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Author Topic: Does the church still believe that God works miracles through the church?  (Read 5016 times)

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Offline grace

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The gift mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:10 "WORKING of miracles" is a supernatural manifestation of the power of God that alters, suspends, or in some way controls the laws of nature.

This is more than just praying for or hoping for a miracle, right? This is WORKING of them...

Isn't this working through the church?

How many people still believe God WORKS through the church in this way?

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Offline Alan

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"Where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am with them", but that doesn't necessarily discount personal petitions, a miracle can occur when we earnestly seek the Lord. (John 15:7)

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Offline MeMyself

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"Where two or three are gathered in My name, there I am with them", but that doesn't necessarily discount personal petitions, a miracle can occur when we earnestly seek the Lord. (John 15:7)

Yes!  Miracles happen every single day! Babies saved rather than aborted! Marriages healed!  Hearts changed and souls saved!  Mindsets reshaped, relationships worked to be restored, a raise from a boss, a surprise phone call and new job offer...all because we earnestly sought the Lord and His will.

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Offline SwordMaster

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The gift mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:10 "WORKING of miracles" is a supernatural manifestation of the power of God that alters, suspends, or in some way controls the laws of nature.

This is more than just praying for or hoping for a miracle, right? This is WORKING of them...

Isn't this working through the church?

How many people still believe God WORKS through the church in this way?

A very good question, Grace. From my observations over the years, many people do not believe that God performs through the church any more. If He does a miracle, then it is solely Him in the act based upon a perverted idea of sovereignty.

However, Scripture says that as long as the church is on planet earth, there will be the Gifts of the Spirit in operation...in the lives of those who are walking with God and not just playing church. Many believe they are saved because of false teachings, when they really have never been saved a day in their lives, and so they go to church and may even seek spiritual gifts, but never manifest any because they don't have the Spirit dwelling within them.

By and large, the church in this country today, has been severly weakened by false teachings to the point that carnal pastors lead churches, and because of this, there are no miracles, there is no demonstration of the Spirit, there is no preaching in the power of the anointing, etc. So, after years of never witnessing a miracle, people just accept the lie that God does not do them in or through the church today.

Both Calvin and Luther taught that God does not work in miracles in the church, and so all the churches that ascribe to calvinistic teachings (which, sadly, is a vast majority today in this country), teach that God doesn't.

I believe the Scriptures, and the Scriptures teach that anyone who is saved and walking with God (that is, walking in obedience to Him in personal relationship based in prayer and worship) not only can, but should be doing what Jesus did...

John 14:12
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

What was Jesus doing? He was healing the sick, casting demons out of people, raising the dead, opening blind eyes, unstopping deaf ears, etc...

For the most part, from my observations, people today even though saved, just don't practice walking in righteousness and holiness...well, I can't jump out of bed after sleeping with a lover and expect for God to work through me. It just doesn't happen like that. When we get serious enough with God and actually start practicing obedience to His Word, then we will see Him move again through us.

Blessings!


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Offline l.a.providence

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I once knew a man who a voice told him to look for a certain object and it kept saying it over and over and the man kept going place after place with the voice saying look here and look there:

Finally, the man claims he saw a window open in the atmosphere "invisible" near him and a spark occurred and the object he was looking for came through the window (some sort of magical opening in the invisible) and magically appeared.

The man came to the conclusion that either 1 or 2 things occured: his faith kept being built up and built up after constant "expectation" and then that faith produced the miracle...or else God, christ, or some heavenly being was speaking to him that made the miracle happen.

i think our faith can get so weak because we never "expect"....someone in our church stood up and said many years ago that they were healed from epilepsy...."i'm wondering how many people really believed that since they told her to keep taking her medication."....now i'm not negating medication either....but really....if someone really got healed and didn't need theirs anymore and then went and told someone they were healed...probably  that negative belief would cancel out the positive belief and nothing would happen.   Really all of this is superspiritual and we need superspiritual wisdom if we want miracles to occur in our lives....especially believing in miracles around people who don't believe... that's why jesus wouldn't go into those towns right?

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Offline 4WD

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The basic problem here is that the word miracle today is used almost always in a non-biblical sense.  Usually it just means marvelous or really, really great or refers simply to something that is not understood.  The biblical meaning of miracle is something that is physically impossible, something that defies the laws of nature.  And usually in the Bible, particularly the NT, when something is said to be a miracle, it was something done or performed by a person through the power of the Holy Spirit.  A miracles in the Bible has three basic characteristics.  First, it are visible. The effect that it produces is i visible by our senses.  Second,  it is contrary to natural law.  It supersedes, transcends or overrides natural law.  Third, it is evidentiary; it serves as a confirmation or proof of the revealed truth that accompanies it.  In almost every case the purpose is less the observed result than the divine affirmation and authorization of the one producing the miracle.  Thus, for example, when Jesus cured someone of some disease, sickness or death it was not the cure that was the point, rather it was a demonstration to all who witnessed the miracle that Jesus worked and spoke by the power of God.  And finally, though perhaps not a characteristic, it was instantaneous, even if delayed as in the case of Jesus' curing the blind man (John 9:6-7).

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Offline Alan

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The basic problem here is that the word miracle today is used almost always in a non-biblical sense.  Usually it just means marvelous or really, really great or refers simply to something that is not understood.  The biblical meaning of miracle is something that is physically impossible, something that defies the laws of nature.  And usually in the Bible, particularly the NT, when something is said to be a miracle, it was something done or performed by a person through the power of the Holy Spirit.  A miracles in the Bible has three basic characteristics.  First, it are visible. The effect that it produces is i visible by our senses.  Second,  it is contrary to natural law.  It supersedes, transcends or overrides natural law.  Third, it is evidentiary; it serves as a confirmation or proof of the revealed truth that accompanies it.  In almost every case the purpose is less the observed result than the divine affirmation and authorization of the one producing the miracle.  Thus, for example, when Jesus cured someone of some disease, sickness or death it was not the cure that was the point, rather it was a demonstration to all who witnessed the miracle that Jesus worked and spoke by the power of God.  And finally, though perhaps not a characteristic, it was instantaneous, even if delayed as in the case of Jesus' curing the blind man (John 9:6-7).


But Benny Hinn.....

Offline 4WD

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But Benny Hinn.....
Now I don't care who you are, that was funny ! ! !

Offline SwordMaster

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I once knew a man who a voice told him to look for a certain object and it kept saying it over and over and the man kept going place after place with the voice saying look here and look there:

Finally, the man claims he saw a window open in the atmosphere "invisible" near him and a spark occurred and the object he was looking for came through the window (some sort of magical opening in the invisible) and magically appeared.

The man came to the conclusion that either 1 or 2 things occured: his faith kept being built up and built up after constant "expectation" and then that faith produced the miracle...or else God, christ, or some heavenly being was speaking to him that made the miracle happen.

i think our faith can get so weak because we never "expect"....someone in our church stood up and said many years ago that they were healed from epilepsy...."i'm wondering how many people really believed that since they told her to keep taking her medication."....now i'm not negating medication either....but really....if someone really got healed and didn't need theirs anymore and then went and told someone they were healed...probably  that negative belief would cancel out the positive belief and nothing would happen.   Really all of this is superspiritual and we need superspiritual wisdom if we want miracles to occur in our lives....especially believing in miracles around people who don't believe... that's why jesus wouldn't go into those towns right?


Seems like he was just hearing voices. One thing I have learned, is that when God does speak (which isn't often) He does not repeat Himself.


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Offline l.a.providence

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A voice in itself is a miracle....yes, some people may think they hear something that is not there....but unfortunately the world doesn't accept that a supernatural voice can speak to someone.... instead they would rather say, "What makes you special that God (or a supernatural voice) would speak to you?"  Shouldn't they rather say, "Teach me what you did to hear the supernatural."  Maybe God wasn't speaking to him...maybe his mind, the holy spirit..etc.. was teaching how faith works....in "anticipation," which really is "belief."  You know, believe something for long enough and it will most likely come true.  That's how Christianity works, through belief. This person would never lie about a miracle either...and he has never proclaimed his miracle....I have a feeling that God works silent miracles all over the world in places unlike the U.S. ...real miracles, not just someone saying, "birth" is a miracle, not negating this though.

Offline AVZ

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Seems like he was just hearing voices. One thing I have learned, is that when God does speak (which isn't often) He does not repeat Himself.

Strange. The thing I learned from scripture is that God repeats Himself all the time.
How many times did God call and warned the Israelites? How many prophets did He send?

Offline AVZ

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Both Calvin and Luther taught that God does not work in miracles in the church, and so all the churches that ascribe to calvinistic teachings (which, sadly, is a vast majority today in this country), teach that God doesn't.

Grossly exaggerated, overstated and colored with personal bias.
You are so consumed by a hatred for anything and everything Calvinist, that you will leave no stone unturned and no opportunity unused to blackmouth the theology even if you have to falsify it's statements and lie about it.

Calvin and Luther never stated such a thing, and Calvinists are perfectly OK to accept, admit and subscribe to the fact that God still works miracles in and outside the church.
The correct statement is both Calvin and Luther concluded that God not longer works miracles in the same way in the church today as He did in the New Testament.
And there are plenty non-Calvinist churches that agree on this point, as there are Calvinists that disagree.

Offline SwordMaster

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A voice in itself is a miracle....yes, some people may think they hear something that is not there....but unfortunately the world doesn't accept that a supernatural voice can speak to someone.... instead they would rather say, "What makes you special that God (or a supernatural voice) would speak to you?"  Shouldn't they rather say, "Teach me what you did to hear the supernatural."  Maybe God wasn't speaking to him...maybe his mind, the holy spirit..etc.. was teaching how faith works....in "anticipation," which really is "belief."  You know, believe something for long enough and it will most likely come true.  That's how Christianity works, through belief. This person would never lie about a miracle either...and he has never proclaimed his miracle....I have a feeling that God works silent miracles all over the world in places unlike the U.S. ...real miracles, not just someone saying, "birth" is a miracle, not negating this though.


I was referring to a voice that wasn't there...either that, or a seducing spirit.


Offline SwordMaster

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Strange. The thing I learned from scripture is that God repeats Himself all the time.
How many times did God call and warned the Israelites? How many prophets did He send?


Perhaps I was not clear. I was addressing when God speaks to an individual, not a sinful nation. There is a difference.

And He only spoke to them over a period of thousands of years because they refused to walk in obedience to Him.


Offline l.a.providence

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Lets say it was a seducing spirit....If someone heard a voice from a seducing spirit then they would be hearing the supernatural and other side or the invisible..all the same i guess...that would be miraculous as well.

Good point about seducing spirits though.....you may have a point.....so why is a seducing spirit getting the permission to produce a miracle and God just won't do one?..or perhaps someone hears a seducing spirit...they then would be connecting to a world that most of us aren't connecting to.  It's sort of amazing really. If any one of us heard a seducing spirit we just might wake up that there is another spiritual world out there...we just might believe something different.

Offline SwordMaster

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AVZ said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Fri Dec 15, 2017 - 12:51:13

   
Quote
Both Calvin and Luther taught that God does not work in miracles in the church, and so all the churches that ascribe to calvinistic teachings (which, sadly, is a vast majority today in this country), teach that God doesn't.


Grossly exaggerated, overstated and colored with personal bias.

Negative, AVZ...I studied both for almost a month, read their own wirtings from their own hands. Neither one of the believed that God did miracles because they never witnessed miracles. Neither one of them believe in the spiritual gift of tongues because neither one of them ever heard tongues nor spoke in tongues themselves. To them, speaking in tongues was orating in different languages for people in their congregations who spoke different languages - like speaking English for the English speakers, then Spanish for the Spanish speakers, and Tagolog for the Tagolog speakers. That is not tongues, there is a difference.

Quote
You are so consumed by a hatred for anything and everything Calvinist, that you will leave no stone unturned and no opportunity unused to blackmouth the theology even if you have to falsify it's statements and lie about it.

Negative, AVZ...I don't lie about anything, but I will use every opportunity to demonstrate that calvinism is a cancer in the Body of Christ...because that is EXACTLY what it is. Like my signature says...

Psalms 119:104
Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

If you cannot see that it is false, then you demonstrate yourself to have no understanding through the Scriptures.

Quote
Calvin and Luther never stated such a thing,


Now you are arguing out of your ignorance of the facts...

OF LUTHER...
Quote
“Also the fool doesn’t understand St. Paul’s words correctly when he writes of speaking with tongues (I Cor. 14[:2-29]). For St. Paul writes of the office of preaching in the congregation, to which it is to listen and to learn from it, when he says: Whoever comes forward, and wants to read, teach, or preach, and yet speaks with tongues, that is, speaks Latin instead of German, or some unknown language, he is to be silent and preach to himself alone. For no one can hear it or understand it, and no one can get any benefit from it. Or if he should speak with tongues, he ought, in addition, put what he says into German, or interpret it in one way or another, so that the congregation may understand him. Thus St. Paul is not as stubborn in forbidding speaking with tongues as this sin-spirit is, but says it is not to be forbidden when along with it interpretation takes place. Hence has come the custom in all lands, to read the gospel immediately before the sermon in Latin, which St. Paul calls speaking in tongues in the congregation.”
  Selected Writings of Martin Luther, Vol. 1; by Martin Luther, Theodore G. Tappert; 1967; Fortress Press; LOCCN 67-25834

OF CALVIN...
Quote
“Further, the visible gifts are declared gone in the context of Calvin’s pertinent remark on the problem of the gift of the holy Spirit (Acts 2:38c, dorea tou hagiou neumatos) being unaccompanied by other tongues. We need to examine his resolution of this problem in order to understand one of the reasons why he declared such a cessation. At Acts 2:38c (‘and you shall receive the gift of the holy Spirit’) he reasons that

          …this does not strictly apply to us. For since it was the inauguration of His Kingdom that Christ meant to set forth by these miracles, they lasted only
          for a time; but because the visible graces that the Lord distributed to His own mirrored forth that Christ was the Giver of the Spirit, the words of
          Peter – ‘Ye shall receive the gift of the Spirit’ – apply in a measure to the whole Church. For although we do not receive the Spirit to the end that we
          may speak with tongues…yet He (the Holy Spirit) is given unto us for a better use, that we may believe with the heart unto righteousness.”

Calvin and the Spiritual Gifts; Paul Elbert; Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 22-3 (September 1979), pg. 247

Elbert (a Calvin Historian) also wrote:
Quote
“While all the visible fruits were for his time frame, Calvin declared a cessation of the visible gifts. This declaration was based on observation and was made within a highly polemical setting of antagonism regarding the miraculous. I think that Calvin did not understand why there was not a total apostolic recapture. Yet he was modest enough to realize that it was difficult to make up his mind about gifts and offices with which he had no personal familiarity.”

There are more, but these will have to do, its getting late. I didn't want to leave your ignorance on the subject unanswered.

Quote
and Calvinists are perfectly OK to accept, admit and subscribe to the fact that God still works miracles in and outside the church. The correct statement is both Calvin and Luther concluded that God not longer works miracles in the same way in the church today as He did in the New Testament. And there are plenty non-Calvinist churches that agree on this point, as there are Calvinists that disagree.

You need to step back and re-read what I said. I didn't say that no calvinists today holds to no miracles, i specifically stated that both Calvin and Luther held to that erroneous belief. Stop reaching for what you can't undo...just address what was stated. Then make another statement if you want to.

« Last Edit: Sun Dec 17, 2017 - 23:55:48 by SwordMaster »

Offline SwordMaster

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Lets say it was a seducing spirit....If someone heard a voice from a seducing spirit then they would be hearing the supernatural and other side or the invisible..all the same i guess...that would be miraculous as well.

Actually, a miracle is not hearing a spiritual or supernatural voice. A miracle is some physical, tangible thing that God does that is out of the ordinary natural, like someone being cancer free after being prayed for healing from that cancer.

Quote
Good point about seducing spirits though.....you may have a point.....so why is a seducing spirit getting the permission to produce a miracle and God just won't do one?..or perhaps someone hears a seducing spirit...they then would be connecting to a world that most of us aren't connecting to.  It's sort of amazing really. If any one of us heard a seducing spirit we just might wake up that there is another spiritual world out there...we just might believe something different.

You can read some New Age writers and see what such seducing spirits are telling them, because they (the people writing what they are hearing) believe that they are in contact with "ascended masters" and other such nonsense, when they are really communicating with demons. Again, hearing them is not a miracle, now if God spoke to you in a vision, that would be a miracle because people don't have visions unless they are induced by God's Spirit.

there is a spirit world out there...remember Daniel when the angel told him that he was on his way with the answer to his prayer, but he was being kept from coming to Daniel by the powers of the air. There is a whole spiritual world around us that we can't see, and the OT demonstrates that physical cities have demonic hierarchy operating within them...and they are called the "prince" of that city...

Daniel 10:13
The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

Blessings!


Offline AVZ

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AVZ said...


Grossly exaggerated, overstated and colored with personal bias.

Negative, AVZ...I studied both for almost a month, read their own wirtings from their own hands. Neither one of the believed that God did miracles because they never witnessed miracles. Neither one of them believe in the spiritual gift of tongues because neither one of them ever heard tongues nor spoke in tongues themselves. To them, speaking in tongues was orating in different languages for people in their congregations who spoke different languages - like speaking English for the English speakers, then Spanish for the Spanish speakers, and Tagolog for the Tagolog speakers. That is not tongues, there is a difference.

Negative, AVZ...I don't lie about anything, but I will use every opportunity to demonstrate that calvinism is a cancer in the Body of Christ...because that is EXACTLY what it is. Like my signature says...

Psalms 119:104
Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.

If you cannot see that it is false, then you demonstrate yourself to have no understanding through the Scriptures.
 

Now you are arguing out of your ignorance of the facts...

OF LUTHER...  Selected Writings of Martin Luther, Vol. 1; by Martin Luther, Theodore G. Tappert; 1967; Fortress Press; LOCCN 67-25834

OF CALVIN...
Calvin and the Spiritual Gifts; Paul Elbert; Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 22-3 (September 1979), pg. 247

Elbert (a Calvin Historian) also wrote:
There are more, but these will have to do, its getting late. I didn't want to leave your ignorance on the subject unanswered.

You need to step back and re-read what I said. I didn't say that no calvinists today holds to no miracles, i specifically stated that both Calvin and Luther held to that erroneous belief. Stop reaching for what you can't undo...just address what was stated. Then make another statement if you want to.

What you are referring to are the "Apostolic gifts" or the "Spiritual Gifts" listed for example in Corinthians.
But there are many many many more ways for God to work miracles in a church.

You make a very blunt statement that "Both Calvin and Luther taught that God does not work in miracles in the church....

That's a lie! Calvin and Luther never taught such a thing.
Calvin and Luther only said that some of the Spiritual Gifts have ceased, or that they should be accepted with extreme caution.
They never ever claimed that God does no longer heals people, or miraculously saves people from persecution etc.

Your second lie is that all churches that ascribe to Calvinism teach that God no longer works miracles in the church.

You are blinded by your misconception and misunderstanding of Calvinist theology. It makes you spout nonsense.

Offline RB

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The gift mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:10 "WORKING of miracles" is a supernatural manifestation of the power of God that alters, suspends, or in some way controls the laws of nature.
Greetings Grace, it very nice seeing you post as always~your questions and post are always done in sincerity with a true desire to know the truth~at least that's what I gather from reading them. I would say yes to your question.
Quote from: grace
This is more than just praying for or hoping for a miracle, right? This is WORKING of them...
Not sure if it can be separated, and why should they need to be? Unless today's faith healers and gospel prosperity preachers think so, mainly so they can profit thereby.
Quote from: grace
Isn't this working through the church?
I would be very careful at this point~I say this for many reasons...1. I would dare say that most miracles go unoticed by the majority professing Christians~ 2. And since most spiritual believers have left the professing churches, per Christ's instructions in Matthew 24:15,16; Paul's in 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; and 2nd Thess. 2; etc. and are meetings in homes.

What we do have in the majority of professing churches "are" signs and lying wonders, that multitudes are falling for. I have witnessed miracles, that ONLY God could have done, and many times we ONLY noticed them after the fact! If you desire to judge men and their true calling, one better test them by the gospel that they preach, and their humble life of serving others and NOT themselves and their lust.

Take time and read this good article:
Quote
http://kotisatama.net/files/kotisatama/Tekstit_ja_kirjat/edwards.pdf
It may serve you well in your question that you asked.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 04:10:00 by RB »

Offline SwordMaster

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What you are referring to are the "Apostolic gifts" or the "Spiritual Gifts" listed for example in Corinthians.
But there are many many many more ways for God to work miracles in a church.

You make a very blunt statement that "Both Calvin and Luther taught that God does not work in miracles in the church....

That's a lie! Calvin and Luther never taught such a thing.

No, AVZ, what you just said is a lie. You need to repent, because Scripture says that all liars will go to the lake of fire.

Quote
Calvin and Luther only said that some of the Spiritual Gifts have ceased, or that they should be accepted with extreme caution.
They never ever claimed that God does no longer heals people, or miraculously saves people from persecution etc.

First, they did very clearly deny spiritual gifts, which include all miraculous events.
Second, when has God ever saved anyone "miraculously" from persecution? You are out in left field again, sir...

Quote
Your second lie is that all churches that ascribe to Calvinism teach that God no longer works miracles in the church.

obviously you either didn't read my last post, or your reading comprehension is so far off base, that you are reasoning as a 70 year old with alzhiemers. I never stated such a thing, but YOU did in your last post before this one...claiming a strawman argument. Sorry, I don't fall for such childish nonsense. If you don't want to believe the historical facts, then that's your problem.

Quote
You are blinded by your misconception and misunderstanding of Calvinist theology. It makes you spout nonsense.

 rofl rofl rofl

Whew!!! Took me a whole five minutes to shake that one off!

Your arrogant ignorance of the facts is truly astounding...you really should study up on what a post addresses before making yourself look foolish. I have studied calvinism now for well over 10 years...which is what first brought me out of that nonsense. I have read John McArthur...Pink...Piper...and a few others who presently escape my mind...not just one book or article, but numerous of each.

Now then, YOU might have some warped understanding of calvinism, or may even subscribe to some warped off-shoot of calvinism, but between all those who I have read, I have a good understanding of the false doctrines of calvinism.

To coin a phrase from my day, you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself...and you have already driven off the road a few times here...



Offline SwordMaster

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REd said...

Quote
Take time and read this good article:
Quote

   
Quote
http://kotisatama.net/files/kotisatama/Tekstit_ja_kirjat/edwards.pdf


It may serve you well in your question that you asked.


Don't bother, grace, unless you really want to. The article is by Johnathan Edwards concerning "religious affections"...which has nothing to do with miracles.


Offline AVZ

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First, they did very clearly deny spiritual gifts, which include all miraculous events.

A) Not all miraculous events come from the Spiritual Gifts, and not all Spiritual Gifts are miraculous events. I said Luther and Calvin believed some of the gifts ceased, you disagree and state that they believed all the the gifts ceased, including the miraculous ones.
So you are making the blunt statement that both Luther and Calvin denied the gifts of wisdom, teaching, faith, service, discernment etc?

Further, when God directly issues a miracle in someones life, than that is not the product of the Spiritual Gifts. So miraculous events do happen outside the realm of the Spiritual Gifts.
Both Luther and Calvin fully accepted the fact that miracles still happen.

In fact you will never be able to make your point, because you are unable to substantiate your claim with documentation that Luther and Calvin denied the Spiritual Gifts.



Second, when has God ever saved anyone "miraculously" from persecution? You are out in left field again, sir...

How about some apostles being chained up in prison and shackles falling off, doors swinging open etc?
How about Paul being stoned, and standing up afterwards like nothing happened?

This last claim of yours actually is the killer of your own argument. So you believe that God never saved anyone miraculously from persecution, and He does not save people miraculously from persecution? Then it is in fact you who denies that God no longer works miracles in the church. Don't look at Luther and Calvin, just look at yourself.

Offline grace

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Very interesting answers!

I see the wording in 1 Corinthians 12:10 extremely important!

It is the power of God operating BY the Spirit of God in and THROUGH the church.

The conversion of a soul is a supernatural experience...a miracle. But is this the same as the WORKING of miracles?
It is the Holy Spirit working through a person, animal (Num. 12) or instrument (2 Kings 2:8), to do something that could not be done normally.   

In contrast I see the gift of faith- God doing the work for us.  In the gift of the WORKING of miracles I see God doing the work through us.

Am I seeing it wrong?

Offline l.a.providence

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I've worked in mental hospitals on 3 different occasions....i'm convinced that the brain can go into a warning and protection mode when a person has erred in his way or done something to violate the brain.  As a result, the brain will throw voices or a voice to a person from his mind to either protect or warn a person or perhaps lead him down a path either profitable or destructible. The bible in ecclesiastes I believe says "God will warn a man, first this way or another,on a bed of pain or perhaps in his ears with warnings."  the verse goes something like that...so there's proof to this line of thought i'm talking about. 


Offline RB

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REd said...

It may serve you well in your question that you asked.

Don't bother, grace, unless you really want to. The article is by Johnathan Edwards concerning "religious affections"...which has nothing to do with miracles.


Many people (NOT saying grace is one of them) get TRUE religious affections confused with false feeling and think that THOSE ARE TRUE SIGNS of God being with them and them with him. The modern-day Pentecostals are the most deceived in believing/trusting in miracles MORE than what constitutes TRUE religious affections!

Jonathan Edwards' writings are far above your ability to comprehend their spiritual worth.

Offline grace

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As I understand scriptures...
There are two reasons God imparts the gift of the WORKING of miracles.
1. They are given as credentials
2. They are given as signs.

The manifestations of the Spirit are not for show off or entertainment!

Seems like the church should expect to see this. All of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are for the edification of the church, right?

Offline RB

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As I understand scriptures...There are two reasons God imparts the gift of the WORKING of miracles. 1. They are given as credentials 2. They are given as signs. The manifestations of the Spirit are not for show off or entertainment! Seems like the church should expect to see this. All of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are for the edification of the church, right?
Greetings grace, I will spend time in the morning (the Lord willing) to answer these questions. What would you consider the WORKING of miracles to be for us today if you do not mind me asking? What is the greatest of the gifts of the Spirit? And do we have the SAME gifts today that the apostles had? If no, then why not? If yes, then why should we not go the children's hospital in this world for Christmas and heal every child therein? I have watched those commercials on TV and my heart goes out to each and every child, whose spirit has more faith than I could ever have. I would to God that these men who call themselves "faith healers" would prove it on national TV by healing these precious little children. If I had the power to heal them, I would walk to the nearest hospital and do it. 

Offline grace

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Greetings grace, I will spend time in the morning (the Lord willing) to answer these questions. What would you consider the WORKING of miracles to be for us today if you do not mind me asking? What is the greatest of the gifts of the Spirit? And do we have the SAME gifts today that the apostles had? If no, then why not? If yes, then why should we not go the children's hospital in this world for Christmas and heal every child therein? I have watched those commercials on TV and my heart goes out to each and every child, whose spirit has more faith than I could ever have. I would to God that these men who call themselves "faith healers" would prove it on national TV by healing these precious little children. If I had the power to heal them, I would walk to the nearest hospital and do it.

Love is the greatest...and everything should flow from love or they are...as sounding brass...they are nothing...profits nothing!

The gifts were given to the church, right? The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is given to every man to profit all!

Did Jesus heal EVERYONE when he was on earth? No!
The gifts are not at our will but the Holy Spirits will, right?  Jesus did only what He saw his Father do, right?

I believe the WORKING of miracles can be defined as a supernatural intervention by God in the ordinary course of nature.

« Last Edit: Tue Dec 19, 2017 - 17:19:45 by grace »

Offline SwordMaster

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Many people (NOT saying grace is one of them) get TRUE religious affections confused with false feeling and think that THOSE ARE TRUE SIGNS of God being with them and them with him. The modern-day Pentecostals are the most deceived in believing/trusting in miracles MORE than what constitutes TRUE religious affections!

Jonathan Edwards' writings are far above your ability to comprehend their spiritual worth.

That may or may not be, Red...but she specifically asked about miracles, NOT affections or feelings.


Offline SwordMaster

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As I understand scriptures...
There are two reasons God imparts the gift of the WORKING of miracles.
1. They are given as credentials
2. They are given as signs.

The manifestations of the Spirit are not for show off or entertainment!

Seems like the church should expect to see this. All of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are for the edification of the church, right?

Correct!!!


Offline MeMyself

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Strange. The thing I learned from scripture is that God repeats Himself all the time.
How many times did God call and warned the Israelites? How many prophets did He send?

 ::smile::

Offline chosenone

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I am aware of quite a few healing miracles among those I know. So when someone was instantly healed after prayer. Or was instantly set free from a long standing addiction after prayer.

Offline grace

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IT also mentions the GIFTS of healingS in Corinthians 12. Is this because God does multiple healings?

I see both the gifts of healings and WORKING of miracles as manifestations of the Holy Spirit because it takes a believer to do them by the power of God that he has been given, right?

Yes, on rare occasions God heals or does a miracle without human agency, but that is not the "manifestation" of the gifts....is it?

Doesn't a person have to have a word of knowledge or wisdom to know what the situation is and what to do about it?

Also isn't the manifestation of faith needed to bring to pass the  healing or miracle?

We must represent Christ on earth by the POWER of God.

When I read in Acts 9 how Peter raised Tabitha I see...
First He prayed (Maybe got a word of knowledge or wisdom at this time?!?)
He spoke the miracle into being.
She was raised from the dead by the power of God.

If only people would step out in faith and do what the Lord tells them to do! Too many times we are waiting on God to do what He has given us the spiritual power to do.


Offline grace

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I am aware of quite a few healing miracles among those I know. So when someone was instantly healed after prayer. Or was instantly set free from a long standing addiction after prayer.

So wouldn't this be in line with John 16:18?

Offline RB

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That may or may not be, Red...but she specifically asked about miracles, NOT affections or feelings.
Fair enough~agreed.

 

     
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