss that further if you like, however it really has no place in this discussion.  There is nothing in the passage at all about "the elect", who they are or how they got that way.
Quote from: RB
If anyone adds their obedience in faith or works, they have made salvation by the obedience of TWO!
That of course is also a whole 'nother discussion.  There is nothing that verse or even the entire passage about faith or works of anyone.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #239 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:08:20 »
You are a lowlife.
Using the handicap of my daughter to make yet another insult. You must be very proud of yourself.
You are the living proof of how depraved humans are.
You are the one who insulted your daughter by insinuating that since she is deaf she can't understand.  You are the one who equated the deaf with babies and the mentally incapacitated:
Ok so now we have arrived at a new dimension.
Not only babies are intrinsically righteous, so are mentally handicapped people and deaf people.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:14:18 by 4WD »

Online RB

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #240 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:25:28 »
You are a lowlife. Using the handicap of my daughter to make yet another insult. You must be very proud of yourself. You are the living proof of how depraved humans are.
Agree~his remarks are totally out of place. Shame on him~but some men know no shame. Let us get back on the thread.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:29:30 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #241 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 08:27:46 »
Agree~his remarks are totally out of place. Shame on him~but some men know no shame
RB, AVZ was the one who equated the deaf with mentally incapacitated, not me.

Offline soterion

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #242 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 09:23:49 »
Agree~his remarks are totally out of place. Shame on him~but some men know no shame. Let us get back on the thread.

Seriously! Maybe a little honesty will do some good here.

Here are two quotes from AVZ, before he ever revealed he had a daughter who is deaf:

Ah, but now you are getting your knickers in a twist elsewhere.
How about the mentally handicapped, or the deaf people?
They have all personally sinned but they do not have the capability to hear the gospel and believe.

So if indeed you want to apply the above scripture to all people, then the logical conclusion is that mentally handicapped and deaf people go to hell.

See, I am saying that belief in Christ, to profess Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and belief in your heart are measured by God taking in account your ability to do these things.
And for those who cannot, such as babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people, their lack of understanding will be made up for by God's grace.

Ok so now we have arrived at a new dimension.
Not only babies are intrinsically righteous, so are mentally handicapped people and deaf people.

How about people who never heard of God or never heard the gospel.
They are equally unable to call upon Christ because they never even knew there is a Christ.
Are they righteous as well?

I am applying all the concepts to babies, mentally handicapped and deaf people.
But where people are incapable of exercising the concepts, God is a fair and understanding God and He will apply His grace.

4WD called him out on equating deafness with the same mental incapacity of babies and the intellectually disabled. 4WD is the one who was defending deaf people with having full mental capabilities.

It was after 4WD called him out on it twice that AVZ posted this:

Actually my daughter was born deaf, still is deaf and will forever be deaf.
I know exactly what most deaf people are able to understand and what not.


I know full well that having a physical disability has zero to do with mental capacities. I've been around plenty of deaf people and they are as intelligent and capable of reasoning as any hearing person.

Maybe instead of attacking 4WD for defending the full mental abilities of the deaf, ask AVZ why he equated the deaf with babies and the mentally handicapped to start with.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #243 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:11:11 »
Do I believe that the unborn and those in the brackets who have never heard or  can conceive his love are saved ? I just dont know when i relate the Bible to Gods prescence in my life, and i do not have enough knowledge of those in the 1000 year rein. Whats that about? Is it bringing those to life again who died without knowledge so they can choose like we have done?

I myself have had a baby die in my wife’s womb . But i see the word and see life experience a certain way. I see quilty when i look upon the young or handicapped. I see transgression

I look at Job and he never saw the whole picture and he was blessed beyond what he had. I believe beyond what i know that God is Kind , I know he is. I hope i see my child in heaven

You can 'know' in part because of the Law handed down from God to Moses and thus to us.   The Law defines sin and tells us who is or is not guilty.   

A child, born or unborn, is not guilty of a sin because a sin is willful disobedience or breaking of the Law.   A sin is an act.   A baby, born or unborn, cannot perform an act of deliberate disobedience therefore it is without sin - guiltless.   The child may have the tendency to sin just as it may have the tendency to run and play, but having the tendency does not qualify as sin.   

It is not a sin to be born human.

Those that die in their sins, not coming to peace with God, suffer the Second Death.   This is warned of by Jesus and described in Revelation.   

The Second Death is not hell.   There is no such thing as hell described in the Bible.   The Lake of Fire is the Second Death.   The Lake of Fire burns eternally, but the Second Death is permanent just as physical death is permanent.  God does not inflict unending torture upon sinners.   He destroys them utterly completely and permanently.   A human soul or demonic spirit is destroyed permanently in the Lake of Fire which burns eternally.

The notion of eternal torture is not Biblical, but was adopted by the Roman Catholic church following the publication of the Divine Comedy by Dante Aglierie.  The literature was meant as political satire based upon vague religious themes.  Dante was not a theologian and didn't pretend to be one, but his story was accepted by the church so as to further fear mongering.   It is not true and Dante didn't intend it to be so.   Most current Christian notions about the afterlife are based on Dante's book whether they know it or not.   George Lucas used one of the scenes from the Inferno section in Star Wars 6.  It was science fiction based upon a fantasy to tell a story.   That's it and that's all.

Eternity is unending life, but death is permanent.   There's a big difference.  It's a contradiction in terms to suggest such a thing as eternal death yet Christians and secular persons alike accept this odd coupling without qualification or hesitation.  Death is permanent.  There are no remedial programs in a cemetery or second chances in the grave.   Once a body dies its condition is permanent.  When a spirit is exposed to the Lake of Fire it dies permanently.   It is extinguished and does not return to existence in any form - even for torture.   Every culture on the planet and through history has some notion of this spiritual reality.   Only modern industrialized cultures seem to have a problem with death of any kind particularly that of the human spirit.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 10:14:41 by Choir Loft »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« Reply #244 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 11:18:29 »
Seriously! Maybe a little honesty will do some good here.

Yes, lets.

We all know that there is a difference between deaf and deaf, and there are gradations of mentally handicapped as well.
So when a statement is made that deaf people or mentally handicapped people are unable to understand, we all know what the intent of the statement is: those who because of their handicap are unable to receive the gospel.

But leave it to 4WD to take the opportunity to twist the obvious intent into an ad hominem by declaring the statement "disgusting".
I went back into the discussion and its pretty clear that we all have our differences of opinion, but I do not see anyone calling the other disgusting, or despicable or sleazy.
Why? Because the minimum attempt we make is to at least try and understand the intent with which we word our arguments.

So far I can live with a heated debate and I do understand the intent of 4WD using the terminology "disgusting".
Although I find the vocabulary misplaced, I understand the intent.

4WD's response to my notice that I do have a daughter who is deaf, however perfectly explains his intent.
He takes my daughters handicap to apply hurt. Firstly he "pities" may daughter and secondly he insults my ability to understand.
It is very clear that the message 4WD wants to convey is that he feels sorry for my daughter that I am her father.
The insinuation is that I am a bad father, which is nothing else but another ad hominem.

He further clarifies that later in another response with the statement that I insult my daughter that since she is deaf she can't understand.
Again an ad hominem with no other purpose but to state that I am a bad father.

The plain and simple reality is that my daughter is deaf, and because of her deafness (like many other deaf people) she can't read, can't hear the gospel and can therefore not be given the gospel.
I am not insulting my daughter's inability to understand, I am simply establishing fact.

The intent of 4WD's responses were personal attacks with no other intent but to inflict hurt and distribute insult.
And that's why he is a lowlife and not worth spending another second of my time on.