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Offline Reformer

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Identifying “The Dreamer”
« on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 13:47:05 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
IDENTIFYING
”T h e  D r e a m e r”

    How may we identify “The Dreamer”? Isn’t he the one whose goals are never reached? Isn’t he the one who is always drawing up plans that never materialize? Isn’t he the one who frequently verbalizes “tall tales” about his future but nothing constructive ever derives from them? Isn’t he the one whose voice can be heard above all others? Isn’t he the one who speaks of “strategy” and devises agendas without weighing the cost? Isn’t he the one who “tosses his money to the wind”?
 
    Yes, this is “The Dreamer.” He can be found in every walk of life. His specialty is “chewing the cud” and drawing everyone toward his visions. He is soothed and elated when ears are turned in his direction. He dreams by day but sleeps soundly at night. He is more of a day-dreamer than a night-dreamer. His expectations and goals are many. Rarely do any of his plans reach a state of fruition. His fantasies are high, but his ability to translate them into tangible substance is low. King Solomon nailed it:

    “Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest—and poverty will come upon you like a vagrant and scarcity like a beggar” [Prov. 6:6-11].
 
    Jude, the Lord’s servant, speaks of another kind of dreamer. He’s the real bad kind—the kind you might find promoting Godless evolution, espousing same-sex marriage, or speaking disrespectfully of celestial beings. He has an atheistic background. Here is how Jude describes him:

    “Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and slander celestial beings...like unreasoning animals, these are the very things that destroy them” [Jude 8-10].

    Not all dreamers are bad. Many are responsible and constructive dreamers. They make things happen. Dreams, coupled with wisdom and foresight, can achieve goals. Jacob, God’s servant, rested his head on a stone after a hard day of traveling and dreamt of a ladder “with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it” [Gen. 28:10-22]. Jacob was a creative dreamer, and God used him in a big way.

    Joseph, the son of Jacob, was a dreamer. His envious brothers said of him, “Here comes that dreamer” [Gen. 37:19]. They plotted to kill him but instead sold him to a caravan for twenty shekels. They carried him into Egypt where he became Pharaoh’s top aide. Joseph not only dreamed productively, but he also became an interpreter of dreams.

    Other realistic dreamers could be cited. Jesus was a prophetic dreamer—the greatest that ever walked the earth. His dreams [prophecies] always found fulfillment.

    There are many prophetic dreamers who falsely foretell future events and who issue spurious dispatches. They seem to have access to a lot of “inside heavenly data” not available to the average person. The Lord doesn’t like these kinds of dreamers. He warned His listeners, “You are not to listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams” [Deut. 13:3-5]. Under Moses, death was the punishment for such dreamers.

    Within the Christian community today can be found “dreamer prophets” who exploit heaven’s ways to their own financial advantage. They “sucker in” gullible believers for every possible dollar. They can be found splattered all over TV and the Internet. Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey are two examples. When the Y2K was approaching twenty years ago, they prophesied a catastrophe. Nothing happened. These “dreamer prophets,” and others like them, got rich by hustling gullible believers.

    Then there are reckless dreamers. They are “men of the cloth”—the professional clergy. They’re always dreaming of “widening the borders of the Kingdom”—which, in principle, means increasing the size of their religious parties. They pursue their dreams by persuading their flocks to underwrite more and more church structures or by “building onto our current ‘house of the Lord.’ ” These dreamers are promoters of church edifices, an entity that was not part of the early Christian movement. It was the great apostle Paul who announced:

    “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples [or church edifices] built by man’s hands” [Acts 17:24].
 
    Paul spoke these words after becoming distressed when he saw that Athens was swimming in idolatry—“full of idols” [v. 16]. I have no doubt but that if he were to pass our way today, he would become distressed all over again because of our church idols.
 
    Satan is at his zenith when 85 percent of our “church contributions” is squandered on church structures and other materialistic projects and programs and only 15 percent is spent on evangelism and to alleviate the needs of the destitute. Shame on us! My dreaming days are over insofar as contributing one more dime to construct and maintain another church idol.
 
May all of our dreams be constructive.


« Last Edit: Mon Mar 09, 2020 - 19:28:36 by Reformer »

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Identifying “The Dreamer”
« on: Sun Mar 08, 2020 - 13:47:05 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #1 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:41:30 »
We have to have a meeting place. Whether we meet in someone's home, a business, or construct one we sin not. Buildings are not idols. They are an investment in evangelism and edification and provide a base of operations for a local group. There are bigger issues than this Buff. You spend an inordinate amount of time attacking a simple expediency and not enough time attacking worldliness and sin.

As far as the "professional clergy" comment, was Paul a part of the professional clergy. He was supported to preach. Was Timothy laboring in Ephesus part of the professional clergy, Paul urged him to teach that those taught should support those teaching them. Again, you spend in inordinate amount time attacking an expediency and not enough time attacking faith and the new birth.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 06:45:26 by johntwayne »

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 08:36:52 »
More wholesale besmirching of your fellow believers.

Let us all instead be single believers creating internet articles calling out others pretending we do everything perfect in our church bodies of one.

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #2 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 08:36:52 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 21:26:00 »

johntwayne:

    I don’t know how long you have been reading me. I have addressed your response and concerns many times.

    However, I will re-address them again. I’ll post my reply as soon as I have time, which should not be very long. Stay tuned.

Buff

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 21:26:00 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 22:00:57 »
johntwayne:

   I have never indicated it is wrong to meet in some structure. I have said that our church structures are monuments that testify of our idolatry. A few readers—somehow—understood me as being opposed to meeting in any structure. The issue is not whether it’s right or wrong to meet somewhere. That is not what I have addressed.

    The issue is whether or not we have built church structures and edifices and set them apart—sanctified them—as holy articles or entities. I say we have. If I’m correct, we are as guilty of idolatry as were the children of Israel who erected Asherah poles as symbols of worship. God told Israel in no uncertain terms: 

    “Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved [consecrated] stone in your land to bow down before it” [Lev. 26:1.

    As to the second half of your response, I have no objections to supporting evangelists whose function is to carry the Good News to the unredeemed. The institutional church has developed and is cultivating a professional, kingly clergy whose function is to speak for and represent the people.

    They are an elite group of spiritual officials who, like the priests and kings under the old arrangement of Moses, go to God on behalf of the people. Men of this class are considered to be of special rank. They expect to be listened to while behind the pulpit and saluted in the vestibule. They perform the major part of teaching, preaching, exhorting, admonishing, edifying, comforting, praying, visiting, showing compassion, and exhibiting concern. They organize meetings, programs, projects, conferences, and are usually on duty when problems arise or the “enemy” approaches. 

    In most cases, the “shepherds” [Elders] do their shepherding by proxy. After all, they have hired an alien—one who is not part of the sheepfold—to tend and feed the sheep. He’s responsible for the kind of food they consume, how it’s consumed, and when it’s consumed. His “sermons” [a term never once used in the scriptures] constitute the “Gospel,” so if we oppose him we’re opposing the Gospel, “making waves,” and rapidly becoming a “thorn in the flesh” and an obstacle to truth.

    At this point, we have to walk on needles—almost literally—else we’ll find ourselves on the outside looking in, ostracized and branded until we repent.

    This function, this “office,” is as foreign to the new order—the ekklesia of Christ—as “infant baptism,” praying to Mary, and other sectarian additions.

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 22:04:46 by Reformer »

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 10, 2020 - 22:00:57 »



Offline johntwayne

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #5 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 01:12:31 »
As usual you ignore the evidence contrary to your views Buff. Timothy labored with the church at Ephesus, was he part of this clergy you castigate? I think this statement by you says it all concerning your objection to preachers...

Quote
At this point, we have to walk on needles—almost literally—else we’ll find ourselves on the outside looking in, ostracized and branded until we repent.

You have been rightly marked and were it not for faithful gospel preachers who have opposed you and your doctrines you would have led many more astray.

Are there some preachers who have lost their way, yes, but you castigate all preachers. Are there some churches who have lost their way, yes, but you castigate any church that builds a building to facilitate the work of the church.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 01:28:26 by johntwayne »

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #5 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 01:12:31 »

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #6 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 01:35:18 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
IDENTIFYING
”T h e  D r e a m e r”

    How may we identify “The Dreamer”?

Answer: Buff Scott Jr.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #7 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 10:21:41 »

johntwayne:

Out-of-town most of the day. I'll get back to your remarks later.

Buff

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #8 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 18:17:31 »
It was the great apostle Paul who announced:

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples [or church edifices] built by man’s hands” [Acts 17:24].
 
    Paul spoke these words after becoming distressed when he saw that Athens was swimming in idolatry—“full of idols” [v. 16]. I have no doubt but that if he were to pass our way today, he would become distressed all over again because of our church idols.
I believe that was first part of the testimony of the martyr Stephen.  Observe:

Act 7:48  Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

But hey, Paul was there that day.  He must have been listening, even though he was one of the "bad guys" that day.

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #8 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 18:17:31 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #9 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 21:45:14 »
johntwayne:

    You noted earlier today, “As usual you ignore the evidence contrary to your views, Buff. Timothy labored with the church at Ephesus, was he part of this clergy you castigate? I think this statement by you says it all concerning your objection to preachers...”

    John, no offence, but you appear to be somewhat confused relative to “evangelist” and the “professional clergy.” Timothy was not a pulpit minister, not of the clergy caste, but an evangelist. There’s a world of difference between the two. Review my column again, for it relates to this difference—insofar as the clergy is concerned.

    Paul wrote to Timothy and told him to “do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry” [2 Tim. 4:5]. Timothy’s ministry was not pulpiteering, not a clergy person, but a carrier of Good News—gospel, as per the Greek ευαγγελιστής. In acts 21:8, “Philip the evangelist” is mentioned.

    When Jesus “ascended far above the heavens,” He gave the following functions to build up the body of Christ—apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors [shepherds], and teachers. Why did our Lord bestow these functions? “...to equip the saints for the work of ministry” [Eph. 4:10-13].

    You will or should note that our Lord did not bestow a clergy caste or pulpit ministers. Shepherds [pastors] were assigned to leadership and teaching positions. Evangelists were assigned the duty of delivering the gospel [Good News] to the unredeemed. They received their financial support from one of more congregations—or from individual believers.

    The “hired hand” was absent from the early ekklesia. His “office” was devised by man about 200 years after the Lord assigned particular functions.

    You also remarked, ” You have been rightly marked and were it not for faithful gospel preachers who have opposed you and your doctrines, you would have led many more astray.”

    My hunch, John, is that anyone whose views collide with yours is, in your estimation, leading others astray. To put it another way, John T. Wayne is the judge in these matters—disagree with him and you will likely be “marked.”

    You need to understand, my brother, that not all of us are going to agree with your concepts, just as many others do not agree with my  concepts. I do not “mark” those who disagree with me. Apparently, you do. We can disagree and still be brothers of the Lamb. I try to live by the principle, “Revelation is what God said. Interpretation is what we think He meant by what he said.” My interpretation is not revelation. Nor is yours.

Blessings,

Buff

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #10 on: Wed Mar 11, 2020 - 21:52:33 »

Wycliffes_Shillelagh:

I appreciate your remarks [above].

Buff

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #11 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 02:45:43 »
You are simply wrong about Timothy. Note...

1 Timothy 1 Paul left Timothy at Ephesus to instruct men not to teach strange doctrines.
1 Timothy 2 Is filled with instructions Timothy was to pass on to the church at Ephesus
1 Timothy 3 Instructions about the appointment of elders and deacons
1 Timothy 4 Timothy was to teach about those who had fallen away from Christ
1 Timothy 5 & 6 More instructions Timothy was to pass on to the church at Ephesus

I'm sure Timothy taught the lost as well, but Paul wrote to him about his work with the church at Ephesus, the very work that men do today with churches and the work which you decry.

As far as marking false teachers it is commanded in scriptures and your attempt to make it personnel none the less.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
(Romans 16:17-18)

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #12 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 14:31:28 »
johntwayne:

    The scriptures you listed above do not, in any way, support your view that modern-day ecclesiastics within the Christian community are admissible. Again, it seems your conception of the function of an evangelist is distorted.

    Timothy was instructed to bring to maturity any newly established congregation by tutoring—teaching—and by appointing mature men to the position of shepherds who would then lead and instruct. At that point, the function of the evangelist with that newly founded Christian order was completed. He was not then “hired” by their shepherds to “spoon-feed” them for a price.

    I truly do believe you need to carefully review again the early ekklesias and how they functioned. If I might touch upon that facet without boring you and the other readers of our dialogue, allow me to add additional thoughts.

    A “church bulletin” I recently received from Colorado tells it all. The “evangelist” announces his resignation and expresses his appreciation that God has granted him the noble opportunity of “ministering to the saints.” He has been with them five and one-half years and feels it is time to move on to other “evangelistic fields.” In his concluding remarks, he states, “We pray you will find a suitable man to break the bread of life unto you.” 

    Get the picture? The bread of life cannot be broken without the employment of a professional ecclesiastic. The saints would suffer from spiritual malnutrition without him. He’s the minister, the priest, the preacher, the pastor, and the orator. Shades of hallelujah, how far we have drifted! We now demand to be spoon-fed by a special feeder. We have not matured to the point of feeding ourselves. So we all gather at the church corral on Sunday mornings to warm pews while an imported hireling prepares our spiritual food and spoon-feeds us. Is it any wonder we haven’t matured in the faith? 

    Nowhere in the New Covenant scriptures do we find an example of any man being imported by a congregation of believers to function as the minister, the pastor, or the preacher. And that is because the early believers ministered to and edified one another. They didn’t find it necessary to import a professional ecclesiastic to do their ministering for them. They exported men to evangelize, and supported them financially, but no one was ever imported to do what all believers should be doing—ministering to one another. In our contemporary scene, we hire and pay big bucks to a specialist to function as a proxy, the exact opposite of what the early believers practiced. 

    Any principle or practice we introduce in our assemblies today that either denies or interferes with the reciprocity of the saints, such as our “one another” exchanges or joint participation—as the scriptures define it—is a grave innovation. 

    We ought to be reminded that if a congregation can import a man and pay him a big salary to do all or most of the public speaking, the same congregation can import another man and pay him a healthy salary to do all of the singing, and still another man to do all of the praying—for a salary, of course. Well, you get the idea. The principle that allows one allows the others. 

    To state it more explicitly, if importing specialists to feed the flock is heaven’s way, all of our gifts can be performed by proxy. As a result, all we need do is warm a pew and wait till heaven arrives. For, after all, we’re paying others to do our ministries. 

    The universal biblical principle, found throughout, is that in the assembly of the saints, all gifts are to be shared mutually. The “hired hand” interferes with and disrupts this principle. Do you suppose Paul had the professional minister in mind when he told the Roman believers they were “able to instruct one another” [Rom. 15:14]? Surely he was not referring to a one-man instructor! And was Paul coming off the wall with a lot of nonsense when he told the believers at Colosse they were to “teach and admonish one another” [Col. 3:16]? The one-man admonisher was nowhere to be found.

    As to the passage regarding “marking” someone, I suggest you re-evaluate it, alongside your divisive temperament, for you may possibly be pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 14:35:57 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #13 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 15:28:43 »
To state it more explicitly, if importing specialists to feed the flock is heaven’s way, all of our gifts can be performed by proxy. As a result, all we need do is warm a pew and wait till heaven arrives. For, after all, we’re paying others to do our ministries.
But Buff, money is inherently a labor-saving device.  Why shouldn't I be able to pay my sin-eater to absolve my sins?  And while I'm at it, I can hire someone to do my good deeds for me.  (Pro tip: the secular government certifies good-deed-doers and you can get a nice tax deduction if you hire the ones they pre-approve.) 

 ::pondering::

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #14 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 16:39:51 »
johntwayne:

    The scriptures you listed above do not, in any way, support your view that modern-day ecclesiastics within the Christian community are admissible. Again, it seems your conception of the function of an evangelist is distorted.

    Timothy was instructed to bring to maturity any newly established congregation by tutoring—teaching—and by appointing mature men to the position of shepherds who would then lead and instruct. At that point, the function of the evangelist with that newly founded Christian order was completed. He was not then “hired” by their shepherds to “spoon-feed” them for a price.

    I truly do believe you need to carefully review again the early ekklesias and how they functioned. If I might touch upon that facet without boring you and the other readers of our dialogue, allow me to add additional thoughts.

    A “church bulletin” I recently received from Colorado tells it all. The “evangelist” announces his resignation and expresses his appreciation that God has granted him the noble opportunity of “ministering to the saints.” He has been with them five and one-half years and feels it is time to move on to other “evangelistic fields.” In his concluding remarks, he states, “We pray you will find a suitable man to break the bread of life unto you.” 

    Get the picture? The bread of life cannot be broken without the employment of a professional ecclesiastic. The saints would suffer from spiritual malnutrition without him. He’s the minister, the priest, the preacher, the pastor, and the orator. Shades of hallelujah, how far we have drifted! We now demand to be spoon-fed by a special feeder. We have not matured to the point of feeding ourselves. So we all gather at the church corral on Sunday mornings to warm pews while an imported hireling prepares our spiritual food and spoon-feeds us. Is it any wonder we haven’t matured in the faith? 

    Nowhere in the New Covenant scriptures do we find an example of any man being imported by a congregation of believers to function as the minister, the pastor, or the preacher. And that is because the early believers ministered to and edified one another. They didn’t find it necessary to import a professional ecclesiastic to do their ministering for them. They exported men to evangelize, and supported them financially, but no one was ever imported to do what all believers should be doing—ministering to one another. In our contemporary scene, we hire and pay big bucks to a specialist to function as a proxy, the exact opposite of what the early believers practiced. 

    Any principle or practice we introduce in our assemblies today that either denies or interferes with the reciprocity of the saints, such as our “one another” exchanges or joint participation—as the scriptures define it—is a grave innovation. 

    We ought to be reminded that if a congregation can import a man and pay him a big salary to do all or most of the public speaking, the same congregation can import another man and pay him a healthy salary to do all of the singing, and still another man to do all of the praying—for a salary, of course. Well, you get the idea. The principle that allows one allows the others. 

    To state it more explicitly, if importing specialists to feed the flock is heaven’s way, all of our gifts can be performed by proxy. As a result, all we need do is warm a pew and wait till heaven arrives. For, after all, we’re paying others to do our ministries. 

    The universal biblical principle, found throughout, is that in the assembly of the saints, all gifts are to be shared mutually. The “hired hand” interferes with and disrupts this principle. Do you suppose Paul had the professional minister in mind when he told the Roman believers they were “able to instruct one another” [Rom. 15:14]? Surely he was not referring to a one-man instructor! And was Paul coming off the wall with a lot of nonsense when he told the believers at Colosse they were to “teach and admonish one another” [Col. 3:16]? The one-man admonisher was nowhere to be found.

    As to the passage regarding “marking” someone, I suggest you re-evaluate it, alongside your divisive temperament, for you may possibly be pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

Buff

Do you worship together with others or are you mostly just sniping at others from behind your terminal in a congregation of one?

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #15 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 21:34:02 »
CONSERVATIVE:

    I attend the Sunday morning assembly of a congregation composed of many kind and loving believers.

    A few elements of their "worship services" [whatever that is!] and doctrines do not coincide with what I teach and promote, yet they are my brothers and I try to work within as a reformer.

    I do not publicly function as one of their leaders. I am not divisive; therefore, I accept them as blood brothers of the Lamb while realizing that none of us has "all of it down pat."

Buff
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 21:43:18 by Reformer »

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #16 on: Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 21:52:44 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh wrote [above]: "But, Buff, money is inherently a labor-saving device. Why shouldn't I be able to pay my sin-eater to absolve my sins?  And while I'm at it, I can hire someone to do my good deeds for me.  (Pro tip: the secular government certifies good-deed-doers and you can get a nice tax deduction if you hire the ones they pre-approve.)"

I needed that laugh! It relaxed me after a busy day. Thanks.

Sin-Eater...oops, I meant "Buff!"

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #17 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 04:27:19 »
johntwayne:

    The scriptures you listed above do not, in any way, support your view that modern-day ecclesiastics within the Christian community are admissible. Again, it seems your conception of the function of an evangelist is distorted.

    Timothy was instructed to bring to maturity any newly established congregation by tutoring—teaching—and by appointing mature men to the position of shepherds who would then lead and instruct. At that point, the function of the evangelist with that newly founded Christian order was completed. He was not then “hired” by their shepherds to “spoon-feed” them for a price.

    I truly do believe you need to carefully review again the early ekklesias and how they functioned. If I might touch upon that facet without boring you and the other readers of our dialogue, allow me to add additional thoughts.

    A “church bulletin” I recently received from Colorado tells it all. The “evangelist” announces his resignation and expresses his appreciation that God has granted him the noble opportunity of “ministering to the saints.” He has been with them five and one-half years and feels it is time to move on to other “evangelistic fields.” In his concluding remarks, he states, “We pray you will find a suitable man to break the bread of life unto you.” 

    Get the picture? The bread of life cannot be broken without the employment of a professional ecclesiastic. The saints would suffer from spiritual malnutrition without him. He’s the minister, the priest, the preacher, the pastor, and the orator. Shades of hallelujah, how far we have drifted! We now demand to be spoon-fed by a special feeder. We have not matured to the point of feeding ourselves. So we all gather at the church corral on Sunday mornings to warm pews while an imported hireling prepares our spiritual food and spoon-feeds us. Is it any wonder we haven’t matured in the faith? 

    Nowhere in the New Covenant scriptures do we find an example of any man being imported by a congregation of believers to function as the minister, the pastor, or the preacher. And that is because the early believers ministered to and edified one another. They didn’t find it necessary to import a professional ecclesiastic to do their ministering for them. They exported men to evangelize, and supported them financially, but no one was ever imported to do what all believers should be doing—ministering to one another. In our contemporary scene, we hire and pay big bucks to a specialist to function as a proxy, the exact opposite of what the early believers practiced. 

    Any principle or practice we introduce in our assemblies today that either denies or interferes with the reciprocity of the saints, such as our “one another” exchanges or joint participation—as the scriptures define it—is a grave innovation. 

    We ought to be reminded that if a congregation can import a man and pay him a big salary to do all or most of the public speaking, the same congregation can import another man and pay him a healthy salary to do all of the singing, and still another man to do all of the praying—for a salary, of course. Well, you get the idea. The principle that allows one allows the others. 

    To state it more explicitly, if importing specialists to feed the flock is heaven’s way, all of our gifts can be performed by proxy. As a result, all we need do is warm a pew and wait till heaven arrives. For, after all, we’re paying others to do our ministries. 

    The universal biblical principle, found throughout, is that in the assembly of the saints, all gifts are to be shared mutually. The “hired hand” interferes with and disrupts this principle. Do you suppose Paul had the professional minister in mind when he told the Roman believers they were “able to instruct one another” [Rom. 15:14]? Surely he was not referring to a one-man instructor! And was Paul coming off the wall with a lot of nonsense when he told the believers at Colosse they were to “teach and admonish one another” [Col. 3:16]? The one-man admonisher was nowhere to be found.

    As to the passage regarding “marking” someone, I suggest you re-evaluate it, alongside your divisive temperament, for you may possibly be pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

Buff

Nothing new here. You continue to ignore the scriptures and condemn brethren.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #18 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 04:31:38 »
CONSERVATIVE:

    I attend the Sunday morning assembly of a congregation composed of many kind and loving believers.

    A few elements of their "worship services" [whatever that is!] and doctrines do not coincide with what I teach and promote, yet they are my brothers and I try to work within as a reformer.

    I do not publicly function as one of their leaders. I am not divisive; therefore, I accept them as blood brothers of the Lamb while realizing that none of us has "all of it down pat."

Buff

I have to laugh at this. You are not a reformer, but one who tears down the brethren. You are the very definition of divisive.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #19 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 10:44:12 »

johntwayne:

    "I have to laugh at this. You are not a reformer, but one who tears down the brethren. You are the very definition of divisive."

    John, I have no more time and interest to dialogue with someone so mean, divisive, and unloving.  I pray you receive some help and relief from the Lord.

Goodbye,

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #20 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 10:49:04 »
johntwayne:

    "I have to laugh at this. You are not a reformer, but one who tears down the brethren. You are the very definition of divisive."

    John, I have no more time and interest to dialogue with someone so mean, divisive, and unloving.  I pray you receive some help and relief from the Lord.

Goodbye,

Buff

Do you believe it possible that some of those you labeled as "hirelings" are actually placed in those congregations by God?  Many preachers/pastors are not making much money doing such work.  I have met my share of true "hirelings."  Those wanting power and money for a limited amount of effort who have no business being an elder or deacon, let alone a preacher/pastor.

I think you do a disservice or besmirch those that are called by God to serve in an imperfect system, in imperfect churches, by your rhetoric.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #21 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 18:33:44 »
Do you believe it possible that some of those you labeled as "hirelings" are actually placed in those congregations by God?  Many preachers/pastors are not making much money doing such work.  I have met my share of true "hirelings."  Those wanting power and money for a limited amount of effort who have no business being an elder or deacon, let alone a preacher/pastor.

I think you do a disservice or besmirch those that are called by God to serve in an imperfect system, in imperfect churches, by your rhetoric.
I would have thought that the harvesters were meant to be in the fields.  But apparently, some are "called" to sit in the silos and minister to the grain that's already been collected.  God works in mysterious ways, indeed.  ::whistle::

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #22 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 21:22:35 »
I would have thought that the harvesters were meant to be in the fields.  But apparently, some are "called" to sit in the silos and minister to the grain that's already been collected.  God works in mysterious ways, indeed.  ::whistle::

Elders, even those that preach the Word and meant to equip the saints to do the work in the fields.  But nice try.  You might want to work a little harder next time though.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #23 on: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 22:29:04 »
Texas Conservative:

    You noted, "Do you believe it possible that some of those you labeled as 'hirelings' are actually placed in those congregations by God?"

    Considering the principles advanced by Paul that relate to “mutual edification,” I believe hirelings in the body of believers constitute a parasitic cancer that has drained the body of its resources and left it in a state of dormancy and stagnation. If our Lord has placed some of them in the various congregations, Paul was unaware of it when he advocated the “edify one another” principle.

    No, I do not believe all “hirelings” are dishonest in the pursuit of their “theological trade.” The vast majority are sincere and believe they are doing God’s will. They are victims of their digressive and sectarian forefathers, even while they perpetrate the system their fathers founded.

    So what’s the answer? Dismantle the pulpit and remove the man from behind it. Send him out to proclaim the Good News to the unredeemed while the true shepherds oversee God’s flock. If he is set apart by the sheep as a full-time evangelist, support him well, financially and otherwise, just as shepherds [elders] who labor full-time tending their flocks are to be financially supported [1 Timothy 5:17-18].

Buff   
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 23:17:19 by Reformer »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #24 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 18:29:44 »
Elders, even those that preach the Word and meant to equip the saints to do the work in the fields.
Sentence fragment!  (Seriously, what were you trying to say?)

Offline Reformer

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Re: Identifying “The Dreamer”
« Reply #25 on: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 21:29:53 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh:

  Here is what I said, "...just as shepherds [elders] who labor full-time tending their flocks are to be financially supported" [1 Timothy 5:17-18].

    I'm not sure where your quote came from. I don't think I'm the author. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Buff

P.S. Oh, I see, the statement was made by Texas Conservative.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 21:35:46 by Reformer »

 

     
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