Author Topic: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?  (Read 1549 times)

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Offline dan p

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DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« on: Sat May 21, 2022 - 12:55:50 »
 And if  BAPTISM / BAPTIZO  always mean to  IMMERSE or to  PLUNGE or  SUBMERGED ,can anyone  explain  1 Cor 10:2 And  all were  BAPTIZED unto  Moses in the  CLOUD and in the  SEA , say how they were  BAPTIZED ?

 SOMEONE was  BAPTIZED  and who were THEY , the  army that followed  them !!

 dan p

Offline RB

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 22, 2022 - 04:07:17 »
And if  BAPTISM / BAPTIZO  always mean to  IMMERSE or to  PLUNGE or  SUBMERGED ,can anyone  explain  1 Cor 10:2 And  all were  BAPTIZED unto  Moses in the  CLOUD and in the  SEA , say how they were  BAPTIZED ?

 SOMEONE was  BAPTIZED  and who were THEY , the  army that followed  them !!

 dan p
Well, Dan, I would not call Pharaoh and his army a baptism~for there was no resurrection of them! Israel went into the water and CAME OUT on the other side SAVED!

The word baptism has a few senses it is used in the holy scriptures~Pharaoh and his army is not one of them, pretty sure of that. 

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 22, 2022 - 06:04:53 »
The words "baptize" and "baptism" are transliterations of the Greek words "baptizō" and "baptisma". That is because the RCC had introduced sprinkling and pouring as acceptable alternatives to immersion, which, by the way, they are not.  Prior to the translation of the Bible into English, there is no record of the word baptize, or so I read somewhere. I suspect that is true, because of the broad influence of the RCC at the time.  Baptize means immerse. It was not a word limited to a theological application.

I am not convinced that baptize rather than immerse is the best translation of verses such as Mark 10:38-39.  For example, we speak of "being immersed in our work"; we never speak of being baptized in our work. I suspect that immersed is the better translation of such verses.

I think that "immersed", rather than "baptized" is possibly a better translation/interpretation of 1 Corinthians 10:2.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 11:49:10 »
And if  BAPTISM / BAPTIZO  always mean to  IMMERSE or to  PLUNGE or  SUBMERGED ,can anyone  explain  1 Cor 10:2 And  all were  BAPTIZED unto  Moses in the  CLOUD and in the  SEA , say how they were  BAPTIZED ?

 SOMEONE was  BAPTIZED  and who were THEY , the  army that followed  them !!
Baptizo means "sink" and "drown."

You COULD say that Pharoah's army was baptized.  That accurately describes what happened to them.

However, that is NOT what 1st Corinthians 10:2 says.  It says that the mass of people following Moses out of Egypt were baptized.

The point in the chapter is that even the elect can perish, even those who have been baptized.

Jarrod

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 11:49:10 »

Offline dan p

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 12:45:59 »
And in  Heb 11:29 ,  by  FAITH  they  passed  (  Israel  )  through the  RED  SEA  , as by  DRY  LAND  ,  which the  Egyptians assaying to DO  were  DROWNED , and I say it means  that they were IMMERSED , SUBMERGED and  were  water  BAPTIZED .

 dan p

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 12:45:59 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 13:46:42 »
And in  Heb 11:29 ,  by  FAITH  they  passed  (  Israel  )  through the  RED  SEA  , as by  DRY  LAND  ,  which the  Egyptians assaying to DO  were  DROWNED , and I say it means  that they were IMMERSED , SUBMERGED and  were  water  BAPTIZED .

 dan p
Yes, the Egyptians drowned.

In baptism, the person goes down in the water and DROWNS.  Then, they are reborn as a new man, and it is that new man who emerges from the water.

Still waiting for those Egyptians to emerge...

Offline RB

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #6 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 13:47:13 »
And in  Heb 11:29, by FAITH they passed ( Israel ) through the  RED  SEA, as by DRY LAND, which the  Egyptians assaying to DO were DROWNED, and I say it means that they were IMMERSED, SUBMERGED and were water BAPTIZED. dan p
Greetings Dan~after I posted to you and begin to think and run scriptures through my mind and here's what I came up with, not so much to support your position, but think where do the scriptures say the wicked shall be baptized. Here's God's testimony
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 3:7-12~"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.....................READ CAREFULLY THE FOLLOWING WORDS~RB..................................... And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Here is a baptism of fire whereas God shall cast all the generation of vipers into at the last judgment which is the lake of fire, which is the second death..... eternal destruction. This is called a baptism of fire which some of the Pentecostals confused with the baptism of the Spirit, which is the ever-present dwelling of God's Spirit to comfort, empower the believer's and to guide and protect them during their earthly journey through the enemies country.

So, Dan, maybe I need to re-think what I said above:
Quote from: RB
Well, Dan, I would not call Pharaoh and his army a baptism~for there was no resurrection of them! Israel went into the water and CAME OUT on the other side SAVED!

The word baptism has a few senses it is used in the holy scriptures~Pharaoh and his army is not one of them, pretty sure of that.
Even though there was NO RESURRECTION with Pharaoh and his host, like those cast into the lake of fire, nevertheless, Jesus called the final judgment a baptism of fire.
« Last Edit: Mon May 23, 2022 - 13:55:33 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #7 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:00:02 »
Yes, the Egyptians drowned.

In baptism, the person goes down in the water and DROWNS.  Then, they are reborn as a new man, and it is that new man who emerges from the water.

Still waiting for those Egyptians to emerge...
They will on the last day~only be rebaptized into the "lake" of fire.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:10:48 »
Here is a baptism of fire whereas God shall cast all the generation of vipers into at the last judgment which is the lake of fire, which is the second death..... eternal destruction. This is called a baptism of fire which some of the Pentecostals confused with the baptism of the Spirit, which is the ever-present dwelling of God's Spirit to comfort, empower the believer's and to guide and protect them during their earthly journey through the enemies country.

I believe the baptism with "the Holy Spirit and with fire" of Matthew 3:11 is one baptism. It is in water; the result is the indwelling Holy Spirit with the fire of cleansing, of purifying, i.e., forgiveness of sin.  John signals here the real difference between his baptism for repentance and baptism in the name of Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of sin AND the giving of the gift of, the indwelling, Holy Spirit.  The Unquenchable fire of Matthew 3"12 is not the fire of purifying as in verse11 but, as you noted, the second death. There is in the Bible, as you well know, the concept of the purifying fire and the destroying fire.  I think that both are cited here.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:10:48 »

Offline RB

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #9 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:12:22 »
Yes, the Egyptians drowned.

In baptism, the person goes down in the water and DROWNS.  Then, they are reborn as a new man, and it is that new man who emerges from the water.

Still waiting for those Egyptians to emerge...
They will on the last day~only be rebaptized into the "lake" of fire.

You need to change your wording:
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
Then, they are reborn as a new man
What are you going to say about......
Quote from: Peter
Acts 10:47,48~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
If one has the Spirit they are ALREADY born of God, if any man does not have the Spirit they are NOT of God.
Quote
Romans 8:9~"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
There are only two possible scenarios for all who live in the flesh: One, is a person is void of the Spirit of God; the other they are indwelt of the Spirit of God. If one is void of the Spirit, they are not born of God as of yet; if they have the Spirit, then at some point of time, they were born of God and the evidence is they will believe, repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, even in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.
« Last Edit: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:15:59 by RB »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #10 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:18:09 »
You need to change your wording: What are you going to say about......

Acts 10:47,48~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
I'm going to say that it wasn't normal.   Normally, the Spirit and the water should happen at roughly the same time.  But in this instance, the church lagged behind, because they had some prejudice with regards to Gentile converts.  Peter is basically telling them to get a move on, because God was moving forward with or without them.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #11 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:23:11 »
If one has the Spirit they are ALREADY born of God
Balaam's donkey had the Spirit allowing it to speak.  Was it born of God?  Judas Iscariot had the Spirit to work miracles as did the rest of the twelve. Was he born of God?

In your reference to Acts 10, that is Peter talking to the rest of the apostles who had the empowering Spirit for signs, wonders, and miracles.  It is that Spirit that Peter is referring to, not the indwelling Spirit.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #12 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:30:02 »
I believe the baptism with "the Holy Spirit and with fire" of Matthew 3:11 is one baptism. It is in water; the result is the indwelling Holy Spirit with the fire of cleansing, of purifying, i.e., forgiveness of sin.
Water baptism does not fit in with the CONTEXT of Matthew 3:7-12.
Quote
John signals here the real difference between his baptism for repentance and baptism in the name of Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of sin AND the giving of the gift of, the indwelling, Holy Spirit.
This is wrong my friend~because of Acts 19 proves this not to be the case! Also, consider Acts 18, with Apollos:
Quote
Acts 18:24-26"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
John's disciples never were told about the Holy Spirit, even to the point they did not even know He existed! The same concerning Apollos~he most likely knew about the Spirit, he just did not understand the full ramifications of the giving of the Spirit as far as under the New Covenant.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #13 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:33:51 »
Balaam's donkey had the Spirit allowing it to speak.  Was it born of God?
Okay, I'll come back and we shall discuss this trusting for the good of others. See you early in the morning so go to bed and get plenty of sleep.  ::smile::

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #14 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:48:17 »
This is wrong my friend~because of Acts 19 proves this not to be the case!
Acts 19 proves that it is the case.  That is precisely why Paul asked about their baptism. If it wasn't the case, there wouldn't have been any reason for Paul to question their baptism.

But I will consider what you have to say.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #15 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 05:27:38 »
The words "baptize" and "baptism" are transliterations of the Greek words "baptizō" and "baptisma". That is because the RCC had introduced sprinkling and pouring as acceptable alternatives to immersion, which, by the way, they are not.  Prior to the translation of the Bible into English, there is no record of the word baptize, or so I read somewhere. I suspect that is true, because of the broad influence of the RCC at the time.  Baptize means immerse. It was not a word limited to a theological application.
Actually it was NOT the RCC that prompted King James to instruct the translators to invent a new word "baptize," it was the upper clergy of the Church of England. James was already on rocky ground with them and they borrowed from the RCC the practice of sprinkling.  He did not want to upset them further so he had the translators create a new word that could be understood to mean anything they wanted. 

To properly translate bapto and baptizo as dip, soak, plunge, immerse, etc. would have shown them to be wrong in their practice.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #16 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 05:33:19 »
Balaam's donkey had the Spirit allowing it to speak.  Was it born of God?  Judas Iscariot had the Spirit to work miracles as did the rest of the twelve. Was he born of God?
Difference between Spirit Within and Spirit Upon.  Donkey had Spirit Upon.

None of the disciples/apostles had Spirit Within until John 20.22.  The miracles they did were from Spirit Upon. 


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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #17 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 06:29:21 »
Actually it was NOT the RCC that prompted King James to instruct the translators to invent a new word "baptize," it was the upper clergy of the Church of England. James was already on rocky ground with them and they borrowed from the RCC the practice of sprinkling.  He did not want to upset them further so he had the translators create a new word that could be understood to mean anything they wanted. 

To properly translate bapto and baptizo as dip, soak, plunge, immerse, etc. would have shown them to be wrong in their practice.
Yes, but it was the RCC that had corrupted the process in the first place. The Church of England simply followed the practice.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #18 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 06:52:37 »
Difference between Spirit Within and Spirit Upon.  Donkey had Spirit Upon.

None of the disciples/apostles had Spirit Within until John 20.22.  The miracles they did were from Spirit Upon.

Yes.  However, I am not convinced that they received the Spirit Within on that very occasion.  I tend to think that it was more in the sense of an explicit prophecy of things to come very shortly.  My reason for such a view derives from Jesus' teaching in John 16:4-15 on the work of the Holy Spirit.  There Jesus associated the sending of the Holy Spirit Within with His "going away", i.e., with His ascension.  That coupled with His prophecy/promise in Acts 1:4-5 suggests to me that John 20:22 was a statement of things to come very shortly. I am not absolutely convinced of that, but that makes the most sense to me. And that is what I will hold to unless it is proven to me to be otherwise.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #19 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 07:50:09 »
Yes.  However, I am not convinced that they received the Spirit Within on that very occasion.  I tend to think that it was more in the sense of an explicit prophecy of things to come very shortly.  My reason for such a view derives from Jesus' teaching in John 16:4-15 on the work of the Holy Spirit.  There Jesus associated the sending of the Holy Spirit Within with His "going away", i.e., with His ascension.  That coupled with His prophecy/promise in Acts 1:4-5 suggests to me that John 20:22 was a statement of things to come very shortly. I am not absolutely convinced of that, but that makes the most sense to me. And that is what I will hold to unless it is proven to me to be otherwise.
John 20 - Spirit Within
Acts 2 - Spirit Upon (and within for the 3000 new believers)

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #20 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 08:03:16 »
John 20 - Spirit Within
Acts 2 - Spirit Upon (and within for the 3000 new believers)

Acts 1:4-5 -- Spirit Within
Acts 1:8  -- Spirit Upon
Acts 2:4   -- Spirit Upon
Acts 2:38   -- Spirit Within

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #21 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 09:55:19 »
Acts 1:4-5 -- Spirit Within
Upon. 
Quote
Acts 1:8  -- Spirit Upon
Agreed
Quote
Acts 2:4   -- Spirit Upon
Agreed
Quote
Acts 2:38   -- Spirit Within
Agreed.

Spirit Within is for wisdom and character - developing into fruit.

Spirit Upon is for acts of supernatural power.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #22 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 13:05:00 »
Spirit Within is for wisdom and character - developing into fruit.

Spirit Upon is for acts of supernatural power.

Agreed.  However, Baptism with the Holy Spirit is Spirit Within.  If you would like dispute that, why not start a new topic.
« Last Edit: Tue May 24, 2022 - 13:07:10 by 4WD »

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #23 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 14:00:09 »
4WD:

Your Reply #2 is right on target!

Buff

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #24 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 14:41:56 »
 And readings  Acts 2:38 , it says to be  BAPTIZED   (  WITH WATER ) in the name of Jesus  Christ  for the  FORGIVENESS  of  Sins and you  will  receive the  GIFT  of HOLY  SPIRIT .

 Does this mean that  WATER  BAPTISM  does  forgive  SINS ??

 Why the  change from Matt 28:19 to  Baptize in the  name of the  FATHER and of the  SON and of the HOLYN MSPIRIT , to in the NAME OF  JEAUS  CHRIST ??

 And why are the  Greek words  WILL RECEIVE the  gift of HOLY  SPIRIT in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE , WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY ??

 dan p

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #25 on: Tue May 24, 2022 - 15:22:35 »
And readings  Acts 2:38 , it says to be  BAPTIZED   (  WITH WATER ) in the name of Jesus  Christ  for the  FORGIVENESS  of  Sins and you  will  receive the  GIFT  of HOLY  SPIRIT .

 Does this mean that  WATER  BAPTISM  does  forgive  SINS ??
Actions don't forgive sins; people do.  Or in this case, God.

Why the  change from Matt 28:19 to  Baptize in the  name of the  FATHER and of the  SON and of the HOLYN MSPIRIT , to in the NAME OF  JEAUS  CHRIST ??
That's not a change.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit just have one name.

Go check the Greek in Matthew 28:19... name is singular.  There's just one name, and that name is Jesus.

And why are the  Greek words  WILL RECEIVE the  gift of HOLY  SPIRIT in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE , WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY ??
Because it hasn't happened yet.  Easy one.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #26 on: Wed May 25, 2022 - 21:41:01 »
dan p:

"Does this mean that WATER BAPTISM does forgive SINS?"

    Immersion in water is an act that confirms we have accepted Jesus as our Savior. Repentance [reformation or change] works on the same level.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #27 on: Wed May 25, 2022 - 21:46:19 »
Jarrod:

    The gift of the Holy Spirit occurred on the first Pentecost after Jesus' resurrection, when the Spirit was poured out upon the Twelve [see Acts 2].

Buff

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #28 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 02:57:47 »
And readings  Acts 2:38 says to be  BAPTIZED   (WITH WATER) in the name of Jesus  Christ for the  FORGIVENESS  of  Sins and you will receive the GIFT of HOLY  SPIRIT.  Does this mean that  WATER  BAPTISM does forgive  SINS
Dan, context is king, it IS what drives the interpretation for us. Let us read some of the contexts from Peter's sermon on the first Pentecost after Jesus' death and resurrection.
Quote from: Peter
Acts 2:14-38~"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
A lot here and much could be said, but to be short I will only say a few things for now.

Many of us are like Peter, quoting scriptures yet not understanding every word of the scriptures we use from time to time.

Peter quoted Joel and said:
Quote
Acts 2:21~"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"
Peter did not know when quoting this scripture from Joel that the prophet was speaking of GENTILES being saved. It was not until after his visit to Cornelius' house did he fully understood Joel's words!
Quote from: Peter again
Acts 10:34,35~"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
Peter perceives the same concerning those at Pentecost when we read these words:
Quote
Acts 2:37~"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Peter, the man of God who understood the SIGNS of folks who have BEEN QUICKEN to life, by the very fact they were pricked in their hearts, said the following words:
Quote
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The keyword is "for", meaning "because of" not order to obtain! For is used in the sense over and over again in the scriptures.
Quote
Mark 1:39-44~"And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils. And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean. And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed. And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away; And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them."
This leper was not sent to the priest to get cleansed, but because he WAS clean he was sent to offer FOR A TESTIMONY of being made clean by the power of God. The same language is used in Acts 2:38,39. Peter understood that their heart had been ALREADY changed so, he commanded them to be baptized so that they would receive the Spirit~and truly the only thing they could benefit from at this point was the salvation a fuller knowledge of the great salvation Christ secured for his elect including the ever-present abiding of the Spirit of God as their comforter on their journey to the city that hath foundation whose Builder and Maker is God. 

More could be said but enough for now.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #29 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 04:55:37 »
The keyword is "for", meaning "because of" not order to obtain! For is used in the sense over and over again in the scriptures.
Once again you allow yourself to be deceived due to your refusal to accept the truth that the NT was written in Greek, not English. In English, the word "for" can be used in the sense of "because of" or "in order to". That is simply not the case for the Greek word εἰς [eis]. It never means "because of". The translation of "for" in "for your cleansing" in Mark 1:44 is from the Greek word περί [peri] not εἰς [eis].  Indeed the Greek word περί [peri] can be interpreted as "for" meaning "because of" or "on account of".  You said,

Quote from: RB
The same language is used in Acts 2:38,39.
You are wrong, dead wrong. It is not the same language.  It is a completely different language.

I said that you allow yourself to be deceived.  But it is really the case that you intentionally deceive yourself in your refusal to accept the fact that the NT was not written in English.  And that because you cannot accept the message actually provided by Luke, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2:38. And in doing so, you deny what the Holy Spirit said.
« Last Edit: Thu May 26, 2022 - 05:00:16 by 4WD »

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #30 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 08:14:17 »
A question for any and all of you, including Dan and his current study on baptism. (Not OT at all IMO)

Is baptism. ( the full submersion ) for man or is it for God?

Now, I do not mean that of a "salvation baptism , as is mentioned in mark 16:16, or another that some would argue was
in obedience once one comes to a truth faith in Jesus... but that where others see what is being done.

( Even the RCC and those Protestants who sprinkle it is never just the dedication of the baby to God, through the clergy sprinkler, but always with many viewing that the parents are giving that child into the hands of God  ... which is step one for those folks.)

Surely God knows within a heart if one has truly ( repented ) and has that .. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the LORD Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” mindset.

Then to whom is the visible baptism for?

Surly God knows who is firm in his beliefs and surly God knows that those who get Baptized without a deep seated knowledge of Him, do not and may never "know Him".

So, is it for example to those who are not God's yet? A visible proof that God uses to show others those that do believe?


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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #31 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 09:11:11 »
Then to whom is the visible baptism for?
There is no command that baptism be conducted in view of any other than the one doing the baptizing.  It is not a demonstration of anything. It is for the remission of sin and the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: Rella
Surly God knows who is firm in his beliefs and surly God knows that those who get Baptized without a deep seated knowledge of Him, do not and may never "know Him".
And there is no command that one must have a deep seated knowledge of God before being baptized.  It is only necessary to believe; and that even if at a very immature level. The primary function of the indwelling Holy Spirit given as a gift at baptism is to give aid and comfort to the repentant believer as he matures.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #32 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 10:43:27 »
Rella, in my opinion God doesn’t need to “see” the baptism to know repentence has taken place in the heart, but like with Abraham, God DOES look at and consider obedience essential. It was enough for God that Abraham obeyed when told to sacrifice Isaac (God knew his heart), but the angel stopped his hand.

As to witnesses, I assume Phillip the baptizor was the only human witness to the Eunoch’s baptism. So no one was motivated by the Eunoch’s obedience in baptism.

We die to ourselves in tthe “watery grave” baptism and are raised up out of the water to walk a new life WITH the newly acquired indwelling gift of the Spirit and with our sins washed away just as with Paul’s baptism in Acts 22. The reason Ananias admonished him, “why do you tarry…….

When we say, surely God this or that, we sound like Naaman in the OT when God told him to was 7 times in the Jordan River to be healed. He wanted a more spectacular even than washing in the mere Jordan River, and especially 7 times with this trivial sounding command.
« Last Edit: Thu May 26, 2022 - 10:52:40 by Jaime »

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #33 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 12:39:18 »
Jarrod:

    The gift of the Holy Spirit occurred on the first Pentecost after Jesus' resurrection, when the Spirit was poured out upon the Twelve [see Acts 2].

Buff
Yes.

I think I might be missing the point you're making, though.  Not sure why you're saying this.

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Re: DOES THE WORD BAPTISM ALSO MEAN IMMERSE ?
« Reply #34 on: Thu May 26, 2022 - 12:49:09 »
A question for any and all of you, including Dan and his current study on baptism. (Not OT at all IMO)

Is baptism. ( the full submersion ) for man or is it for God?

Now, I do not mean that of a "salvation baptism , as is mentioned in mark 16:16, or another that some would argue was
in obedience once one comes to a truth faith in Jesus... but that where others see what is being done.

( Even the RCC and those Protestants who sprinkle it is never just the dedication of the baby to God, through the clergy sprinkler, but always with many viewing that the parents are giving that child into the hands of God  ... which is step one for those folks.)

Surely God knows within a heart if one has truly ( repented ) and has that .. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the LORD Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” mindset.

Then to whom is the visible baptism for?

Surly God knows who is firm in his beliefs and surly God knows that those who get Baptized without a deep seated knowledge of Him, do not and may never "know Him".

So, is it for example to those who are not God's yet? A visible proof that God uses to show others those that do believe?
Water baptism is an adoption ceremony.  It's a visible symbol of one's death to their past self, and their re-birth as part of a new family.  For those baptizing and witnessing the baptism, it is a visible acceptance of the person into their family.  For God, it is the fulfillment of His covenant with Abraham (and his seed!) to make him a "father of many nations."

Did that answer it?

Jarrod