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chosenone
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 08:21:55 AM »
Quote from: Charles Sloan on November 01, 2009, 08:19:27 AM
Quote from: JohnDB on November 01, 2009, 06:34:17 AM
You ought to know by now K-Pappy that some people are simply wicked and evil and want to use God's name to perpetrate their evil...as if that will make them righteous.

We are simply to mark the goat or wolf as to what they are and move on.

I would ease up on surrendersacrifice, I don't think from his post needs to be called evil. (2Th 3:15)


 no not evil but mistaken and judgemental.
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 08:21:55 AM »
 
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Charles Sloan
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 08:23:53 AM »
Quote from: son of God on October 31, 2009, 11:02:09 PM
Scripturally correct, SS.  Except for the reconciliation before an offering.  We don't do offerings.  Repentance is needed.  Reconciliation isn't possible if they've remarried.  Therefore, we have the passage which speaks of the ones who have repented of adultery in the Word when it states, "adulterers.... such were you, but you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified...."

Those who say it isn't sin are incorrect by the Word.  Yet that is debated and negated by many.  
Those who say they must reconcile before God accepts their offerings are incorrect by the Word.  Yet that is also debated and negated by many.

So, to bring this topic up again, after it has been gone over and over and over, I find to be interesting; as few on this forum seem willing to admit that they are ever wrong or to learn on any topic posted, from what I've seen.

Since you agree with surrendersacrifice that divorce is NEVER an option, how do you interpret Jesus' words in Mat 5:32 and 19:9 that divorce is allowed in the event of fornication?
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 08:23:53 AM »
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chosenone
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2009, 08:38:20 AM »
Well of course God hates divorce and after all who likes divorce? However he also hates things like adultery, sexual immorality, serous abuse and all the other things that actually CAUSE the divorce more. Getting divorced isnt actually a sin unless we divorce for reasons not allowed that are selfish.(for example becuase we want to marry another person)
No were does the Bible say that a divorce for sexual immorality, for example. is a sin. It is the sexual sin that is the sin not the divorce.Also what of those who are themselves divorced for no Biblical reason? They have no choice and thus are not guilt of sinning.

The past in the original post about the offering, has absolutely nothing to do with divorce, that is a total twisting of scripture to try to prove a wrong point.
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 09:25:20 AM »
Quote from: chosenone on November 01, 2009, 08:38:20 AM
Well of course God hates divorce and after all who likes divorce? However he also hates things like adultery, sexual immorality, serous abuse and all the other things that actually CAUSE the divorce more. Getting divorced isnt actually a sin unless we divorce for reasons not allowed that are selfish.(for example becuase we want to marry another person)
No were does the Bible say that a divorce for sexual immorality, for example. is a sin. It is the sexual sin that is the sin not the divorce.Also what of those who are themselves divorced for no Biblical reason? They have no choice and thus are not guilt of sinning.

The past in the original post about the offering, has absolutely nothing to do with divorce, that is a total twisting of scripture to try to prove a wrong point.

I do not think divorce is absolutely prohibited, thats obvious. But chose, this line of thinking is what leads people who DO NOT have grounds to think its hunky dory to divorce...its really a bad rationale because its full on relativism. You could take this rationale for anything sinful and say "oh yea thats sin BUT so is this and this"....what does that actually SAY about each individual sin, in Gods eyes?    NOTHING! Its a 100% human idea to say yes thats bad but so is this , the implication being therefore the first thing isnt as bad as we were told it was. Each and every sin is judged on its own, in a vacuum, God isnt standing 2 people next to each other and comparing there sins to mitigate one. I say all this because I belive this manner of thinking, not only in divorce, but as Christians in general, is very bad, even dangerous for our own thinking and decisions. There is but ONE standard for each sin...GODS standard, and it has ZERO to do with the other. Its like the little boy who breaks a vase saying , "yea dad, but Jimmy down the street broke a WINDOW (therefore take it easy on me).

Fact is, most divorces have no Biblical grounds. The moment we begin to accept that is the moment the church can stop doubleminded treatment of it. There is no need to make divorce illegal or change laws in any way. BUT hearts need some work, and rationalizing and splitting hairs aint cuttin it. One cyysical) common rational (seen right here) is to IMMEDIATELY bring up abuse. Realize abuse (physical) is a ground in less than 5% of divorces. So informing our view on divorce using 5% is insane really.

Anyway, Im not sure whats up with the OP. But frankly I prefer that extreme over the one that exists now, which is to take as circuitous a path through the Bible as we need to find a way to justify, essentially, divorce for any reason, by calling anything and everything either abandonement or abuse. Best stay with first principles, and what gives with this urge Christians have to get as close to the line God has drawn on this as possible anyway? Why not err safe side? Its a mess.
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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2009, 09:32:55 AM »
There is an ad here that says "Preserve Marriage". Funny that..
Its of course about gay marriage, which impacts what, less then 10% of the marriage age population?
Sure its wrong.
I followed the link though just HOPING it was about divorce....was I kidding?
Nope, what a JOKE. We refuse to hold a mirror at our 50% divorce rate, while our "pet sins" homosexuality and abortion get all the attention.
As a church, we gots more issues than a newsstand.
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 09:35:08 AM »
Quote from: Charles Sloan on November 01, 2009, 08:23:53 AM
Quote from: son of God on October 31, 2009, 11:02:09 PM
Scripturally correct, SS.  Except for the reconciliation before an offering.  We don't do offerings.  Repentance is needed.  Reconciliation isn't possible if they've remarried.  Therefore, we have the passage which speaks of the ones who have repented of adultery in the Word when it states, "adulterers.... such were you, but you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified...."

Those who say it isn't sin are incorrect by the Word.  Yet that is debated and negated by many.  
Those who say they must reconcile before God accepts their offerings are incorrect by the Word.  Yet that is also debated and negated by many.

So, to bring this topic up again, after it has been gone over and over and over, I find to be interesting; as few on this forum seem willing to admit that they are ever wrong or to learn on any topic posted, from what I've seen.

Since you agree with surrendersacrifice that divorce is NEVER an option, how do you interpret Jesus' words in Mat 5:32 and 19:9 that divorce is allowed in the event of fornication?

From the beginning it was not so, but due to hardness of heart, it is permitted.  Permitted doesn't mean what is desired and "proper" but simply allowed.  Yes, we are to strive for the very, very best, but often we fall so, so short of that.  Nevertheless, that doesn't allow us to just carte blanc write off the ideal though, does it?  As the Word states elsewhere, as much as is personally possible, just get along with others, putting up with them and their stuff.  Some can't put up with much, and others can.  We are to grow to be like Christ, I think, and come to the point where we can put up with being wrongly accused and slandered and maligned and even physcially harmed, (He to the point of death, which He knew beforehand was His calling).  We are not to condemn those who don't put up with stuff to the extent that we personally might, nor are we to acquiesce and state that it's ok, just fine, to put up will little.  We are not the judge, but we are to discern the hearts and intents therefore by what we see and hear.  I fear that all too often that is misconstrued also.  None of us are exempt in this, for we all fail in this, I no less than others, it seems.

We are to speak the truth, in love for Him and others.  Sometimes it is an unpleasant truth.  Sometimes we are mistaken in our understanding and foolish in our zeal for Him.  I'd much rather see that, than to see nothing said or done.  Let us remember these things, and not be harsh on those we deem to be foolish or ignorant, no matter which side of the court they are on on the divorce/remarriage topic, or any other topic.  To condemn one as judgmental and believing Satan and following his stuff, is a harsh statement indeed.  Do we all have complete, correct understanding on all things in the Word?  Or are we human and finite?  If the latter, perhaps grace must be shown.  This brings us to another thread of recent start, which speaks of the Word that states we are to hold our wisdom and understanding, not giving it all the time.  This is called prudence.  Perhaps meekness in holding our tongue, even when we think we have insight to give and are completely correct on it, would be the better part of wisdom on certain threads.

To condemn so severely the initial poster on this thread, as some have done, is to do that very thing that they themselves are condemning.  Interesting.  "my brethren, these things ought not be"
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 09:35:08 AM »
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 09:38:48 AM »
Quote from: BAH-BLAH on November 01, 2009, 09:25:20 AM
Quote from: chosenone on November 01, 2009, 08:38:20 AM
Well of course God hates divorce and after all who likes divorce? However he also hates things like adultery, sexual immorality, serous abuse and all the other things that actually CAUSE the divorce more. Getting divorced isnt actually a sin unless we divorce for reasons not allowed that are selfish.(for example becuase we want to marry another person)
No were does the Bible say that a divorce for sexual immorality, for example. is a sin. It is the sexual sin that is the sin not the divorce.Also what of those who are themselves divorced for no Biblical reason? They have no choice and thus are not guilt of sinning.

The past in the original post about the offering, has absolutely nothing to do with divorce, that is a total twisting of scripture to try to prove a wrong point.

I do not think divorce is absolutely prohibited, thats obvious. But chose, this line of thinking is what leads people who DO NOT have grounds to think its hunky dory to divorce...its really a bad rationale because its full on relativism. You could take this rationale for anything sinful and say "oh yea thats sin BUT so is this and this"....what does that actually SAY about each individual sin, in Gods eyes?    NOTHING! Its a 100% human idea to say yes thats bad but so is this , the implication being therefore the first thing isnt as bad as we were told it was. Each and every sin is judged on its own, in a vacuum, God isnt standing 2 people next to each other and comparing there sins to mitigate one. I say all this because I belive this manner of thinking, not only in divorce, but as Christians in general, is very bad, even dangerous for our own thinking and decisions. There is but ONE standard for each sin...GODS standard, and it has ZERO to do with the other. Its like the little boy who breaks a vase saying , "yea dad, but Jimmy down the street broke a WINDOW (therefore take it easy on me).

Fact is, most divorces have no Biblical grounds. The moment we begin to accept that is the moment the church can stop doubleminded treatment of it. There is no need to make divorce illegal or change laws in any way. BUT hearts need some work, and rationalizing and splitting hairs aint cuttin it. One cyysical) common rational (seen right here) is to IMMEDIATELY bring up abuse. Realize abuse (physical) is a ground in less than 5% of divorces. So informing our view on divorce using 5% is insane really.

Anyway, Im not sure whats up with the OP. But frankly I prefer that extreme over the one that exists now, which is to take as circuitous a path through the Bible as we need to find a way to justify, essentially, divorce for any reason, by calling anything and everything either abandonement or abuse. Best stay with first principles, and what gives with this urge Christians have to get as close to the line God has drawn on this as possible anyway? Why not err safe side? Its a mess.


I agree with you, BB.  Good observations.  Good applications.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2009, 10:01:59 AM »


The Vatican revamped the rules for Catholic Divorce during 2005.  Surprisingly, the rules were tightened rather than follow the modern trend. For Catholics who want to remarry, annulment is their only hope of being able to do so in the church, which forbids divorce. The only loop hole on the communion ban for such couples is if they abstain from sex with their new spouses. I am pretty sure the Protestants and Catholics agree that a man shouldn't dump his wife for a younger woman, and a woman shouldn't dump her husband for a guy with a better job.  I have been married twice without being divorced.  I out lived the contract with my first wife, and being widowed I married a woman young enough to be my daughter.  I have noticed that both of my wives complain about my same faults, so I would say to stick it out in your present marriage.  What ever faults that you have will follow you and ruin your next marriage. Living with a woman has always been a pain, so the next one will be the same.
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 11:04:08 AM »
Quote from: BAH-BLAH on November 01, 2009, 09:25:20 AM
Quote from: chosenone on November 01, 2009, 08:38:20 AM
Well of course God hates divorce and after all who likes divorce? However he also hates things like adultery, sexual immorality, serous abuse and all the other things that actually CAUSE the divorce more. Getting divorced isnt actually a sin unless we divorce for reasons not allowed that are selfish.(for example becuase we want to marry another person)
No were does the Bible say that a divorce for sexual immorality, for example. is a sin. It is the sexual sin that is the sin not the divorce.Also what of those who are themselves divorced for no Biblical reason? They have no choice and thus are not guilt of sinning.

The past in the original post about the offering, has absolutely nothing to do with divorce, that is a total twisting of scripture to try to prove a wrong point.

I do not think divorce is absolutely prohibited, thats obvious. But chose, this line of thinking is what leads people who DO NOT have grounds to think its hunky dory to divorce...its really a bad rationale because its full on relativism. You could take this rationale for anything sinful and say "oh yea thats sin BUT so is this and this"....what does that actually SAY about each individual sin, in Gods eyes?    NOTHING! Its a 100% human idea to say yes thats bad but so is this , the implication being therefore the first thing isnt as bad as we were told it was. Each and every sin is judged on its own, in a vacuum, God isnt standing 2 people next to each other and comparing there sins to mitigate one. I say all this because I belive this manner of thinking, not only in divorce, but as Christians in general, is very bad, even dangerous for our own thinking and decisions. There is but ONE standard for each sin...GODS standard, and it has ZERO to do with the other. Its like the little boy who breaks a vase saying , "yea dad, but Jimmy down the street broke a WINDOW (therefore take it easy on me).

Fact is, most divorces have no Biblical grounds. The moment we begin to accept that is the moment the church can stop doubleminded treatment of it. There is no need to make divorce illegal or change laws in any way. BUT hearts need some work, and rationalizing and splitting hairs aint cuttin it. One cyysical) common rational (seen right here) is to IMMEDIATELY bring up abuse. Realize abuse (physical) is a ground in less than 5% of divorces. So informing our view on divorce using 5% is insane really.

Anyway, Im not sure whats up with the OP. But frankly I prefer that extreme over the one that exists now, which is to take as circuitous a path through the Bible as we need to find a way to justify, essentially, divorce for any reason, by calling anything and everything either abandonement or abuse. Best stay with first principles, and what gives with this urge Christians have to get as close to the line God has drawn on this as possible anyway? Why not err safe side? Its a mess.



  I never meant that divorce for selfish reaons is allowed.(actually I said that is is wrong), but if a person has cheated for example then their spouse is allowed to divorce. I agree that many do divorce for no good reason but that is between them and God. 
Both my divorce and my husbands divorce were for sexual immorlality on our spouses part. I divorced my husband as what he did was so serious that in no way could I ever have him back, and my husbands wife divorced him to marry the other man (which she never did by the way).
Divorce for 'boredom' or becuase they have fallen 'out of love' or because their 'needs; werent being met is not godly or right. I have heard peope divorce for these reasons. and it is 100% wrong, but that is a far cry from those who have been betrayed in the worse way possible. For THEM it isn a sin to divorce, The sin was in the betrayal which broke the covenant.   
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 11:04:08 AM »
 
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 04:31:32 PM »

This is my response, the letter killeth but the Spirit gives life.    Divorce is not good but writer be aware that there are many genuine reasons why people do it.

It is not Gods best but sometimes it is the only option to continue to live a life worthy of honour to Him.

Yes Gods best is to pick your mate right with His guidance from the start, if you choose wrongly, it can be hard to fix because the foundation is wrong.
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 04:31:32 PM »
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Debbie_55
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2009, 04:59:40 PM »
As one who has been divorced twice and abused twice I do not think God wanted me to die by the hand of my husband. Praise the Lord I now have a Godly man that is my true gift from God and this will be my third and last marriage. Yes, women can be as abusive as a man can so it goes both ways in scripture even though it always says the man.

Genesis 2:23-25 explains the bond of marriage. The two are united as one in the eyes of God. Ephesians 5:22-29 wives are to submit to their husbands as unto the Lord for the husband is the spiritual head of the wife. Man is the provider and protector of his family. Husbands, you are to love your wives like Christ loves his church. This is an unconditional love that looks on the inside of a person and not the adorning of the outside. It is a love with a pure heart.

This submission also carries over to the bed that neither should deprive one another unless it is a mutual consent, 1 Corinthians 7:5 the principles for the married believer are explained in 1 Corinthians 7:10-16. As long as there is love and faithfulness the two should never depart from each other nor stray away for lust of the flesh.

Does God permit divorce; no he does not for what God has joined together as one flesh let no man separate it, Matthew 19:6. God joined man and woman together before sin entered into the hearts of man and woman, Genesis 2:18. When woman was deceived by the serpent in Genesis 3:1-13 and gave the man to eat of the fruit, man forgot what God told them not to do and they both tried to hide from God, but God knew what they had done and now was sin entered into the hearts of man and woman.

1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus commands the woman not to leave her husband and if she does she should remain unmarried, but in Malachi 2:10-16 the treachery that man commits against a woman which leads him to have an affair outside of the marriage or abuses the wife whether it be physical or emotional gives place to what was said by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 that if a woman is no longer pleasing to her husband then the husband should give his wife a written bill of divorcement and send her out of the house and this gives the woman the right to marry again, but she can never go back to her former husband if that marriage does not work out or her husband dies for now she is defiled to be with her first husband and this is an abomination to God.

For a good marriage to work one should study 2 Corinthians 6:14 be ye not unequally yoked together with non-believers for what fellowship hath righteous with unrighteous, and what communion has light with darkness. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ then you need to choose a mate that also believes in the faith of Christ. In some marriages people do not enter into a relationship with Christ being the center of it, but maybe one of them come to know the Lord and the other one refuses to have that personal relationship with Christ then we go back to what 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 says. If the unbelieving partner leaves the believing partner then this frees the believing partner from the bondage of the vows of marriage and they are free to marry again.
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2009, 05:05:43 PM »
I also need to add at the time of my other two marriages I was a Christian and so was my last husband, but he chose drugs and alcohol over God and when I finally divorced him I even paid for the divorce and left him everything as I moved from that state to where I am now before he had the chance to kill me. I always felt like I was going to hell because God did not allow divorce, but I could not believe God would want me to stay in such an abusive relationship where I was a literal prisoner in my own home and was beaten everyday I was there. No phone, no friends, no money no car. Do you really feel I should have stayed with that!!!! and this is why I did an in depth study in His word to see what he said and not what man has interpreted it to say.
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2009, 06:14:48 PM »



     Good for you Debbie.  GOD is blessing you.  Thank you JESUS,Amen.
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2009, 06:14:48 PM »
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2009, 08:18:32 PM »
In the same manner that Homosexual Christians really are not Christians...neither are judgemental and finger pointing Christians really Christians either...

There is no difference...the Bible says so and I believe it. It says that those who do these things are rejects of the faith...sorry but just because someone can quote the Law doesn't make them a Christian.

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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2009, 10:29:03 PM »
Quote from: surrendersacrifice on October 31, 2009, 07:56:45 PM
To be a Christian is to follow Christ. To follow Him we must love Him.  To love Him is to surrender our life to Him. To surrender our life to Him is to live a life that is His, and not ours.   This means that we do and think what He does and thinks. We know that God is always faithful to us although we have been unfaithful to Him, and rejected Him by our sins.  Furthermore, He sacrificed His own life so that we may be free of sin and have His life. To be a Christian, therefore, is to do likewise. In addition, since it is God who seals the marriage covenant no one can separate what God has joined together (Matt 19:6); and those who attempt to break this seal go against God. Divorce is therefore, absolutely prohibited for believers (Mk 10:11-12, Luke 16:18; Matthew 5: 31-32); and remarriage after divorce is adultery.  Furthermore, a person whose spouse is unfaithful to him/her must stay faithful to his/her spouse just as God is faithful to us even when we reject Him (Hosea 3:1).

    God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16) and is not pleased with the offerings of those who divorce their spouse (Malachi 2: 13-14). Jesus tells us that before making offering to God, we must reconcile with those with whom we have grievances (Matt. 5: 23-24).  Therefore, a divorced person must first reconcile with his/her spouse before making an offering to the Lord.





Quote from: avenger on October 31, 2009, 09:25:25 PM


Really?  I don't know, what do you think?

its better know it all  Smile

"'I hate divorce,' says the Lord God of Israel, 'and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,' says the Lord Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith." (Malachi 2:16, NIV)


"But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace." (1 Corinthians 7:15, NIV)
 


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« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 10:37:23 PM by ex cathedra » Logged
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for One must bear real and true sins to be saved. God does not save imaginary sinner's. So let your sins be strong but your faith in Jesus ,his blood bought forgiveness for your sin's ---be stronger still.
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