Author Topic: Do toddlers sin?  (Read 4246 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #245 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 20:42:12 »
4WD,
I agree. Irrational. Romans 5:12 says because all men sinned.
There is no verse in the Bible that says Adam's sin was inherited.

ERM

Romans 5:12 states
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

In your opinion, what does "sin entered into the world" mean?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #245 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 20:42:12 »

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #246 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 22:56:16 »
AVZ,
Sin entered the world because Adam sinned.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #247 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 23:15:30 »
AVZ,
Sin entered the world because Adam sinned.

Yes, Adam committed a personal sin, and because of that "sin entered the world"
What does that mean?

Does it mean that everything now became sinful?
Does it mean that prior sin had no access, but now it had?
Does it mean that where first was the opportunity to sin, now there was the certainty of sin?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #247 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 23:15:30 »

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #248 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 23:55:26 »
AVZ,
It means that the world was absent of sin, but Adam had voluntarily committed sin and henceforth carried it around like a stain, almost like the mark on Cain's forehead. And anyone else who sinned, got similarly stained. The only difference between them and Adam, is that Adam was the first.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #248 on: Mon Nov 19, 2018 - 23:55:26 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #249 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 01:49:11 »
AVZ,
It means that the world was absent of sin, but Adam had voluntarily committed sin and henceforth carried it around like a stain, almost like the mark on Cain's forehead. And anyone else who sinned, got similarly stained. The only difference between them and Adam, is that Adam was the first.

So sin entering the world is something personal?
In other words, Adam sinned and brought sin into the world...but it was attached to him personally.
It is his personal stain. Everybody else who sins receives his or her personal stain?

But how then shall we deal with verse 18 & 19?
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."


How can Adam's sin, his personal stain, be the cause of judgement on all man to condemnation, and how can it be that by Adam's personal stain other people were made sinners?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #249 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 01:49:11 »



Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10644
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #250 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 05:56:28 »
So sin entering the world is something personal?
In other words, Adam sinned and brought sin into the world...but it was attached to him personally.
It is his personal stain. Everybody else who sins receives his or her personal stain?

But how then shall we deal with verse 18 & 19?
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."


How can Adam's sin, his personal stain, be the cause of judgement on all man to condemnation, and how can it be that by Adam's personal stain other people were made sinners?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #250 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 05:56:28 »

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #251 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 09:27:21 »
4WD,
Good point. Jesus's obedience bestowed righteousness upon many only in a sense. There was still there our part to fulfill, although it was a much smaller part. They can never be righteous on their own no matter what or how much they did, but they did need to respond now that Jesus provided the opportunity. If Adam's sin fell upon all men, it would have also fallen on Jesus and that didn't happen. Jesus made a new way because he managed to live without sinning, consequently he could be the sacrifice.

AVZ,
Somehow somehow Adam opened up the way for the rest of us to sin. But it's still our choice.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 10:46:53 by e.r.m. »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10644
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #252 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 10:03:32 »
4WD,
Good point. Jesus's obedience bestowed righteousness upon many only in a sense. There was still there parking fulfill, although it was a much smaller part. They can never be righteous on their own no matter what or how much they did, but they did need to respond now that Jesus provided the opportunity. If Adam's sin fell upon all men, it would have also fallen on Jesus and that didn't happen. Jesus made a new way because he managed to live without sinning, consequently he could be the sacrifice.
If you read what it actually says in Romans 5:18-19 it says that the effect of Jesus' obedience was to completely undo or negate the effect of Adam's disobedience.  Note also it is not speaking about our disobedience, only Adam's.  Any concept of original sin imputed upon mankind due to Adam's sin was abolished.

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #253 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 11:26:10 »
4WD,
The concept of original sin imputed upon mankind due to Adam's sin didn't exist. It didn't need to be abolished.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #253 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 11:26:10 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #254 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 11:40:41 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 11:12:26
And exactly yet again. There is no verse in the Bible that says that Adam's sin was inherited, for so it was not. In Adam, all were condemned. Condemned to death as well, for they, in Adam, sinned. So, as scriptures have it,  in Adam, all die.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
If, as you believe, this death in 1 Cor 15:21-22 is condemnation due to sin, then this being made alive is the reversal of this condemnation. It applies to all men; all men will experience the undoing of this condemnation.

Do you believe this?

Scriptures clearly states that the penalty of sin is death. It does not say physical nor spiritual death. When one changes "death" to "spiritual death", it effectively makes the truth into a lie. One would have their explanation as to why the change, but that simply does not take away the fact that the truth was made to be a lie.

At this point, I'd like to ask you, what is death? Is it something good or is evil? Is it a a suffering or is not? Is it a punishment or not? Is it a state of existence or what?     

Moving on, God did not create man to suffer death. In fact, God created man in His own image, to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. He gave them food and sustains them. He even gave them the tree of life and eat freely of it. Clearly, what God intended for man is to live forever, though in the state and condition man was created, that is, not wicked, not unclean, and without sin. He wanted for them to have life, eternal life and in fellowship with Him, and be His children.

You speak of a reversal of condemnation. I see nothing of that at all. Condemnation was made, so that all were condemned. What there is in Christ is salvation from their already condemned state or condition.

Now, regarding the resurrection. I'm sure you won't be able to get what I will be  saying here until we come to the same understanding of what life is. This is why, some time ago I started a topic regarding what death is, after which I would have proceeded to start a topic regarding what life is. For there is much difference in our understanding about the two. But apparently, the topic did not get much interest from this forum.

Let me just proceed anyway.

While it is true that all men will be resurrected, such resurrection does not mean all will have life. For this is what is said regarding the resurrection of the dead ~ Some will be resurrected to be cast into the lake of fire and be there for eternity, to suffer death, the second death that scriptures call. Others will be resurrected unto eternal life and be with God for eternity. As you can see, being resurrected as to have the breathe of life again does not mean having life or that the condemnation is undone or reversed.

Now, let's go back to the scriptures under consideration.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

I'd like to know your take on this.

In verse 21, what do you understand by "since by man came death"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "as in Adam all die"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "even so in Christ all shall be made alive"?

And finally verse 23, what is it telling you? 

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #255 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 11:46:17 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 10:48:04
How about your opinion concerning this? Or you don't have even an opinion regading this that you skipped it altogether?

Now, how about the infants and toddlers, whom you say are sinless and innocent? The natural man, with his wisdom, find justice and righteousness in the killing of the wicked, and injustice and unrighteousness in the killing of the sinless and innocent. Why were they killed? Now it is God who killed them. And God is righteous and just in all His ways. How then would that be with the infants and toddlers?
Someday, though probably not anytime soon, you are going to come to grips with the idea that physical death and spiritual death is not at all related.  Physical death is not God's punishment for sin.  It can be the result of sin but is not the punishment for sin.  Paul's statement that the wages of sin is death is strictly about spiritual death or the more permanent second death for the unbeliever.

I get it. You don't have any answer. That's it then.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10644
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #256 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 12:28:22 »
4WD,
The concept of original sin imputed upon mankind due to Adam's sin didn't exist. It didn't need to be abolished.

I agree.  But perhaps the problem was that many Jews seemed to think it did.  Witness, Jesus' disciples' question in John 9:2.  Or even God's recrimination against Israel in Ezekiel, Chapter 18.  What Paul is essentially saying here is that it doesn't matter what you think the effect of Adam's sin might have been on mankind, it isn't.  And that is because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.  And that of course as we know was retroactive back to the very beginning.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10644
  • Manna: 305
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #257 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 12:33:55 »
Someday, though probably not anytime soon, you are going to come to grips with the idea that physical death and spiritual death is not at all related.  Physical death is not God's punishment for sin.  It can be the result of sin but is not the punishment for sin.  Paul's statement that the wages of sin is death is strictly about spiritual death or the more permanent second death for the unbeliever.


I get it. You don't have any answer. That's it then.
No, Michael,  you do not get it.  That is the problem here.  And that is the problem generally with just about every conversation you enter into here.  You compose page after page and it is almost all just words on a page.  There is no real knowledge to be found in any of it.

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #258 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 14:19:24 »
Michael2012,
Wasn't Adam's physical death a direct consequence of his sin?
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 14:21:37 by e.r.m. »

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #259 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 17:47:33 »
If Adam's sin fell upon all men, it would have also fallen on Jesus and that didn't happen.

Remember Jesus was born from the Holy Spirit and Mary. That's quite different from the rest of humanity.


Somehow somehow Adam opened up the way for the rest of us to sin. But it's still our choice.

Well, its exactly that "somehow" that I would like to have clarified.
Because if Adam's sin "somehow opens the door for people to sin"...then how did Adam sin in the first place if that door wasn't opened yet?

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5220
  • Manna: 252
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #260 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 19:09:28 »
Quote
If, as you believe, this death in 1 Cor 15:21-22 is condemnation due to sin, then this being made alive is the reversal of this condemnation. It applies to all men; all men will experience the undoing of this condemnation.

Do you believe this?


You speak of a reversal of condemnation. I see nothing of that at all. Condemnation was made, so that all were condemned. What there is in Christ is salvation from their already condemned state or condition.

You see nothing about a reversal of condemnation at all, but instead what you see is salvation from condemnation in Christ...which is condemnation being reversed. ::smile::

In other words, you just made an oxymoron. It is necessarily an oxymoron because the death and the life are two sides of the same coin; whatever form of death is being spoken of, and however it is manifested, so is the life that comes by Christ. If you want the death here to be condemnation due to sin, then the life is the opposite of that, a reversal or undoing of that condemnation.

Quote
Now, regarding the resurrection. I'm sure you won't be able to get what I will be  saying here until we come to the same understanding of what life is. This is why, some time ago I started a topic regarding what death is, after which I would have proceeded to start a topic regarding what life is. For there is much difference in our understanding about the two. But apparently, the topic did not get much interest from this forum.

Let me just proceed anyway.

While it is true that all men will be resurrected, such resurrection does not mean all will have life.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Well, it seems you want to have a double standard here. You want death in this context to be whatever and any and all death that men will experience due to sin, including spiritual, but you want the life to be physical only, in the form of the resurrection.

Sorry, but that cannot be done legitimately. Again, both death and life in this context are two sides of the same coin. If the life is only the resurrection, then the death is only physical. If you want the death to be the wages of sin, which has to include spiritual death, then the life has to include the spiritual as well.

In the passage, Christ undoes the death. I believe both the death and the life in this context are strictly physical. Death is not spoken of as any kind of condemnation or punishment to all men because of sin. The language here being used is very different from Romans 5 which actually does deal with man's spiritual condition due both to mankind's sinfulness and Jesus' sacrifice.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #261 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 19:38:57 »
If, as you believe, this death in 1 Cor 15:21-22 is condemnation due to sin, then this being made alive is the reversal of this condemnation. It applies to all men; all men will experience the undoing of this condemnation.

Do you believe this?

The text says "in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive"

Now everybody is IN Adam because we are all human.
But not everybody is IN Christ.

Scripture refers to all men as dead.
Scripture also refers to all believers as living. Unbelievers, even though they are physically alive, are considered dead.
So there is a resurrection of all men, in which all men will be alive...but those who are not IN Christ will be alive yet dead.

The keyword in this passage is the word "in".
All who are IN Adam die: true, everybody is in Adam hence everybody dies both physically and spiritually.
All who are IN Christ live: true, all believers in Christ will be made alive both physically and spiritually.

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5220
  • Manna: 252
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #262 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 20:03:49 »
The text says "in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive"

Now everybody is IN Adam because we are all human.
But not everybody is IN Christ.

Scripture refers to all men as dead.
Scripture also refers to all believers as living. Unbelievers, even though they are physically alive, are considered dead.
So there is a resurrection of all men, in which all men will be alive...but those who are not IN Christ will be alive yet dead.

The keyword in this passage is the word "in".
All who are IN Adam die: true, everybody is in Adam hence everybody dies both physically and spiritually.
All who are IN Christ live: true, all believers in Christ will be made alive both physically and spiritually.

I'll just refer you to my post above yours, with the additional info that all means all. Inasmuch as all die in Adam, then the same all are made alive in Christ.

That is why the death and the life are strictly physical in this particular context. All experience physical death and all will be resurrected in the end.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #263 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 22:27:32 »
soterion,

Since you commented on my Reply#254, perhaps you can take on the last part which you left out. For easy reference, I'm posting that part here below:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

I'd like to know your take on this.

In verse 21, what do you understand by "since by man came death"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "as in Adam all die"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "even so in Christ all shall be made alive"?

And finally verse 23, what is it telling you?

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #264 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 22:54:11 »
Inasmuch as all die in Adam, then the same all are made alive in Christ.

It doesn't matter how you read the verse or where you place the emphasis.
The crux is that all are made alive in Christ.
You may as well say "In Christ all are made alive", or "In Adam there is death" and "In Christ there is life".
But there are a whole lot of people who are not in Christ and who do not want to be in Christ.

Its not a very complicated concept grammatically.
If you say that all are refreshed by drinking the water, it is not difficult to understand that those who do not go to the water, or those who do not want to drink the water, are also not refreshed.
It would in fact be illogical to expect those who don't want the water would be refreshed anyway.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #265 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 23:04:01 »
Michael2012,
Wasn't Adam's physical death a direct consequence of his sin?

Death is the consequence of the fall of Adam into sin.

He was taken out of communion with God and was not allowed access to the tree of life.

Death affects the man, his whole being, that is, spiritually and physically.

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #266 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 23:12:26 »
Michael2012,
His sin took him away from being able to eat from the Tree of Life. I don't know that it took him away from being able to commune God. It seems to me that Abel and Seth we're able to commune God. And God never said that was part of his punishment.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 23:31:10 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

  • Church of Christ
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6688
  • Manna: 73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #267 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 23:28:22 »
Or you may be right.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #268 on: Tue Nov 20, 2018 - 23:37:11 »
Michael2012,
His sin took him away from being able to eat from the Tree of Life. I don't know that it took him away from being able to commune God. It seems to me that Abel and Seth we're able to commune God. And God never said that was part of his punishment.

Regarding communion with God, I refer to such as that which Adam had with God before his fall.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #269 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 00:33:51 »
Michael2012,
His sin took him away from being able to eat from the Tree of Life. I don't know that it took him away from being able to commune God. It seems to me that Abel and Seth we're able to commune God. And God never said that was part of his punishment.

I wouldn't necessarily say "commune" with God.
Even Cain seems to have had a conversation with Him.

I would say it is a matter of being "in community" with God.
Genesis somewhat indicates that there was personal interaction between God and man.
In an earlier post i referred to it as "being in the presence of God".
By sending Adam and Eve out of the Garden, they were removed from God's immediate presence.

See, God is a God of life.
You cannot be in the presence of God and die. The Tree of Life had little to do with life in Adam.
Being in God's presence would have sustained his life anyway.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #270 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 02:03:16 »
I wouldn't necessarily say "commune" with God.
Even Cain seems to have had a conversation with Him.

I would say it is a matter of being "in community" with God.
Genesis somewhat indicates that there was personal interaction between God and man.
In an earlier post i referred to it as "being in the presence of God".
By sending Adam and Eve out of the Garden, they were removed from God's immediate presence.

See, God is a God of life.
You cannot be in the presence of God and die. The Tree of Life had little to do with life in Adam.
Being in God's presence would have sustained his life anyway.

By the way, this is the sense with which I meant by communion.

communion noun
com·​mu·​nion | \kə-ˈmyü-nyən  \
Definition of communion
1 : an act or instance of sharing
2a capitalized : a Christian sacrament in which consecrated bread and wine are consumed as memorials of Christ's death or as symbols for the realization of a spiritual union between Christ and communicant or as the body and blood of Christ
b : the act of receiving Communion
c capitalized : the part of a Communion service in which the sacrament is received
3 : intimate fellowship or rapport : COMMUNICATION
sat alone on the mountain, in communion with the wilderness
4 : a body of Christians having a common faith and discipline
the Anglican communion

rapport noun
rap·​port | \ra-ˈpȯr,  rə-\
Definition of rapport
: a friendly, harmonious relationship
especially : a relationship characterized by agreement, mutual understanding, or empathy that makes communication possible or easy

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5220
  • Manna: 252
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #271 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 06:30:37 »
soterion,

Since you commented on my Reply#254, perhaps you can take on the last part which you left out. For easy reference, I'm posting that part here below:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

I'd like to know your take on this.

In verse 21, what do you understand by "since by man came death"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "as in Adam all die"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "even so in Christ all shall be made alive"?

And finally verse 23, what is it telling you?

Since I already posted what I believe about these passages over and over again to you, then I already answered those questions.

Why this constant requirement from you to others to have to keep posting the same stuff to you over and over? If you would just read what people are posting, you can find what they are saying in regard to your questions. For example, you asked, "In verse 22, what do you understand by "even so in Christ all shall be made alive"?" The answer should be so obvious, if you would just read what I posted.

Again, you make, at least me, feel like it is a waste of time to post because you are not actually reading and trying to grasp what is being said to you.

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5220
  • Manna: 252
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #272 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 06:36:38 »
It doesn't matter how you read the verse or where you place the emphasis.

It doesn't matter? ???

That is why you can't understand this scripture. "In Christ" doesn't mean "only the saved" here. I take it to mean "through Christ" or "by means of Christ." The resurrection of all in the end, prior to the judgment of all mankind, is by means of Christ.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #273 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 07:37:13 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 22:27:32
soterion,

Since you commented on my Reply#254, perhaps you can take on the last part which you left out. For easy reference, I'm posting that part here below:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

I'd like to know your take on this.

In verse 21, what do you understand by "since by man came death"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "as in Adam all die"?
In verse 22, what do you understand by "even so in Christ all shall be made alive"?

And finally verse 23, what is it telling you?
Since I already posted what I believe about these passages over and over again to you, then I already answered those questions.

Why this constant requirement from you to others to have to keep posting the same stuff to you over and over? If you would just read what people are posting, you can find what they are saying in regard to your questions. For example, you asked, "In verse 22, what do you understand by "even so in Christ all shall be made alive"?" The answer should be so obvious, if you would just read what I posted.

Again, you make, at least me, feel like it is a waste of time to post because you are not actually reading and trying to grasp what is being said to you.

It's because I mostly don't get to read somebody else's post in reply to others. So, if you have answered those already, but not in reply to my post, I wouldn't know. Would you expect me to go through all your posts before I can actually ask you anything?

Besides, I'm not only posting just so I get into a recorded public conversation. If you'll notice, I make every effort to do an orderly post, with the quotes and all. This is so that people who reads this thread can get a good and clear picture of the discussion and perhaps they can learn a thing or two truths out of it. It's really for people out there.

Further, I don't see anything wrong repeating something, if it's the truth, when it's requested and called upon. Every opportunity must be taken to write about the truth so that it can reach many people and perhaps can change their mind, and come to repentance towards the truth and towards God.

If you are not up to that, well perhaps, as you have done before, you can just include the links that leads to those post.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #274 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 10:14:51 »
I take it to mean "through Christ" or "by means of Christ."

But it does't say "through Christ" or "by means of Christ". It says "in Christ".
Similarly "in Adam" doesn't mean "through Adam" or "by means of Adam".

It has exactly the same meaning as "in Christ there is no condemnation".

There is one resurrection, but there will be two kinds of people.
Those who are in Adam and those who are in Christ. One is resurrected to condemnation and the other to glorification.
If there would be one person who is in Adam then it would be Adam himself, but even Adam himself is resurrected in Christ.

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5220
  • Manna: 252
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #275 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 13:10:00 »
But it does't say "through Christ" or "by means of Christ". It says "in Christ".
Similarly "in Adam" doesn't mean "through Adam" or "by means of Adam".

It has exactly the same meaning as "in Christ there is no condemnation".

There is one resurrection, but there will be two kinds of people.
Those who are in Adam and those who are in Christ. One is resurrected to condemnation and the other to glorification.
If there would be one person who is in Adam then it would be Adam himself, but even Adam himself is resurrected in Christ.

Actually, I take "in Adam" in this context as meaning "through Adam or "by means of Adam."

I do this because the previous verse says it, and I quote:

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

The basic message here is that by means of Adam all die physically and by means of Christ all will be resurrected from the dead.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #276 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 14:51:45 »
Actually, I take "in Adam" in this context as meaning "through Adam or "by means of Adam."

I do this because the previous verse says it, and I quote:

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

The basic message here is that by means of Adam all die physically and by means of Christ all will be resurrected from the dead.

But that is reading into the verse what it does not say.

The first quoted verse tells us that since death came by or through man, Adam in this case, the resurrection of the dead also came by or through man, Jesus Christ.

The second quoted verse tells us not of the same thing, but about what results out of that or what becomes of that. Paul tells us that because of that, in Adam all die. That is, those who are in Adam, they all shall die. And as in the same sense as was in the first verse, all then who are in Christ, they all shall be made alive.

Now who are those who are in Adam?

The first man, that is Adam, was of the earth, made of dust.
All then who are of the earth, made of dust, and were created in Adam, they are those who are in Adam. That would be all of mankind.

Who are those who are in Christ?
Needless to say, they are not all of mankind. They are only those who were dead in Adam, and are born again, created in Christ Jesus.





Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5220
  • Manna: 252
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #277 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 20:23:41 »
1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


The second verse is saying the same thing as the first verse; it's just a rewording of it. The death is referring to physical death and the making alive is referring to the resurrection of the dead. All people are going to experience this, with the exception of those who are still alive at Christ's coming. The life that is to be given by Christ here is simply the raising of dead bodies, not spiritual life.

It does not say that "all in Adam die" and that "all in Christ shall be made alive." The "all" are not being qualified as to their position. The passage says "in Adam all..." and "in Christ all..." The difference between the two wordings is huge. Again, it's not "all in Adam", but rather "in Adam all." Likewise, it's not "all in Christ," but rather "in Christ all." The word "in" here is not about the relationship to Adam or to Christ, but is about the ones through whom the death and the making alive take place.

Also, the "all" is the same people in both parts. The wording does not warrant making the "all" two different groups of people, such as making the "in Adam all" refer to all people and the "in Christ all" refer to only the saved. If it is desired that the "all" who are to made alive in Christ refers only to the saved, then that same distinction should be made in reference to those who die in Adam; in both cases it should refer only to the saved. If it is desired that the "all" refers to all people, then it means all people die in Adam and then will be raised from that death in Christ.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Do toddlers sin?
« Reply #278 on: Wed Nov 21, 2018 - 21:28:11 »
1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


The second verse is saying the same thing as the first verse; it's just a rewording of it. The death is referring to physical death and the making alive is referring to the resurrection of the dead. All people are going to experience this, with the exception of those who are still alive at Christ's coming. The life that is to be given by Christ here is simply the raising of dead bodies, not spiritual life.

It does not say that "all in Adam die" and that "all in Christ shall be made alive." The "all" are not being qualified as to their position. The passage says "in Adam all..." and "in Christ all..." The difference between the two wordings is huge. Again, it's not "all in Adam", but rather "in Adam all." Likewise, it's not "all in Christ," but rather "in Christ all." The word "in" here is not about the relationship to Adam or to Christ, but is about the ones through whom the death and the making alive take place.

Also, the "all" is the same people in both parts. The wording does not warrant making the "all" two different groups of people, such as making the "in Adam all" refer to all people and the "in Christ all" refer to only the saved. If it is desired that the "all" who are to made alive in Christ refers only to the saved, then that same distinction should be made in reference to those who die in Adam; in both cases it should refer only to the saved. If it is desired that the "all" refers to all people, then it means all people die in Adam and then will be raised from that death in Christ.

No, the second verse is not trying to make the same statement as the first verse.
In fact it addresses a complete different issue.

The purpose of Pauls epistle in 1 Corinthians is to make an allegorical antithesis.
The allegory is Christ vs Adam, but it is not a comparison if similarities...but a comparison of differences.
Core issue is the question how the deed of one man can affect many.

The term "by Christ" refers to what Christ did, and the term "in Christ" describes what is the result of that deed.

"For since by the action of Adam came death, by the action of Christ came also the resurrection of the dead".
"For as by the result of Adam's action all die, so also by the result of Christ's action shall all be made alive"

This hooks right in with Romans 5:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned"

The act: Adam's sin
The result: Sin entered the world
The consequence: All men die
The reason: Because all sinned in Adam