Author Topic: Did God ever really want a temple? (Read 4753 times)

Cliftyman · « **on:** Mon Aug 01, 2005 - 10:16:58 »

Did God ever really want a temple? I have been reading in Chronicles about David and building the temple.

It seems that God never really asked David to build him a temple... in fact it seems the thought never came up until David did a census and infuriated God... God began punishing the Israelites for this and David in trying to make retribution decided he would honor God with a temple.

This is how it kind of seemed to me at least....

It seems that God blessed his work (though he didn't allow David to build the temple since David was a man of war) after David had decided he would do it, but it seems God never really prescribed this duty to David.

I thought it was interesting how one sin (the census taking) could cause so many things to change....

Now 3000 years later we still try and worship God in buildings and we try to enhance those buildings and make them places where we believe God can dwell, even though Jesus and the Apostles told us that the temple is within us.... even though God promised David through the prophet Nathan that this is how he wanted it....

Quote

1 Chronicles 17
   1 After David was settled in his palace, he said to Nathan the prophet, \"Here I am, living in a palace of cedar, while the ark of the covenant of the LORD is under a tent.\"

   2 Nathan replied to David, \"Whatever you have in mind, do it, for God is with you.\"

   3 That night the word of God came to Nathan, saying:

   4 \"Go and tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD says: You are not the one to build me a house to dwell in. 5 I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought Israel up out of Egypt to this day. I have moved from one tent site to another, from one dwelling place to another. 6 Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their leaders [a] whom I commanded to shepherd my people, \"Why have you not built me a house of cedar?\" '

   7 \"Now then, tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD Almighty says: I took you from the pasture and from following the flock, to be ruler over my people Israel. 8 I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name like the names of the greatest men of the earth. 9 And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning 10 and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also subdue all your enemies.
   \" 'I declare to you that the LORD will build a house for you: 11 When your days are over and you go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He is the one who will build a house for me, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. 14 I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever.' \"

   15 Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation.

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Cliftyman · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon Aug 01, 2005 - 17:03:25 »

marc · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon Aug 01, 2005 - 19:09:24 »

I read something about this recently, but I can't remember where. I'll try to find it.

spurly · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 09:06:01 »

Good question. Requires some thought. He, of course, did set up the tabernacle which was the precursor to the temple.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 09:06:01 »

Bob Valentine · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 10:04:52 »

If you are going to read Chronicles then read the whole thing. The Temple is of central importance in the theology of the Chronicler. The Chronicler devotes great space to the temple in his (or her) narrative.

The temple for the Chronicler was not a matter of whether God wanted it or not. For the Chronicler the temple was a symbol of God's grace with his people. Now the Chronicler knew, just did all Israel, that the walls of the temple could not (and did not) confine God (the prayer of 2 C 6 states this repeatedly). But the Temple was in some sense the dwelling of God with his people. It was the place of his Presence. The Chronicler communicates this clearly in 2 C 5.13-14 and chapter 7.

The temple functions as a point of unity in the book and a symbol of God's continuing care, grace and blessing of a faithless people. There is, I believe, a clear link between the Temple and the Tabernacle. The Tabernacle was clearly the symbol of God's presence among his people . . . \"proof\" that he dwelled with them. The temple serves this same function in Chronicles. God is with (living with) his People. Today that function is fulfilled in the Body where God continues to dwell with his People . . . in his World.

A wonderful study on the Temple in Chronicles is Roddy Braun's \"Solomon, the Chosen Temple Builder: The Significance of 1 Chronicles 22, 28, and 29 for the Theology of Chronicles\" in Journal of Biblical Literature 95 (1976): 581-590. Or check out John Mark Hicks Commentary on Chronicles in the College Press NIV series . . . a very good work on this section of scripture.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 10:04:52 »

Lee Freeman · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 11:27:46 »

I agree with Bobby that there's a clear line of continuity between Tabernacle and Temple as God's dwelling place (John says in John 1 that Jesus \"tabernacled\" or \"pitched his tent\" among us). No one at the time actually believed that a physical building could contain God, but in a very real way, the Tabernacle/Temple was where God manifested his Presence. It was a visible, physical reminder to everyone that God dwelled among his chosen people, Israel.

But your point about people going overboard on church buildings is well-made. One of our deacons told me once when we were considering relocating and building a new facility that another member had told him that God expected us to build him a bigger house than any of us could afford ourselves. Needless to say (I hope) we didn't build such a temple-what we built was a modest, functional, but still nice structure.

So yes, God wanted a temple from Israel but not from us-now we're his Temple.

Pax.

seekr · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 11:28:14 »

Interesting, cliftyman. Along with this is the fact that the people wanted a king and God allowed it, but it was not His perfect will. It is this kind of stuff that opens people's eyes.

I have to investigate this thought further.

seekr

segell · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 13:15:40 »

An emphatic yes. And His temple today is found in those who are His.

Quote

1 Corinthians 3: 16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

The heart of the matter is this - who constructs God's temple?[/color]

James Rondon · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 13:33:36 »

Quote

Interesting, cliftyman. Along with this is the fact that the people wanted a king and God allowed it, but it was not His perfect will. It is this kind of stuff that opens people's eyes.

I have to investigate this thought further.

seekr

In order to investigate this thought further, don't forget about the King who eventually came...

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 13:33:36 »

Cliftyman · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 - 15:33:46 »

Quote

The temple for the Chronicler was not a matter of whether God wanted it or not.

Bobby I appreciate your input and I agree that the Chronicler had virtuous reasons for wanting to build the temple, and I think also it was due in part to guilt.

The question however is \"did God want the temple?\"

Nathan's prophecy seems to indicate otherwise doesn't it?

Does God want our man-made temples today? Do the gospels and the epistles state otherwise?

Obviously God doesn't mind... but there is always a good way to do something and the best way to do something... if you know what I mean...[/color]

ollie · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed Aug 03, 2005 - 06:21:56 »

Is God's presence in His temple today?

ollie

seekr · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed Aug 03, 2005 - 12:34:05 »

I think our man constructed temples are a detriment more than anything else because we call it God's house, when scripture says, we are.

seekr

Cliftyman · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed Aug 03, 2005 - 17:11:37 »

Quote

I think our man constructed temples are a detriment more than anything else because we call it God's house, when scripture says, we are.

seekr

Its that simple isn't it?

If nothing else we should seek to at least refer to things the way Christ referred to them.... I've never understood how I can see elders, pastors and preachers get up and speak and pray about the building being \"God's House\", or the Church being the building.

It irks me... its more than a pet peeve... its perpetuating a falsehood.... teachers and those who lead should be aware of this and change their ways if that is their way.... there is no excuse.[/color]

ollie · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed Aug 03, 2005 - 18:07:02 »

-- King James
1 Corinthians 3:16 \"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?'

-- American Standard
1 Corinthians 3:16 \"Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?'

Does the use of \"the\" in the KJV and \"a\" in the AS give a different meaning to the context?
\"The\" meaning the church at Corinth as part of the universal church. \"A\" meaning each member of the church at Corinth as part of the universal church or each local congregation since the letter is addressed to the church at Corinth.

Who is Paul saying is the temple of God in each translation?

ollie

Cliftyman · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu Aug 04, 2005 - 08:34:34 »

Quote

“But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in You

Skip · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu Aug 04, 2005 - 09:33:57 »

Why does it matter what we believe on this subject? :D
(Sorry Clifty, I just COULDN'T resist...)

Cliftyman · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu Aug 04, 2005 - 09:56:14 »

It doesn't. I didn't mean that response on the other thread in sarcasm... I was seriously asking because some folks over there were actly like it was a matter of salvation....

Also this thread doesn't have sides... its simply a brainstorming thread....

Perhaps my question was a little too brisk on the other thread... I went back and re-worded it.

Sorry if it seemed bad... :cry:

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Author Topic: Did God ever really want a temple? (Read 4753 times)

marc

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