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Everhope

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Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 05:43:51 »
Hello,

I was going through an article this morning and came across the following, would love to know what's your take on, and do you see an error in this teaching, thank you.

Quoted from Alliance For Life Ministries:


The Greek term for forgiveness means to "lay-aside," which is a different, and less forgiving meaning than the word absolution. When applied to Luke 17:3-4, "If another believer sins, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him. Even if he wrongs you seven times a day and each time turns again and repents, forgive him," this verse takes on a specific meaning. It is addressed to believers, (not everyone in general) and specifies repentance as the all important criteria for forgiving. Without repentance the believer is to be rebuked - period!  Remember, only one criminal that was crucified beside Christ was promised salvation, the one that repented!  For a Christian to forgive a deliberate sinful act without repentance is to condone evil and is sin itself. When people bowed down and humbled themselves before idols, God told Isaiah, "Do not forgive them" (Isaiah 2:9).  No where in Scripture does God indicate that forgiveness is justified without need for repentance, and if that’s good enough for God it should be good enough for us! Forgiveness can only be experienced by those who honestly admit they need it. As is recorded in Psalm 51, David, who was responsible for the deaths of some 2000 fellow soldiers in his adulterous lust for Saul’s daughter, asked God for forgiveness:
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy loving kindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me."

SO WHAT IS REPENTANCE?

The Greek meaning for repentance is "regret," to "think differently," and most notably - change! Many statements of repentance are nothing more than thinly veiled sidesteps to avoid pain resulting from harm someone has done and consequences resulting there from. Repentance means more than remorse for getting caught. While offenders cannot un-spill the milk, they can help clean up the mess they have made. Although it may be impossible at times to know whether repentance is real, we can look for evidence. A truly repentant person will confess wrong, offer no excuses, ask for forgiveness, and accept results. If there is little or no evidence of these criteria being met, an avenue for legitimate forgiveness does not exist - and is not warranted!

FORGIVENESS ALSO DEPENDS ON CIRCUMSTANCES

Sometimes forgiveness is justified when the offender did not know what they were doing at the time.  "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" (Luke: 23-24). This is often true of little children or the spiritually immature. God does not, however, forgive at the expense of His justice. He does not command us to assist and help people who are deliberately and unrepentantly committing wicked acts - Sin. To the contrary, II Chronicles 19:2 states, "Should you help the wicked, and love those that hate the Lord. Therefore, the wrath of the Lord is upon you."

Sometimes forgiveness requires us to forgive over and over again, as illustrated above in Luke 17:3-4 and Mt. 18:21-22.
And sometimes we are required to withhold forgiveness for sake of the one who has harmed us and society in general. In this case it is the responsibility of a wounded Christian to act. If the wound comes from a believer, we are instructed (as stated earlier) to rebuke him, which is to be in best interest of the brother or sister who harmed us. From a Christian perspective, to hold people accountable for their actions is a way of honoring them, and shows they are important enough for us to take their actions seriously. To not forgive should not be confused with bitterness, which is destructive.
But nothing is worse for the offender than to be allowed to go on in his or her sin unchallenged and uncared for until led into the judgment hall of God!

When someone is forgiven, God does not suspend the natural law of sowing and reaping, nor does He forgive so all consequences of our sin can be removed. He removes guilt and shame, but not scars and consequences with which we must live! Leaving vengeance in the hands of God is not to deny justice against those who have harmed us. King David received forgiveness from God but paid an awful price in the death of his son, family discord, and national turmoil (2 Sam. 12:13-23).
Contrary to modern theology God does not forget our sins. In Jeremiah 31:34, "I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more," the word "remember," in Hebrew, means "mention," a much different meaning. God does not teach us to forget, but rather not to hold sins against one another. God did not forget the sins of Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Rahab, Paul, Peter, and other forgiven people.

While it is necessary to love in order to show Christ-like forgiveness, it is not necessary to forgive in order to show Christ-like love. The "I forgive you for my own sake" attitude that advocates forgiveness for purely personal therapeutic selfish reasons is based on wrong theology. The danger is this rhetorical "sleight-of-hand" undermines the loving forgiveness taught in the Bible to a self-centered act of self-protection. In many ways it is seen as an unconditional offering of pardon that says, "No matter what you have done to me, I forgive you."  One in which cowardice and apathy receive absolution, while the perpetrator feels justification, thereby allowing evil to be condoned at the expense of the innocent.

I saw this quote the other day from a person who was shot in the head and left for dead, "I forgive him for shooting me. I do it for me, to go on with my life."  Although this popular form of emotional therapy, (a forgiveness grounded in me-ism), has run rampant through our churches and society in general, it’s as ungodly as the "Golden Calf." Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Protestant theologian killed by Nazis called it "cheap grace."

In my many years of ministry I have never experienced forgiveness from any Christian pastor, priest, or profamily leader. I am also certain the vast majority of clergy do not actually believe what they preach concerning this virtue, and people who populate their churches feel likewise. In fact, most Christians with whom I have had a disagreement have not prayed for me to "see the light" if they felt I have wronged then, but made every vindictive effort at their disposal to destroy our ministry. Here is a typical example: "As a practicing catholic all my life I am infuriated at your unjustified hatred for people who live a life-style you do not agree with. My religion is about reconciliation and forgiveness for all Gods people. I will do everything possible to tell my friends about your intolerant ministry and convince them to not financially support you."

"None of my clients ever turned the other cheek," said an attorney representing families of murder victims at the hands of a serial killer, "none of them ever forgave him." A Christian NASCAR owner wrote to a clothing store catalog publisher who promoted sexually implicit material in their advertising, "I intend to work diligently to make as many Americans as possible aware of your sexually provocative advertising campaign and to encourage them to boycott . . . My hope is your business will indeed suffer as a result." Did we forgive Timothy McVeigh for his Oklahoma City bombing of a Federal building? What do you think will happen to terrorists that work to destroy our country? "Those who forgive unrepentant evildoers," says Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby, "make the world not a better place, but a worse one."

As a foreign missionary stated at a church I attended, "How is it that I see an apparent spiritual awakening, a revival of sorts, super-churches, tremendous television and radio ministries, great crusades and conferences, and thousands of people coming to them, and still the whole moral fiber of our country is continuing to slip?"  We must be careful that our mercy is in the best interest of the other party and not merely a self-deceiving effort to avoid confrontation. Poor theology has taught us to forgive when we think it is in our best interest. God wants us to forgive when it is in the best interest of others!"

Everhope

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Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 05:43:51 »

Offline ela

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 07:57:00 »
Good Morning Everhope!!
Of course this is just my take,...... but 1st, I never fully trust all of someone's teachings. I glean what I believe to be true....as we are all learning and no one has the complete market cornered on every aspect of God.
 
 
Next, as per the 1st scripture in Luke you have written. That scripture has also to do with trust (imo). I will completely forgive you in my heart (wipe the slate clean, because in scripture as a whole, it is quite evident that I have to), but it does not mean that I should trust you and go about as though you have repented and changed your ways when you haven't.. So, in my heart I have forgiven you, but as far as our relationship goes, things can only change when you show that you realize that you have caused harm to our relationship. Then it says that if this happens over and over again, keep a heart of forgivness on your part,  but only trust them (and go back to the way it was before) when the other person does their part. This is just wise.
 
 
Scripture says that it provides everything needed for "life and Godliness"....which to me means that it covers every nuance of life....and nuance of Godliness....and it is apparent that the writer did not study to show himself approved when it came to the nuances - which is where much of truth resides. (Most truth is not laying out on the surface, except there are a couple basic/main truths that are.)
 
 
Forgiveness is a heart thing. It is also not always an easy thing....because it also involves our emotions. It usually involves some hard praying and sometimes more than once or twice...or more.
 
 
This writer also has not taken a good (or even quick) look at the ministry of His Savior....who is the One who exemplifies God to THE T! IF Jesus exemplified God exactly....then, what this writer said in the 3rd paragraph was wrong!!--
 
 
 He does not command us to assist and help people who are deliberately and unrepentantly committing wicked acts - Sin. To the contrary, II Chronicles 19:2 states, "Should you help the wicked, and love those that hate the Lord. Therefore, the wrath of the Lord is upon you."
 
 
Christ repeatedly associated with sinners....the above scripture is in the old system, before Christ, when there was only "the letter of the law", which was merciless. One of the MOST important concepts of Christianity is that Jesus came to save the lost. It is the sick that need a physician. (Hmmm...I'd like to write that writer....as he is promoting hate toward sinners and personally keeping them away from God...well, hopefully he is doing out of just not knowing...and not intentionally)

  ::smile:: ::prayinghard::
   
 

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 07:57:00 »

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 09:30:12 »
Hi Ela, yes, I agree with you, I certainly don't take in everything I read around since almost always error comes in between a lot of truths, and we are to be discerning and check against scripture to see if things are so.

I do agree with you on the rest too, only apart of the fact that Jesus did not hang out much with sinners who did not want to change their way, He came, preached, and went. He did not stop with those who rejected Him but have had quite a harsh exchange with some.

The author of the article totally blew me away with the following:



JESUS OF SCRIPTURE

What does it really mean to be "Christ-like?" St. John said we must be willing to "walk as Jesus did" (I John 2:6).  So with that thought in mind, let’s take a quick stroll through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to see how our Master walked. For the time being let’s leave His teaching aside, which we are also admonished to follow, and look solely at His actions. Let’s look at what Jesus actually did, rather than what we would like to believe about Him!

Jesus did not preach the good news only. His prophecies about the future were often very frightening. His teachings are not some "here are my feelings, what do you think?" philosophy. Almost every time Jesus went into the temple it was to have controversy with wicked leaders. (John II: 7-8, Mark 11, Luke 19, Matthew 21). When He visited the synagogues there was controversy (Luke 4), (Mark 1-3).

In Matthew we find that Jesus rebuked His followers and irritated religious leaders by healing on the Sabbath. He called Pharisees hypocrites and vipers, and didn’t care when they were offended because they didn’t like that He "collared outside the lines of their man-made religion." He rebuked Peter, was exasperated at people’s unbelief, and stood up for children.
In Mark we see Jesus was angry and distressed at stubborn hearts, "borrowed" a colt without permission, cursed a tree and it died.

In Luke He said true but insulting things to people from His home town, rebuked John and James, insulted religious leaders, made sure His disciples were armed with swords, and referred to Herod as a "Fox."

In John He made a whip and drove business men from the temple and vandalized their property. He talked to a strange woman (against the custom), called people on their duplicity, offended people with His hard teaching, and called religious leaders children of the devil. He considered it better to let Mary use expensive perfume on Him rather than sell it and give the money to the poor, and showed no respect for the high priest.

Jesus praised His cousin, John the Baptist, who judged and publicly ridiculed Herod for adultery. "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist." Can you imagine Jesus apologizing to Herod for what His cousin said about Herod’s adulterous lifestyle?

Though it may anger some, it happens to be a fact that when some people attempted to seek Jesus for help, He would withdraw to a private place and not immediately help them. One illustration is in Matt 15: 21 - 29 where Jesus innately refused to answer the request of a Canaan woman whose daughter was demon possessed. Today’s popular Jesus would have emptied every graveyard, healed every illness, cast out every demon, and never refused a request for aid. Yet, the real Jesus did refuse to listen to this woman initially, and had it not been for her intensity, and for her faithful answer to a question she was asked, the account in Matthew clearly indicated Jesus would have stolidly refused to have helped the woman’s daughter.
A chilling analogy comes from the parable in the nineteenth chapter of Luke where Jesus said, "But bring here those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."

This was the kind of person who drew great crowds of thousands, yet often made people feel uncomfortable. His brand of kindness was not always a sweet medicine. If, Webster says, nice means to be pleasing, agreeable or socially acceptable, then Jesus was not very nice. His life and His death proved that point.

The principle of give or forgiveness, loving, and sharing, was what Jesus preached and practiced. But never did He intend to imply that a Christian under His New Testament teachings was not obligated to obey the commandments which He, Jesus, in His preexistent state, had written with His own finger! The Christian Church would not have advanced beyond Jerusalem and would have been stopped before it got started if it had relied on the timid, soft-sell propaganda that is used today to define our Lord.


It is very hard fr me to accept this sort of teaching, although it is in scripture. It's incredible how different authors focus on particular sides and expand on those, I think if we pick the truth from each we may end up with almost complete picture of the whole, if this at all is possible down on earth.

Thank you for the input, always very much appreciated.

God bless

Everhope


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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 09:30:12 »

Offline afaithfulone4u

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 09:33:56 »
Greetings Sister Everhope,
I am in agreement with much of what you have shown here.
When we see someone that is a brother walking in sin, we are to rebuke them, out of love. If they sin against us we are to forgive them in our heart as to not hold them to the payment of the sin for oursake(vengance is God's), for we too have sought God to forgive us for the multitude of things that we have done against Him in our lives, yet hopefully less and less as we grow in Christ.
However I believe that the releasing of a brother's sin against us is not only for our own souls growth, but to not hold this against them as to reap punishment that even we deserve.
We are not however to OVERLOOK their sin as if they did not do it. But our goal as a Christian is to bring it to the Light so that it is exposed. NOT to the world or others, but to the one who is in error in hopes that they will choose to repent and change. We are never to hope punishment on ANY man but mercy of a repentant heart to the saving of their soul.
Man's carnal way is one of two:
1. They hide the sin of another and allow the sin to continue as if they did not know about it, befriending them to their destruction and the one who allows it.
2. They seek to embarass by gossip or exposing in a way that brings them into physical punishment such as jail which changes no one, only brings them in contact with those who will teach them more ways to sin.

I do agree with 2Chron, for all Word is for our learning and God NEVER changes, when it says:

 2 Chron 19:2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.
KJV
I understand from scripture that while we do not withhold a sandwhich from a starving man in front of us just because he does not believe in God, we do not go into all the world finding the lost to just feed them natural food, bring blankets when they are living in disobedience to God!.... These are really starving from a famine of the Word in his life and the Bread of life is what will save ungodly men's lives.
We do not become a welfare system using the kingdom of God's wealth to help buy those who do not seek God for their needs. We also do not help the ungodly to survive in their ungodly ways by giving them material gain when they have rejected Christ and live unrepentant lives of sin IN the misery that it brings that is meant for their good, to bring them BACK to God where things are good.
So when the ungodly are living without God in a sinful lifestyle the best thing we can do for them is SERVE The Word to them so that they can learn how to overcome their lusts of the flesh that cause them to sin against God and man that is causing their dark, chaotic, sick, diseased, poverty striken life of TROUBLES. It's the godly, loving and merciful thing to do.

We can take the lesson from the prodical son. Though he went away to live a life of sin, the father never chased after him or sent more funds to keep him living in the sinful manner he chose for his life. When he decided to repent and return to the Father's house, he was already forgiven by his father.
We must rebuke our brethren and ignore them if need be if they walk in unfaithfulness to Christ/The Word. And that is for THEIR good out of the love of Christ, but not treat them as an unbeliever. But in our hearts we can not hold them and us captive to bitterness or unforgiveness it breeds death to our health(stress,fear, hatred kills).
As for the unbelievers around us, we must not give them anything to help them support their miserys that are due to rejection of God in their life. Does not mean we can not be kind or considerate to them, but not SUPPORT them or hangout as friends.
But as they nailed Jesus to the cross and the stoned Stephen to death, they made sure their heart was pure before God as they asked God to forgive them for they knew not what they do and to charge not this against the unbeblievers who did those things to them. For this is why Jesus had compassion on the people for he understands that man is under the captivity of Satan and they don't realize it, nor do they know how to break Free. It is our job to release them so they can be in their RIGHT mind : )
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 09:46:14 by afaithfulone4u »

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 09:33:56 »

Offline ela

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 13:00:31 »
Hi Ela, yes, I agree with you, I certainly don't take in everything I read around since almost always error comes in between a lot of truths, and we are to be discerning and check against scripture to see if things are so.

I do agree with you on the rest too, only apart of the fact that Jesus did not hang out much with sinners who did not want to change their way, He came, preached, and went. He did not stop with those who rejected Him but have had quite a harsh exchange with some.

The author of the article totally blew me away with the following:



JESUS OF SCRIPTURE

What does it really mean to be "Christ-like?" St. John said we must be willing to "walk as Jesus did" (I John 2:6).  So with that thought in mind, let’s take a quick stroll through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to see how our Master walked. For the time being let’s leave His teaching aside, which we are also admonished to follow, and look solely at His actions. Let’s look at what Jesus actually did, rather than what we would like to believe about Him!

Jesus did not preach the good news only. His prophecies about the future were often very frightening. His teachings are not some "here are my feelings, what do you think?" philosophy. Almost every time Jesus went into the temple it was to have controversy with wicked leaders. (John II: 7-8, Mark 11, Luke 19, Matthew 21). When He visited the synagogues there was controversy (Luke 4), (Mark 1-3).

In Matthew we find that Jesus rebuked His followers and irritated religious leaders by healing on the Sabbath. He called Pharisees hypocrites and vipers, and didn’t care when they were offended because they didn’t like that He "collared outside the lines of their man-made religion." He rebuked Peter, was exasperated at people’s unbelief, and stood up for children.
In Mark we see Jesus was angry and distressed at stubborn hearts, "borrowed" a colt without permission, cursed a tree and it died.

In Luke He said true but insulting things to people from His home town, rebuked John and James, insulted religious leaders, made sure His disciples were armed with swords, and referred to Herod as a "Fox."

In John He made a whip and drove business men from the temple and vandalized their property. He talked to a strange woman (against the custom), called people on their duplicity, offended people with His hard teaching, and called religious leaders children of the devil. He considered it better to let Mary use expensive perfume on Him rather than sell it and give the money to the poor, and showed no respect for the high priest.

Jesus praised His cousin, John the Baptist, who judged and publicly ridiculed Herod for adultery. "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist." Can you imagine Jesus apologizing to Herod for what His cousin said about Herod’s adulterous lifestyle?

Though it may anger some, it happens to be a fact that when some people attempted to seek Jesus for help, He would withdraw to a private place and not immediately help them. One illustration is in Matt 15: 21 - 29 where Jesus innately refused to answer the request of a Canaan woman whose daughter was demon possessed. Today’s popular Jesus would have emptied every graveyard, healed every illness, cast out every demon, and never refused a request for aid. Yet, the real Jesus did refuse to listen to this woman initially, and had it not been for her intensity, and for her faithful answer to a question she was asked, the account in Matthew clearly indicated Jesus would have stolidly refused to have helped the woman’s daughter.
A chilling analogy comes from the parable in the nineteenth chapter of Luke where Jesus said, "But bring here those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."

This was the kind of person who drew great crowds of thousands, yet often made people feel uncomfortable. His brand of kindness was not always a sweet medicine. If, Webster says, nice means to be pleasing, agreeable or socially acceptable, then Jesus was not very nice. His life and His death proved that point.

The principle of give or forgiveness, loving, and sharing, was what Jesus preached and practiced. But never did He intend to imply that a Christian under His New Testament teachings was not obligated to obey the commandments which He, Jesus, in His preexistent state, had written with His own finger! The Christian Church would not have advanced beyond Jerusalem and would have been stopped before it got started if it had relied on the timid, soft-sell propaganda that is used today to define our Lord.


It is very hard fr me to accept this sort of teaching, although it is in scripture. It's incredible how different authors focus on particular sides and expand on those, I think if we pick the truth from each we may end up with almost complete picture of the whole, if this at all is possible down on earth.

Thank you for the input, always very much appreciated.

God bless

Everhope


Everhope, I appreciate your great attitiude! ::smile::




(Please excuse this being in my own words) I never suggested that Jesus went about will-nilly and showered His presence on just anyone. I would ask that you please go back and read again what I said. 1st I said 'sinners'...not Christians or the religious. I also said 'frequently'....not always. As He knew people's hearts intimately and knew the particulars.




Jesus' over all ministry was to 1st, show who God is by his behavior and life -- because He was in everyway God in the flesh. 2nd, His ministry was to draw all people to Himself/to God --which unequivically meant to call sinners, as it is the sick that need a physician.





Most of the article that you site is speaking about how hard He was on Christians and the religious....of which I was not speaking about.






During this election (sorry for bringing this up) I see how Christians are SO hard on those that they consider sinners....biting and hating and so much anger. For some reason they think this will help things and...show how great and how right  and how loving (that same love that saved them when they were sinners) God is?? This flies in the face of Christ's whole ministry, which was to...well, I already said it. 
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 13:04:27 by ela »

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 13:00:31 »



Offline fish153

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:28:26 »
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.  And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." (Matt. 5:38-41)

If we need to wait for somone to apologize first, why turn the other cheek?  Jesus said to "pray for your enemies". Have your enemies asked you for forgiveness before you pray for them?  You may want to re-think what you are stating in the OP.

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:28:26 »

Offline ela

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:39:08 »
Greetings Sister Everhope,
I am in agreement with much of what you have shown here.
When we see someone that is a brother walking in sin, we are to rebuke them, out of love. If they sin against us we are to forgive them in our heart as to not hold them to the payment of the sin for oursake(vengance is God's), for we too have sought God to forgive us for the multitude of things that we have done against Him in our lives, yet hopefully less and less as we grow in Christ.
However I believe that the releasing of a brother's sin against us is not only for our own souls growth, but to not hold this against them as to reap punishment that even we deserve.
We are not however to OVERLOOK their sin as if they did not do it. But our goal as a Christian is to bring it to the Light so that it is exposed. NOT to the world or others, but to the one who is in error in hopes that they will choose to repent and change. We are never to hope punishment on ANY man but mercy of a repentant heart to the saving of their soul.
Man's carnal way is one of two:
1. They hide the sin of another and allow the sin to continue as if they did not know about it, befriending them to their destruction and the one who allows it.
2. They seek to embarass by gossip or exposing in a way that brings them into physical punishment such as jail which changes no one, only brings them in contact with those who will teach them more ways to sin.

I do agree with 2Chron, for all Word is for our learning and God NEVER changes, when it says:

 2 Chron 19:2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.
KJV
I understand from scripture that while we do not withhold a sandwhich from a starving man in front of us just because he does not believe in God, we do not go into all the world finding the lost to just feed them natural food, bring blankets when they are living in disobedience to God!.... These are really starving from a famine of the Word in his life and the Bread of life is what will save ungodly men's lives.
We do not become a welfare system using the kingdom of God's wealth to help buy those who do not seek God for their needs. We also do not help the ungodly to survive in their ungodly ways by giving them material gain when they have rejected Christ and live unrepentant lives of sin IN the misery that it brings that is meant for their good, to bring them BACK to God where things are good.
So when the ungodly are living without God in a sinful lifestyle the best thing we can do for them is SERVE The Word to them so that they can learn how to overcome their lusts of the flesh that cause them to sin against God and man that is causing their dark, chaotic, sick, diseased, poverty striken life of TROUBLES. It's the godly, loving and merciful thing to do.

We can take the lesson from the prodical son. Though he went away to live a life of sin, the father never chased after him or sent more funds to keep him living in the sinful manner he chose for his life. When he decided to repent and return to the Father's house, he was already forgiven by his father.
We must rebuke our brethren and ignore them if need be if they walk in unfaithfulness to Christ/The Word. And that is for THEIR good out of the love of Christ, but not treat them as an unbeliever. But in our hearts we can not hold them and us captive to bitterness or unforgiveness it breeds death to our health(stress,fear, hatred kills).
As for the unbelievers around us, we must not give them anything to help them support their miserys that are due to rejection of God in their life. Does not mean we can not be kind or considerate to them, but not SUPPORT them or hangout as friends.
But as they nailed Jesus to the cross and the stoned Stephen to death, they made sure their heart was pure before God as they asked God to forgive them for they knew not what they do and to charge not this against the unbeblievers who did those things to them. For this is why Jesus had compassion on the people for he understands that man is under the captivity of Satan and they don't realize it, nor do they know how to break Free. It is our job to release them so they can be in their RIGHT mind : )

Gotta question for you  ::smile:: .....
Do you believe that Jesus was (and is) God in the flesh  and spoke for God?
Hebrews 1:3
His Son is the reflection  of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything  together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their  sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in  heaven.
 
 
 If you do then here is just one of many things Jesus said that either made us look much deeper or consider the very opposite of how God dealt with sin and behavior in the Old Covenant...in Matthew 5: (with 2 Chron.19:2 in mind)
38“You  have heard the law of Moses that says the punishment must match the injury: (Lev. 24:19-20) ‘An eye for  an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’p 39But  I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek,  offer the other cheek also. 40If  you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat,  too. 41If a  soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,q carry it two  miles. 42Give  to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.
 
 
God does not change. However, because of Christ, there is a forever way to deal with and forgive sin for all people...whereas in the OT gentile sinners died under their weight of sin, because there was no sacrifice for all.....only God's people had a way of dealing with sin by their regular animal sacrifices. Now, however, because of Jesus, the gentiles ( all non-Jews = meaning, everyone else) now have a way of being a child of God.
 
 
The prodical son was speaking about Christians, not sinners. It was speaking to us and our relationship with God.
 
 
God is very specific...and we have to make sure who is being referred to. Unsaved? Christian? Backslider? Religious? ...and if those folks were under the old or new Covenant.
 
Jesus was very harsh on the religious leaders and even His own followers.....yet went and spent time with sinners...
 
Matthew 9:9-13
9As Jesus was walking  along, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at his tax collector’s booth. “Follow me and be my disciple,” Jesus said to him. So Matthew  got up and followed him 10Later, Matthew  invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many  tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. 11But when the  Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with  such scum?d 12When Jesus heard  this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people  do.” 13Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show  mercy, not offer sacrifices.’e For I have come to call not those who  think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”
 
 
Yes, Jesus was hard on sinners, but only after He had spent time with them and shown them exactly who He was...as in Matthew 11: 20-24.
 
Yes, light has no friendship with darkness, so, it is obvious that being yoked, as a good friend for instance, with someone who is a non-Christian, wouldn't work....but God is never suggesting that we be best friends with those outside Christianity. He and then Paul (in 1 Cor. chapters 9, 10 & 11) however, teach us how to be with sinners so as to win them, without fearing being like them.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:44:42 »
New International Version (©1984)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Yes Jesus will forgive us if we confess to Him..
 
 

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:49:30 »
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.  And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." (Matt. 5:38-41)

If we need to wait for somone to apologize first, why turn the other cheek?  Jesus said to "pray for your enemies". Have your enemies asked you for forgiveness before you pray for them?  You may want to re-think what you are stating in the OP.

 
fish you are right, and I have forgiven people for awful things who have never appologised and probably will never do so.We forgive because thats what we are told to do, and that what benefits us, regardless of what the other person does or doesnt do. We arent responsible for the other person. We pray for them and ask God to bless them.
 We can also ask God to bring them to repentance so that they can be forgiven as well.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:52:48 by chosenone »

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 14:49:30 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 15:10:22 »
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.  And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." (Matt. 5:38-41)

If we need to wait for somone to apologize first, why turn the other cheek?  Jesus said to "pray for your enemies". Have your enemies asked you for forgiveness before you pray for them?  You may want to re-think what you are stating in the OP.

 
fish you are right, and I have forgiven people for awful things who have never appologised and probably will never do so.We forgive because thats what we are told to do, and that what benefits us, regardless of what the other person does or doesnt do. We arent responsible for the other person. We pray for them and ask God to bless them.
 We can also ask God to bring them to repentance so that they can be forgiven as well.

Amen to both this and fish's entry.
 
Matthew 5:44
  But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 
Luke 6:28
  bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.   

Offline Man_Of_Honor

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 17:56:47 »
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.  And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." (Matt. 5:38-41)

If we need to wait for somone to apologize first, why turn the other cheek?  Jesus said to "pray for your enemies". Have your enemies asked you for forgiveness before you pray for them?  You may want to re-think what you are stating in the OP.

 
fish you are right, and I have forgiven people for awful things who have never appologised and probably will never do so.We forgive because thats what we are told to do, and that what benefits us, regardless of what the other person does or doesnt do. We arent responsible for the other person. We pray for them and ask God to bless them.
 We can also ask God to bring them to repentance so that they can be forgiven as well.

+1.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Sep 17, 2012 - 18:04:38 »
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’  But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.  And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." (Matt. 5:38-41)

If we need to wait for somone to apologize first, why turn the other cheek?  Jesus said to "pray for your enemies". Have your enemies asked you for forgiveness before you pray for them?  You may want to re-think what you are stating in the OP.

 ::clappingoverhead::
 ::amen!::

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 06:38:00 »
In my understanding the author of the article was pointing to the very same thing you are all talking about. He is simply stating that some times forgiveness may take different forms, forgiving one for their wrongdoing and acting as nothing ever happened, as in "hey..now now, it's ok, we do these things, it happens :-D", simply reinforces them to do it again and it's ok, while withholding forgiveness (as it seems to them, but we are not withholding anything, we just think of what's in their best interest, be cruel to be kind comes to mind) may point to one that what they are doing is actually wrong and has consequences. I think this is what s/he meant when they said forgive when it's in the best interest of others, not for yourself.

We are forgiven accepted and loved, the mistakes we do have been already forgiven and we are strengthened to deal with the consequences. So there are consequences, and we have to live with those. They help us grow and learn, in a lot of cases learn what NOT to do again. Will we learn if there were no consequences?

Of course we are to forgive, but in different cases forgiveness takes different shapes, and is very much depending on the other person's willingness to repent (because some truly want to, it just doesn't come this easy, as with addictions etc).

Any way, I really didn't see the point of the sarcasm and the "this is WRONG and that is right" remarks. I only shared what struck me while surfing the net, I did not say it's 100% right or wrong. With these things we can read between the lines (unlike with the bible where it says what it means and means what it says) and in a lot of cases I personally am greatly amused by the author's personality, revealed in the topics they have chosen to focus on, and their way with words.

Again, this wasn't meant to stir up your minds, it's just a different point of view, that may meet ours in some parts or stray from it in others. It was just a fun read, relax lol.

BTW, Afaithfulone4u, I agree with you 100%.

It is difficult to know how one should react to whatever comes on the way, but we are only given sufficient grace for today and for the situations we are to face today, it may not be enough for tomorrow or at a later point, so we deal with whoever/whatever as we go and as we are led by the Spirit. Loving your enemies may take completely different angles in the various situation we encounter, but in the end of the day it will be out of love by those who abide in Christ, an unnatural love that I believe many of us have experienced. 

Have an awesome day/evening, God bless

Everhope


Offline DaveW

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 07:48:00 »
There are various levels of forgiveness. 

The first and most basic level is somewhat universal.  IT was demonstrated on the cross as Our Lord said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  It requires no response or even knowledge of the offence on the part of the offender. This first level is an absolute requirement for all believers to anyone and everyone.

The next level involves an interaction between the injured and the offender. A statement of the offence can be made and an apology can be offered, even if there is no overt change in behavior.  This level of forgiveness is required if the offence is between believers.  While it puts away the offence, it does not necessarily restore proper fellowship.

The next level requires repentance and a change of behavior of the offender. It can lead to complete restored fellowship between the parties.  This is to be sought if at all possible.

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:19:30 »
Thanks DaveW, this is helpful, I just don't know if I want to ask God for the forgiveness of those who continue to live in sin willingly and knowingly, after having heard all knowing all read all. I feel uncomfortable somewhat. I do want to pray for those people, some of which I love dearly, but I feel as if I am abusing His goodness. I don't have to rely on feelings, but then I look in the bible and I see:

   “As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you.
(Jeremiah 7:16 ESV)

   Therefore, thus says the LORD, Behold, I am bringing disaster upon them that they cannot escape. Though they cry to me, I will not listen to them.
(Jeremiah 11:11 ESV)

   “Therefore do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer on their behalf, for I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their trouble.
(Jeremiah 11:14 ESV)

   Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.”
(Ezekiel 8:18 ESV)

   Then they will cry to the LORD,
      but he will not answer them;
   he will hide his face from them at that time,
      because they have made their deeds evil.
(Micah 3:4 ESV)

   “I hate, I despise your feasts,
      and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.
   Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings,
      I will not accept them;
   and the peace offerings of your fattened animals,
      I will not look upon them.
   Take away from me the noise of your songs;
      to the melody of your harps I will not listen.
   But let justice roll down like waters,
      and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
(Amos 5:21-24 ESV)

   If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
   
(1 John 5:16 ESV)

   For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
(Hebrews 10:26 ESV)

etc..

So you see, this is why I feel guilty praying for these people, who have heard His word, but reject Him, and continue in their sinful ways. I know some may not agree, but perhaps some one can shed light on this issue for me because I am struggling. Thank you. Please if you are to shed light do it in biblically based fashion, thank you.

Blessings

Everhope

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:28:25 »
So you see, this is why I feel guilty praying for these people, who have heard His word, but reject Him, and continue in their sinful ways. I know some may not agree, but perhaps some one can shed light on this issue for me because I am struggling. Thank you. Please if you are to shed light do it in biblically based fashion, thank you.

Blessings

Everhope

How long do you think it was from the first moment you had God's goodness shared with you until the day the scales fell from your eyes and were able to embrace it?
 

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:32:01 »
So you see, this is why I feel guilty praying for these people, who have heard His word, but reject Him, and continue in their sinful ways. I know some may not agree, but perhaps some one can shed light on this issue for me because I am struggling. Thank you. Please if you are to shed light do it in biblically based fashion, thank you.

Blessings

Everhope

How long do you think it was from the first moment you had God's goodness shared with you until the day the scales fell from your eyes and were able to embrace it?
 

Let me think...em...about 5 and a half years lol is this relevant? Perhaps it is. I see your point, I think.

Everhope

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:36:59 »
So you see, this is why I feel guilty praying for these people, who have heard His word, but reject Him, and continue in their sinful ways. I know some may not agree, but perhaps some one can shed light on this issue for me because I am struggling. Thank you. Please if you are to shed light do it in biblically based fashion, thank you.

Blessings

Everhope

How long do you think it was from the first moment you had God's goodness shared with you until the day the scales fell from your eyes and were able to embrace it?
 

Let me think...em...about 5 and a half years lol is this relevant? Perhaps it is. I see your point, I think.

Everhope

Yes, its relevant.  ::smile:: What if those that had shared with you gave up on you because they were leery of sharing and praying for someone who had heard His word for 5 and a half years, but rejected Him, and continued in their sinful ways?
According to scripture, we are to treat others the way we would want to be treated.  If you want to be treated with mercy, be merciful. If you want to be shown patience, be patient. If you want to be persued in love, persue.
On the other hand, if you want people to walk away and give up on you when they decide you're not living up to their schedule...do the same. ::shrug::

Offline Willie T

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:42:23 »
I'm a little surprised anyone would even ask a question such as this.
 
They did the ULTIMATE to Him.......................... You have read about the cross, right?
 
And He said what?
 
FATHER, FORGIVE THEM.
 
Does even one more word need to be said?

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:52:27 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally. We naturally know it is not their fault, some how. What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!

Again, I don't know, assumptions, that's all this is. I believe the truth on this matter will be revealed to me in perfect timing.

Everhope

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 08:59:02 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

 ::frown::
 
It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally. We naturally know it is not their fault, some how. What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!

He tells us to bless those that curse us and pray for those that mistreat us!  Why would He tell us to do that? FOR OUR benefit! Because (in part) it keeps our hearts humble, reminds us we are but dust and that we ask for the very same thing from Him when we fail Him...and we all.fail.Him!!! 

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:01:18 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

 ::frown::
 
It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally. We naturally know it is not their fault, some how. What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!

He tells us to bless those that curse us and pray for those that mistreat us!  Why would He tell us to do that? FOR OUR benefit! Because (in part) it keeps our hearts humble, reminds us we are but dust and that we ask for the very same thing from Him when we fail Him...and we all.fail.Him!!! 

I agree. Thank you. So be it, till further enlightening, thanks.

Blessings

Everhope

Offline Willie T

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:02:15 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally.Far FROM it! 
We naturally know it is not their fault, some how.  What planet have you been living on? 
What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!
Do you understand what "blessings are?  They are what a person NEEDS, not shiny toys and candy.  You go ahead and pray for God's blessings on anyone (yourself, included) and He will determine what they need to receive.
Again, I don't know, assumptions, that's all this is. I believe the truth on this matter will be revealed to me in perfect timing.

Everhope

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:12:10 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally.Far FROM it! 
We naturally know it is not their fault, some how.  What planet have you been living on? 
What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!
Do you understand what "blessings are?  They are what a person NEEDS, not shiny toys and candy.  You go ahead and pray for God's blessings on anyone (yourself, included) and He will determine what they need to receive.
Again, I don't know, assumptions, that's all this is. I believe the truth on this matter will be revealed to me in perfect timing.

Everhope

hahahahahahahhaahaaaa, Willie T, you made me laugh so much, thank you. I understand completely. However, knowing that God is sovereign, in all and above all, does awake forgiveness, since no, they haven't a clue. You can't be angry at a 3 years old child, that's how I see them (unbelievers). I don't know about the planets lol but I do know that being angry at someone for something, it's like being angry at God, since nothing happens without His permission. Sadness, thats what happens to me, and yet we are to rejoice. So yes, we are all fallen. Thank you Lord for loving us just the way we are.

Everhope

Offline Willie T

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:19:07 »
I firmly believe even severe, lingering illnesses or sometimes even prison terms can be blessings God has chosen for an individual.  You see, He is interested in our eternal lives, not our present surroundings necessarily being comfortable.  And only He knows what it may take to reach some of us.

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:27:30 »
So you see, this is why I feel guilty praying for these people, who have heard His word, but reject Him, and continue in their sinful ways. I know some may not agree, but perhaps some one can shed light on this issue for me because I am struggling. Thank you. Please if you are to shed light do it in biblically based fashion, thank you.

Blessings

Everhope

How long do you think it was from the first moment you had God's goodness shared with you until the day the scales fell from your eyes and were able to embrace it?
 

Let me think...em...about 5 and a half years lol is this relevant? Perhaps it is. I see your point, I think.

Everhope

Yes, its relevant.  ::smile:: What if those that had shared with you gave up on you because they were leery of sharing and praying for someone who had heard His word for 5 and a half years, but rejected Him, and continued in their sinful ways?
According to scripture, we are to treat others the way we would want to be treated.  If you want to be treated with mercy, be merciful. If you want to be shown patience, be patient. If you want to be persued in love, persue.
On the other hand, if you want people to walk away and give up on you when they decide you're not living up to their schedule...do the same. ::shrug::

Let me explain. I was led to Christ 7 years ago. This is when I was told the good news, and embraced it right there and then, perhaps because I was dying inside and needed help. Then for the next 5 and a half years I was not allowed to mention the name of the Lord, not allowed to have a bible, nor to talk to my kids about God, because I lived with an anticrist. I slowly started to fall away from the truth and thought of God less and less. About 18 months ago I was delivered from this man (separation, thanks be to God) and returned to the Lord, and everything flew with a great speed. This is how it happened. I don't claim to be different or more special. We are all children of God, all special and all hungry for His truth. And we want to know more and more every day. I just shared an issue I struggle with, that's all, any input is always greatly appreciated, so thank you. Having said all that, starting and end point is always the Word.

Thank you all the very same.

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:29:07 »
I firmly believe even severe, lingering illnesses or sometimes even prison terms can be blessings God has chosen for an individual.  You see, He is interested in our eternal lives, not our present surroundings necessarily being comfortable.  And only He knows what it may take to reach some of us.

I believe this too. We are not home just yet to feel comfortable.


Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #27 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:32:13 »
So you see, this is why I feel guilty praying for these people, who have heard His word, but reject Him, and continue in their sinful ways. I know some may not agree, but perhaps some one can shed light on this issue for me because I am struggling. Thank you. Please if you are to shed light do it in biblically based fashion, thank you.

Blessings

Everhope

How long do you think it was from the first moment you had God's goodness shared with you until the day the scales fell from your eyes and were able to embrace it?
 

Let me think...em...about 5 and a half years lol is this relevant? Perhaps it is. I see your point, I think.

Everhope

Yes, its relevant.  ::smile:: What if those that had shared with you gave up on you because they were leery of sharing and praying for someone who had heard His word for 5 and a half years, but rejected Him, and continued in their sinful ways?
According to scripture, we are to treat others the way we would want to be treated.  If you want to be treated with mercy, be merciful. If you want to be shown patience, be patient. If you want to be persued in love, persue.
On the other hand, if you want people to walk away and give up on you when they decide you're not living up to their schedule...do the same. ::shrug::

Let me explain. I was led to Christ 7 years ago. This is when I was told the good news, and embraced it right there and then, perhaps because I was dying inside and needed help. Then for the next 5 and a half years I was not allowed to mention the name of the Lord, not allowed to have a bible, nor to talk to my kids about God, because I lived with an anticrist. I slowly started to fall away from the truth and thought of God less and less. About 18 months ago I was delivered from this man (separation, thanks be to God) and returned to the Lord, and everything flew with a great speed. This is how it happened. I don't claim to be different or more special. We are all children of God, all special and all hungry for His truth. And we want to know more and more every day. I just shared an issue I struggle with, that's all, any input is always greatly appreciated, so thank you. Having said all that, starting and end point is always the Word.

Thank you all the very same.

Everhope
Sure, the word is always our source of how to live...but, not just reading verses how they pertain to others, but applying them to our own lives, our own heart, our own walk.
If you were shown an act of patient kindness in your time of shallow relationship with God by those in the Body of Christ, surely you can have compassion on others whose circumstances may be different, but the heart issue the same.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 09:35:39 »
I firmly believe even severe, lingering illnesses or sometimes even prison terms can be blessings God has chosen for an individual.  You see, He is interested in our eternal lives, not our present surroundings necessarily being comfortable.  And only He knows what it may take to reach some of us.

Exactly!  Some are extreemely stiff necked and it is only through very trying hard consequences that God is able to finally reach those hearts. It is then that the seeds planted years before (in sharing with them or praying for them) are able to take root and grow! ::smile::

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #29 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 13:43:34 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally.Far FROM it! 
We naturally know it is not their fault, some how.  What planet have you been living on? 
What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!
Do you understand what "blessings are?  They are what a person NEEDS, not shiny toys and candy.  You go ahead and pray for God's blessings on anyone (yourself, included) and He will determine what they need to receive.
Again, I don't know, assumptions, that's all this is. I believe the truth on this matter will be revealed to me in perfect timing.

Everhope

hahahahahahahhaahaaaa, Willie T, you made me laugh so much, thank you. I understand completely. However, knowing that God is sovereign, in all and above all, does awake forgiveness, since no, they haven't a clue. You can't be angry at a 3 years old child, that's how I see them (unbelievers). I don't know about the planets lol but I do know that being angry at someone for something, it's like being angry at God, since nothing happens without His permission. Sadness, thats what happens to me, and yet we are to rejoice. So yes, we are all fallen. Thank you Lord for loving us just the way we are.

Everhope

As a side note in the thread:
 
 
 
Forgiveness doesn't come naturally for us, because the natural man is all about self-gratification, and revenge when crossed.
 
As for anger, God has given us the capacity for anger. We can be angry but we are warned about sinning in the expression of our anger. That is why we need Holy Spirit within us to kill the natural man in us.
 
Righteous anger is not being mad at God. If a person molested your child, you would have every right to foam in anger! God is angry, too! But you cannot go and wring the criminal's neck! Was the molestation something that God had given permission for? NO! Not at all! It was Satan's doing, and so we are right to be angry!
 
It is a real pet peeve of mine that states religiously that evil perpetrated against us is of God, or is OK with God! It isn't!
 
If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are weak in the attack mode ourselves!
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 13:45:49 by Lively Stone »

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #30 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 14:18:34 »
Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally.Far FROM it! 
We naturally know it is not their fault, some how.  What planet have you been living on? 
What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!
Do you understand what "blessings are?  They are what a person NEEDS, not shiny toys and candy.  You go ahead and pray for God's blessings on anyone (yourself, included) and He will determine what they need to receive.
Again, I don't know, assumptions, that's all this is. I believe the truth on this matter will be revealed to me in perfect timing.

Everhope

hahahahahahahhaahaaaa, Willie T, you made me laugh so much, thank you. I understand completely. However, knowing that God is sovereign, in all and above all, does awake forgiveness, since no, they haven't a clue. You can't be angry at a 3 years old child, that's how I see them (unbelievers). I don't know about the planets lol but I do know that being angry at someone for something, it's like being angry at God, since nothing happens without His permission. Sadness, thats what happens to me, and yet we are to rejoice. So yes, we are all fallen. Thank you Lord for loving us just the way we are.

Everhope

As a side note in the thread:
 
 
 
Forgiveness doesn't come naturally for us, because the natural man is all about self-gratification, and revenge when crossed.
 
As for anger, God has given us the capacity for anger. We can be angry but we are warned about sinning in the expression of our anger. That is why we need Holy Spirit within us to kill the natural man in us.
 
Righteous anger is not being mad at God. If a person molested your child, you would have every right to foam in anger! God is angry, too! But you cannot go and wring the criminal's neck! Was the molestation something that God had given permission for? NO! Not at all! It was Satan's doing, and so we are right to be angry!
 
It is a real pet peeve of mine that states religiously that evil perpetrated against us is of God, or is OK with God! It isn't!
 
If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are weak in the attack mode ourselves!

Lively, that's interesting indeed. Perhaps I haven't had this much to forgive, if I find it manageable.  Who knows. I do know that in the mids of trouble the first thing that comes to mind is "forgive, as you have been forgiven". Tadaaa! But, but, but , but..no but, forgive! You don't know what this person is dealing with, or has been dealing with, it is not his fault, forgive...but, but but, no buts...ok! That's how it goes lol It's this simple. Of course there may be things I am scared to think of, like some one stealing my child or hurting any of them. I don't think I can survive this but today I don't have the amount of grace enough for this future event if it's to happen, and whatever is to happen I know God will only put me through what I am able to take.
So, there goes forgiveness. The problem here is how to glorify God's name through this, as in how best to handle the person in order for the name of God and the Lord Jesus to be glorified. This is my deal, and yet, I believe when the time comes He will shine through me, and it will be fine.

I agree on the righteous anger too, what I was talking about is something else.

Lastly, God IS Sovereign, I have no doubts in that. Nothing, absolutely nothing takes Him by surprise,  how can it, He knew your name at the creation of the world, an omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient God either allows events, or creates events.

That's my opinion, I may be right and I may not be. Same goes with you. The only thing we can be sure it's 100% truth and accurate is the Word of God, for the rest we can imagine things all we want :-)

If we are under attack by the adversary it is because we are doing something to the glory of our Lord and His Kingdom. If you are doing nothing much and are on passive mode then he he doesn't have anything to pick on you for, you aren't a threat!
Under attack or not, the enemy can't touch us!

   We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
(1 John 5:18 ESV)

Thank you for the input, Lively, it's always lovely to hear your opinion!

Blessings

Everhope
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 14:26:22 by Everhope »

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #31 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 14:55:24 »
Ooops, I think I forgot to mention, or rather confirm, that yes, I agree with you, the natural man indeed would have some degree of difficulty what comes to forgiveness, and would be "all about self-gratification, and revenge when crossed". So good we are dead to these things, isn't it? What an awesome God we serve!

Have a peaceful day/evening

Everhope

Offline Willie T

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #32 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 14:58:22 »
If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are weak in the attack mode ourselves!
I might re-ponder that one.  Jesus was certainly under attack all the time... certainly those days in the desert.  And He had a fairly strong attack mode.
 
I might say "If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are Christians..... and ACTIVE."  All through the Bible, Satan only attacked the people of God.  And actually, RESISTANCE is ours to wield through dependence on God's strength and power (attack attributes)
 
I understand where you are coming from, and perhaps what you meant to convey, but even in our deliverance ministries out on the streets, we are only in what you might call an "attack mode" in that we do not go into "retreat mode".

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 17:31:58 »
If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are weak in the attack mode ourselves!
I might re-ponder that one.  Jesus was certainly under attack all the time... certainly those days in the desert.  And He had a fairly strong attack mode.
 
I might say "If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are Christians..... and ACTIVE."  All through the Bible, Satan only attacked the people of God.  And actually, RESISTANCE is ours to wield through dependence on God's strength and power (attack attributes)
 
I understand where you are coming from, and perhaps what you meant to convey, but even in our deliverance ministries out on the streets, we are only in what you might call an "attack mode" in that we do not go into "retreat mode".

What I meant was that we as believers need to be aware and to grasp hold of who we are in Christ, so that our walk is such that the enemy has to think twice before trying to hinder us.

Daily, this King's kid is learning to say, "Don't even bother, devil, I am onto you."

Everhope

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Re: Did Jesus teach unconditional forgiveness?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Sep 18, 2012 - 22:55:24 »
If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are weak in the attack mode ourselves!
I might re-ponder that one.  Jesus was certainly under attack all the time... certainly those days in the desert.  And He had a fairly strong attack mode.
 
I might say "If we are under attack by the enemy, it's because we are Christians..... and ACTIVE."  All through the Bible, Satan only attacked the people of God.  And actually, RESISTANCE is ours to wield through dependence on God's strength and power (attack attributes)
 
I understand where you are coming from, and perhaps what you meant to convey, but even in our deliverance ministries out on the streets, we are only in what you might call an "attack mode" in that we do not go into "retreat mode".

What I meant was that we as believers need to be aware and to grasp hold of who we are in Christ, so that our walk is such that the enemy has to think twice before trying to hinder us.

Daily, this King's kid is learning to say, "Don't even bother, devil, I am onto you."

I don't know. God knows. What I do know is that there are christians and christians. Ones that are popular, widespread, worshipers of demons knowingly or not knowingly, and why would he touch them? And there are christians, who are a very small group, who do the commandments of God, heavily under attack by the adversary coming up with all sorts as "they are a sect" and "odd" and "have funny teaching" and one sits and wonders ...oh really? Of course they are a sect, wouldn't satan do anything to prevent one from finding out the truth? He will make sure the world thinks they are a sect BECAUSE they obey the commandments of God, and he will exalt the other group who make their own commandments lol The bible is very clear who he comes against.

Again, whats popular is not always the truth, and the other way around too.

Do you know, I never knew there are a SDA church, or Messianic? I just found out about them some 4 weeks ago, how odd is that? How well has the adversary covered, or tried to cover the truth? I never ever questioned sunday worship either, how deceived are we when we end up not even questioning sin any more? Have mercy on us please Lord.

Ooooh, So NOW we are to walk like Christ, but not when it comes to obeying God's commandments. Interesting!

 ::frown::
 
It is not that. Forgiveness comes naturally. We naturally know it is not their fault, some how. What I struggle with is how to deal with a situation in the best interest of people. Praying for these too, I mean it's clearly stated that there is no sacrifice for unrepented sin. I mean, I would pray for the Lord to unblind them, but it stops here. I feel like, if I pray for blessings on them He will be like...really? Rewarding sin? I don't think so!

He tells us to bless those that curse us and pray for those that mistreat us!  Why would He tell us to do that? FOR OUR benefit! Because (in part) it keeps our hearts humble, reminds us we are but dust and that we ask for the very same thing from Him when we fail Him...and we all.fail.Him!!! 

I agree. Thank you. So be it, till further enlightening, thanks.

Blessings

Everhope

MeMyself, can you please provide biblical support for this? I've been looking but fail to find any. I mean it sounds really good and makes sense, I just need to see it backed up with the Word.

I am still not convinced about praying for the enemies of God, those who have heard all and know all and still reject Him.

   if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
(2 Chronicles 7:14 ESV)

I still feel awkward to ask my Father to reward or support disobedience. I am not talking of those who don't know Him. For them I have no problem praying. I am open to any suggestions based on the Word. Thank you in advance.

Blessings

Everhope

 

     
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