Author Topic: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?  (Read 6931 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #70 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:18:13 »
This is the gospel according to Paul that is to be obeyed:

1 Corinthians 15:1
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

What specifically in that passage must be obeyed?  Paul spoke there of the gospel that he preached to them, but he doesn't say there what that gospel was.  He spoke there of holding fast to the word which he preached to them, but he doesn't say there what that word was.  He said there, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins "according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."  What in that needs to be obeyed?

Offline DaveW

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #71 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:25:28 »
What specifically in that passage must be obeyed?  Paul spoke there of the gospel that he preached to them, but he doesn't say there what that gospel was.  He spoke there of holding fast to the word which he preached to them, but he doesn't say there what that word was.  He said there, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins "according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."  What in that needs to be obeyed?
Did you notice the phrase "according to the Scriptures?" He said it twice, both concerning the death of our Lord and His resurrection.  What scriptures were extant at the time of this writing?  The Hebrew scriptures which we call the Old Testament. 

I suggest you do some digging to find where in the OT it talks about Messiah dying and being resurrected to life.  You can start there.

Offline DaveW

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #72 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:42:15 »
So . you  believe that Paul did water  BAPTIZE  ?
Absolutely he did. 

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #72 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 06:42:15 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #73 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:06:48 »
Did you notice the phrase "according to the Scriptures?" He said it twice, both concerning the death of our Lord and His resurrection.  What scriptures were extant at the time of this writing?  The Hebrew scriptures which we call the Old Testament. 

I suggest you do some digging to find where in the OT it talks about Messiah dying and being resurrected to life.  You can start there.
You still have not answered the question. But then I didn't expect you to answer it.  The answer is probably outside of that block logic approach to God's word.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #73 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:06:48 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #74 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:23:54 »
You still have not answered the question. But then I didn't expect you to answer it.  The answer is probably outside of that block logic approach to God's word.
Have you looked at Isaiah 53 recently? Most of it is there.
But you will not see it unless you really want to.


BTW: it is ENTIRELY within block logic.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #74 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 07:23:54 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #75 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:04:05 »
Have you looked at Isaiah 53 recently? Most of it is there.
But you will not see it unless you really want to.


BTW: it is ENTIRELY within block logic.
It would seem that everything, even untruths, are within block logic.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #75 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:04:05 »

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #76 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:08:14 »
Only in your limited view of what the gospel is.  In your view, what did Paul mean when he spoke of Jesus "inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Tim 1:8)?What do you think is the gospel that is to be obeyed?
4WD, you meant
Quote
2nd Thessalonians 1:8~In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Not 2nd Timothy 1:8! It took me a few minutes to consider the context from which you took your verse from and once I understood you meant 2nd Thessalonians 1:8, and not 2nd Timothy 1:8 then I had to ponder the context before answering you~IF it been 2nd Timothy 1:8 then I knew WELL what 2nd Timothy 1:9 teaches and knew I had you back into a corner where you had serious problems.

So, let us look at 2nd Thessalonians 1:8.
Quote
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
Paul distinguishes unbelievers by these two marks ~ that they know not God, and obey not the gospel of Christ. For if obedience is not rendered to the gospel through faith, as he teaches in the first and in the last chapters of the Epistle to the Romans, (Romans 1:18; Romans 16:17-19) unbelief is the occasion of resistance to the gospel. 4WD, before one can know God, he first must be known of God through election by Grace!
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 4:8,9~"Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Bottom line, ONLY those known of God through his election by grace are the ones that in time will be given the POWER/RIGHT to obey the gospel, this right/power was secured for them by Christ. As I have said many, many times over, NO MAN in the flesh has the power to submit APART from the Spirit of God....impossible! This is not my opinion, but God's very own testimony of this truth. You know it well as far as the letter of the gospel....Romans 8:1-14
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:15:10 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #77 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 08:15:19 »
Bottom line, ONLY those known of God through his election by grace are the ones that in time will be given the POWER/RIGHT to obey the gospel, this right/power was secured for them by Christ. As I have said many, many times over, NO MAN in the flesh has the power to submit APART from the Spirit of God....impossible! This is not my opinion, but God's very own testimony of this truth. You know it well as far as the letter of the gospel....Romans 8:1-14
Do you not understand just how monstrously that presents God?  It makes Him far worse than the any human judge to ever walk the earth.

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #78 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 09:17:38 »
Do you not understand just how monstrously that presents God?  It makes Him far worse than the any human judge to ever walk the earth.
Only from your perception of the truth.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:19-24~"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
I would be very careful not to call God a monster and worse than any human judge to ever walk on this earth. AGAIN, we all had a perfect and most righteous opportunity IN ADAM, who was our representative before God's law, and we all know how he was disobedience to ONE SIMPLE COMMANDMENT given unto him, and that in a body FREE OF SIN! Yet, people like you desire to stand in your OWN PERSON who lives in a body of SIN and DEATH! Dear sir, you have a serious pestilence disease, much like the madness of the prophet Baalam.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 2:16~"But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet."
Just as Christ prophesied concerning the last days:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:7~For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
These things in verse 7 are to be applied in a spiritual sense based on the CONTEXT of Matthew 24:1-25.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #78 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 09:17:38 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #79 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 10:43:04 »
Only from your perception of the truth.
Only from your description of His actions.
Quote from: RB
I would be very careful not to call God a monster and worse than any human judge to ever walk on this earth.
It is not me calling Him that.  It is what your theology calls Him.
Quote from: RB
AGAIN, we all had a perfect and most righteous opportunity IN ADAM,
That is such a ridiculous statement.  The best that you could argue is that God imputed Adam's sin upon the whole of mankind.  But He didn't, no matter how much you want to think so.

(ESV) 2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression...

(KJV) 2Pe 2:16  But was rebuked for his iniquity...


His, not Adam's ! !  And there is nothing at all in Matthew 24 that says anything about condemning anyone for the sins of another.

If God did, which He didn't and doesn't, impute the sin of Adam upon the whole of mankind and then failed to do anything to correct that problem, clearly it is His failure that must be called into question.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #80 on: Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 18:12:34 »
Jarrod, your ability to follow a simple thread is lacking, at least in this place, overall you do fairly well.

Baptism threads are rather simple ::crackup:: ...said nobody ever. 

I never said that the one baptizing an individual should not make sure that those they are baptizing truly believe just as Philip did to the eunuch, and John the Baptist did to those coming to his baptism. (Matthew 3) Nevertheless, baptism is NOT left up to a vote, NOR does water baptism put one into a local body of believers!

Voting seems like a very Greek idea.  The idea of objecting to a proceeding?  That sounds more Jewish.

A baptism is like a wedding in this way.  The audience doesn't get to vote on the thing, but everyone gets a chance to object!

As baptism is a form of adoption, it certainly does put one into a relationship with the local body... and the rest of The Body, for that matter.

If so, which one was the eunuch put into?

I know how you love non-canonical history...  ::tonguefirmlyincheek::

Quote
Ethiopia embraced Christianity and has maintained its doctrines from the era of the apostles to the present day. Acts 8:26-39 recounts the story of the Ethiopian eunuch who was baptized by St. Philip. This eunuch was a minister of Candace, Queen of Ethiopia. This story is the beginning of Ethiopian Church history. Eusebius speaks of this eunuch as the first fruits of the faith in the whole world. Irenaeus writes that he preached the Gospel to the Ethiopians. Tradition further records that the apostle Matthew preached the gospel to the Ethiopians and won a few converts to the new doctrine before leaving the country.


requoted from http://www.scooch.org/member-churches/the-ethiopian-church/

He went on his way rejoicing with NO instruction from Philip to join membership with a visible church.  Why do you think?

He was the first member in his region.  He went forth and created the group.

So to come back to the point... yes baptism puts a person into the church.  That idea IS well-supported by Scripture.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #81 on: Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 04:10:01 »
Only from your description of His actions.It is not me calling Him that.  It is what your theology calls Him.That is such a ridiculous statement.  The best that you could argue is that God imputed Adam's sin upon the whole of mankind.  But He didn't, no matter how much you want to think so.
4WD, as long as you and others reject the two Adam's as head of their posterity will be as long as you and others stay in the dark concerning the truth gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is impossible for anyone to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ without understanding how Adam was a figure of Christ.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
4WD, how was Adam a figure of Christ, and Christ a figure of Adam? Care to give your understanding, or would you like me to do so AGAIN?
Quote
(ESV) 2Pe 2:16  but was rebuked for his own transgression...(KJV) 2Pe 2:16  But was rebuked for his iniquity...
Be careful......You know why I use Balaam and it was not for the reason you are quoting and empathizing! Now that a little deceitful which I would not expect from you. Balaam, like many today had a serious madness or in plain language a spiritual disease much worse than a physical one. I see and hear this madness every day in which we live in this world from men like Jimmy, and Donny Swaggart, Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, and thousands upon thousands more.

Never said we would not give an account of our sins~of course we shall, the righteous IN THIS LIFE~ the wicked at the judgment seat. BUT, as far as WHY we are sinners and HOW we are made righteous is seen once one understands how Adam was a figure of Christ, and Christ of Adam!

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #82 on: Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 04:46:25 »
So to come back to the point... yes baptism puts a person into the church.  That idea IS well-supported by Scripture.
Jarrod~then where are your scriptures to support your theory? A few question for you to answer:

1. What church was Jesus a member of? THE CHURCH has ALWAYS been here btw:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 18:15-17~"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

2. What church was Paul a member of? If baptism puts one INTO a church, surely you have a few examples. Let me know when you find the answer!

3. If Baptism puts one INTO a local body of believers, then would one need to be rebaptized to be part of another body? Where is the consistency if not? This opens up a door for man-made doctrines to be invented to satisfy another man-made doctrine, which opens up an endless cycle of doctrines that cannot be supported by the word of God. Which btw it has done.

I could keep going but enough for now.

Water baptism is strictly between the one doing the baptizing and the person being baptized. All it takes is this:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
In the gospel of Jesus Christ the righteousness of God that he has provided is revealed FROM A PERSON WHO HAS FAITH to a person who has faith! And once accepted with all their heart, then they can be baptized INTO the faith/gospel of Jesus Christ they confess to believe in.

Now, that being said, a local body of believers may require evidence from a baptized person BEFORE allowing that person to come and go out among them JUST AS THEY DID PAUL.
Quote
Acts 9:26-28~"And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
Remember, Paul was baptized by a disciple at Damascus, yet join himself to the disciples for a season at Jerusalem, and very soon no known place but from country to country and from city to city preaching Christ.

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 04:49:30 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #83 on: Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 06:14:11 »
4WD, as long as you and others reject the two Adam's as head of their posterity will be as long as you and others stay in the dark concerning the truth gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is impossible for anyone to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ without understanding how Adam was a figure of Christ.
The interesting aspect of your view of all of this is that while you attribute to Adam the death of the entire human race, you attribute to Jesus the life, that is the overcoming of the death due to Adam, to only a relative few.  Thus in your view, Adam was not a type, a figure, of Jesus at all; in fact in your view, the effects of Jesus obedience pales mightily in comparison to the effects of Adams disobedience.  If Adam is the figure of Christ as you claim, how is it that you see the effects of Adam as universal, yet the effects of Jesus as a mere pittance of that?
Quote from: RB
4WD, how was Adam a figure of Christ, and Christ a figure of Adam? Care to give your understanding, or would you like me to do so AGAIN?
I will give you my understanding of how Adam was a figure, a type, a pattern, of Jesus Christ.  But first we have to understand that the death and life spoken of in Romans 5:12-21 is not physical death and physical life; instead it is spiritual death and spiritual life.  Some want to see the entire passage to be addressing bodily death and bodily resurrection.  That cannot be the case, because life that is being discussed is a life of righteousness.  The physical resurrection is not a resurrection to righteousness.
So then in what manner does Adam prefigure Christ?  Only in this one point, namely, that just as Adam was only one man yet performed a single act that affected the whole human race, so also was Jesus Christ just only one man whose one act likewise affected the whole human race.
Quote from: RB
Never said we would not give an account of our sins~of course we shall, the righteous IN THIS LIFE~ the wicked at the judgment seat. BUT, as far as WHY we are sinners and HOW we are made righteous is seen once one understands how Adam was a figure of Christ, and Christ of Adam!
RB, we are not sinners because of Adam.  We are sinners because we, like Adam, are human beings.  Death didn't spread to all men because Adam sinned; rather, "death spread to all men because all men sinned-- "(Rom 5:12)

Now we understand that all are not righteous.  So what does it mean that the "one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18) ?  How can that be?  Well as you so often attest, the result of the one act of Adam was that all of mankind was born sinful; that is, the one act of Adam resulted in original sin imposed upon mankind. Therefore if Adam was a figure of the one to come (v.14), it must mean that if in Adam all are born sinful, then in Christ all are born righteous.  The message in Romans 5:15-17 is that Christ and His sacrifice are greater than Adam and his sin.  The message in Romans 5:18-19 is that Christ and His sacrifice completely cancels the results of Adam's sin.  In other words, the obedience of Christ nullified the disobedience of Adam.

The cross of Christ is worthy of our trust.  We do not need to doubt the all-encompassing and all-sufficiency of the cross of Christ.  In this passage, it is important to note that the obedience of Jesus is not set over against the disobedience of us; rather the obedience of Jesus is set over against the disobedience of Adam.

Finally I would note that you asked,
Quote from: RB
how was Adam a figure of Christ, and Christ a figure of Adam?
  In the discussion in Romans 5, Adam is presented as a figure of Christ, but it does present Christ as a figure of Adam.  Adam was a type.  Christ was not a type.  Christ was the anti-type.  In the discussion, Adam was a foreshadow of Christ; Christ was most certainly not presented as a foreshadow of Adam.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #84 on: Thu Feb 11, 2021 - 14:32:59 »
Jarrod~then where are your scriptures to support your theory?
This is an ongoing theme found throughout the New Testament, and foreshadowed in the Old.  But if we're settling on just one passage that teaches, I choose 1Corinthians 12 (yes, the whole chapter).  If I must narrow it down to a verse or two, I choose these:

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.  (verses 12-13)

A few question for you to answer:

1. What church was Jesus a member of? THE CHURCH has ALWAYS been here btw:
Is the Head a member?  We are members; he is the Head of THE church.  Yes, there is only one church, though the administration thereof is regionalized.

2. What church was Paul a member of? If baptism puts one INTO a church, surely you have a few examples. Let me know when you find the answer!
THE church.  As for what region Paul held as his home, it would appear to be Jerusalem.  When disputes about his doctrine arose, he traveled there and submitted himself to the ruling of Peter and James who were there.

3. If Baptism puts one INTO a local body of believers, then would one need to be rebaptized to be part of another body? Where is the consistency if not? This opens up a door for man-made doctrines to be invented to satisfy another man-made doctrine, which opens up an endless cycle of doctrines that cannot be supported by the word of God. Which btw it has done.

I could keep going but enough for now.
You've got too much emphasis on the locality.  While there are/were different local administrations under different bishops, there Bible is explicit: just ONE church, only ONE body, and it's all by the same ONE baptism. 

There is no re-baptizing.  A demand for a re-baptism is basically a claim that the person in question was NOT regenerated in their previous baptism.  If God has vouched the person, that's tantamount to opposing God.  If God has NOT vouched the person, then why on earth are you now baptizing them?  You're still opposing God.   Re-baptism should be anathema.

Water baptism is strictly between the one doing the baptizing and the person being baptized. All it takes is this: In the gospel of Jesus Christ the righteousness of God that he has provided is revealed FROM A PERSON WHO HAS FAITH to a person who has faith! And once accepted with all their heart, then they can be baptized INTO the faith/gospel of Jesus Christ they confess to believe in.
My view is thus:

Baptism is an adoption.  This is why one is baptized IN THE NAME - they acquire the family name, along with all the benefits thereof - the inheritance, the authority, etc.

Baptism is not a thing that the baptizee does.  It is something done TO them.  One cannot adopt themselves into a family, only the family itself can adopt new members.  (Thus it is not a work).

Ultimately, it is God who ordains a baptism, but the baptizer must have the (delegated) authority of God to do the baptizing.  Who has that?  The apostles had that, without the need for witnesses or anything else.  That's what it means to be an apostle.  But now, when we do not have apostles in every church or city, by necessity that is the assembly of the brethren.  Where 2 or more are gathered...

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #85 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 04:12:47 »
Finally I would note that you asked,  In the discussion in Romans 5, Adam is presented as a figure of Christ, but it does present Christ as a figure of Adam.  Adam was a type.  Christ was not a type.  Christ was the anti-type.  In the discussion, Adam was a foreshadow of Christ; Christ was most certainly not presented as a foreshadow of Adam.
You cannot say that of one and it not be true of the other...... nevertheless~4WD, I might take this to another thread later simply because water baptism is an essential doctrine taught in the New Testament and we should labor to fully understand water baptism in all of its wide application. Most believers have a superficial knowledge of biblical truths, including water baptism. I want to focus on Jarroh's post for now.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 04:18:29 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #86 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 05:13:51 »
You cannot say that of one and it not be true of the other......
Of course you can. It is a one way street.  It doesn't work the other way.  It works only one way.   A biblical type is a biblical person, thing, action, event, ceremony, structure, furniture, number, etc. that prefigures the  antitype.  The type prefigures the antitype; the type precedes the antitype.  That is fundamental.  The reverse makes no sense whatsoever. Jesus cannot be a type for someone who preceded Him.

Moreover, the study of biblical typology is a study of the things in the OT that prefigures things in the NT; NEVER the other way around.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 05:23:32 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #87 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 05:42:26 »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
So to come back to the point... yes baptism puts a person into the church.  That idea IS well-supported by Scripture.
Quote from: RB
Jarrod~then where are your scriptures to support your theory?
This is an ongoing theme found throughout the New Testament, and foreshadowed in the Old.  But if we're settling on just one passage that teaches, I choose 1Corinthians 12 (yes, the whole chapter).  If I must narrow it down to a verse or two, I choose these:

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.  (verses 12-13)
Jerrod: your passage is certainly about A baptism, but not the same baptism (Christian water baptism) as we have been discussing.  Baptism into the body is not a water baptism nor is it the spiritual baptism discussed elsewhere in 1 Cor 12.  To be baptized means to be immersed.  This is an immersion into the body life of a local congregation and becoming an intrinsic part of its ongoing functioning. It is becoming the effectual hand, foot, eye, etc.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #88 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 05:49:21 »
Just as the 3000 recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit upon water baptism, so shall all.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 20:39:41 by Jaime »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #89 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 06:03:39 »
Just as the 3000 received the gift of the Holy Spirit upon water baptism, so shall all.
You are conflating 3 things that are actually separate and distinct: Christian water baptism, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit baptism. 

While they can and sometimes do all occur together, that is not necessarily so.

This is evidenced in Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius and his household prior to water baptism; and in John 20.22 where the 11 received the indwelling Holy Spirit (regeneration) separately from both water and Holy Spirit baptisms.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 07:27:01 by DaveW »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #90 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 07:02:55 »
You are conflating 3 things that are actually separate and distinct: Christian water baptism, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit baptism. 

While they can and sometimes do all occur together, that is not necessarily so.

This is evidenced in Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit baptized Cornelius and his household prior to water baptism; and in John 20.22 where the 11 received the indwelling Holy Spirit (regeneration) separately from both water and Holy Spirit baptisms.

Water baptism is the occasion for receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit which is baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit baptism.  None of these have anything to do with the Holy Spirit coming upon someone for the empowering to work wonders, signs and miracles.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #91 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 07:13:47 »
Water baptism is the occasion for receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit which is baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit baptism. 
Not so.  the Risen Messiah breathing on the 11 was the "occasion for receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit," and there is no mention of water at all.

Quote
None of these have anything to do with the Holy Spirit coming upon someone for the empowering to work wonders, signs and miracles.

RA Torrey and Rev Z Brad Long (based on Torrey's writings) have made a powerful case for the "baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit" being a function of Spirit Upon instead of Spirit Within (the indwelling). IMO the common pentecostal doctrine that Holy Spirit Baptism and the indwelling are the same thing is patently WRONG.

The acts of power are a function of Spirit Upon; with character strength and wisdom being functions of Spirit Within.  In the original languages, both testaments are quite consistent on that point.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 07:29:23 by DaveW »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #92 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 08:27:31 »
Not so.  the Risen Messiah breathing on the 11 was the "occasion for receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit," and there is no mention of water at all.
So what? You, we, are not one of the Apostles and Jesus is not here physically to breath on us.  But the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) is the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Quote from: DaveW
RA Torrey and Rev Z Brad Long (based on Torrey's writings) have made a powerful case for the "baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit" being a function of Spirit Upon instead of Spirit Within (the indwelling). IMO the common pentecostal doctrine that Holy Spirit Baptism and the indwelling are the same thing is patently WRONG.
I agree.  The Pentecostal doctrine is wrong.

Quote from: DaveW
The acts of power are a function of Spirit Upon; with character strength and wisdom being functions of Spirit Within.  In the original languages, both testaments are quite consistent on that point.
I agree. And Spirit within is the gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit is baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 08:30:16 by 4WD »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #93 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 13:34:28 »
Jerrod: your passage is certainly about A baptism, but not the same baptism (Christian water baptism) as we have been discussing.
They are meant to be one and the same thing.  Whatever difference you find between them is simply a failing of the church to get it right.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4)
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 13:37:17 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #94 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 14:03:20 »
They are meant to be one and the same thing.  Whatever difference you find between them is simply a failing of the church to get it right.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4)
There are 7 distinct baptisms mentioned in the NT.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #95 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 14:14:16 »
There are 7 distinct baptisms mentioned in the NT.
So which ONE baptism do you think was Paul speaking of in Ephesians 4?

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #96 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 16:15:36 »
Quote
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4)
There are 7 distinct baptisms mentioned in the NT.
Then why does Paul say there's just one?

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #97 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 19:56:03 »
There are 7 distinct baptisms mentioned in the NT.
Then why does Paul say there's just one?

The New Testament speaks of:

7 separate and distinct types of Baptism

https://www.mishkandaviyd.com/7-baptisms/

And here is a link of 14....only those in blue are water baptisms.

1.Noah’s type baptism
Peter mentions that eight people were saved by water in an ark as a type of a future baptism. Water is present, but the people are dry.(Gen 6:13; 1 Peter 3:20-21)

2.Baptism unto Moses
Paul presents Israel’s baptism unto Moses “in the cloud and in the sea”. Water is present, but the people are dry. (1 Cor 10:1-2; Exo 14:29)

3.Israel’s ceremonial cleansings
These cleansing rituals were required under the Mosaic Law for the cleansing of the people. (Num 19:13; Lev 11:25; Exo 19:14; Exo 30:17-21; Heb 9:10)

4.Levitical priesthood baptisms
These washings were required in order to become a priest under the Law of Moses.
(Exo 29:4; Lev 8:6; Num 8:7)


5.Traditional Jewish baptisms
These baptisms were not mandated under the Law but were part of Jewish tradition.
(Mt 15:1-2; Mk 7:1-9; Lk 11:38)


6.John’s baptism
John came to Israel baptizing with water for the remission of sins so that they could enter the promised kingdom to Israel and identify their Messiah. (Mt 3:5-6; Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3; Jn 1:31; Lk 7:29; Acts 10:37)

7.Jesus’ baptism by John
Jesus, who knew no sin, was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness under the law. (Mat 3:13-17; Mk 1:9-10)


8. Baptism with fire
Jesus would baptize the nation with fire as they went through the tribulation. This trial baptism would damn the unfaithful to hell. (Isa 4:4; Mal 3:2-3; Mt 3:11; Lk 3:16)

9.Jesus’ baptism unto death
Jesus’ second baptism which he accomplished at the cross where he was identified with the sins of Israel and the world. (Mt 20:22-23; Mk 10:38-39; Luke 12:50)

 10. Pentecostal water baptism
Peter’s presentation of water baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus. This was John’s baptism plus the name of Jesus.(Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; Mt 28:19; Acts 22:16; Eze 36:25)


11. Pentecostal Spirit baptism
This is the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ from heaven poured out upon the believing remnant of Israel with signs and powers following. (Isa 44:3; Mt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 24:49; Acts 2:17-18, 38; Acts 8:15-17; Acts 11:16)

12. Gentile baptism of Cornelius
Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit as a sign to Peter. Peter subsequently baptizes Cornelius and the other Spirit-filled Gentiles with water in a different order but for the same reason as Pentecost. (Acts 10:45-48)

13. Baptism for the dead
This baptism is debated heavily and is most likely synonymous with one of the other baptisms. If this is true, “for the dead” would signify the circumstance under which those believers were baptized. (1 Cor 15:29)

14.Baptism into Christ
The only baptism taught by Paul which identifies the believer with Christ, his death, and resurrection. This baptism is performed by the Spirit and does not include water.
(1 Cor 12:13; Eph 4:5; Col 2:12; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-4)

https://graceambassadors.com/tradition/list-baptisms-in-the-bible


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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #98 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 20:47:38 »
Is baptism in Christ’s name not baptism INTO Christ? I would say it IS without doubt. To me Romans 6:3-4 is absolutely water baptism. We are buried with Christ (beneath the water) and raised up out of the watery grave, leaving our old self behind and from that point we walk in newness of life. A perfect picture of water baptism in Christ’s name for forgiveness of sin and the indwelling gift of the Spirit empowering us to live in newness of life as we come out of the watery grave a new resurrected life. A perfect picture of what God does in us in, yes water baptism. Also the calling upon God  as Peter describes in 1Peter 3, and in Acts 22 with Paul’s baptism, where he was told to arise and be baptized, his sins were washed away  calling upon the Lord.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 06:58:13 by Jaime »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #99 on: Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 21:12:45 »
DaveW please we are all waiting on your answer to reply 95 and 96.  Inquiring minds want to know the answer.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #100 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 04:45:04 »
So which ONE baptism do you think was Paul speaking of in Ephesians 4?
Water  Baptism, because as new converts to the Christian faith, that is the baptism that puts one into the faith of Christianity! Not to difficult, unless one is out to protect a particular church position. Also, the CONTEXT of the verse itself proves this.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesiand 4:4-6~"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Yesterday at 16:15:36
Then why does Paul say there's just one?
In Ephesians 4 for reasons given above, yet that does not mean there is not more mention in the scriptures for there are, without question. Have you never read so much as these words:
Quote from: HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:1-3~"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."
It will be observed that the word "baptism" is in the plural number, and if scripture is allowed to interpret scripture there will be no difficulty in ascertaining what is here referred to.

Would you like to consider them?
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 04:47:35 by RB »

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #101 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 04:52:41 »
DaveW please we are all waiting on your answer to reply 95 and 96.  Inquiring minds want to know the answer.
Greetings Yogi~I just did above, so the ball is rolling, it is now in DaveW court, or yours, or any other person who may want to agree, disagree, etc.

I'm working on a post now and it may take me a while to gather all my thoughts together and organize them in a manner that cannot be gainsay and all my bases are covered.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #102 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 05:08:31 »
https://graceambassadors.com/tradition/list-baptisms-in-the-bible
Rella, does this teaching of graceambassadors represent your belief; or is this just something you found in a search?

I consider the Mid Acts theology to be grossly in error.  But I will just leave it at that.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ANYONE ?
« Reply #103 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 06:57:06 »
Rella, does this teaching of graceambassadors represent your belief; or is this just something you found in a search?

I consider the Mid Acts theology to be grossly in error.  But I will just leave it at that.

No, not my belief. But having, for sometime now, studied the subject and having seen this I just posted it for the number of baptisms they claim.

I have read many many about the 7 Baptisms.

I just find it so amazing that even this subject can bring out so many differing opinions.

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Re: DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZED ANYONE ?
« Reply #104 on: Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 07:02:50 »
I would say many are mentioned on occasion, but there is only one true baptism. John’s for instance was one of the many and certainly not the ONE TRUE baptism. It was a precursor for lack of a better word, therefore upon the institution of the one true baptism, it effectively became extinct.

 

     
anything