GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?  (Read 5558 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Manna: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2012, 03:12:45 AM »
Would God allow the Sabbath day be changed by "Mans Traditions" or their unholy corrupted authority, lets see...?

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 4:2. "Every word of God is pure. ... Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5, 6.

God has specifically and positively forbidden men to change His law by deletions or additions. To tamper with God's holy law is not something that man can do or even try. God's law is good and a blessing.

"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:25

Jesus said "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19


We must read the scriptures and cleanse those things which are from ancient paganism and false worship especially the day of the sun as the Sabbath, pagan festivals or "Holy Days" that have been spread into many churches beliefs. The Protestant churches that split from and began the Reformation because they saw the truth and fought so hard against the Papal Roman church are now falling back one by one to unifying with it as the ecumenical movement is bringing force to bear, to beliefs in secularism and false doctrines of "Tradition" and paganism. Slowly but surely they are giving up the true beliefs that were their foundation until they become nothing more but secular social clubs with pagan traditions and festivals. The churches of Martin Luther and John Calvin and other reformers must wake up and look what is happening as the reformation had based its separation from Rome on the Word of God, and had placed the gospel of Jesus Christ at the disposal of the common man. The reformers looked to the Word of God seeking knowledge of the plan of salvation and giving the truth to others. The churches of the Reformation and members must go back to the Word and strive to restore truths that have been lost or changed through centuries of false doctrines and "traditions", especially the Sabbath. Read Gods Word and let the Holy Spirit guide you, not man or his 'traditions'..
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:19:23 AM by Hobie »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2012, 03:12:45 AM »

Offline pointmade

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Manna: 50
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2012, 05:58:53 AM »
Hobie: "''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

The RCC did not change the "first day of the week."
He arose from the grave on the "first day of the week."
He instituted the New Testament when He took the cup and blessed it the night before His crucifixion.
He fullfilled the Promise that God made to Abraham on mount Jehovahjireh ( Gen. 22 .)
 

The Seventh-day Adventist is a cult. Its so called "spiritual leader," Ellen White was no more a prophet of God
than Joseph Smith of Mormonism....At most a plagiarist.
"The Lord showed me in a vision" is White's claim to fame.....so with Joe Smith, Muhammad and Elmer Gantry.

The law was negated at Calvary and the Sabbath was of the law...2 Corinthians 3:7; Romans 7:10.
No doubt, Mrs. White did not understand Paul's inspiration and his intellect on Christianity!

Had Mrs. White gotten out of the "vision mode" and studied Paul's letter to the cult in Galatia she may have
comprehended that the "Promise" made at Jehovahjireh superceded the law by 430 years.
The law was "added" because the Jew had forgotten the PROMISE.
Read 2 Chronicles 30 ff where Hezekiah wrote a degree for the Jew "to return again unto the Lord."

That Promise made by God to Abraham was that He would provide the Sacrifice on Calvary as He did on
mount Jehovahjireh.
Our faith is to be in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that He walked away from the grave
on the "first day of the week," which is the "Lords day" ( Rev. 1: 10; John 20:1,26 ).




Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2012, 05:58:53 AM »

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2012, 07:47:35 AM »

I posted this yesterday but I'm assuming you missed it.
]
Resolve: The Seventh Day, as the sign of rest for the completion of old creation, has been replaced by the Lord's Day (Resurrection Day) which hailed the completion of a completely new creation.

The capacity of the seventh day as the Sabbath of the old creation.

Genesis 2:2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Genesis lays out the foundation and purpose of the seventh day as a day of rest honored solely by the completion of the creation of old. That is where the seventh day gets its purpose.

The Israelites entered into God's rest by way of His covenant which made the seventh day their Sabbath Day.

Proof that Christ established a new creation, different from the old, in a new image. A new creation.


2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


So when day in time did God complete His new creation? When was death shattered and the rest was made available to man?

Matthew 28:1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

 6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.


Christ rose on the first day and his resurrection marked the completion of the new creation; the new image we were crafter into. (Colossians 3:10)

Just to be thorough.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


It was by the resurrection that the creation of the new, the redeemed, was completed.

Go back to Genesis and see the what made the seventh day holy.

Genesis 2:3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

For us of the new creation that day was/is Sunday.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2012, 07:47:35 AM »

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Manna: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2012, 03:57:10 PM »

I posted this yesterday but I'm assuming you missed it.
]
Resolve: The Seventh Day, as the sign of rest for the completion of old creation, has been replaced by the Lord's Day (Resurrection Day) which hailed the completion of a completely new creation.

The capacity of the seventh day as the Sabbath of the old creation.

Genesis 2:2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Genesis lays out the foundation and purpose of the seventh day as a day of rest honored solely by the completion of the creation of old. That is where the seventh day gets its purpose.

The Israelites entered into God's rest by way of His covenant which made the seventh day their Sabbath Day.

Proof that Christ established a new creation, different from the old, in a new image. A new creation.


2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


So when day in time did God complete His new creation? When was death shattered and the rest was made available to man?

Matthew 28:1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

 2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

 3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

 4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

 5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

 6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.


Christ rose on the first day and his resurrection marked the completion of the new creation; the new image we were crafter into. (Colossians 3:10)

Just to be thorough.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


It was by the resurrection that the creation of the new, the redeemed, was completed.

Go back to Genesis and see the what made the seventh day holy.

Genesis 2:3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

For us of the new creation that day was/is Sunday.

and as I said there is absolutely no scriptural support

Now support from pagan tradition, that we can see and there is plenty of support that Sunday was chosen for Christian worship because it was the Sun’s day. More evidence is provided by the use of the sun as a symbol to justify the actual observance of Sunday. The motifs of light and of the sun are frequently invoked by the 'Church Fathers' to develop a theological justification for Sunday worship. God’s creation of light on the first day and the resurrection of the Sun of Justice which occurred on the same day coincided with the day of the sun. History shows support for this...

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."Source: Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 145. Copyright 1928 by G. p. Putnam’s Sons, New York.

History shows that church mainly responsible for the source of this change is the Church of Rome. Here was the ancient source of paganism and the social, religious and political conditions which permitted and encouraged the abandonment of Sabbathkeeping and the adoption of pagan Sunday worship instead.

Contrary to most Eastern churches, the Church of Rome was predominantly composed of pagan or gentile converts. Paul in his Epistle to this Church explicitly affirms: "I am speaking to you Gentiles" (Romans 11:13). The predominant Gentile membership apparently contributed to an early Christian differentiation from the Jews in Rome. In 64 A.D., for instance, Nero placed the charge of arson exclusively on Christians, thus distinguishing them from the Jews.

Beginning with the First Jewish Revolt against Rome (66 A.D.), various repressive measures–military, political and fiscal–were imposed upon the Jews, especially as their resurgent nationalism resulted in violent uprisings in many places outside of Palestine. Militarily, Vespasian and Titus crushed the First Jewish Revolt; and Hadrian, the Second Jewish Revolt (132-135 A.D.). Politically, Vespasian (69-79 A.D.) abolished the Sanhedrin and the office of the High Priest; later Hadrian outlawed the practice of Judaism altogether(ca. 135 A.D.). Fiscally, the Jews were subjected to a discriminatory tax (the fiscus judaicus) which was introduced by Vespasian and increased first by Domitian (81-96 A.D.) and later by Hadrian.

Anti-Jewish Contempt is another aspect. That these repressive measures were intensely experience in Rome is indicated by the contemptuous anti-Jewish literary comments of such writers as Seneca (d. 65 A.D.), Persius (34-62 A.D.), Petronius (ca. 66 A.D.), Quintillian (ca. 35-100 A.D.), Martial (ca. 40-104 A.D.), Plutarch (ca. 46-119 A.D.), Juvenal (125 A.D.) and Tacitus (ca. 55-120 A.D.), all of whom lived in Rome most of their professional lives.15 They revile the Jews racially and culturally, deriding Sabbathkeeping and circumcision as examples of Judaism’s degrading superstitions.

The mounting hostility of the Roman populace against the Jews forced Titus, though "unwilling" (invitus), to ask the Jewess Berenice, sister of Herod the Younger, whom he wanted to marry, to leave Rome. These circumstances as well as the conflict between Jews and Christians, apparently encouraged not only the production of a whole body of anti-Jewish literature in which a "Christian" theology of contempt for the Jews was developed, but also the repudiation of characteristic Jewish customs such as Sabbath keeping.

The Church of Rome adopted concrete measures to wean Christians away from Sabbathkeeping and to encourage Sunday worship instead. Justin Martyr, for instance, writing in the mid-second century reduces the observance of the Sabbath to a temporary Mosaic ordinance which God imposed exclusively on the Jews as "a mark to single them out for punishment they so well deserve for their infidelities."

This kind of negative reinterpretation of the Sabbath led Christians to transform their Sabbath observance from a day of feasting, joy and religious celebration into a day of fasting, with no eucharistic celebration or religious assemblies permitted. The Saturday fast served to make it a day of restrive non worship, but also, as emphatically stated by Pope Sylvester (314-335 A.D.), to show "contempt for the Jews" (exsecratione Judaeorum) and for their Sabbath "feasting" (destructione ciborum). The sadness and hunger resulting from the fast would enable Christians to avoid "appearing to observe the Sabbath with the Jews" and would encourage them to enter more eagerly and joyfully into the observance of the pagan day they were used to, Sunday.

Now I showed this to you before but will repost so you can see there is not scriptural support for the change from Saturday to Sunday worship....

...In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb."Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 ­ 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb."Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.
None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.

As pointed out ... Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.

The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16­18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord.

Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise....its that simple.


Sinful and unholy traditions of man cannot change the holy and perfect Law of God.  I know the Law doesnt save you, as Paul writes that we are saved by faith not by the Law, but yet and Paul make it clear the Law still stands to keep us from sin and show us what it is to love God including His day of worship, the Sabbath and to love our fellow man.


Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 04:07:07 PM by Hobie »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2012, 03:57:10 PM »

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2012, 04:45:13 PM »
Quote
History shows that church mainly responsible for the source of this change is the Church of Rome. Here was the ancient source of paganism and the social, religious and political conditions which permitted and encouraged the abandonment of Sabbathkeeping and the adoption of pagan Sunday worship instead.

No European reformers with no knowledge of Christianity apart from Rome they despised says this. You're starting to loose my interest with this ignorance.

I have already quoted St. Ignatius of Antioch's works. He was the ranking Bishop of Syria, where there was a huge Jewish population. Pull out your Bible and you will that the first place were called Christian is the first place Sunday over the seventh day was recorded.

Blaming it on Rome is not an honest historian's evaluation. It is that of people who aren't well versed in Christian history. That seems to be your MO seeing how Purgatory isn't even that old and you thought it was a place.

Quote
Contrary to most Eastern churches, the Church of Rome was predominantly composed of pagan or gentile converts. Paul in his Epistle to this Church explicitly affirms: "I am speaking to you Gentiles" (Romans 11:13). The predominant Gentile membership apparently contributed to an early Christian differentiation from the Jews in Rome. In 64 A.D., for instance, Nero placed the charge of arson exclusively on Christians, thus distinguishing them from the Jews.

Are you trying to be funny?

Every where in the Roman Empire was predominantly pagan. Judea has be predominantly pagan sense Antiochus IV just after Alexander. The brightest Jews studied in Rome and Alexandria.

Josephus, the most prominent Jewish scholar and historian was Jewish and Roman. I am about to seconds from washing my hands of interacting with ignorant indviduals.

Quote
...In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

That is not necessary because most of them occur in the Gospel accounts which don't record post Resurrection history. The Book of Acts was originally a conjoined work of St. Luke so that's wouldn't help either.

The epistles don't mention Sunday observances because they were not an issue. That's how the Bible was written to address specific issues not as the sole or even primary teaching source, which makes sense in a world full of illteracy. St. Paul also makes it clear in Colossians that days aren't important. One day over another is not tantamount to a Church being persecuted by Jews while trying to spread the faith.

You have a poor understanding of the compisition of Sacred Scripture, which only makes sense seeing how European Christians kind of take the Bible and reform it to themselves removing books and adding words as they see fit. I don't blame you or even expect you to actually know about stuff like this.



Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2012, 04:45:13 PM »



Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2012, 05:05:35 PM »
Quote
and as I said there is absolutely no scriptural support

Uh huh

Quote
Now support from pagan tradition, that we can see and there is plenty of support that Sunday was chosen for Christian worship because it was the Sun’s day. More evidence is provided by the use of the sun as a symbol to justify the actual observance of Sunday. The motifs of light and of the sun are frequently invoked by the 'Church Fathers' to develop a theological justification for Sunday worship. God’s creation of light on the first day and the resurrection of the Sun of Justice which occurred on the same day coincided with the day of the sun. History shows support for this...

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."Source: Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 145. Copyright 1928 by G. p. Putnam’s Sons, New York.

An English Egyptologist is supposed to be an expert on Christian history?

Ok lets just act like that makes sense. I am assuming yuou have actually read this work and as such can provide me with its evidene. If this author is a reputable historian he would have provided a biliography of some sorts that helps you identifiy the anicent codices from which he derives his statements. It should be simple enough to find. We who are trained in the fields of Theology and Christian History still use footnotes to cite our works. In the sentence and/or paragraph in which it is located there should be a number in the top righjt hand corner. This number should correspond in numerical order to a list of cited sources in block formation at the bottom of the page. Please provide me the ancient source from which your English Egyptologist derives his position from.

If you have not actually read the book and are just copying and pasting some shotgunned quote you found you are wasting my time. If the author simply makes the claim without citing any ancient sources linking the church-wide Sunday observance first documented in Asia Minor as springing from Rome due to its assimilation of Egyptian paganism then you are also wasting my time.

Your English Egyptologist's claim (and appreantly yours) is that Egyptian paganism assimilated and then spread from Rome is the source of Christian Sunday observance. Validate it.

And we'll just act like the glory of the Resurrection is non-existant here. We'll also ignore the very purpose of the Sabbath and our positions as new creations as well.

If you want to go history then we can do that but you better come correct, Eurocentric.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2012, 05:05:35 PM »

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Manna: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2012, 08:30:14 PM »
I am sure you know who Samuele Bacchiocchi, who wrote the book, From Sabbath to Sunday, and here are some parts related to Rome....

"Various Sun-cults were predominant in ancient Rome by the early part of the second century [A.D.]. That these attracted the imagination and interest of Christian converts from paganism, we found evidenced by the development of the theme of Christ-the-Sun, and by the adoption of the eastward orientation for prayer [true Christians are inclined to pray to the north, where God's throne is located, Psalms 48:2] and of the date of the 25th of December . . . . The valorization of the day of the Sun over that of Saturn, as a result of the diffusion of the Sun-cults, possibly oriented Christians (who desired to differentiate themselves from the Sabbath of the Jews) toward such a day. This choice however, it must be stated again, was notmotivated by their desire to venerate the Sun-god on his day, but rather by the fact that its symbology could fittingly commemorate two important events of the history of salvation -- creation and resurrection: 'it is on this day that the Light of the World has appeared and on this day that the Sun of Justice has risen.' Moreover, the day of the Sun enabled Christians to explain also the Biblical mysteries to the pagan world by means of an effective symbology that was very familiar to them." (pages 268-269).

"The early Christians had at first adopted the seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D., this began to give way to the planetary week. The use of planetary names [Monday, etc.] attests to the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by the converts from paganism" (Webster's Rest Days, page 252).

"[Roman Emperor] Constantine's famous edict (321 A.D.) definitely enrolled Sunday among the holidays of the Roman State religion. The change from Saturn's day [Saturday, the Sabbath] to Sunday must have further commended the planetary week in Christian circles, where the Lord's Day . . . beginning the week, had long been observed as the day on which Christ, the Son of Righteousness [supposedly] rose from the dead. Thus a pagan institution [Sunday observance] was engrafted upon Christianity" (Ibid., p. 222). This edict commanded that "On the venerable day of the sun let all magistrates and people . . . rest" (Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, article "Sunday Legislation").

Emperor Constantine was a pagan sun worshiper who saw that religion could be a unifying factor in his kingdom. "Constantine . . . persevered till he was near 40 years of age in the practice of the established religion [of pagan sun worship]. But the devotion of Constantine was more peculiarly directed to the genius of the sun . . . the sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine," (Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. I, pages 636-638). Even after Constantine's supposed "conversion," he continued his devotion to the Sun. His enforcement of Sunday worship, under the guise of Christianity, continued to brand followers of the state catholic religion with the mark of pagan sun worship....."

History is there for all to see, you cant hide it from everyone forever, maybe twist it but the facts are there......

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Manna: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2012, 08:42:21 PM »
The change from Saturday to Sunday worship had nothing to do with the resurection as you can see that idea was used hundreds of years later to cover up the lack of scriptural support. But from history you can see it was paganisms rituals, customs and sun worship slowly being let into the church. In the boo, The Pagan Side of Easter, we find this, “The observance of the 40 days of Lent during the northern Spring season was derived from the worshippers of the Babylonian goddess. This 40 days of Lent is still observed by the Yezidis (pagan worshippers) of Koordistan, inherited from their Babylonian ancestors. The Lent of 40 days were also observed by the Pagan Mexicans, and the Egyptians who observed this tradition in honor of the goddess Osiris, also known as Adonis in Syria and Tammuz in Babylonia.

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2012, 09:30:56 PM »
I am sure you know who Samuele Bacchiocchi, who wrote the book, From Sabbath to Sunday, and here are some parts related to Rome....

"Various Sun-cults were predominant in ancient Rome by the early part of the second century [A.D.]. That these attracted the imagination and interest of Christian converts from paganism, we found evidenced by the development of the theme of Christ-the-Sun, and by the adoption of the eastward orientation for prayer [true Christians are inclined to pray to the north, where God's throne is located, Psalms 48:2] and of the date of the 25th of December . . . . The valorization of the day of the Sun over that of Saturn, as a result of the diffusion of the Sun-cults, possibly oriented Christians (who desired to differentiate themselves from the Sabbath of the Jews) toward such a day. This choice however, it must be stated again, was notmotivated by their desire to venerate the Sun-god on his day, but rather by the fact that its symbology could fittingly commemorate two important events of the history of salvation -- creation and resurrection: 'it is on this day that the Light of the World has appeared and on this day that the Sun of Justice has risen.' Moreover, the day of the Sun enabled Christians to explain also the Biblical mysteries to the pagan world by means of an effective symbology that was very familiar to them." (pages 268-269).

"The early Christians had at first adopted the seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D., this began to give way to the planetary week. The use of planetary names [Monday, etc.] attests to the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by the converts from paganism" (Webster's Rest Days, page 252).

"[Roman Emperor] Constantine's famous edict (321 A.D.) definitely enrolled Sunday among the holidays of the Roman State religion. The change from Saturn's day [Saturday, the Sabbath] to Sunday must have further commended the planetary week in Christian circles, where the Lord's Day . . . beginning the week, had long been observed as the day on which Christ, the Son of Righteousness [supposedly] rose from the dead. Thus a pagan institution [Sunday observance] was engrafted upon Christianity" (Ibid., p. 222). This edict commanded that "On the venerable day of the sun let all magistrates and people . . . rest" (Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, article "Sunday Legislation").

Emperor Constantine was a pagan sun worshiper who saw that religion could be a unifying factor in his kingdom. "Constantine . . . persevered till he was near 40 years of age in the practice of the established religion [of pagan sun worship]. But the devotion of Constantine was more peculiarly directed to the genius of the sun . . . the sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine," (Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. I, pages 636-638). Even after Constantine's supposed "conversion," he continued his devotion to the Sun. His enforcement of Sunday worship, under the guise of Christianity, continued to brand followers of the state catholic religion with the mark of pagan sun worship....."

History is there for all to see, you cant hide it from everyone forever, maybe twist it but the facts are there......


No this is not history. These are the evaluations of a man some thousand years removed from the time in question. The sources he used to come to these conclusions, those ancient sources, those are what is history.

I have provided my sources direct from the ancient era you have provided none. I respect published work, some published work. I imagine this man like your last author had valid sources. What are they? What ancient texts does he use to connect paganism as being assimilated into Christianity? This should be fairly simple if you have read his book. The bibliography and footnotes should be quite extensive.

Give me those ancient sources. Eusebius, Marcellinus, Praxagoras anybody at all.

You have a surprisingly feeble follow up for such a great talking game.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2012, 09:30:56 PM »

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2012, 09:34:21 PM »
Ignoring St. Ignatius and the Bible I give you is just unbecoming. For one who discards the Resurrection's sovereignty in Sunday observance but then presents himself as honest you are ironically a lot like the Sadduccees.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2012, 09:34:21 PM »

Offline Consumingfire

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • Manna: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2012, 10:19:16 PM »
Ignoring St. Ignatius and the Bible I give you is just unbecoming. For one who discards the Resurrection's sovereignty in Sunday observance but then presents himself as honest you are ironically a lot like the Sadduccees.
The resurrection was late on Saturday...

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2012, 10:49:53 PM »
Ignoring St. Ignatius and the Bible I give you is just unbecoming. For one who discards the Resurrection's sovereignty in Sunday observance but then presents himself as honest you are ironically a lot like the Sadduccees.
The resurrection was late on Saturday...

Not at all.

For one we don't when during the first day Christ rose we just know it was the first day. Furthermore what we call Saturday evening is actually the beginning of the first day. So late Saturday is early the first day.

God and the Jews divide days evening to morning. Everyone else divide day morning to evening.

Disputing that Christ rose on the first day is not really worth the energy.

Offline Hobie

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Manna: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2012, 05:49:12 AM »
Ignoring St. Ignatius and the Bible I give you is just unbecoming. For one who discards the Resurrection's sovereignty in Sunday observance but then presents himself as honest you are ironically a lot like the Sadduccees.
Here is a little background, as the change came from Rome and of pagan and Hellenistic ideas but the other centers of Alexandria and Antioch were even then Christians there including Ignatius was influenced by it and started to observe Sunday too. But Rome was were it was changed and later became codified by the influence of its bishop...

...Sunday is not a strict replacement for the Sabbath, but a day the Catholic Church  instituted to fulfill a parallel function. Thus Ignatius of Antioch, the earliest Church Father to address this question, states that Christian converts "have given up keeping the Sabbath and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead, the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to him [Christ] and his death." (Letter to the Magnesians 9 [A.D. 107]).

The fourth century saw the introduction of Sunday laws. First Sunday laws of a civil nature were issued, then came Sunday laws of a religious character. The emperor Constantine decreed the first civil Sunday law on March 7, A.D. 321. In view of Sunday's popularity among the pagan sun worshipers and the esteem with which many Christians regarded it, Constantine hoped that, by making Sunday a holiday, he could ensure the support of these two constituencies for his government.Constantine's Sunday law reflected his background as sun worshiper. It read: "On the venerable Day of the Sun [venerabili die Solis] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits

Yes it was the  Bishop of Rome who 'officially' changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday in Christendom after Constantine the Great's 321 A.D. edict. Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) was the Bishop of Rome during the reign of Constantine who gave his "stamp of approval" to the 321 Edict.  Sylvester I did this because being in the office of the Bishop of Rome, with its positional authority as it had been the center of the Roman world.  Thus, nodding his approval.  This change from Saturday to Sunday was then codified in the Council of Laodicea (c. A.D. 364), which was not a universal council but a Roman Catholic one, which issued the first ecclesiastical Sunday law. In canon 29 the church stipulated that Christians should honor Sunday and "if possible, do no work on that day,' while it denounced the practice of resting on the Sabbath, instructing that Christians should not "be idle on Saturday [Greek sabbaton, "the Sabbath"], but shall work on that day saying "Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath"...meaning Saturday.

Sylvester I (314-337 A.D.) was the pope during the reign of Constantine. Here is what he thought of the Bible Sabbath: "If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be execration [loathing or cursing] of the Jews."--quoted by S. R. E. Humbert, Adversus Graecorum calumnias 6, in Patrologie Cursus Completus, Series Latina, ed. J.P. Migne, 1844, p. 143.  

From the second to the fifth centuries, while Sunday was rising in influence, Christians continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath nearly everywhere throughout the Roman Empire. But by the fourth and fifth centuries many Christians worshiped on both Sabbath and Sunday. However, Sozomen, another historian of that period, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." These references demonstrate Rome's leading role even then in disregarding Sabbath observance and going to Sunday.  Note that not one writer of the second and third centuries ever cited a single Bible verse as authority for the observance of Sunday in the place of the Sabbath. Neither Barnabas, nor Ignatius, nor Justin, nor Irenaeus, nor Tertullian, nor Clement of Rome, nor Clement of Alexandria, nor Origen, nor Cyprian, nor Victorinus, nor any other author who lived near to the time when Jesus lived knew of any such instruction from Jesus or from any part of the Bible, it came from paganism not scripture.

Now on the impression that John was referring to Sunday when he stated he was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10). In the Bible, however, the only day referred to as the Lord's special possession is the Sabbath. Christ stated, "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God" (Ex. 20:10); later calling it "My holy day" (Isa. 58:13). And Christ called Himself "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28). Since, in the Scripture, the only day the Lord calls His own is the seventh-day Sabbath, it seems logical to conclude that it was the Sabbath to which John was referring. There is no Biblical precedent to indicate he would apply that term to the first day of the week, or Sunday.Nowhere does the Bible command us to observe any weekly day other than the Sabbath. It declares no other weekly day blessed or holy. Nor does the New Testament indicate that God has changed the Sabbath to any other day of the week.

On the contrary, Scripture reveals that God intended that His people should observe the Sabbath throughout eternity: "'As the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before me,' says the Lord, 'so shall your descendants and your name remain. . . . From one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,' says the Lord" (Isa. 66:22, 23).

Scripture reveals that the observance of Sunday as a Christian institution was fortold and had its origin in "the mystery of lawlessness" (2 Thess. 2:7), which was already at work in Paul's day. Also through the prophecy of Daniel 7 God revealed His foreknowledge of the change of the day of worship. Daniel's vision depicts an attack on God's people and on Gods Law including the Sabbath. The power brought to bear which would do the change was represented by a little horn which would bring about the great apostasy within the Christian church. Arising from the fourth beast or Roman Empire and becoming a major persecuting power after
the fall of Rome, this power or the little horn attempts to "change the times and law" (Dan. 7:25). This apostate power is very successful at deceiving most of the world, but at the end the judgment will decide against it (Dan. 7:11, 22, 26).

Scripture shows that the change to Gods Law would be done, but it was not because God changed it or from the resurection of Christ, but from apostasy brought on by by a power of "the mystery of lawlessness", and history confirms it step by step, almost to a tee...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 06:36:23 AM by Hobie »

Offline Talking Donkey

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2012, 06:12:25 AM »
The day of Christ resurrection did not change the Sabbath.  The Sabbath law was written in stone with the finger of God... it can't be erased.  The Sabbath command is still part of God's law.

I prefer to gather as a congregation to lift Jesus up on Sunday morning because I want to.  I want to serve him first, before anyone else.  It has nothing to do with any law.  It it is not something I have to do.  It is something I want to do.

Because there is no Sunday law, I can work on Sunday if I want to.

What we do as Christians the first day of the week, we do driven by love, not driven by some law, it is a free will offering.

I do not care for the 4th commandment, not at all.  If I cared to keep the 4th commandment, this is what I will never do on Saturdays:

7 Things that the law forbids us to do on Sabbath days:

We can not prepare food (cook or bake, Exo 16:23). 
We can not light a fire (Exo 35:3), so forget BBQs, if you want to keep the Sabbath.
We can not buy or sell (Neh 10:31; Neh 13:15-19)
We can not carry a anything heavy (Neh 13:15-19, Jer 17:22-23)
We can not travel (leave or enter a city, Exo 16:29; Neh 13:15-19; Act 1:12)
We can not do any kind of work (Exo 20:10; Mat 12:5; John 5:17-18)
We can not pay anyone to do those things for us (Lev 25:6)
Besides that, we also have to work 6 days a week, not 5 (Exo 20:9).

If you want to come here and boast about how righteous you are, by all means, keep the Sabbath the right way, not 50% of the way.

Two things Sabbath keepers can't stop doing:

1.  Praising their righteousness in accordance to the law
2.  Accusing others of braking God's law

Watch ... here they come... watch....



Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: Does the day of Christ ressurection change the Sabbath?
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2012, 10:41:05 AM »
In guessing you just haven't actually read those books because you have yet to provide their sources. I'm proud to say I do my homework so if I cite any author I can cite more than just his evaluations I can cite the ancient text he derives them from. However let's just move on.

Quote
Here is a little background, as the change came from Rome and of pagan and Hellenistic ideas but the other centers of Alexandria and Antioch were even then Christians there including Ignatius was influenced by it and started to observe Sunday too. But Rome was were it was changed and later became codified by the influence of its bishop...

A bishop I'm about 85% sure you can't even name but let's move on. I already know what your position is. It's big boy evidence we're having trouble extracting from you.

Quote
The fourth century saw the introduction of Sunday laws. First Sunday laws of a civil nature were issued, then came Sunday laws of a religious character. The emperor Constantine decreed the first civil Sunday law on March 7, A.D. 321. In view of Sunday's popularity among the pagan sun worshipers and the esteem with which many Christians regarded it, Constantine hoped that, by making Sunday a holiday, he could ensure the support of these two constituencies for his government.Constantine's Sunday law reflected his background as sun worshiper. It read: "On the venerable Day of the Sun [venerabili die Solis] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits

That's incorrect. Sunday observances were passed through ecclesiastical decrees before any civil laws and before Constantine was even born.

Council of Elvira 300-303 AD

Canon 21 If anyone who lives in the city does not attend church services for three Sundays, let that person be expelled for a brief time in order to make the reproach public.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

Justin Marytr, First Apology 150 AD


Justin Marytr was born in Palestine just to let you know in like 105 AD. St. John and St. Mark were still alive at the time.

cont....